WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:09.680 After two years on our screens, Doctor Who had become a television phenomena. 00:09.680 --> 00:14.960 It was regularly reaching an audience of 10 million viewers, and its most celebrated villains, 00:14.960 --> 00:19.740 the Daleks, had followed up their invasion of Earth with a rather more successful invasion 00:19.740 --> 00:21.880 of the nation's toy shops. 00:21.880 --> 00:25.560 But its third year would decide the show's long-term fate. 00:25.560 --> 00:30.720 Would it become a well-loved but largely forgotten piece of 60s ephemera, or a show that would 00:30.720 --> 00:36.200 still be going strong 50 years later? 00:36.200 --> 00:41.960 In early 1965, as the Doctor locked horns with the ominous Animus on Vortis, Doctor 00:41.960 --> 00:46.040 Who's first producer, Verity Lambert, decided to move on. 00:46.040 --> 00:50.080 Having made such a success of the show, she would be a tough act to follow. 00:50.080 --> 00:52.840 As would the show's script editor, Dennis Spooner. 00:52.840 --> 00:58.560 He was heading to ITC to write for The Baron with Dalek creator Terry Nation. 00:58.560 --> 01:02.920 Spooner's successor would be Donald Tosh, who'd helped set up Coronation Street in his 01:02.920 --> 01:06.440 time at Granada before moving to the BBC in 1963. 01:06.440 --> 01:12.480 Donald Wilson had invited me to join the BBC, and so I did. 01:12.480 --> 01:19.200 Having been told I would be doing classic serials, he asked me, and indeed told me, 01:19.200 --> 01:22.800 to do Compact, which was a twice-weekly serial. 01:22.800 --> 01:27.720 I did Compact for 18 months plus, and then felt it was time to move on. 01:27.720 --> 01:30.240 And he said, well, how about Doctor Who? 01:30.240 --> 01:35.640 Donald Wilson's chosen replacement for Verity Lambert was John Wiles, an experienced writer 01:35.640 --> 01:39.600 and script editor, but, as it turned out, a reluctant producer. 01:39.600 --> 01:41.400 He was South African. 01:41.400 --> 01:45.120 He, as it were, fled the apartheid regime. 01:45.120 --> 01:46.560 We got on terribly well. 01:46.560 --> 01:48.880 He was terribly easy to get on with. 01:48.880 --> 01:53.480 Both John Wiles and Donald Tosh came to the show determined to shake things up. 01:53.480 --> 02:00.040 He'd worked a lot with children and knew, really, a lot more about the psychology of 02:00.040 --> 02:05.560 children than the other people in the BBC, you know, and they mustn't be too frightened. 02:05.560 --> 02:09.420 And he said, absolute rubbish, they love being frightened. 02:09.420 --> 02:13.760 And so we really did, you know, begin to kind of turn the screws a little. 02:13.760 --> 02:17.640 We wanted to develop the programme and get it out of the somewhat childish rut we felt 02:17.640 --> 02:18.640 it was in. 02:18.640 --> 02:22.440 It was the boundaries we wanted to extend the most to push it a little bit more towards 02:22.440 --> 02:28.680 adult science fiction, so we could touch subjects that Verity and Dennis hadn't wanted to touch. 02:28.680 --> 02:33.200 But before he could take over as producer, John Wiles would have to trail Verity Lambert 02:33.200 --> 02:37.540 for a few months, during which time several stories would be commissioned for the show's 02:37.540 --> 02:40.600 next season, whether he liked them or not. 02:40.600 --> 02:46.800 In the meantime, William Eames delivered his scripts for Galaxy 4, unaware that a new companion, 02:46.800 --> 02:48.960 called Stephen Taylor, had been introduced. 02:48.960 --> 02:54.880 He would have had to adapt the script, which was written for Jackie Hill, to be Stephen. 02:54.880 --> 02:56.880 So I was playing a woman's part, basically. 02:56.880 --> 02:59.280 Well, that sounds reasonable enough to me. 02:59.280 --> 03:01.240 I was captured by these Amazon ladies. 03:01.240 --> 03:04.400 Actually, when I think about it, I could have made something of that, I suppose, but I didn't. 03:04.400 --> 03:06.880 Oh, we have a small number of men, as many as we need. 03:06.880 --> 03:08.120 The rest we kill. 03:08.120 --> 03:11.680 They consume valuable food and fulfil no particular function. 03:11.680 --> 03:16.880 It had these lovely things called jumblies, or chumblies, which trotted around the studio, 03:16.880 --> 03:19.080 being manoeuvred by very tiny people. 03:19.080 --> 03:21.540 I adored the jumblies. 03:21.540 --> 03:25.760 We had a whole cast of midgets and dwarfs. 03:25.760 --> 03:30.880 They had the most extraordinary life. 03:30.880 --> 03:37.600 Their world was a whole world of the little people, and they would be employed in a troupe 03:37.600 --> 03:39.600 to do pantomime and things like that. 03:39.600 --> 03:44.600 And they always had... the dwarfs and the midgets, I think they didn't like midget, 03:44.600 --> 03:51.080 the little people, always had to have separate dressing rooms because there were fights. 03:51.080 --> 03:52.800 And I said, what are the fights about? 03:52.800 --> 03:54.040 The fights were over the women. 03:54.040 --> 03:59.240 There were the dravins, who were supposed to be kind of frightfully sexy and splendid. 03:59.240 --> 04:03.600 And there were the rills, who were, because they were sort of wonderfully frightening, 04:03.600 --> 04:07.800 but of course were actually the goodies. 04:07.800 --> 04:12.440 The rills were these horrendous walrus-like things with huge tusks and tails like a manatee. 04:12.440 --> 04:16.040 I mean, nothing had ever been in Doctor Who quite so grotesquely ugly. 04:16.040 --> 04:22.840 The story itself was awfully thin, and we couldn't think what else to do with it. 04:22.840 --> 04:26.920 We had inherited it, and it had all been approved. 04:26.920 --> 04:28.960 And so we just kind of ran along with it. 04:28.960 --> 04:34.200 The last story credited to Verity Lambert would be Mission to the Unknown, a single 04:34.200 --> 04:39.760 episode not featuring any of the regular cast, but instead concentrating on the dastardly 04:39.760 --> 04:44.640 Daleks as a prelude to the forthcoming 12-part Dalek story. 04:44.640 --> 04:47.960 What 12-part Dalek story, I hear you ask? 04:47.960 --> 04:57.800 What we did not know was that Verity had already commissioned a 12-part Dalek. 04:57.800 --> 05:00.960 Johnny was furious, quite reasonably. 05:00.960 --> 05:06.480 I mean, we should have been told at least, but we were presented with it as a fait accompli. 05:06.480 --> 05:09.560 John Wiles had a similar reaction, considering it. 05:09.560 --> 05:13.080 An enormous rock in the middle of the sea, and one on which any boat we were going to 05:13.080 --> 05:15.040 run would be submerged. 05:15.040 --> 05:17.240 It was handed to me by Verity and Dennis. 05:17.240 --> 05:20.680 Donald and I virtually washed our hands of it, and it went on more or less without us 05:20.680 --> 05:25.000 in the hands of Dennis Spooner, who did most of the writing, and Douglas Camfield. 05:25.000 --> 05:28.960 I was nominally in charge, but I had absolutely no authority over it, since none of it was 05:28.960 --> 05:30.040 my concern. 05:30.040 --> 05:33.640 The main cast had to have a week out, as I recall. 05:33.640 --> 05:37.520 They all had been working flat out for months. 05:37.520 --> 05:44.240 So we decided, get Terry, write a trailer for the Dalek master plan. 05:44.240 --> 05:49.960 None of the regulars were there, but the Daleks were. 05:49.960 --> 05:53.240 But viewers would have to wait for their Dalek action. 