WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:21.600 The mighty empire of Rome was entering the final years of the Julio-Claudian dynasty. 00:21.600 --> 00:32.280 Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero. Five emperors who oversaw a time of 00:32.280 --> 00:37.560 great expansion for the Empire. In AD 64 the Roman Empire was larger than any 00:37.560 --> 00:41.640 empire had been previously. It stretched from Libya in the south to Britain in 00:41.640 --> 00:46.800 the north, from Spain in the west all the way down to Armenia in the east. So it's a 00:46.800 --> 00:52.240 very expansive empire. It was mind-blowing when you think the extents of it all, 00:52.240 --> 00:59.520 because it was so vast and we look at it now and we think how vast it is, but 00:59.520 --> 01:03.040 think how vast it must have been then when you think how long it took to get 01:03.040 --> 01:08.680 from point A to point B and just how far away from home these people were when 01:08.680 --> 01:15.920 they were civilizing us all. The Roman Empire was so innovative they made roads 01:15.920 --> 01:23.640 they made central heating, they created baths, they created a whole wonderful 01:23.640 --> 01:28.840 lifestyle. They were really very much before their time. 01:28.840 --> 01:32.480 So many positive things, however of course there were so many negative 01:32.480 --> 01:35.480 things too. I mean you know it didn't take anything to go and kill somebody. 01:35.480 --> 01:40.000 Rome itself had developed into a city the like of which the world had never 01:40.000 --> 01:44.280 seen before. The city of Rome in the first century AD is well over a million 01:44.280 --> 01:50.040 people and this makes it one of the largest cities in the Western world. No 01:50.040 --> 01:53.560 city in the Western world reached a million people until London in the 1840s. 01:53.560 --> 01:57.960 So what we have is the biggest city that the Mediterranean world had seen. The 01:57.960 --> 02:04.320 ruler of the Empire was the last of the Julio-Claudians, Nero, adopted son of 02:04.320 --> 02:10.000 Claudius. When he became Emperor in AD 54 he was only 17 years old, very 02:10.000 --> 02:13.000 inexperienced. The moment you start reading about him you realize that he 02:13.000 --> 02:16.680 wasn't far from a normal person when he began or at least that's the way that he 02:16.680 --> 02:20.880 he appeared and he was very good-looking and he would seem to be the great new 02:20.880 --> 02:25.840 hope. He was surrounded by a lot of domineering influential people, most 02:25.840 --> 02:31.160 significantly his mother who had been married to the previous Emperor Claudius. 02:31.280 --> 02:36.400 One of the kind of classic motifs of Nero that comes across very clearly in 02:36.400 --> 02:41.320 the Doctor Who episodes is that Rome under Nero becomes characterized by 02:41.320 --> 02:47.360 decadence and luxury and the decline of morals. The idea is that Nero embraced 02:47.360 --> 02:51.400 certainly Greek culture and brought elements of Greek culture, Greek drama 02:51.400 --> 02:57.000 and Greek material culture into Rome which many contemporaries such as a 02:57.000 --> 03:02.120 philosopher Seneca see as undermining Roman morality. 03:04.920 --> 03:09.760 We're still learning the lessons of Rome and when you think of the ability that is so well 03:09.760 --> 03:17.120 illustrated by someone like Nero to dare I say lose it in the course of 03:17.120 --> 03:20.440 government from being a perfectly reasonable character to an incredibly 03:20.440 --> 03:27.160 unreasonable rather evil character it's not a million miles away from some of 03:27.160 --> 03:33.320 the leaders one could point out in today's political arena so I think we're 03:33.320 --> 03:36.000 still learning. 03:36.000 --> 03:43.120 At the BBC exactly 1,900 years after the time of Nero it was decided to take a 03:43.120 --> 03:49.080 certain time traveler and his friends into a world of slave traders, gladiators 03:49.080 --> 03:54.720 and a crazed liar-playing tyrant. 