WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:18.000 Okay, Sandy Markham, nice to meet you. First Doctor Who convention, I understand. Tell 00:18.000 --> 00:24.000 us a little bit about how you got involved with make-up at the BBC. What did you do before 00:24.000 --> 00:26.200 then? Well I was pretty young when I got involved. 00:26.200 --> 00:30.880 So I started at the BBC when I was just over 20 actually. So I went through their training 00:30.880 --> 00:35.240 school that they had then, three months training, then probation for two years, then make-up 00:35.240 --> 00:40.680 assistant, then senior make-up assistant and then finally make-up supervisor. I mean it 00:40.680 --> 00:45.200 was up to you if you applied for those promotions. I didn't apply straight away but in the end 00:45.200 --> 00:48.320 I did. So can you remember what the very first thing 00:48.320 --> 00:52.320 you worked on was? I honestly can't. I mean I think when you 00:52.320 --> 00:56.320 were a beginner you were given easy programs. You might go up and do tonight like current 00:56.320 --> 01:01.000 affairs with a thing to powder somebody's head if it was shiny or something. And then 01:01.000 --> 01:05.480 you would gradually be given more advanced things to do but there would always be a supervisor 01:05.480 --> 01:10.600 keeping an eye on you and allocating you certain make-ups that they thought you were capable 01:10.600 --> 01:14.140 of doing. And there were some of us that were very good at doing hair and some of us much 01:14.140 --> 01:19.840 better at make-up and I was never really a very good hair dresser. So make-up would be 01:19.840 --> 01:25.120 more what I would get to do. So in those days was it more of an experience 01:25.120 --> 01:29.760 thing that got you promoted through? Yeah, experience, yes. I mean I don't think 01:29.760 --> 01:34.160 you wouldn't apply to be a supervisor, you know, unless you'd been there about five years 01:34.160 --> 01:39.800 probably. And what about the particular Doctor Who's 01:39.800 --> 01:46.080 that you worked on? I mean there were so many during those early days. Are there any specific 01:46.080 --> 01:51.680 make-up sessions you remember? Anyone you remember being difficult to make up or work 01:51.680 --> 01:54.640 on? Well the person I usually had to... I always 01:54.640 --> 01:58.400 looked after Bill Hartnell because I was the senior person on the program so he always 01:58.400 --> 02:02.640 had to have the senior person on the program. But I was responsible for all the others so 02:02.640 --> 02:07.480 I had to keep an eye on them. And I suppose the ones that the more sort of, what do you 02:07.480 --> 02:12.000 call them, science fiction ones, were the more kind of, you know, like there wasn't 02:12.000 --> 02:17.520 anything to follow. We just had to make them up really as we went along. But I worked very 02:17.520 --> 02:21.280 closely with the costume supervisor so we would always talk together and she would do 02:21.280 --> 02:28.560 drawings and I would fill in extra bits. So I do remember the butterflies, the Minoptra 02:28.560 --> 02:33.080 and those ones which were really interesting to do. And as I was saying to someone earlier, 02:33.080 --> 02:38.400 I remember painting these eyeballs on ping pong balls and sticking them in people's mouths. 02:38.400 --> 02:44.600 It was weird, very uncomfortable for the actors. So you had first-hand experience of William 02:44.600 --> 02:48.720 Hartnell. How did you find him? Well I was pretty scared when I had to take 02:48.720 --> 02:53.840 him on because he'd been looked after by someone else, you know, a senior to me. And I think 02:53.840 --> 02:57.680 he'd got very attached to her because he liked things to be, you know, like things to be 02:57.680 --> 03:02.280 familiar and he liked to feel safe which is understandable. So it was a little bit, you 03:02.280 --> 03:05.960 know, tricky at the beginning where we had to kind of get to know each other. But he 03:05.960 --> 03:12.320 was fine. I mean he would be nervous and he would be touchy and he would be annoyed if 03:12.320 --> 03:15.800 things went wrong or if something upset him. But it was really because he was worried about 03:15.800 --> 03:22.240 forgetting his lines and it's a big responsibility to carry, to keep that going. When there were 03:22.240 --> 03:25.680 new people to work with all the time he had to deal with all these new characters that 03:25.680 --> 03:29.960 were coming along but keep his own character going. It was quite a big responsibility for 03:29.960 --> 03:36.000 him so, I mean, he was pretty sweet really. He gave me a nice present at the end and, 03:36.000 --> 03:40.720 you know, I got fond of him. But I never got close. He was never someone who would talk 03:40.720 --> 03:44.720 about private life or anything like that. I never, you know, didn't know more about 03:44.720 --> 03:47.960 him at the end than I did at the beginning of the few years. 