05:53.240 --> 05:58.040 Before that would come the first story commissioned by John Wiles and Donald Tosh, an adventure 05:58.040 --> 06:01.400 set during the Trojan War called The Mythmakers. 06:01.400 --> 06:03.320 The Mythmakers I absolutely loved. 06:03.320 --> 06:04.880 We had a wonderful cast. 06:04.880 --> 06:08.280 We had Ivor Salter, Francis DeWolf. 06:08.280 --> 06:11.000 We also had as King Prime, Max Adrian. 06:11.000 --> 06:16.340 Max Adrian, one of the great actors that this country has produced. 06:16.340 --> 06:18.960 Not just a great actor, but a wonderful man. 06:18.960 --> 06:24.840 For the first three episodes, it's high farce, and then, in part four, everyone gets brutally 06:24.840 --> 06:25.840 massacred. 06:25.840 --> 06:30.200 It's a very enjoyable comedy where the doctors interplay with a DCC, something we all laugh 06:30.200 --> 06:31.200 at. 06:31.200 --> 06:34.120 That had all sorts of nice humorous edges to it. 06:34.120 --> 06:39.520 But then suddenly it all turns on a razor's edge, and suddenly everybody's killed, and 06:39.520 --> 06:41.080 it becomes extremely nasty. 06:41.080 --> 06:48.560 There's a strange mix in these stories of comedy and horror, often almost side by side. 06:48.560 --> 06:50.880 Kids love to laugh, and they love being frightened. 06:50.880 --> 06:54.320 You were quite happy to get the mood changes. 06:54.320 --> 06:57.680 It wasn't so much a really conscious decision. 06:57.680 --> 07:05.520 It was just that one was enjoying oneself, and this was sort of part of the mix. 07:05.520 --> 07:10.160 The Mythmakers would also see the shock departure of the Doctor's companion, Vicky. 07:10.160 --> 07:13.220 No one would be more shocked than the actress who played her. 07:13.220 --> 07:22.160 We went off on our six-week break, and when I came back, I expected to find the next four 07:22.160 --> 07:24.560 scripts waiting for me. 07:24.560 --> 07:27.240 And there weren't any scripts. 07:27.240 --> 07:35.880 The writing out of Vicky is one of the things I really regret about my time in Doctor Who, 07:35.880 --> 07:38.960 because it was unfortunately so badly handled. 07:38.960 --> 07:43.400 We came back from our summer break to discover that she was written out at the end of it. 07:43.400 --> 07:45.240 It was a heck of a shock to her as well. 07:45.240 --> 07:49.640 I understood that Maureen wanted to go. 07:49.640 --> 07:52.720 I really was desperate to leave. 07:52.720 --> 07:58.960 If they had offered me another contract, you know, for however many episodes, I might have 07:58.960 --> 08:06.200 been torn, because even 50 quid a week, which wasn't a great fortune even in those days, 08:06.200 --> 08:08.720 but it was a great fortune to me. 08:08.720 --> 08:17.720 Then we get to the first read-through, and Maureen arrives absolutely furious, because 08:17.720 --> 08:19.800 nobody had told her. 08:19.800 --> 08:23.160 Her agent hadn't told her, Johnny hadn't told her. 08:23.160 --> 08:27.280 And I suppose I was angry because I'd gone on holiday and I'd rather have been looking 08:27.280 --> 08:28.280 for work. 08:28.280 --> 08:29.280 She said, you know, you've written me out. 08:29.280 --> 08:34.960 I said, no, darling, I mean, well, yes, I have at the end, because I thought you wanted 08:34.960 --> 08:35.960 to go. 08:35.960 --> 08:37.960 I never said I wanted to go. 08:37.960 --> 08:42.400 I said, oh, my God, you know, this is now deeply, deeply embarrassing. 08:42.400 --> 08:45.200 Ah, yeah, so that was the end of me in Doctor Who. 08:45.200 --> 08:49.720 Because this was almost John Wiles' first decision as producer, it didn't exactly get 08:49.720 --> 08:52.640 his relationship with William Hartnell off to a good start. 08:52.640 --> 08:54.200 I know Bill was furious. 08:54.200 --> 08:55.920 He really didn't want that to happen. 08:55.920 --> 08:57.600 Bill, I think, was very upset. 08:57.600 --> 09:00.600 I mean, I can remember him saying to me, he said, oh, darling, this is outrageous, I'm 09:00.600 --> 09:01.600 not going to have this. 09:01.600 --> 09:07.080 I got on very well with Bill, but he and Johnny fought like cat and dog whenever they met. 09:07.080 --> 09:08.520 I know he didn't like John Wiles. 09:08.520 --> 09:10.840 I know that he fell out very badly with him. 09:10.840 --> 09:16.120 I was careful, but really, it was judo, it was all sorts of... 09:16.120 --> 09:19.120 There was an electric current between those two, always. 09:19.120 --> 09:20.600 I can remember Bill being quite... 09:20.600 --> 09:25.680 He could be quite acidic and vitriolic, and I can remember him saying, that bloody man, 09:25.680 --> 09:26.680 Wiles, he's done... 09:26.680 --> 09:27.680 And he was really... 09:27.680 --> 09:28.680 He really was giving it... 09:28.680 --> 09:30.440 I can't remember what it was about. 09:30.440 --> 09:37.080 So what used to happen, if there were things, trouble with Bill, I would have to deal with 09:37.080 --> 09:38.080 it. 09:38.080 --> 09:40.400 It was OK, fine, Donald, down you go to the rehearsal rooms. 09:40.400 --> 09:43.280 Have a quiet chat with Bill while he's having his lunch. 09:43.280 --> 09:49.360 If they couldn't get me, if I was doing something else in a way, then Johnny had to go and deal 09:49.360 --> 09:50.360 with it. 09:50.360 --> 09:52.900 Eventually, my directors devised a code for me. 09:52.900 --> 09:57.000 They would turn to their PA and say, you'd better phone the designer, which meant, get 09:57.000 --> 10:01.120 John down here quick, so that Bill wouldn't know I'd been summoned. 10:01.120 --> 10:06.000 To replace Maureen O'Brien, the production team introduced Adrienne Hill as Katerina, 10:06.000 --> 10:10.600 a handmaiden from ancient Troy, which seemed like a good idea at the time. 10:10.600 --> 10:15.640 I think it was assumed that Adrienne was going to be the continuation, she was going to be 10:15.640 --> 10:22.520 the next girl companion for some time, and they realised very quickly that they had a 10:22.520 --> 10:25.680 problem because Adrienne was from Troy. 10:25.680 --> 10:33.280 We suddenly realised the huge problems we would have in having somebody who came from 10:33.280 --> 10:39.200 that far back in history, everything will always have to be explained to her, and it 10:39.200 --> 10:41.680 was going to be a nightmare. 10:41.680 --> 10:44.400 You know, that's where she goes. 10:44.400 --> 10:48.960 After having been whipped up into a frenzy of excitement by Mission to the Unknown, many 10:48.960 --> 10:53.600 viewers could be forgiven for wondering where the Daleks had got to, but they wouldn't have 10:53.600 --> 10:58.520 much longer to wait, as the TARDIS touched down in the jungle of Kemble and the nightmare 10:58.520 --> 10:59.520 would begin. 10:59.520 --> 11:04.840 I was a bit disappointed because it meant putting everything to one side. 11:04.840 --> 11:09.200 Terry Nation was to write the first six and Dennis would, he had agreed that Dennis would 11:09.200 --> 11:11.080 write the second six. 11:11.080 --> 11:16.440 The problem was, Terry Nation and Dennis Spooner were both writing scripts for ITC at the same 11:16.440 --> 11:17.440 time. 11:17.440 --> 11:20.440 The lovely Mr Nation kept saying, yes, yes, I'm onto it, I'm onto it, you will have the 11:20.440 --> 11:31.000 script shortly, and about ten days before we were due to go filming, and Dougie Canty 11:31.000 --> 11:35.160 was jumping up and datting, where are the scripts? 