03:55.760 --> 04:01.080 The idea of taking Doctor Who to Roman times had been discussed by producer 04:01.080 --> 04:08.240 Verity Lambert and her team as early as April 1964. Writer Dennis Spooner who had 04:08.240 --> 04:11.680 just written a story about the French Revolution was commissioned to write a 04:11.680 --> 04:17.480 four-part Roman serial in August. I remember Dennis as a lovely person he 04:17.480 --> 04:27.000 was a really funny man enjoyed his work had a lovely approach to life in the 04:27.000 --> 04:31.840 threshold house where we lived on Shepherds Bush Green as part of the BBC 04:31.840 --> 04:39.280 and he'd walk up and down the passage and drop into our office and make amusing 04:39.280 --> 04:44.920 remarks and go away again and one just loved his work when it came in. Dennis 04:44.920 --> 04:55.360 who was a newcomer really to us he created something that was comic that 04:55.360 --> 05:02.280 was slight it was just more than usually humorous and some of the dialogue I 05:02.280 --> 05:07.960 think in the scenes between all of us was so much more easy so much more 05:07.960 --> 05:12.600 natural. You never told us you were going away. Oh well I don't know that I was 05:12.600 --> 05:16.600 under any obligation to report my movements to you Chesterfield. Chester 05:16.600 --> 05:22.080 Tons. Oh Barbara's calling you. It was nice to play it was nice to act. 05:22.080 --> 05:29.120 Dearest you were on your way to see. I'd always watched Doctor Who I'd I loved it 05:29.120 --> 05:33.000 I thought it was superb and this particular Doctor Who was very different 05:33.000 --> 05:40.240 in as much as it it used comedy a great deal almost like a Fado farce. 05:43.360 --> 05:49.280 Berity had said to Dennis I think she'd recognized in Dennis as he was always 05:49.280 --> 05:56.440 making jokes and gags and things he was a funny man so she said to him bring it 05:56.440 --> 06:01.720 into the script Dennis you know let's let's have a bit of fun with it. 06:01.720 --> 06:08.040 Now young woman surely you wouldn't refuse me Claudius Nero a teeny weeny kiss. 06:08.040 --> 06:12.080 The production team at that time they were riding the crest of a wave it was 06:12.080 --> 06:15.840 almost as though they could do no wrong. There was always a certain amount of 06:15.840 --> 06:19.360 comedy in Doctor Who even before that maybe it becomes a bit more explicit with 06:19.360 --> 06:23.360 with the Romans their entire scenes which are purely there for comedy value. 06:23.360 --> 06:31.680 Oh dear darling. Hello. Enjoying yourself dearest? It was great fun to do but I know it's not 06:31.680 --> 06:35.520 something they did a great deal of. I actually think looking back at it now 06:35.520 --> 06:39.720 it's a bit like Shrek is now not as rude because we couldn't be as rude as in 06:39.720 --> 06:44.160 those days as they can now but still had that sort of slightly over-the-top comic 06:44.160 --> 06:49.800 touch. I wanted to have a word with you Maximus but it can wait Maximus it can 06:49.800 --> 06:54.760 wait. I know there are always complaints when if a show does a comedy 06:54.760 --> 06:58.240 episode but it's you know you need that you need a bit you need some light 06:58.240 --> 07:01.280 relief now and again and you need you need to have a laugh otherwise the show 07:01.280 --> 07:07.160 is gonna be miserable. No ice I'm afraid. There's some in the fridge. There's lots of comedy when 07:07.160 --> 07:09.680 you know Barbara in the villa and so forth particularly with that fridge 07:09.680 --> 07:16.560 which is actually quite funny but that arises from character and you can imagine 07:16.560 --> 07:21.240 these two characters sort of saying that that's totally within character. The bit 07:21.240 --> 07:25.040 where they kept on in the third episode where Neera kept chasing 07:25.040 --> 07:30.800 Barbara and in one door and out the other like a farce and in fact keeping missing 07:30.800 --> 07:35.600 the characters. Oh dear you've missed them. It's quite interesting because I 07:35.600 --> 07:39.520 think as a young person you would say oh you've missed them oh no and you'd have 07:39.520 --> 07:46.440 to be quite involved in it. I think the mood of the piece forbade you to you 07:46.440 --> 07:52.120 know really sort of make it very serious. You'll have a chance of fighting for your freedom. 07:52.120 --> 07:57.800 A chance? How? By putting on a good show in the arena and hoping Neera is in a 07:57.800 --> 08:02.840 benevolent mood. At the end of one of the episodes I said we'll be thrown to 08:02.840 --> 08:09.320 the Coliseum into the Coliseum to fight and I think Ian says fight fight 08:09.320 --> 08:16.840 who? And then there's a... and cuts immediately to sort of MGM lion going 08:16.840 --> 08:24.360 rrrrrrr. That could be quite funny when you are doing it in the studio so perhaps that 08:24.360 --> 08:30.920 was not taken as seriously as it might be. The comedic elements of the script were 08:30.920 --> 08:38.960 particularly welcomed by William Hartnell. William Hartnell was very aware that he 08:38.960 --> 08:42.760 wanted Doctor Who to be for the young people for the children particularly and 08:42.760 --> 08:48.720 I once got a very nice letter from William Hartnell where he said that part of the reason he 08:48.720 --> 08:53.120 left was he didn't like some of the direction that the program was going in 08:53.120 --> 08:58.840 and so this program The Romans although it had its sort of very strong scenes 08:58.840 --> 09:04.600 there was also the humor bits to contrast with that. He began in farce Bill 09:04.600 --> 09:10.960 he told me and he loved it. It was a strange because in a sense his career 09:10.960 --> 09:16.760 never allowed him to develop that side of him you know he was always from 09:16.760 --> 09:22.440 Brighton Rock onwards you know he was a rather sinister character. 