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be.
with what the f.b.i. can do
expanding so rapidly, james
comey keeps this memo right on
his desk to remind him of what
the bureau shouldn't do.
marked "secret," it's a 1963
request from f.b.i. director j.
edgar hoover titled: "martin
luther king, jr.
security matter - communist."
hoover requests authority for
"technical surveillance" of
king.
the approval is signed by
attorney general robert kennedy.
and there was no court order.
it was the signature of the
f.b.i. director and the
signature of the attorney
general?
>> comey: yep.
and then, open-ended-- no time
limit, no space restriction, no
review, no oversight.
>> pelley: and given the threats
in the world today, wouldn't
that make your job so much
easier?
>> comey: in a sense, but in...
also in a sense, we would give
up so much that makes sure that
we're rooted in the rule of law
that i'd never want to make that
be.
with what the f.b.i. can do
expanding so rapidly, james
comey keeps this memo right on
his desk to remind him of what
the bureau shouldn't do.
marked "secret," it's a 1963
request from f.b.i. director j.
edgar hoover titled: "martin
luther king, jr.
security matter - communist."
hoover requests authority for
"technical surveillance" of
king.
the approval is signed by
attorney general robert kennedy.
and there was no court order.
it was the signature of...
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activities that did not have a
lawful basis.
>> pelley: at the time, comey
was in charge at the justice
department because attorney
general john ashcroft was in
intensive care with near-fatal
pancreatitis.
when comey refused to sign off,
the president's chief of staff,
andy card, headed to the
hospital to get ashcroft's okay.
you got in a car with lights and
sirens and raced to the hospital
to beat the president's chief of
staff there?
>> comey: yep, raced over there,
ran up the stairs, got there
first.
>> pelley: what did you tell the
attorney general, lying in his
hospital bed?
>> comey: not much, because he
was very, very bad off.
i tried to see whether he was
oriented as to place and time,
and it was clear to me that he
wasn't.
i tried to have him understand
what this was about.
and it wasn't clear to me that
he understood what i was saying,
so i sat down to wait.
>> pelley: to wait for andy
card, the president's chief of
staff?
activities that did not have a
lawful basis.
>> pelley: at the time, comey
was in charge at the justice
department because attorney
general john ashcroft was in
intensive care with near-fatal
pancreatitis.
when comey refused to sign off,
the president's chief of staff,
andy card, headed to the
hospital to get ashcroft's okay.
you got in a car with lights and
sirens and raced to the hospital
to beat the president's chief of
staff there?
>> comey: yep, raced over there,
ran up the...
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cuts both ways, and comey told
us he's worried now that apple
and google have the power to
upend the rule of law.
until now, a judge could order
those companies to unlock a
criminal suspect's phone.
but their new software makes it
impossible for them to crack a
code set by the user.
>> comey: the notion that we
would market devices that would
allow someone to place
themselves beyond the law
troubles me a lot.
as a country, i don't know why
we would want to put people
beyond the law-- that is, sell
cars with trunks that couldn't
ever be opened by law
enforcement with a court order,
or sell an apartment that could
never be entered, even by law
enforcement.
would you want to live in that
neighborhood?
this is a similar concern.
the notion that people have
devices, again, that, with court
orders based on a showing of
probable cause in a case
involving kidnapping or child
exploitation or terrorism, we
could never open that phone?
my sense is that we've gone too
cuts both ways, and comey told
us he's worried now that apple
and google have the power to
upend the rule of law.
until now, a judge could order
those companies to unlock a
criminal suspect's phone.
but their new software makes it
impossible for them to crack a
code set by the user.
>> comey: the notion that we
would market devices that would
allow someone to place
themselves beyond the law
troubles me a lot.
as a country, i don't know why
we would want to put people
beyond the law-- that...
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president, calling the situation
"apocalyptic" and "fundamentally
wrong."
he left the letter on his desk,
and he and f.b.i. director
robert mueller went to the white
house to resign.
>> comey: yeah.
we stood there together, waiting
to go meet the president,
looking out at the rose garden,
both of us knowing this was our
last time there and the end of
our government careers.
>> pelley: wasn't it your
responsibility to support the
president?