11:35.160 --> 11:41.920 And so I rang his agent and she said, oh, but he's off to Los Angeles in about 48 hours 11:41.920 --> 11:42.920 time. 11:42.920 --> 11:48.400 I said, no he's not, not until he's delivered six scripts, please. 11:48.400 --> 11:55.160 And then she obviously got on to him, he rang me, and he said, I'll deliver them to you 11:55.160 --> 11:56.160 tonight. 11:56.160 --> 12:01.040 I'm actually catching a plane tonight, but on my way to the airport I will deliver all 12:01.040 --> 12:02.040 six scripts. 12:02.040 --> 12:03.800 I said, Terry, bless you, wonderful. 12:03.800 --> 12:07.440 The doorbell went and I went dashing down to the staircase, because I lived at the very 12:07.440 --> 12:09.080 top of the building. 12:09.080 --> 12:13.080 There was Terry, with a big grin on his face, saying, there you are, I'm going to thrust 12:13.080 --> 12:15.920 this brown envelope into my hands. 12:15.920 --> 12:20.800 And he was downstairs, into the taxi with a wave, and gone. 12:20.800 --> 12:25.920 Lasting for nearly three months, the Dalek's master plan would be the epic to end all epics. 12:25.920 --> 12:29.160 All the kids at school were talking about it. 12:29.160 --> 12:33.280 My best friend, for the Dalek master plan part one, it was his birthday and he had 40 12:33.280 --> 12:34.280 friends around his house. 12:34.280 --> 12:38.640 And the TV was there, and all 40 people are sitting around there, cross-legged, watching 12:38.640 --> 12:39.640 the show. 12:39.640 --> 12:42.400 I think it worked on lots of levels. 12:42.400 --> 12:45.920 There were nice historical bits in there, there was some good science fiction stuff 12:45.920 --> 12:50.360 in there, there was some very good Billy Hartnell stuff in there as well. 12:50.360 --> 12:56.520 And the other characters that appeared and came in, I think added a great deal to it. 12:56.520 --> 12:57.520 It did work well. 12:57.520 --> 13:01.760 And one of the great things about the Dalek's master plan is that the Daleks themselves, 13:01.760 --> 13:07.200 I think almost entirely in that story, are taken very seriously, unlike in The Chase. 13:07.200 --> 13:11.800 Something about the Dalek master plan just felt magical. 13:11.800 --> 13:16.960 The story also saw the introduction of space security agent Sarah Kingdom, as played by 13:16.960 --> 13:17.960 Jean Marsh. 13:17.960 --> 13:22.920 And to this day, no one is quite sure whether she counts as a companion or not. 13:22.920 --> 13:29.920 Jeannie Marsh was a hugely experienced actress, was already building up a big reputation, 13:29.920 --> 13:32.160 and was absolutely terrific on screen. 13:32.160 --> 13:34.480 Well, come on, I thought you said it was finished. 13:34.480 --> 13:37.080 She was instrumental in the story working. 13:37.080 --> 13:41.480 I don't think she would have been an ideal permanent companion. 13:41.480 --> 13:45.640 I think she was probably too strong as an actress. 13:45.640 --> 13:49.560 Another problem for the team was that the seventh episode of the Dalek's master plan 13:49.560 --> 13:51.360 was to be broadcast on Christmas Day. 13:51.360 --> 13:57.320 There was a special Christmas edition where we ended up with the Keystone Cops in Hollywood. 13:57.320 --> 13:59.360 I mean, bizarre. 13:59.360 --> 14:01.000 That kind of comic relief. 14:01.000 --> 14:06.280 The Christmas episode was stuck in the middle of a very serious dark story, with lots of 14:06.280 --> 14:08.880 references in it to the rest of the story. 14:08.880 --> 14:14.040 It was discussed at a fairly high level, because suddenly we realised, if we, on the Christmas 14:14.040 --> 14:18.920 Day, when everyone is sort of lying around, and we've got half an audience who never watched 14:18.920 --> 14:26.400 Doctor Who anyway, but the kids will want to see the regular thing, we could not let 14:26.400 --> 14:28.560 the story just flow on in its normal way. 14:28.560 --> 14:29.560 It was Christmas Day. 14:29.560 --> 14:32.840 I mean, they'd been having God knows what in the afternoon. 14:32.840 --> 14:38.160 Then there was the news, then there was us, then there was probably more jollification. 14:38.160 --> 14:40.360 It had to be a sort of one-off jokey episode. 14:40.360 --> 14:43.720 I mean, it was full of sort of pantomime jokes. 14:43.720 --> 14:45.720 I watched the Christmas episode on Christmas Day. 14:45.720 --> 14:51.160 Probably at the time I was a little irritated that the Daleks weren't in it, but still enjoying 14:51.160 --> 14:53.720 it for what it was, until the last moment. 14:53.720 --> 14:58.520 We so rarely get a chance to celebrate, but this time we must. 14:58.520 --> 14:59.520 Celebrate? 14:59.520 --> 15:00.520 Yes. 15:00.520 --> 15:01.520 It's Christmas. 15:01.520 --> 15:07.800 And then Bill Hartnell did the unforgivable, and turned and wished everybody a happy Christmas. 15:07.800 --> 15:12.200 Incidentally, a happy Christmas to all of you at home. 15:12.200 --> 15:17.880 Suddenly was becoming to the viewer like a personal chat. 15:17.880 --> 15:20.200 It suddenly wasn't a story in time and space. 15:20.200 --> 15:26.960 I mean, nowadays, you know, people have broken the fourth wall many times, but then it really 15:26.960 --> 15:28.240 wasn't done. 15:28.240 --> 15:32.500 As the story progressed, it became clear that the production schedule was beginning to take 15:32.500 --> 15:34.560 its toll on William Hartnell. 15:34.560 --> 15:37.600 Bill was past the zenith of his skills. 15:37.600 --> 15:40.360 He was a good actor, no question about it. 15:40.360 --> 15:43.960 He sort of developed into an old man. 15:43.960 --> 15:49.340 Off screen, it was strange because he, I mean, he wasn't that old. 15:49.340 --> 15:52.960 It may well be that he was physically not in the best of health and so could not learn 15:52.960 --> 15:53.960 lines. 15:53.960 --> 15:57.160 Consequently, studio days could be absolute purgatory for everybody. 15:57.160 --> 15:59.080 There were directors that he didn't get on with. 15:59.080 --> 16:01.980 There were actors who came in that he didn't get on with. 16:01.980 --> 16:03.440 It was my job, really. 16:03.440 --> 16:11.240 My role was to laugh Bill out of his five or six kind of tempers a day. 16:11.240 --> 16:12.440 And that's what I did. 16:12.440 --> 16:14.720 And I did it very happily all the time. 16:14.720 --> 16:17.720 He was a, I can't explain what he was like. 16:17.720 --> 16:23.320 He was a charming creature in spite of his irascibility and those terrible teeth, you 16:23.320 --> 16:28.000 know, that he used to bear when he was angry. 16:28.000 --> 16:29.680 He was very fond of me and I of him. 16:29.680 --> 16:33.880 He really took me under his wing and was very friendly and kind to me. 16:33.880 --> 16:36.440 I got on extremely well with Bill. 16:36.440 --> 16:44.480 And he said, when I was sent this script for Doctor Who, I decided this was my chance. 16:44.480 --> 16:50.680 I was going to make this mine and I do make it mine and I make this show mine. 16:50.680 --> 16:54.720 And that's why he insisted on everything being right. 16:54.720 --> 17:01.760 It was his, you know, it was his reward after a lifetime of slogging away at things he didn't 17:01.760 --> 17:05.520 respect that much, probably. 