03:47.960 --> 03:54.640 There's a bit of documentation which survives from the Dalek Master Plan and there's a couple 03:54.640 --> 04:01.640 of letters to and forth, various people, about you getting told off about Brian Count's beard. 04:01.640 --> 04:03.920 Do you remember anything about that? 04:03.920 --> 04:10.080 No, I don't remember anything. I must have erased that from my mind. What would I have 04:10.080 --> 04:13.600 been... I mean, one of the things we might get told off is if it showed, if it showed 04:13.600 --> 04:18.280 that it was, you know, if there was some lace or something that picked up. So that could 04:18.280 --> 04:20.680 have been that. I don't know. What was I being told off about? 04:20.680 --> 04:21.680 It was something along those... 04:21.680 --> 04:22.680 Along those... 04:22.680 --> 04:26.680 There was a difference between the film sequence that you pre-recorded and the studio. 04:26.680 --> 04:27.680 Oh, right. 04:27.680 --> 04:28.680 It looked a little bit different. 04:28.680 --> 04:33.760 Right, yes. Well, those things, you know, nobody's perfect and I must have got sort 04:33.760 --> 04:37.080 of, you know, wiped that out of my mind really. But those were always the things we were worried 04:37.080 --> 04:41.000 about and we were always worried about if Bill Hartnell's wig lace showed, you know, 04:41.000 --> 04:45.080 things and the light would sometimes catch things or if people sweated, you know, things 04:45.080 --> 04:49.960 would start coming off and those were always... We used to be sort of have different makeup 04:49.960 --> 04:53.840 people standing in corners with chamois leathers and things, you know, ready to sort of mop 04:53.840 --> 04:56.080 them when they went from place to place. 04:56.080 --> 05:01.000 Did you have photographs to work from for continuity reference? 05:01.000 --> 05:06.680 Probably. I mean, we didn't do a great deal of filming and I suppose... I can't remember 05:06.680 --> 05:12.120 using photographs much. I mean, we were given photographs afterwards. There may have been, 05:12.120 --> 05:17.240 I suppose, if there was something... I remember doing... I used to have to do a scar on Julian 05:17.240 --> 05:21.720 Glover. He was in the Crusades, I think, and I'm trying... I think I probably did have 05:21.720 --> 05:25.600 a photograph of that to make sure, you know, that I did get it the same every week. 05:25.600 --> 05:32.200 I mean, Julian Glover's quite well known nowadays as he was then. Are there any other significant 05:32.200 --> 05:35.800 names you can recall from working on him? 05:35.800 --> 05:40.280 Well, Mark Eden was quite well known then. I don't know what his... I don't hear of his 05:40.280 --> 05:46.480 name much. I mean, William... Bill Russell. I can't remember. There was... Mary Peach 05:46.480 --> 05:50.280 was quite a big actress in those days. I don't know that there's that many people who've 05:50.280 --> 05:57.000 survived who are still big names now, really. So I can't... I mean, a lot of people did 05:57.000 --> 06:01.840 come and go. I'm just trying... I can't immediately remember. You know, if I looked at photographs, 06:01.840 --> 06:05.920 I might remember, but I can't remember. People didn't stand out, really, because so many 06:05.920 --> 06:07.920 different people, you know, went through. 06:07.920 --> 06:13.680 I mean, there was loads of Doctor Who stories that you worked on throughout the years. What 06:13.680 --> 06:16.560 made you move on to other things from Doctor Who? 06:16.560 --> 06:21.040 That probably would have been allocation from above. You know, you sort of had to move off 06:21.040 --> 06:24.960 and give somebody else a turn, and I think you didn't get it forever. I can't remember 06:24.960 --> 06:30.040 a particular reason why I was moved off it, because I'm sure I really enjoyed it, because 06:30.040 --> 06:33.840 I really liked doing those character... you know, that character kind of work, much more 06:33.840 --> 06:40.280 than I liked doing the straight make-ups. But I imagine it was just like, okay, you 06:40.280 --> 06:43.880 know, you've done a good stint on it, now it's somebody else's turn. We didn't have 06:43.880 --> 06:44.880 much say in that, really. 