>> comey: no.
no, my responsibility, i took an
oath to support and defend the
constitution of the united
states.
>> pelley: this was something
the president wanted to go
forward with.
and you were standing in front
of the president of the united
states telling him he shouldn't
do it, and if he did, you'd
quit.
do i have that right?
>> comey: i don't think i
expressly threatened to quit at
any point.
but that was understood.
>> pelley: president bush was
persuaded.
the program that we've
discussed, as i understand it,
was in fact re-authorized,...
president, calling the situation
"apocalyptic" and "fundamentally
wrong."
he left the letter on his desk,
and he and f.b.i. director
robert mueller went to the white
house to resign.
>> comey: yeah.
we stood there together, waiting
to go meet the president,
looking out at the rose garden,
both of us knowing this was our
last time there and the end of
our government careers.
>> pelley: wasn't it your
responsibility to support the
president?
>> comey: no.
no,...
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program he thought was illegal.
>> risen: we weren't revealing
to anybody the fact that the
united states listened to
terrorist phone calls.
everybody knew that.
the terrorists have known that
forever.
what we were revealing was that
the u.s. government was
violating its own laws.
>> stahl: did you think that the
whole program... did you think
it was useless?
>> risen: no, i didn't think it
was useless.
i thought that if we are going
to fight a global war on terror,
we should follow the rule of law
in the united states.
>> stahl: risen remains at "the
new york times," still covering
national security.
and he's written a new book.
he could be called to testify
about his confidential sources
as early as january.
program he thought was illegal.
>> risen: we weren't revealing
to anybody the fact that the
united states listened to
terrorist phone calls.
everybody knew that.
the terrorists have known that
forever.
what we were revealing was that
the u.s. government was
violating its own laws.
>> stahl: did you think that the
whole program... did you think
it was useless?
>> risen: no, i didn't think it
was useless.
i thought that if we are going
to fight a global war on terror,
we should...
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staff?
>> comey: yeah, and then-white
house counsel gonzales.
>> pelley: they spoke to
attorney general ashcroft and
said that the program should be
reauthorized, and you were there
to argue that it should not be.
how did it end?
>> comey: with the attorney
general-- surprising me,
shocking me by pushing himself
up on his elbows, and in very
strong terms, articulating the
merits of the matter.
and then saying, "but... but
that doesn't matter, because i'm
not the attorney general."
and then he turned to me and
pointed and said, "there's the
attorney general."
and then he fell back, and they
turned and left.
>> pelley: you'd won the day?
>> comey: yeah, i didn't feel
that way.
>> pelley: how did you feel?
>> comey: probably a little
sick, and a little sense of
unreality that this was
happening.
>> pelley: the next day, some in
the white house tried to force
the authorization through a
different way, so comey wrote a
letter of resignation to the
president, calling the...
staff?
>> comey: yeah, and then-white
house counsel gonzales.
>> pelley: they spoke to
attorney general ashcroft and
said that the program should be
reauthorized, and you were there
to argue that it should not be.
how did it end?
>> comey: with the attorney
general-- surprising me,
shocking me by pushing himself
up on his elbows, and in very
strong terms, articulating the
merits of the matter.
and then saying, "but... but
that doesn't matter, because i'm
not the attorney...
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life, and i wasn't going to let
anybody else write it.
>> stahl: general hayden makes
the argument that you didn't
have the expertise or the
knowledge to know the whole
picture and to understand the
whole picture.
and i guess implicit in that
argument is, "who... who the
hell are you?"
>> risen: ( laughs )
yeah.
>> stahl: i'm serious.
"who elected you? yeah.
>> risen: the whole global war
on terror has been classified.
if we today had only had
information that was officially
authorized from the u.s.
government, we would know
virtually nothing about the war
on terror.
life, and i wasn't going to let
anybody else write it.
>> stahl: general hayden makes
the argument that you didn't
have the expertise or the
knowledge to know the whole
picture and to understand the
whole picture.
and i guess implicit in that
argument is, "who... who the
hell are you?"
>> risen: ( laughs )
yeah.
>> stahl: i'm serious.
"who elected you? yeah.