17:05.520 --> 17:10.320 And so you could forgive him an awful lot of the irascibility and the standing on principle 17:10.320 --> 17:14.720 and all that because it was so important to him. 17:14.720 --> 17:19.040 I wouldn't say he was on his way down as an actor, but he was on his way down from being 17:19.040 --> 17:22.180 able to do what he wanted to do. 17:22.180 --> 17:26.760 As a result, the burden of carrying the show would increasingly fall onto Peter Purvis' 17:26.760 --> 17:27.760 shoulders. 17:27.760 --> 17:30.520 I had a huge respect for Peter as an actor. 17:30.520 --> 17:35.440 He was absolutely solid as a rock, frequently at the last minute, because Bill would suddenly 17:35.440 --> 17:42.480 cut something and you'd think nobody is going to understand the next episode at all unless 17:42.480 --> 17:44.400 this line goes in. 17:44.400 --> 17:51.640 So one would slide down onto the floor and very quietly slip a note to Peter and say 17:51.640 --> 17:59.240 something like, or one which was written, for goodness sake, mention dun dun dun, whatever. 17:59.240 --> 18:00.240 He would. 18:00.240 --> 18:02.240 It would just suddenly kind of come out. 18:02.240 --> 18:05.480 It seemed fairly natural. 18:05.480 --> 18:11.000 We knew that, as it were, the writing was on the wall as far as Bill was concerned and 18:11.000 --> 18:16.480 why we were experimenting with ways to change him. 18:16.480 --> 18:19.080 You know, how do you do it? 18:19.080 --> 18:23.240 As the months had gone by, William Hartnell's relationship with producer John Waz had gone 18:23.240 --> 18:25.240 from bad to worse. 18:25.240 --> 18:29.440 One day I got a call from the studio to say that all the dresses had come out on strike. 18:29.440 --> 18:33.040 Now this was a cataclysmic start to a day in the studio where you depend on all your 18:33.040 --> 18:35.040 backup all the time. 18:35.040 --> 18:39.300 Bill had simply offended his dresser, who then complained, and so the entire staff had 18:39.300 --> 18:40.500 walked out. 18:40.500 --> 18:43.560 And this was on the one day you had to get an episode recorded. 18:43.560 --> 18:50.360 John, I can remember on one occasion going absolutely berserk because we'd collapsed 18:50.360 --> 18:51.640 in hysterics on the set. 18:51.640 --> 18:55.280 I think Gene Marsh and I and Billy Hartnell were all absolutely wrecked. 18:55.280 --> 18:57.360 Peter Butterworth was there at the same time. 18:57.360 --> 19:02.800 And John, I can remember, coming screaming out of the gallery saying, will you concentrate? 19:02.800 --> 19:07.520 A reluctant producer at the best of times, John Waz was now feeling the strain. 19:07.520 --> 19:12.520 They kept on saying things like, you've got to save this amount of money or lose that 19:12.520 --> 19:15.160 or do the other. 19:15.160 --> 19:21.760 And he felt hugely restricted because, you know, there is the budget, I mean, which was 19:21.760 --> 19:28.040 small enough anyway, and for it to be perpetually being mucked about with other people telling 19:28.040 --> 19:30.760 him what he could and couldn't do in it. 19:30.760 --> 19:32.720 He just felt, you know, life is too short. 19:32.720 --> 19:35.920 I've got better things to do with my life and I don't blame him. 19:35.920 --> 19:40.360 The long and stressful production of the Daleks' master plan, a story he'd never wanted to 19:40.360 --> 19:42.960 make, eventually proved too much. 19:42.960 --> 19:47.880 And at the end of 1965, John Waz decided enough was enough. 19:47.880 --> 19:53.600 Johnny, I think, took me out to lunch and he said, I'm packing it in. 19:53.600 --> 20:00.160 I've had it up to here because they'd been riding and riding and riding. 20:00.160 --> 20:02.440 And I said, you can't go. 20:02.440 --> 20:03.440 You can't. 20:03.440 --> 20:08.320 I said, no, because we're going to go down this path, we're going down that path, we're 20:08.320 --> 20:10.640 going to explore this. 20:10.640 --> 20:12.080 And he said, I know, I know. 20:12.080 --> 20:13.600 And he said, not with me. 20:13.600 --> 20:17.880 Waz would remain as producer long enough to hand over the reins to his successor and would 20:17.880 --> 20:20.720 see two more stories through to production. 20:20.720 --> 20:26.040 After such a bleak conclusion to the Daleks' master plan, it was time for some light relief, 20:26.040 --> 20:30.440 which would be nowhere to be found in the next story, The Massacre of St. Bartholomew's 20:30.440 --> 20:33.000 Eve, written by John Liccarotti. 20:33.000 --> 20:35.920 Well, according to the opening titles, at least. 20:35.920 --> 20:40.680 It was written ostensibly by John Liccarotti, but Donald Tosh didn't like the script and 20:40.680 --> 20:44.680 he chewed it around and moved it around and changed it. 20:44.680 --> 20:47.840 And virtually, the script is Donald Tosh's script. 20:47.840 --> 20:51.280 It was the third of the three Doctor Who's that I did, and writing it was a totally different 20:51.280 --> 20:53.360 experience and a very unhappy one. 20:53.360 --> 20:59.240 He suddenly, out of the blue, sent through this script about the Vikings, this story 20:59.240 --> 21:00.820 about the Vikings. 21:00.820 --> 21:05.720 We looked and we thought, no, we've sort of done the Vikings in the time meddler. 21:05.720 --> 21:08.980 We don't want to do it again, certainly not this quickly. 21:08.980 --> 21:15.960 And so one called John Liccarotti in and he said, well, you know, I've been commissioned 21:15.960 --> 21:20.760 to write, and we discovered he had been commissioned to write three, right back in the early, early 21:20.760 --> 21:25.280 days, to write three Doctor Who's, and he'd done two and never delivered the third. 21:25.280 --> 21:27.120 And this now was the third. 21:27.120 --> 21:33.600 I then said, well, OK, but look, do one on St. Bartholomew's massacre, because that's 21:33.600 --> 21:35.520 something we haven't done. 21:35.520 --> 21:42.040 And it has lots of wonderful potential to be on the black side. 21:42.040 --> 21:43.040 I hadn't wanted to do it. 21:43.040 --> 21:46.940 I'd wanted to do the Doctor helping Eric the Red to discover North America. 21:46.940 --> 21:50.240 But suddenly there was a switch in production teams and the script kept bouncing back to 21:50.240 --> 21:51.240 me. 21:51.240 --> 22:00.080 What he delivered was a sort of bad Hollywood version of somebody who's never set foot outside 22:00.080 --> 22:04.080 Wisconsin thinks might have happened. 22:04.080 --> 22:12.360 And I persuaded John that we would pay John Liccarotti off and I would actually, you know, 22:12.360 --> 22:14.880 do it for free, which I did. 22:14.880 --> 22:20.960 Out of kind of courtesy, I sent John the script, which he hated. 22:20.960 --> 22:24.040 I wanted to take my name off the credits, but my agent wouldn't let me. 22:24.040 --> 22:29.000 There was a terrible schism between the two of them to get that on the air. 22:29.000 --> 22:30.160 I was not aware of that. 22:30.160 --> 22:32.280 But of course, the massacre featured Stephen wonderfully. 22:32.280 --> 22:34.720 I mean, suddenly he comes back into his own. 22:34.720 --> 22:39.920 Because what had happened in the 12th Park downer is he kept being pushed on side. 22:39.920 --> 22:42.320 And one felt, well, you know, it's a little hard. 22:42.320 --> 22:44.960 You're supposed to be the kind of second lead. 22:44.960 --> 22:50.480 This story would see the Doctor and Stephen caught up in events in Paris in the year 1572, 22:50.480 --> 22:54.440 in which Catherine de Medici instigates religious genocide. 