09:22.440 --> 09:28.760 The answer is of course is not to be caught playing it. 09:28.760 --> 09:53.760 If he dried on set of course in those days you couldn't stop the tape immediately but he had a technique when he dried and he used to go what what what and so whoever was on with him you know tended to cover that's what actors do you know with getting him back on the right track again. 09:53.760 --> 10:02.560 But of course with me playing a deaf mute it was only what what you know I couldn't do anything. 10:02.560 --> 10:11.080 So he was stymied in that way except that he didn't have very I think when I came to attack him he said oh what's this what's going on. 10:11.080 --> 10:22.760 You know and all that went on. 10:22.760 --> 10:29.760 At the center of the comedy particularly in the third episode was the Emperor Nero played by Derek Francis. 10:29.760 --> 10:40.760 One thing that the Doctor Who depiction of Nero does which perhaps you don't see in previous depictions of Nero is the introducing element of farcical humor into the way Nero acts and behaves. 10:40.760 --> 10:51.560 Derek Francis is the larger in life decadent loud character who a little bit like Benny Hill is chasing the female characters around. 10:51.560 --> 10:53.360 I've been waiting for you. 10:53.360 --> 10:58.560 He was of course very well known as a character actor. 10:58.560 --> 11:00.960 It was a good catch to get Derek. 11:00.960 --> 11:09.560 He was always on television he did films and so on but he was extremely kind and very patient. 11:09.560 --> 11:17.560 He was well known for comedy timing and I think in the Romans you can see the comedy that he grew up with. 11:17.560 --> 11:19.960 I have a surprise for you. 11:19.960 --> 11:21.560 Guess what it is. 11:21.560 --> 11:23.160 Well now let me think. 11:23.160 --> 11:26.560 You want me to play in the arena. 11:26.560 --> 11:27.560 You guessed. 11:27.560 --> 11:47.560 The one thing that I like about Derek Francis' portrayal is the kind of juxtaposition of this farcical humor with a darker side because what we see is Nero is involved in this court which deals with slaves, which deals with gladiators, which deals with intrigues and poisonings. 11:47.560 --> 11:52.960 The comedy death really is when he passes the poison goblet across. 11:52.960 --> 11:54.560 She's a Nero, don't drink. 11:54.560 --> 11:55.560 I'm not. 11:55.560 --> 11:58.560 I have every reason to believe that drink is poison. 11:58.560 --> 12:07.560 There's poison glasses and they're switching them around and then I was laughing away and then he calls a slave over and makes him drink it and he dies. 12:07.560 --> 12:17.560 And I thought that's not funny, that's really not funny at all and it was just at that point you kind of think if they weren't playing this for comedy this would be really, really horrific. 12:17.560 --> 12:19.560 Give me your sword. 12:29.560 --> 12:31.560 He didn't fight hard enough. 12:31.560 --> 12:36.560 Derek Francis' version of Nero owes much to previous screen interpretations of the Emperor. 12:36.560 --> 12:45.560 That of Charles Lawton in 1932 and most famously Peter Ustinov in the 1951 movie Quo Vadis. 12:45.560 --> 13:09.560 I suppose the first time anybody really got a kind of mainstream glimpse of Nero in modern popular culture was Mervyn Leroy's Quo Vadis in 1951 where you have famously Peter Ustinov playing the overweight, decadent, slightly mad, slightly camp Emperor. 13:09.560 --> 13:22.560 Nero as this kind of decadent Emperor surrounded by all these material luxuries and goods is symptomatic of kind of 1950s consumerism in American culture and that was the one thing that struck me. 13:22.560 --> 13:29.560 In the 1970s the Nero of the BBC TV series I, Claudius was brought vividly to life by Christopher Biggins. 13:29.560 --> 13:41.560 I, Claudius was made in the days when the halcyon days of the BBC when the BBC had the most incredible costume department, the most incredible wig department, the most incredible props. 13:41.560 --> 13:46.560 So all those things which sadly no longer exist. I mean I was dressed as Nero in raw silk. 13:46.560 --> 13:50.560 Raw silk undergarments, fantastic flowing robes. 