>> risen: the whole global war
on terror has been classified.
if we today had only had
information...
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involving wiretaps and what
happens when the demands of
national security collide with
the public's right to know.
that dilemma is at the heart of
the case of james risen, a
pulitzer-prize winning
investigative reporter for "the
new york times."
risen was the first to break the
story about the n.s.a.'s secret
wiretapping program that
monitored americans' phone calls
without a court warrant.
he's been subpoenaed to divulge
his confidential sources in a
separate federal criminal trial.
he appealed the subpoena all the
way up to the supreme court, but
the court turned down his
petition.
now, if he doesn't name names,
he could go to jail.
will you divulge your source?
>> james risen: no.
>> stahl: never?
>> risen: never, no.
basically, the choice the
government's given me is give up
everything i believe or go to
jail.
so, i'm not going to... i'm not
going to talk.
involving wiretaps and what
happens when the demands of
national security collide with
the public's right to know.
that dilemma is at the heart of
the case of james risen, a
pulitzer-prize winning
investigative reporter for "the
new york times."
risen was the first to break the
story about the n.s.a.'s secret
wiretapping program that
monitored americans' phone calls
without a court warrant.
he's been subpoenaed to divulge
his confidential sources in a
separate federal criminal...
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>> pelley: what's the lesson?
>> comey: the lesson is the
importance of never becoming
untethered to oversight and
accountability.
i want all of my new special
agents and intelligence analysts
to understand that portion of
the f.b.i.'s history, the
f.b.i.'s interaction with dr.
king, and draw from it an
understanding of the dangers of
falling in love with our own
>> pelley: what's the lesson?
>> comey: the lesson is the
importance of never becoming
untethered to oversight and
accountability.
i want all of my new special
agents and intelligence analysts
to understand that portion of
the f.b.i.'s history, the
f.b.i.'s interaction with dr.
king, and draw from it an
understanding of the dangers of
falling in love with our own
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people are going to roll their
eyes when they hear that?
>> comey: yeah, but we cannot
read your emails or listen to
your calls without going to a
federal judge, making a showing
of probable cause that you are a
terrorist, an agent of a foreign
power, or a serious criminal of
some sort, and get permission
for a limited period of time to
intercept those communications.
it is an extremely burdensome
process, and i like it that way.
>> pelley: that's a principle
over which james comey is
willing to sacrifice his career.
he proved it in 2004 when he was
deputy attorney general.
comey was asked to reauthorize a
package of top secret
warrantless surveillance
targeting foreign terrorists.
but comey told us "significant
aspects" of the massive program
were not lawful.
he wouldn't be specific because
it's still top secret.
this was not something you were
willing to stand for?
>> comey: no, i was the deputy
attorney general of the united
states.
we were not going to authorize,
reauthorize, or...
people are going to roll their
eyes when they hear that?
>> comey: yeah, but we cannot
read your emails or listen to
your calls without going to a
federal judge, making a showing
of probable cause that you are a
terrorist, an agent of a foreign
power, or a serious criminal of
some sort, and get permission
for a limited period of time to
intercept those communications.
it is an extremely burdensome
process, and i like it that way.
>> pelley: that's a principle
over which james comey...
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we were not going to authorize,
reauthorize, or participate in
activities that did not have a
lawful basis.
>> pelley: at the time, comey
was in charge at the justice
department because attorney
general john ashcroft was in
we were not going to authorize,
reauthorize, or participate in
activities that did not have a
lawful basis.
>> pelley: at the time, comey
was in charge at the justice
department because attorney
general john ashcroft was in
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you publish, not personal,
right?
>> risen: feels personal.
( laughs )
>> stahl: he says the current
standoff with the government
began in 2004 over what would
become the biggest story of his
career, that would win the
pulitzer prize-- the top-secret
warrantless wiretap program run
by the national security agency.
>> risen: it was called "no such
agency."
and it was this massive part of
the intelligence community that
almost no one ever wrote about.
what they were supposed to do
was spy on foreigners,
electronic eavesdropping of
foreign people overseas.
basically, what i found out
about was they had suddenly
turned this giant eavesdropping
operation at the n.s.a. onto the
american people, in secret, and
that's what the story was.