22:54.440 --> 22:58.540 An unusually adult and downbeat premise for a Doctor Who story. 22:58.540 --> 23:01.360 And it resulted in the show losing more than a quarter of its viewers. 23:01.360 --> 23:03.960 I think it was quite a serious piece in the end. 23:03.960 --> 23:07.000 It's beautifully written, very, very historically accurate. 23:07.000 --> 23:08.880 It was really classic drama. 23:08.880 --> 23:13.280 Fair amount of bits about French politics of the time. 23:13.280 --> 23:16.160 And it probably alienated a lot of kids at the time. 23:16.160 --> 23:19.520 Kids who just watched a Dalek story probably couldn't get into it. 23:19.520 --> 23:22.760 It's not even a sort of normal action adventure story, you know. 23:22.760 --> 23:25.520 It doesn't, you know, there are lots and lots of scenes of people talking. 23:25.520 --> 23:29.200 The children would possibly have been bored with all that sort of intellectual tosh. 23:29.200 --> 23:32.280 Sorry, Donald, no pun intended. 23:32.280 --> 23:37.920 And then at the same time, the adults who would like a good old historical drama set 23:37.920 --> 23:42.080 in Paris with the massacre of the Huguenots going on, wouldn't be watching it because 23:42.080 --> 23:43.160 it was Doctor Who. 23:43.160 --> 23:45.840 You had to give it the element that would snatch everybody's attention. 23:45.840 --> 23:50.280 And that was the doppelganger idea of William Hartnell. 23:50.280 --> 23:54.800 After the pressures of the Dalek story, William Hartnell had been given a week's holiday, 23:54.800 --> 24:00.400 and then returned, rested, to play not only the Doctor, but also the Abbot of Amoise. 24:00.400 --> 24:02.840 Bill suddenly fell. 24:02.840 --> 24:08.000 He had, he, one had taken him away and one had given him another part. 24:08.000 --> 24:09.000 Doctor! 24:09.000 --> 24:10.000 Silence! 24:10.000 --> 24:12.920 Who is this man? 24:12.920 --> 24:14.880 And why does he disturb my peace? 24:14.880 --> 24:15.880 We had no trouble. 24:15.880 --> 24:18.320 He sailed through that as the Abbot of Amoise. 24:18.320 --> 24:21.760 Absolutely beautiful, one of the best performances he gave. 24:21.760 --> 24:26.040 Bill's recuperation also meant he was able to handle some of the most powerful scenes 24:26.040 --> 24:31.240 of his era in the story's final episode, in which the Huguenots of Paris are brutally, 24:31.240 --> 24:34.200 well, you can guess what happens from the title. 24:34.200 --> 24:37.160 The long monologue was written specifically for Bill. 24:37.160 --> 24:41.740 They were all too impatient to get back to their own time. 24:41.740 --> 24:42.740 And he did it beautifully. 24:42.740 --> 24:47.940 What I love about all that early stuff about the Doctor's origins is that it always feels 24:47.940 --> 24:51.360 like a little door is being opened and then it's slammed shut. 24:51.360 --> 24:55.680 Perhaps I should go home, back to my own planet. 24:55.680 --> 24:59.360 But I can't. 24:59.360 --> 25:02.480 It is for me the crowning moment of what was and what didn't occur. 25:02.480 --> 25:06.640 You know, it all went terribly, terribly well. 25:06.640 --> 25:12.280 And it's something actually I am, I feel justly proud of. 25:12.280 --> 25:16.400 The closing moments would also see the introduction of a new companion, Dodo Chaplet. 25:16.400 --> 25:20.500 I think I'm beginning to enjoy this space travel, or whatever it is. 25:20.500 --> 25:21.500 She was nice and quirky. 25:21.500 --> 25:24.680 She was very different from anyone else that we'd had on the show. 25:24.680 --> 25:29.520 You know, she was sort of bubbly, cheeky, sassy little girl, which I think was probably 25:29.520 --> 25:31.600 very modern at the time. 25:31.600 --> 25:32.780 She settled in very quickly. 25:32.780 --> 25:34.980 She was a substitute for his granddaughter, Susan. 25:34.980 --> 25:37.240 He said so in the first meeting. 25:37.240 --> 25:40.160 And that's the kind of paternal relationship he developed with her. 25:40.160 --> 25:44.360 We had sort of lost that grandfatherly element. 25:44.360 --> 25:47.800 He was just becoming really a clodgety old man. 25:47.800 --> 25:54.560 And we hoped that by, as it were, giving him someone to be more even grandparental about, 25:54.560 --> 25:58.280 it might soften some of the clodgetiness. 25:58.280 --> 26:03.200 Dodo's debut story, The Ark, by Paul Erickson, was one of the first stories commissioned 26:03.200 --> 26:06.360 by John Wiles, and one close to his heart. 26:06.360 --> 26:09.020 The one about the spaceship on its way to another planet. 26:09.020 --> 26:11.920 That story was mine, at least from the conceptual point of view. 26:11.920 --> 26:15.720 I had this idea of an enormous ship that was so big you could get the whole of South London 26:15.720 --> 26:16.720 into it. 26:16.720 --> 26:21.160 You could drive cars, ride bicycles, the whole notion of forests floating in the air. 26:21.160 --> 26:23.520 Johnny could see all sorts of potential in it. 26:23.520 --> 26:27.760 I would have probably, if it had been totally up to me, I probably wouldn't have ever done 26:27.760 --> 26:28.760 it. 26:28.760 --> 26:32.600 But I knew Johnny loved it, and he'd gone along with me for things which I'm sure he 26:32.600 --> 26:36.560 would have normally kind of thought, Tom, are you sure we should be doing this? 26:36.560 --> 26:38.120 But he'd allowed me to go ahead. 26:38.120 --> 26:42.520 So this was his, so ahead we went with it. 26:42.520 --> 26:46.480 It does have the air of a kind of 30s science fiction film. 26:46.480 --> 26:47.840 It does look at things to come. 26:47.840 --> 26:52.200 It's, you know, for 1966, obviously like most do, it's hideously dated in terms of science 26:52.200 --> 26:55.720 fiction. 26:55.720 --> 27:02.920 Very nice director called Michael Imerson was actually fired in the gallery as the last 27:02.920 --> 27:05.280 episode was about to be recorded. 27:05.280 --> 27:09.400 I think it was partially because the arc was such a badly executed piece. 27:09.400 --> 27:11.440 I mean, it was not his fault. 27:11.440 --> 27:15.080 I think it showed in the design, the costume designs were awful. 27:15.080 --> 27:18.640 It just didn't work as a piece and it's a pity because it was a very good story. 27:18.640 --> 27:22.400 But immediately after that, suddenly we had a new producer and he was introduced to us. 27:22.400 --> 27:25.120 This is the new producer and I met Innes Lloyd. 27:25.120 --> 27:29.960 Like John Wiles before him, Innes Lloyd had no experience as a producer, but had worked 27:29.960 --> 27:31.560 as a director. 27:31.560 --> 27:36.560 Lloyd also shared his predecessor's enthusiasm, or lack of it, at the appointment. 27:36.560 --> 27:39.520 The BBC said to me, do you want to produce Doctor Who? 27:39.520 --> 27:40.880 To which I said, no, thank you very much. 27:40.880 --> 27:42.480 I commit to be a director. 27:42.480 --> 27:44.140 And anyway, I don't like science fiction. 27:44.140 --> 27:47.040 I felt I should probably carry on. 27:47.040 --> 27:55.840 And then I met Innes and Innes's idea for Doctor Who and mine were miles apart. 