13:50.560 --> 13:55.560 Every day fresh flowers were woven into my own hair. 13:55.560 --> 13:59.560 I mean it was extraordinary. I mean I really did feel like an Emperor. 13:59.560 --> 14:08.560 Christopher Biggins, very young Christopher Biggins captures very nicely the influence and the manipulation that his mother Agrippina wields over him. 14:08.560 --> 14:27.560 Very memorable scene where Nero sets light to a piece of paper and it goes up in flames and Nero sort of stares longingly at the flames and goes what a beautiful thing a flame is. Of course foreshadowing the great fire of Rome that we get depicted in the Doctor Who series. 14:27.560 --> 14:32.560 Come Octavia, let's go and find your brother. Perhaps we can pacify him. 14:32.560 --> 14:38.560 You really had to be rich and very, very famous and very high up to succeed. 14:38.560 --> 14:45.560 And of course the richer and the more high up and the more influential you were, the more difficult it was because you were murdered. 14:45.560 --> 14:50.560 I mean you know we got rid of Claudius and someone got rid of me and someone got rid of John Hurt. 14:50.560 --> 14:55.560 I mean there were backstabbing all the way round you know so you had to be on your toes. 14:55.560 --> 15:01.560 But oh God it must have been wonderful. 15:01.560 --> 15:09.560 And in the 1980s, in a departure from the previous depictions, Nero appeared on TV screens in the dashing form of Anthony Andrews. 15:09.560 --> 15:22.560 In the 1980s we also have of course Anthony Andrews playing a decadent but relatively attractive characterization of Nero in the series A.D. Anno Domini. 15:22.560 --> 15:33.560 This role for me particularly was a great honor because if you look at A.D. as a mini-series which was quite an epic Italian-American adventure 15:33.560 --> 15:45.560 where all the sets had been built in, the whole forum was built in all of its glorious detail in Tunisia. 15:45.560 --> 16:00.560 He's an extraordinary package in every way and the attraction was in the amount of distance one had to cover in the arc from the beginning to the grisly end. 16:00.560 --> 16:08.560 So it was a gorgeous opportunity, made irresistible of course by some very attractive casting opposite me. 16:08.560 --> 16:17.560 Brilliant! You are a genius, a genius! I will make you rich, rich! 16:17.560 --> 16:27.560 Although Doctor Who's initial brief had been for the historical stories to in some way educate the younger viewers, the factual accuracy had become somewhat questionable. 16:27.560 --> 16:33.560 Where the program originally started, the idea was to have the future and the planets and the past. 16:33.560 --> 16:39.560 To go into history and do the educational kind of things and teach children about Marco Polo or the Crusades and these type of things. 16:39.560 --> 16:46.560 They wanted it to be fairly historically accurate but not too historically accurate that it spoilt the story. 16:46.560 --> 16:49.560 And I think that as a lot of people would say, the story comes first. 16:49.560 --> 16:53.560 So to what extent did the Romans adhere to documented history? 16:53.560 --> 17:00.560 Doctor Who's depiction of Rome was accurate in many ways. The people behind the scenes had certainly done their research. 17:00.560 --> 17:09.560 The props and the setting were accurate. The various themes of slavery, gladiatorial combat, decadence, depravity. 17:09.560 --> 17:14.560 They were very prominent in the series in a way that's very credible. 17:14.560 --> 17:16.560 Silence! 17:16.560 --> 17:25.560 One inaccuracy was the banquet scene where in fact you have all the characters in the Imperial court sitting around tables as we do eating their dinner. 17:25.560 --> 17:35.560 Whereas we know in Roman banquets that what they did was they reclined on big sofas and they never ate while they were sitting up. 17:35.560 --> 17:45.560 That was simply because we could not get all the people we needed in that scene in the studio space if they were lying out on chaises. 17:45.560 --> 17:54.560 It was explicable purely by that. I wasn't terribly happy about it from a historical point of view. 17:54.560 --> 17:57.560 But that's what had to happen. 17:57.560 --> 18:07.560 Designer Raymond Cusick had the task of recreating the greatest city of ancient times on a design budget of just £450 per episode. 18:07.560 --> 18:13.560 Doctor Who and the Romans was the first historical story I did. The only one I did. 18:13.560 --> 18:21.560 Rome was mostly done with a few flats and a lot of drapes and solid props for furniture. 18:21.560 --> 18:27.560 Luckily the BBC had at that time a vast collection of stock scenery. 