06:44.880 --> 06:49.880 Now, you mentioned the Crusade. You worked with your sister in the Crusade. What can 06:49.880 --> 06:50.880 you tell us about that? 06:50.880 --> 06:56.200 Well, practically nothing, because she reminded me that she had been in this episode, and 06:56.200 --> 06:59.960 she says I actually put her wig on, which I am afraid to say I have absolutely no memory 06:59.960 --> 07:08.920 of at all, but I'll take her word for it. So I don't remember her. I do remember Julian. 07:08.920 --> 07:14.080 I can't even remember a lot about that story, I'm sorry to say. So not very helpful there. 07:14.080 --> 07:18.120 What other programmes did you work on other than Doctor Who? 07:18.120 --> 07:22.880 Oh, a very, very wide spectrum. Everything from the Black and White Minstrel Show to, 07:22.880 --> 07:28.920 you know, classic Sunday night serials, Dickens serials. I loved those. I think that was the 07:28.920 --> 07:34.240 last thing I did before I left, was I think it was Dombey and Son, because I love the 07:34.240 --> 07:39.000 stories, I love Dickens, so it was really nice to work on books that I usually knew, 07:39.000 --> 07:46.880 because my dad used to read them to us. Yeah, anything really from, as I say, Current Affairs, 07:46.880 --> 07:54.680 that ongoing soap, Compact. I don't know if you remember that. That wasn't one of my favourites. 07:54.680 --> 08:03.680 Period plays, you know, just anything really, with musicals. Yeah, sometimes you've got 08:03.680 --> 08:09.200 to work with a particular supervisor. Before I was a supervisor myself, then there would 08:09.200 --> 08:13.440 be others who might pick you because they got on with you, because they liked your work, 08:13.440 --> 08:17.920 something like that. So there were probably some that I worked with who did particular 08:17.920 --> 08:18.920 programmes. 08:18.920 --> 08:23.280 So you mentioned the Black and White Minstrel Show. Did you actually have to black up the 08:23.280 --> 08:24.280 actors? 08:24.280 --> 08:28.640 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and black and white and make the old, you know, little things 08:28.640 --> 08:33.480 around the eyes and the nose, yeah. And we had to do it in that really, really cramped 08:33.480 --> 08:37.440 make-up room at the Shepherd's Bush Empire. Tiny little rooms to sit in, and you used 08:37.440 --> 08:41.920 to have three, just three, you know, side by side, and three of us would be working 08:41.920 --> 08:47.320 away, black, black, black, white, white. And then these terrible wigs that we all used 08:47.320 --> 08:50.920 to hate, and we had to curl them up with the tongs, you know, if they started coming unraveling, 08:50.920 --> 08:55.840 we'd have to go and hop them up and curl them up, and then plop them on, and then they had 08:55.840 --> 08:57.840 to go off and do their songs. 08:57.840 --> 09:00.840 So how long were you at VBC altogether? 09:00.840 --> 09:01.840 Ten years. 09:01.840 --> 09:03.840 What did you do after that? 09:03.840 --> 09:07.840 Had a baby, and then I retrained in something completely different. 09:07.840 --> 09:10.840 Oh, okay. So what did you do in later life then? 09:10.840 --> 09:13.840 I became a psychotherapist. That's what I am now. 09:13.840 --> 09:16.840 Oh, fantastic. So you've been doing that for quite some time now? 09:16.840 --> 09:23.840 Mm-hmm. About 30 years. Had a bit of time, you know, having children, a couple of boys. 09:23.840 --> 09:25.840 That's quite a contrast, being a make-up artist. 09:25.840 --> 09:29.840 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think I really wanted to go back to that. I think ten years of it 09:29.840 --> 09:35.840 was enough. I think I had the best, you know, didn't, yeah. I didn't really feel it was 09:35.840 --> 09:39.840 the thing I most wanted to do in my life, and I had a chance to do it, which was great, 09:39.840 --> 09:41.840 and I enjoyed it. 09:41.840 --> 09:44.840 If there was a shortage of make-up artists, would you go back to doing that? 09:44.840 --> 09:49.840 No, never. No, it's too stressful. 09:49.840 --> 09:53.840 Okay, so have you got any hobbies or interests nowadays when you're not working? 09:53.840 --> 09:58.840 Oh, I've got lots of hobbies, yes. I love my garden, I love travelling, I like writing. 09:58.840 --> 10:03.840 Yeah, those sorts of things. Yes, I want to do now, I've got a bit more time, I want to 10:03.840 --> 10:08.840 do some more travelling, and I want to do some writing. That's what I most like. 10:08.840 --> 10:10.840 That's brilliant. Thank you very much, Sonia. 10:10.840 --> 10:30.840 Thank you.