27:55.840 --> 28:01.680 I mean, he wanted to go down pure science fiction and absolutely total, you know, the 28:01.680 --> 28:04.760 whole thing becomes sort of mathematical formula. 28:04.760 --> 28:07.040 And so I said, well, I'm a terrible scientist. 28:07.040 --> 28:09.920 I think I should, you know, move on. 28:09.920 --> 28:17.120 I suppose the odd thing about Johnny Wiles as producer and me as editor is the fact that 28:17.120 --> 28:20.080 we did agree so much. 28:20.080 --> 28:24.800 I can't remember any, I don't think there was any major argument ever. 28:24.800 --> 28:29.480 Before deciding to leave, John Wiles and Donald Tosh had already laid plans for the show to 28:29.480 --> 28:31.760 continue without William Hartnell. 28:31.760 --> 28:36.800 The writing out of Bill we knew was going to have to happen because he just wasn't 28:36.800 --> 28:37.800 coping. 28:37.800 --> 28:41.560 So we had to write him out in the next story, The Celestial Toymaker. 28:41.560 --> 28:47.040 John Wiles' idea was that the Doctor would be rendered invisible, only to magically reappear 28:47.040 --> 28:48.480 played by a different actor. 28:48.480 --> 28:54.800 I mean, technically, how it was going to be done, I've no idea, but we would sort of 28:54.800 --> 28:57.400 buffer one into the other somehow. 28:57.400 --> 29:02.240 But as The Celestial Toymaker went into production, Innes Lloyd was already in the producer's 29:02.240 --> 29:07.040 chair and Gerry Davis had been appointed to replace Donald Tosh as script editor. 29:07.040 --> 29:13.160 He was full of ideas which matched up with what Innes wanted to do with the thing, which 29:13.160 --> 29:15.320 I thought was dead wrong for the programme. 29:15.320 --> 29:19.200 The Celestial Toymaker had been thought up by writer Brian Hales. 29:19.200 --> 29:23.560 The whole thing was going to be a real scare fest with jokes. 29:23.560 --> 29:27.720 Within a week he came back to us and said, I can't write this, I'm frightening myself, 29:27.720 --> 29:34.400 he said, I can't, I cannot do this, because it was to do with playing with people's minds. 29:34.400 --> 29:39.640 And so, in keeping with tradition of outgoing script editors, Donald Tosh was asked to write 29:39.640 --> 29:40.760 the story himself. 29:40.760 --> 29:47.000 I went away and really wrote it, and Johnny read it and loved it. 29:47.000 --> 29:56.400 Then I took my first holiday for two years while Gerry was moving himself in. 29:56.400 --> 30:01.800 One of Gerry Davis' first acts as script editor would be to scrap the Toymaker script and 30:01.800 --> 30:03.200 start all over again. 30:03.200 --> 30:07.360 The content was a sort of pseudo-smart-null-coward comedy which was wrong for the audience, but 30:07.360 --> 30:08.600 we had to salvage something. 30:08.600 --> 30:12.040 I had to sit down in the garden and dash out and act a day. 30:12.040 --> 30:16.200 The Toymaker character suggested toys, which suggested nursery, and I played around with 30:16.200 --> 30:17.680 something sinister on those lines. 30:17.680 --> 30:19.960 With more time I could have done a better job. 30:19.960 --> 30:25.520 I came back to find totally rewritten from top to bottom. 30:25.520 --> 30:30.480 Oh, you know, okay fine, they couldn't get hold of me. 30:30.480 --> 30:32.720 And I said, but you can't put my name on that. 30:32.720 --> 30:33.720 You've written it. 30:33.720 --> 30:38.160 The plan to replace William Hartnell was abandoned, but the Doctor would still be invisible for 30:38.160 --> 30:42.240 much of the story, giving the actor another well-deserved holiday. 30:42.240 --> 30:46.680 To have his character only being played by his hand was really quite clever. 30:46.680 --> 30:51.240 So he wasn't there, and that hand could play the game, the trilogic game. 30:51.240 --> 30:55.120 The whole story hinged upon Stephen and Dodo, Peter Pearce and Jackie Lane. 30:55.120 --> 30:56.680 Jackie and I had a lot of fun with that. 30:56.680 --> 30:58.960 We enjoyed it, because we were playing games. 30:58.960 --> 31:00.800 You're finding a route through a thing. 31:00.800 --> 31:03.640 If you step on a wrong thing, then it all explodes. 31:03.640 --> 31:04.640 That's it, end of story. 31:04.640 --> 31:07.720 So obviously it never happened, because we'd get through to the end of it. 31:07.720 --> 31:08.720 Good fun, though. 31:08.720 --> 31:09.720 It's make-believe. 31:09.720 --> 31:14.160 The new production team would have a battle on its hands from the outset, as the show's 31:14.160 --> 31:19.220 viewing figures had begun to slide, largely due to it being shown earlier in the evening 31:19.220 --> 31:21.760 against a new ITV talent show. 31:21.760 --> 31:25.480 You know, you're sat down on a Saturday night with your kids. 31:25.480 --> 31:30.240 You can watch the Walker Brothers or Cathy Kirby or something, or you can watch the Massacre. 31:30.240 --> 31:34.800 I think people are going to be heading towards the Walker Brothers, though of course the 31:34.800 --> 31:37.120 monoids in the arc have the Walker Brothers' hair. 31:37.120 --> 31:41.480 But far from acting as a discouragement to an uncertain producer, the challenges seemed 31:41.480 --> 31:43.640 to spur Innes Lloyd on. 31:43.640 --> 31:45.920 I discovered the fascination of Doctor Who. 31:45.920 --> 31:49.400 I found you could actually do with it anything you really wanted to do, and that was fun 31:49.400 --> 31:50.400 in drama terms. 31:50.400 --> 31:53.920 You could cover an enormously wide horizon, from cowboys to computers. 31:53.920 --> 31:58.240 But once again, it would be a few months before the full force of the new team's influences 31:58.240 --> 31:59.460 would be felt. 31:59.460 --> 32:04.480 The next serial was the last to be commissioned by the previous regime of Woz and Tosh, The 32:04.480 --> 32:06.800 Gunfighters by Donald Cotton. 32:06.800 --> 32:14.440 So fill up your glasses and join in the song. 32:14.440 --> 32:20.080 The law is right behind you and it won't take long. 32:20.080 --> 32:27.640 He knew a lot about the sort of tombstone and plantains and all of that. 32:27.640 --> 32:29.840 And it really is very seedy. 32:29.840 --> 32:37.520 And I said, I want all that, please. 32:37.520 --> 32:41.440 I had heard that Bill Hartnell wanted to do a Western. 32:41.440 --> 32:44.680 And of course it ended up being The Gunfighters. 32:44.680 --> 32:46.440 I hated that so much when we did it. 32:46.440 --> 32:47.720 I really did. 32:47.720 --> 32:52.400 But having watched it since, it's really rather a good piece. 32:52.400 --> 32:53.400 It's a very good story. 32:53.400 --> 32:54.400 Mr Webb. 32:54.400 --> 32:55.400 Oh, Mr Webb. 32:55.400 --> 32:58.040 I say, can you do that? 32:58.040 --> 32:59.040 No. 32:59.040 --> 33:01.080 And I wouldn't try it if I were you. 33:01.080 --> 33:02.760 I have no intention of trying anything. 33:02.760 --> 33:04.920 Only people keep giving me guns and I do wish they wouldn't. 33:04.920 --> 33:08.520 And we got a chance to dress up and wear the fancy clothes. 33:08.520 --> 33:10.800 I mean, Bill looked terrific, didn't he? 33:10.800 --> 33:12.920 I think I was just embarrassed by the song. 33:12.920 --> 33:15.440 I think that really coloured everything. 33:15.440 --> 33:18.920 With rings on their fingers and bells on their toes. 33:18.920 --> 33:22.800 The girls come to tombstone in their high silk hose. 33:22.800 --> 33:26.280 They'll dance on the tables or give you a tune. 33:26.280 --> 33:29.760 For whatever's in your wallet at the last chance. 