18:27.560 --> 18:34.560 So it meant that your actual building of new scenery was kept to a minimum. 18:34.560 --> 18:37.560 Luckily, because I couldn't afford to build too much. 18:37.560 --> 18:39.560 It was very like a stage play. 18:39.560 --> 18:45.560 But of course again in these days television was seen as theatre in your living room. 18:45.560 --> 18:48.560 Armchair theatre. That's what it was about. 18:48.560 --> 18:53.560 We were used to the conventions of that being like a stage play. 18:53.560 --> 18:57.560 The sets were often a lot better than some of the sets that would be used in a theatre. 18:57.560 --> 19:00.560 I'm sure he kept running up and down the same corridor. 19:00.560 --> 19:02.560 I think that's something I remember. 19:02.560 --> 19:06.560 And suddenly appearing from around corners and different corners to make it look like a different corridor. 19:06.560 --> 19:13.560 He managed to make the corridors double ended so that I was able to shoot first one way and have someone coming in from the left. 19:13.560 --> 19:16.560 And then the other way and have them coming from the other direction. 19:16.560 --> 19:21.560 Made some of our chases around corridors much longer than they might have been. 19:21.560 --> 19:27.560 You never really kind of think it's just two sets, it's three sets and a bit of a corridor, like 20 feet of a corridor. 19:27.560 --> 19:30.560 It never really occurs to you because you just get caught up in the story. 19:33.560 --> 19:40.560 The same bush kept coming into shot when we were out of the city, on the way to the city. 19:40.560 --> 19:45.560 I mean once or twice it was meant to be the same bush when the chap was found dead in the bushes. 19:45.560 --> 19:48.560 But sometimes it wasn't meant to be. 19:53.560 --> 19:56.560 That's better my dear, now they really are fighting for their lives. 19:56.560 --> 20:00.560 In an effort to bring some authenticity to the program's action sequences, 20:00.560 --> 20:05.560 Christopher Barry brought on board two experienced fight arrangers. 20:05.560 --> 20:11.560 Peter Diamond's already impressive CV included from Russia with Love and Carry on Cleo. 20:11.560 --> 20:16.560 And he would go on to perform stunts in Star Wars and Raiders of the Lost Ark among many others. 20:16.560 --> 20:24.560 I first met Peter Diamond in my Ealing studio days in a film called The Love Lottery with David Niven. 20:24.560 --> 20:31.560 And he had a few lines as well and I'd seen, worked with him since then on other things. 20:31.560 --> 20:38.560 And I thought that for the amount he had to do in this, he'd get away with it and I think he did. 20:38.560 --> 20:41.560 Well, here we are Ian, Rome, now what? 20:41.560 --> 20:47.560 Peter was very good, I mean he really could in a few minutes do the fights for you. 20:47.560 --> 20:50.560 And we didn't have to spend hours, you know, rehearsing and everything. 20:50.560 --> 20:54.560 Just what was easy, what was good and what could be done in the time. 20:54.560 --> 21:00.560 Because fights, as one knows from today, you know, exist entirely on cuts. 21:00.560 --> 21:03.560 And cuts were very expensive in those days. 21:03.560 --> 21:07.560 And so we had about three cuts per fight. 21:07.560 --> 21:13.560 So you didn't see the result of the blow or the delivery of the blow. 21:13.560 --> 21:15.560 You just saw a general sort of feeling. 21:15.560 --> 21:21.560 It was very difficult for the cameras to make the fights look more brutal. 21:21.560 --> 21:26.560 Barry Jackson brought his skills as a tumbler and fight arranger to the part of Ascaris. 21:26.560 --> 21:31.560 I was an actor, but actors have to supplement their income, you know, when you're starting. 21:31.560 --> 21:37.560 So I started to think I've got two hats really. 21:37.560 --> 21:42.560 Jack Barry, who was the fight arranger or the tumbler, and Barry Jackson. 21:42.560 --> 21:45.560 If I win, I'll make it quick for you. 21:45.560 --> 21:50.560 Peter Diamond, I think he'd originally taught me when I was at drama school in 1954. 21:50.560 --> 21:56.560 And he probably had suggested me for this part since it required somebody to be gentle with the doctor. 21:56.560 --> 22:01.560 I remember going for him with a gladius, the little sword, 22:01.560 --> 22:06.560 and waiting for about four minutes while he turned around with his lyre. 22:06.560 --> 22:13.560 So I'm endlessly going, ah, ah, ah, ah, hurry up, you know, before he turns around. 22:16.560 --> 22:18.560 They broke something over my head at one point. 22:18.560 --> 22:23.560 We used to use sugar glass for that, or sometimes wax if it was a bottle. 