33:29.760 --> 33:31.120 At your last chance. 33:31.120 --> 33:32.840 I don't know what they thought they were doing, 33:32.840 --> 33:37.000 because that song then kind of peppered the whole of the story. 33:37.000 --> 33:38.400 It didn't add anything. 33:38.400 --> 33:40.120 It held up the action. 33:40.120 --> 33:42.880 It wasn't the greatest song ever written. 33:42.880 --> 33:45.680 And it was... 33:45.680 --> 33:48.880 Although The Gunfighters didn't perform particularly badly 33:48.880 --> 33:51.600 in the ratings, the reaction from those who watched it 33:51.600 --> 33:53.400 was resoundingly negative, 33:53.400 --> 33:57.160 suggesting that historical stories might not be the way forward. 33:57.160 --> 33:59.120 The problem, I thought, was that we had too many 33:59.120 --> 34:01.280 very good costume dramas on the BBC, 34:01.280 --> 34:02.920 especially at that family viewing slot. 34:02.920 --> 34:05.760 So we were really stepping into somebody else's territory. 34:05.760 --> 34:07.200 I wanted the kind of adventure stories 34:07.200 --> 34:09.040 you could relate to in everyday life. 34:09.040 --> 34:11.920 And I was also looking for something as an alternative to the dialects. 34:11.920 --> 34:14.680 Instead, Gerry Davis told prospective writers 34:14.680 --> 34:17.240 to avoid humour and historical adventures 34:17.240 --> 34:19.800 and instead to concentrate on... 34:19.800 --> 34:22.080 ..escapist, futuristic science-fiction stories 34:22.080 --> 34:25.400 with a strong scientific concept and loads and loads of menace. 34:25.400 --> 34:29.680 Wiles and Tosh stuff is very deep and philosophical and thoughtful. 34:29.680 --> 34:32.120 That's not something you could accuse 34:32.120 --> 34:35.120 the Lloyd and Davis stuff of being. 34:35.120 --> 34:39.560 I actually find it a great shame that Donald Tosh and John Wiles 34:39.560 --> 34:41.040 didn't get a longer stint. 34:41.040 --> 34:43.000 In a way, the series dumbs down. 34:43.000 --> 34:44.560 I think, you know... 34:44.560 --> 34:48.000 But I don't think that's a problem. 34:48.000 --> 34:52.000 It becomes very much a show about monsters fighting a hero. 34:52.000 --> 34:53.720 And there's nothing wrong with that. 34:53.720 --> 34:57.360 As part of the fresh new look the production team wanted for the show, 34:57.360 --> 35:00.280 it was decided that the characters of Stephen and Dodo 35:00.280 --> 35:02.680 should be written out at the earliest opportunity. 35:02.680 --> 35:05.080 I was actually told by Ernest Lloyd 35:05.080 --> 35:07.080 that the next serial would be my last. 35:07.080 --> 35:09.200 It's a four-part one and that was going to be the end of it. 35:09.200 --> 35:11.280 They weren't renewing my contract. 35:11.280 --> 35:13.600 The first story to be commissioned by the new team 35:13.600 --> 35:16.880 would be Peter Purves' swan song, The Savages, 35:16.880 --> 35:19.600 by thriller writer Ian Stewart-Blagg, 35:19.600 --> 35:23.080 a science fiction parable about racial exploitation. 35:23.080 --> 35:25.080 The Savages was an excellent story to go out on. 35:25.080 --> 35:28.520 I was left as virtually king of a planet 35:28.520 --> 35:31.760 and was going to make everything wonderful 35:31.760 --> 35:34.800 for the tribe that I had managed to save. 35:34.800 --> 35:38.280 So, yeah, I'd had a good role in getting to the end of the piece 35:38.280 --> 35:41.200 and I decided to stay to make it all wonderful for them. 35:41.200 --> 35:43.200 I think that that should have been followed up. 35:43.200 --> 35:45.200 I think there was an option to go there. 35:45.200 --> 35:47.200 I don't think I ever picked up on it, 35:47.200 --> 35:49.200 but I think I should have become an absolute despot. 35:49.200 --> 35:51.400 Jackie Lane, however, could be forgiven 35:51.400 --> 35:53.400 for having less than happy memories 35:53.400 --> 35:55.400 about her departure from the show. 35:55.400 --> 35:57.400 She was told she would be leaving 35:57.400 --> 35:59.400 as her first story was still being broadcast. 35:59.400 --> 36:02.400 Gerry Davis later said that she was dropped because... 36:02.400 --> 36:04.400 The camera picked up that this was an older woman. 36:04.400 --> 36:07.400 Sure enough, the following story, The War Machines, 36:07.400 --> 36:11.400 saw Dodo departing off-screen halfway through episode two. 36:11.400 --> 36:13.400 Why couldn't they have gone about for five minutes 36:13.400 --> 36:15.400 on the street of Fitzroy Square 36:15.400 --> 36:17.400 and actually said, Doctor, I'm staying, I'm not coming, 36:17.400 --> 36:19.400 why not at least give her a farewell scene? 36:19.400 --> 36:21.400 And when I've counted up to five, 36:21.400 --> 36:23.400 you will be fast asleep. 36:23.400 --> 36:25.400 And when you wake again, 36:25.400 --> 36:28.400 you will forget all about this distressing incident. 36:28.400 --> 36:32.400 I think they kind of just wanted Rydan to bring in their new people. 36:32.400 --> 36:34.400 I think she had a very raw deal, Jackie Lane. 36:34.400 --> 36:36.400 I don't remember anything about it. 36:36.400 --> 36:38.400 I was so pleased to get the part and move in, 36:38.400 --> 36:41.400 and, you know, that I hardly noticed that she was gone 36:41.400 --> 36:44.400 and that nothing was said about where she went 36:44.400 --> 36:45.400 or why she didn't come back. 36:45.400 --> 36:47.400 I don't understand! 36:47.400 --> 36:49.400 To hell with that. I've got the role and here I am. 36:49.400 --> 36:50.400 That's what I felt. 36:50.400 --> 36:54.400 Replacing Stephen and Dodo were Michael Krays and Annika Wills 36:54.400 --> 36:56.400 as Ben and Polly, a cockney sailor 36:56.400 --> 37:00.400 and a miniskirt-y dolly bird plucked straight from the nightclubs 37:00.400 --> 37:02.400 of swinging 60s London. 37:02.400 --> 37:05.400 They wanted to bring it forward into the 60s 37:05.400 --> 37:08.400 and they wanted a sort of 60s contemporary couple 37:08.400 --> 37:12.400 rather than a granddaughter or a teacher. 37:12.400 --> 37:15.400 So there was definitely a move afoot in the BBC. 37:15.400 --> 37:19.400 And then I'm going to take them to the hottest night spot going 37:19.400 --> 37:22.400 and it's called the Inferno Club. 37:22.400 --> 37:25.400 The story epitomised the new contemporary, 37:25.400 --> 37:27.400 earthbound, science-based storytelling 37:27.400 --> 37:30.400 that Innes Lloyd and Gerry Davis wanted. 37:30.400 --> 37:32.400 I always preferred stories that dealt with people, 37:32.400 --> 37:34.400 yet at the same time having a scientific background, 37:34.400 --> 37:36.400 and that's why I got Kepeda involved. 37:36.400 --> 37:39.400 They had a scientific advisor, Kit Pedler, 37:39.400 --> 37:43.400 who was an old friend of Gerry's 37:43.400 --> 37:46.400 and was somehow attached to the programme. 37:46.400 --> 37:49.400 Kit Pedler was very important because he was a scientist, 37:49.400 --> 37:54.400 so he could bring it forward into well-based science. 37:54.400 --> 37:57.400 We are about to link this up with computers all over the world 37:57.400 --> 37:59.400 as a central intelligence. 