22:23.560 --> 22:25.560 But it seemed to go fine. 22:25.560 --> 22:29.560 I mean, I just threw myself around, made it look as if... 22:29.560 --> 22:31.560 I don't think it's a terribly good fight. 22:37.560 --> 22:44.560 Barry I got to know quite well, and he told me that his surname was really Barry, 22:44.560 --> 22:48.560 and that we were probably therefore somewhere distantly related. 22:48.560 --> 22:50.560 That sort of gave us a bit of a bond. 22:50.560 --> 22:55.560 It was sad giving him a part, and unfortunately he didn't speak, you know, 22:55.560 --> 22:59.560 he made noises because he'd had his tongue cut out, poor chap. 22:59.560 --> 23:03.560 You fool! I went to where the body should have been, and there he was alive. 23:03.560 --> 23:08.560 During that period as Jack Barry, I had a gladiatorial act. 23:08.560 --> 23:13.560 Very hairy stuff, you know, sharpened spears and swords 23:13.560 --> 23:17.560 and people in the audience trying to avoid sparks and things like that. 23:17.560 --> 23:23.560 But it's quite interesting in a sense that it was a Roman character I played. 23:23.560 --> 23:27.560 We were in the middle of this fight, crowds of people outside, 23:27.560 --> 23:32.560 and he has a belt for me to kill him at the end, hitting him really hard, 23:32.560 --> 23:38.560 and it's reinforced with steel at the end, but it slipped just as I hit him. 23:38.560 --> 23:42.560 And this was the first show, we had another show to do. 23:42.560 --> 23:47.560 I cut him through to this hip bone with this gladiator, you know, with a sword. 23:47.560 --> 23:51.560 And he was amazing, because somehow we strapped him up 23:51.560 --> 23:54.560 and we did a later performance in the afternoon. 23:54.560 --> 23:56.560 Extraordinary, yeah. 23:56.560 --> 23:59.560 So these were mad, mad days, really. 23:59.560 --> 24:01.560 Pardon me, madam, I must go. 24:01.560 --> 24:04.560 Nero's wife was played by Kay Patrick. 24:04.560 --> 24:08.560 I knew something about Poppea, but only, I'm ashamed to say, through Quo Vadis, 24:08.560 --> 24:12.560 who had a very glamorous woman playing her with two cheetahs, 24:12.560 --> 24:16.560 which I thought was wonderful, and I hoped I might have two cheetahs as well 24:16.560 --> 24:18.560 if I got the part, but I didn't. 24:18.560 --> 24:20.560 Dearest, which one do you think I should wear? 24:20.560 --> 24:21.560 Oh, that one. 24:21.560 --> 24:24.560 Oh, really? I would have preferred the other, but if you insist. 24:24.560 --> 24:30.560 The story of the real Poppea Sabina is one of ambition, ruthlessness and horror. 24:30.560 --> 24:33.560 Poppea Sabina was Nero's second wife. 24:33.560 --> 24:35.560 She was about seven years older than him 24:35.560 --> 24:40.560 and she represents yet another domineering female figure in Nero's life. 24:40.560 --> 24:44.560 Of course, Nero was already married at the point when he met Poppea. 24:44.560 --> 24:47.560 He was married to the daughter of the previous emperor, 24:47.560 --> 24:49.560 and the daughter was called Octavia, 24:49.560 --> 24:56.560 and Octavia was executed in 62 AD, perhaps at the instigation of Poppea. 24:56.560 --> 24:59.560 I wasn't there for the comedy, I was there for the nastiness. 24:59.560 --> 25:03.560 So I think the fact that she could quite easily arrange for somebody to be poisoned 25:03.560 --> 25:07.560 the way she caught Nero's eye was captured well in the script. 25:07.560 --> 25:08.560 There's no answer to failure. 25:08.560 --> 25:10.560 But I would have sworn it would be true. 25:10.560 --> 25:14.560 I'm tired of your feeble excuses. Guards, guards! Take her! 25:14.560 --> 25:17.560 Poppea was a very important influence on Nero, 25:17.560 --> 25:20.560 but what happened in the end to Poppea is very interesting 25:20.560 --> 25:26.560 because Poppea, when she was pregnant with Nero's child in 65 AD, 25:26.560 --> 25:29.560 a year after our episodes, 25:29.560 --> 25:32.560 Nero kicks her to death while she's pregnant 25:32.560 --> 25:34.560 and that's the end of Poppea. 25:34.560 --> 25:38.560 I'm not able to give you your freedom. You'll still be a slave. 25:38.560 --> 25:41.560 The character of Tabeus was played by Michael Peake, 25:41.560 --> 25:45.560 and in a striking scene is revealed to be an early Christian. 25:45.560 --> 25:51.560 Michael Peake. I heard about him from one of our production assistants. 25:51.560 --> 25:54.560 I looked him up and thought, oh, what a wonderful face. 25:54.560 --> 25:57.560 Just right for a sort of double dealer. 25:57.560 --> 26:01.560 And so I was very happy to cast him. I think he was excellent. 26:01.560 --> 26:04.560 I had to slap Tabeus. 26:04.560 --> 26:09.560 I can remember being very worried that I might hurt him 26:09.560 --> 26:12.560 and he said, just go for it, so I did. 26:12.560 --> 26:16.560 And I think he lived to tell the tale. 26:16.560 --> 26:19.560 Good luck, my child. Good luck. 26:19.560 --> 26:22.560 We know from several sources that Christianity, 26:22.560 --> 26:25.560 even 30-odd years after the crucifixion of Christ, 26:25.560 --> 26:28.560 had already made its presence felt in Rome. 26:28.560 --> 26:31.560 We think they were mainly women and slaves, 26:31.560 --> 26:36.560 figures in Roman society that perhaps didn't have a good life for various reasons 26:36.560 --> 26:39.560 and the promise of an afterlife was something that appealed to them, 26:39.560 --> 26:43.560 that wasn't part of any kind of current-state Roman religion. 26:43.560 --> 26:46.560 There you see, young woman, that's the whole story. 26:46.560 --> 26:49.560 I saw you with that poor woman slave 26:49.560 --> 26:53.560 and it was then that I realised by the way you were looking after her 26:53.560 --> 26:55.560 that I should have to help you. 26:55.560 --> 26:58.560 It added another dimension to it because, interesting, 26:58.560 --> 27:00.560 why was Tabeus so nice to Barbara? 27:00.560 --> 27:03.560 Obviously because he had become a Christian and so on 27:03.560 --> 27:07.560 and because he could recognise Barbara as a kind woman, as a caring person 27:07.560 --> 27:10.560 and therefore he was prepared to do something for her. 27:10.560 --> 27:14.560 Now don't worry, I'll think of something, I promise you. Everything will be all right. 27:14.560 --> 27:16.560 It's possible that a member of the imperial court 27:16.560 --> 27:18.560 could have been converted to Christianity, 27:18.560 --> 27:22.560 although I think perhaps fairly unlikely at this stage. 27:22.560 --> 27:26.560 Certainly later on, 100, 200 years later, the imperial court 27:26.560 --> 27:29.560 would certainly have been infiltrated by people with Christian sympathies, 27:29.560 --> 27:33.560 if not people who'd identified themselves as being Christians. 27:33.560 --> 27:38.560 How many cistercia have I bid for this fine female example? 27:38.560 --> 27:43.560 In many ways slavery is thought to have been the economic bedrock of the Roman Empire. 27:43.560 --> 27:47.560 Without slavery, the Roman Empire could not have sustained itself. 27:47.560 --> 27:51.560 The slaves were thought to be responsible for the production 27:51.560 --> 27:56.560 of most of the agriculture and most of the craftsmanship in the Roman Empire. 27:56.560 --> 28:00.560 If you think about servants then, think about machines today, 28:00.560 --> 28:02.560 and that literally was... 28:02.560 --> 28:06.560 I mean, Nero would have somebody wake him up. 28:06.560 --> 28:09.560 Then he'd have someone else help him out of the bed. 28:09.560 --> 28:11.560 Then he'd have someone else take his nightclothes off. 28:11.560 --> 28:13.560 Then he'd have someone else wash him. 28:13.560 --> 28:18.560 But it's also fundamental socially because slavery is very widespread. 28:18.560 --> 28:22.560 It's the imperial court, the emperor, and the aristocrats that have slaves. 28:22.560 --> 28:26.560 It's thought that everybody with a little bit of money would be able to afford a slave 28:26.560 --> 28:29.560 to do their mundane day-to-day tasks. 28:29.560 --> 28:33.560 So slavery is a very important social element of Roman society 28:33.560 --> 28:36.560 as well as being a crucial economic factor. 28:36.560 --> 28:40.560 It's nice that they don't pull away from that and brush it under the carpet. 28:40.560 --> 28:42.560 It's right up front. 28:42.560 --> 28:47.560 There were slaves in those times, and it wasn't particularly nice. 28:47.560 --> 28:52.560 Someone like Nero would have had hundreds and hundreds of servants 28:52.560 --> 28:56.560 like we have hundreds and hundreds of machines to make our lives go. 28:56.560 --> 28:58.560 And so I love that. 28:58.560 --> 29:01.560 It was fun. I loved servants. 29:01.560 --> 29:04.560 If I was rich, I'd have everybody. 29:04.560 --> 29:06.560 Everybody would be a servant. I love it. 29:08.560 --> 29:13.560 The climax of our story features the infamous Great Fire of Rome. 29:13.560 --> 29:17.560 The fire burned fiercely for five days. 29:18.560 --> 29:21.560 Large parts of Rome were built from wood, 29:21.560 --> 29:25.560 and four of the 14 districts were completely destroyed. 29:25.560 --> 29:30.560 The Great Fire of Rome in AD 64 is one of the most infamous events in Nero's life. 29:30.560 --> 29:33.560 We don't know why it happened. 29:33.560 --> 29:37.560 The kind of later interpretation is that Nero started it on purpose 29:37.560 --> 29:41.560 in order to clear a vast area of Rome on which to build a new palace. 