37:59.400 --> 38:02.400 So that in a way what was then science fiction 38:02.400 --> 38:04.400 has now become science fact. 38:04.400 --> 38:07.400 Throw the history out the window and bring in pure science, 38:07.400 --> 38:09.400 but they never really did. 38:09.400 --> 38:11.400 He's a kind of mad scientist who's a rightful doctor, 38:11.400 --> 38:13.400 the way Christopher H. Pymead is later. 38:13.400 --> 38:15.400 You don't want somebody that's going to be 38:15.400 --> 38:17.400 completely scientifically accurate. 38:17.400 --> 38:19.400 It's going to kill everything stone dead. 38:19.400 --> 38:21.400 Like his predecessor, Innes Lloyd soon realised 38:21.400 --> 38:24.400 that William Hartner was becoming increasingly difficult 38:24.400 --> 38:26.400 for others to work with. 38:26.400 --> 38:29.400 Michael Krause and I actually, I have to say, 38:29.400 --> 38:33.400 we both really rather disliked Bill, and especially his politics. 38:33.400 --> 38:35.400 I mean, that was very hard for us. 38:35.400 --> 38:38.400 We stayed polite, we minded our P's and Q's, 38:38.400 --> 38:42.400 because he was the star of the show, but it wasn't pleasant. 38:42.400 --> 38:46.400 And I don't think we could have continued, actually, with Bill. 38:46.400 --> 38:49.400 Hartner was suffering from arteriosclerosis, 38:49.400 --> 38:51.400 resulting in vascular dementia, 38:51.400 --> 38:54.400 where emotional liability and short-term memory loss 38:54.400 --> 38:56.400 are amongst the symptoms. 38:56.400 --> 38:59.400 As a result, he was finding it increasingly difficult 38:59.400 --> 39:01.400 to remember lines and to cope with the rigours 39:01.400 --> 39:03.400 of a weekly television series. 39:03.400 --> 39:07.400 Innes protected Bill, you know, sort of took care of him 39:07.400 --> 39:08.400 and cosseted him. 39:08.400 --> 39:11.400 He must have understood that he wasn't well, actually, 39:11.400 --> 39:14.400 and so he was the sort of interim person, 39:14.400 --> 39:17.400 making sure that there weren't too many explosions around. 39:17.400 --> 39:21.400 He was a gent, you know, and he was doing his gentlemanly thing. 39:21.400 --> 39:24.400 Innes Lloyd enjoyed a much better relationship with William Hartner 39:24.400 --> 39:27.400 than his predecessor had, but quickly realised 39:27.400 --> 39:29.400 that there was no alternative but to suggest 39:29.400 --> 39:32.400 that Hartner leave the show to be replaced by a younger actor. 39:32.400 --> 39:34.400 By this time, William was no longer a young man. 39:34.400 --> 39:36.400 He'd done it solid for three or more years 39:36.400 --> 39:39.400 and I don't think he'd intended staying as long as he did. 39:39.400 --> 39:41.400 His wife, Heather, felt he needed a rest 39:41.400 --> 39:43.400 and we were left to decide whether to carry on or not. 39:43.400 --> 39:45.400 As godfather of the whole thing, 39:45.400 --> 39:47.400 it was Sidney Newman's wholehearted wish that we should, 39:47.400 --> 39:49.400 and so with Sean Sutton in on it as well, 39:49.400 --> 39:51.400 we set about looking for a new doctor. 39:51.400 --> 39:54.400 When informed of this decision in early July 1966, 39:54.400 --> 39:57.400 William Hartner was reportedly heartbroken. 39:57.400 --> 40:00.400 His condition meant another enforced break 40:00.400 --> 40:02.400 during filming of the next story, The Smugglers, 40:02.400 --> 40:05.400 for which the location shoot in Cornwall 40:05.400 --> 40:07.400 was the biggest yet mounted for Doctor Who. 40:07.400 --> 40:10.400 We always loved it when we could go off on location 40:10.400 --> 40:12.400 and it wasn't a quarry, you know, in Dorset. 40:12.400 --> 40:17.400 So off we went to Cornwall and what you see, with the clips we've got, 40:17.400 --> 40:19.400 you see this figure sort of disappearing, 40:19.400 --> 40:21.400 flapping cloak, and it's not Bill. 40:21.400 --> 40:24.400 So I think they worked their way round 40:24.400 --> 40:26.400 so that they didn't have to have him. 40:26.400 --> 40:28.400 In mid-July 1966, 40:28.400 --> 40:32.400 William Hartner reluctantly agreed to give up the role of Doctor Who. 40:32.400 --> 40:36.400 He would continue to make occasional television and stage appearances 40:36.400 --> 40:38.400 during the 1960s, 40:38.400 --> 40:42.400 but only in roles that were much less physically and mentally demanding. 40:42.400 --> 40:44.400 The following story, The Tenth Planet, 40:44.400 --> 40:48.400 would establish the formula for the show's next phase, 40:48.400 --> 40:52.400 a scientific research base in which a multinational crew 40:52.400 --> 40:54.400 is threatened by horrific alien monsters. 40:54.400 --> 40:57.400 We were very excited when we read the story, 40:57.400 --> 40:59.400 the fact we were going to meet the Cybermen. 40:59.400 --> 41:01.400 When we actually saw them, 41:01.400 --> 41:05.400 the costume department had these stalking faces 41:05.400 --> 41:07.400 and these strange mouths. 41:07.400 --> 41:12.400 We weren't really sure kind of how effective they were going to be. 41:12.400 --> 41:15.400 We laugh at those costumes, the surgical stalking and all that stuff, 41:15.400 --> 41:17.400 but they have visibly human hands. 41:17.400 --> 41:20.400 The creepiness of it comes over very well there. 41:20.400 --> 41:23.400 When you saw them on the screen, actually in black and white, of course, 41:23.400 --> 41:25.400 they were scary, they were very good. 41:25.400 --> 41:28.400 The Tenth Planet would prove to be a landmark story, 41:28.400 --> 41:31.400 not only as the first to feature the Cybermen, 41:31.400 --> 41:34.400 but also as the last to feature William Hartnell. 41:34.400 --> 41:36.400 Investors hope a body of mine is wearing a bit thin. 41:36.400 --> 41:39.400 Everybody knew weeks in advance that William Hartnell was leaving, 41:39.400 --> 41:42.400 the papers were plastered with it, but of course I didn't want it to happen. 41:42.400 --> 41:47.400 Innes came in to the read-through of the next story 41:47.400 --> 41:50.400 and said, we're having a new actor, 41:50.400 --> 41:54.400 and the door opened and in walked Patrick Troughton 41:54.400 --> 41:57.400 and everybody got on their feet and was cheering. 41:57.400 --> 41:59.400 It was an amazing moment, actually. 41:59.400 --> 42:04.400 And there he was in his little red cardi and his little Greek bag, ready to work. 42:04.400 --> 42:07.400 It's far from being all over. 42:07.400 --> 42:09.400 After enthralling viewers for three years, 42:09.400 --> 42:13.400 William Hartnell's Doctor faded away before their eyes 42:13.400 --> 42:15.400 and a new Doctor was born. 42:15.400 --> 42:18.400 Innes Lloyd and Gerry Davis had quickly established 42:18.400 --> 42:21.400 a formula of space adventures and monster invasions 42:21.400 --> 42:24.400 that continues in Doctor Who to this day 42:24.400 --> 42:27.400 and demonstrated that whenever the show was wearing a bit thin, 42:27.400 --> 42:30.400 its lead actor could be replaced. 42:30.400 --> 42:34.400 And yet, John Wiles and Donald Tosh had also laid the groundwork 42:34.400 --> 42:36.400 for the show's long-term survival, 42:36.400 --> 42:40.400 not just because they were the first to consider changing the lead actor, 42:40.400 --> 42:44.400 but because they realised the show was all about experimenting, 42:44.400 --> 42:47.400 about attempting to be different, about pushing back the boundaries 42:47.400 --> 42:51.400 and making it funnier, scarier and altogether stranger 42:51.400 --> 43:18.400 than it had ever been before. 43:21.400 --> 43:27.400 .