29:41.560 --> 29:43.560 I said it wouldn't pass my plans, eh? 29:43.560 --> 29:46.560 Wouldn't let me build my new Rome. 29:46.560 --> 29:49.560 In all likelihood, the fire probably started accidentally. 29:49.560 --> 29:51.560 There were fires all the time in Rome. 29:51.560 --> 29:56.560 Rome was built partly out of a lot of wooden huts and wooden constructions, 29:56.560 --> 29:59.560 and fires were not unusual, 29:59.560 --> 30:03.560 and we know there were very, very bad winds at this period in 64 AD 30:03.560 --> 30:06.560 that would have spread the fire far and wide. 30:06.560 --> 30:09.560 I was a bit disappointed in the Fire of Rome. 30:09.560 --> 30:15.560 I mean, the Fire of Rome was not a great hit, was it? 30:15.560 --> 30:19.560 I mean, it was just a sort of light going on and off 30:19.560 --> 30:23.560 behind a sort of cut-out of a city somewhere. 30:23.560 --> 30:26.560 This was a last-minute request. 30:28.560 --> 30:30.560 Not only was it last-minute, 30:30.560 --> 30:34.560 there was nothing left in the kitty to pay for it. 30:34.560 --> 30:42.560 So it was a question of talking to the special-effects people, 30:42.560 --> 30:48.560 Shawcraft models, to see what they could do, you know, for a few pounds. 30:48.560 --> 30:50.560 I thought it looked awful. 30:50.560 --> 30:53.560 I nearly walked out of the studio in disgust. 30:53.560 --> 30:57.560 I expect Neil and Barbara will be wondering when we are going to get back. 30:57.560 --> 31:00.560 Doctor! Look! 31:00.560 --> 31:04.560 You can't possibly accuse me of...of...of...for that! 31:04.560 --> 31:07.560 All right, you have it your way, I'll have it mine. 31:07.560 --> 31:09.560 Now, look here, young lady, let's settle this, 31:09.560 --> 31:12.560 insinuating that all this is my fault. 31:12.560 --> 31:15.560 Hmm? Hmm. 31:15.560 --> 31:17.560 My fault. 31:17.560 --> 31:20.560 Although the viewing figures for the Romans were very good, 31:20.560 --> 31:23.560 the audience appreciation was somewhat mixed. 31:23.560 --> 31:26.560 This programme gets more and more bizarre. 31:26.560 --> 31:29.560 In fact, it's so ridiculous, it's a bloody disaster. 31:29.560 --> 31:32.560 The performances were nothing to write home about. 31:32.560 --> 31:34.560 Hamming is the only word for it. 31:34.560 --> 31:37.560 Not my cup of tea, but the kids seem to like it. 31:37.560 --> 31:39.560 Maybe it was because of this reaction 31:39.560 --> 31:44.560 that it took over 40 years for the Doctor to return to the Roman Empire. 31:50.560 --> 31:52.560 Ancient Rome! 31:52.560 --> 31:55.560 When I first got the job and they told me it was Pompeii 31:55.560 --> 31:58.560 and all that other kind of business, I just thought, 31:58.560 --> 32:00.560 let me just double-check. I'm sure they all know, 32:00.560 --> 32:03.560 but I just want to double-check that I'm not going to say anything 32:03.560 --> 32:05.560 that contradicts something, so I went and looked back 32:05.560 --> 32:08.560 and there's a whole kind of timeline of everywhere he's been. 32:08.560 --> 32:11.560 And I looked and it was like, oh, he was actually in Rome. 32:11.560 --> 32:15.560 And then I looked up and I read the whole synopsis of the story 32:15.560 --> 32:18.560 and I thought, I've got to mention that, 32:18.560 --> 32:20.560 I've got to put a little reference in. 32:20.560 --> 32:24.560 It's nice, actually, they're set quite close together. 32:24.560 --> 32:28.560 The Romans, it's set in 1864 in the fires of Pompeii, 32:28.560 --> 32:31.560 of course, the eruption of Vesuvius, 1879. 32:31.560 --> 32:36.560 There's a nice little nod to the Romans at the start of the fires of Pompeii. 32:36.560 --> 32:39.560 Have you been here before, then? No. 32:39.560 --> 32:43.560 If you've never heard of the Romans, it works as a joke. 32:43.560 --> 32:46.560 If you have heard of the Romans and you know the story, 32:46.560 --> 32:48.560 then it works on that level as well. 32:48.560 --> 32:51.560 Before you ask, that fire had nothing to do with me. 32:51.560 --> 32:54.560 Well, a little bit, but I haven't got the chance to look around properly. 32:54.560 --> 32:55.560 Colosseum. 32:57.560 --> 33:00.560 Is that your lion? Why, have you lost her? 33:00.560 --> 33:07.560 I thought that Dennis Spooner really brought a fresh look to the show 33:07.560 --> 33:12.560 and he created something which was light and amusing 33:12.560 --> 33:16.560 and yet was still dramatic, was still an exciting story. 33:16.560 --> 33:19.560 What is going to happen? Is Ian going to get out? 33:19.560 --> 33:26.560 Or, you know, I thought his combination was very, very successful. 33:49.560 --> 33:51.560 .