>> stahl: were they actually
listening in or just recording
that meta-data?
>> risen: they were doing both.
they had the content and they
you publish, not personal,
right?
>> risen: feels personal.
( laughs )
>> stahl: he says the current
standoff with the government
began in 2004 over what would
become the biggest story of his
career, that would win the
pulitzer prize-- the top-secret
warrantless wiretap program run
by the national security agency.
>> risen: it was called "no such
agency."
and it was this massive part of
the intelligence community that
almost no one ever wrote about.
what they were...
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that?
>> hayden: well, not the way we
did it.
>> stahl: he acknowledges the
n.s.a. program was "unarguably
inconsistent" with the 1978 law
prohibiting the agency from
eavesdropping on americans
without first obtaining a court
warrant.
>> hayden: it was warrantless,
but not unwarranted.
it would've been irresponsible
for n.s.a. not to have done this
in the immediate aftermath of
the attacks of 9/11.
>> stahl: but it was
eavesdropping on americans?
that was the story.
>> hayden: you know, one has to
choose words carefully here, all
right.
we were allowed to intercept
international calls.
>> stahl: had to be overseas.
>> hayden: had to be overseas.
and we already had reason to
believe that one or both ends of
the call were affiliated with al
qaeda.
>> stahl: besides, government
lawyers assured him that the
president's authority as
commander-in-chief trumped the
1978 law.
in their view, the program was
both legal and constitutional,
though, he acknowledges, just
that?
>> hayden: well, not the way we
did it.
>> stahl: he acknowledges the
n.s.a. program was "unarguably
inconsistent" with the 1978 law
prohibiting the agency from
eavesdropping on americans
without first obtaining a court
warrant.
>> hayden: it was warrantless,
but not unwarranted.
it would've been irresponsible
for n.s.a. not to have done this
in the immediate aftermath of
the attacks of 9/11.
>> stahl: but it was
eavesdropping on americans?
that was the...
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though, he acknowledges, just
barely.
>> hayden: hey, i knew we were
playing up against the line.
>> stahl: so, what you're
telling us is that you went into
this knowing that if it came
out...
>> hayden: oh, god, yes.
>> stahl: ...there'd be
questions of legality?
>> hayden: of course, and
appropriateness and abuse.
>> stahl: that's why you didn't
want it to come out?
see, that's what jim risen says-
- you didn't want to be
embarrassed.
>> hayden: let me... let me turn
it, okay?
jim's going to go to jail.
why?
because jim wants to protect his
sources.
we're both in the same business-
- you and me, jim and me.
you have sources who remain
productive only as long as you
can protect them from exposure.
exposing our tactics,
techniques, procedures, sources,
and methods harms us as much as
mr. risen would be harmed if he
were forced in court to expose
his source.
though, he acknowledges, just
barely.
>> hayden: hey, i knew we were
playing up against the line.
>> stahl: so, what you're
telling us is that you went into
this knowing that if it came
out...
>> hayden: oh, god, yes.
>> stahl: ...there'd be
questions of legality?
>> hayden: of course, and
appropriateness and abuse.
>> stahl: that's why you didn't
want it to come out?
see, that's what jim risen says-
- you didn't want to be
embarrassed.
>> hayden: let...
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lives over things about which
people are acting on principle,
so i'd be very careful about it.
>> stahl: so you would not be
pursuing jim if you had the
decision to make?
>> hayden: frankly, lesley, i
don't understand the necessity
to pursue jim.
>> stahl: you're shocking me--
that the former head of the
n.s.a. is saying that it's
coming down too hard.
>> hayden: i'm conflicted.
i know the damage that is done,
and i do.
but i also know the free press
necessity in a free society.
and it actually might be that i
think, "no, he's wrong.
that was a mistake.
that was a terrible thing to do.
america will suffer because of
that story."
but then i have to think about,
so how do i redress that?
and if the method of redressing
that actually harms the broad
freedom of the press, that's
still wrong.
the government needs to be
strong enough to keep me safe,
but i don't want it so strong
lives over things about which
people are acting on principle,
so i'd be very careful about it.
>> stahl: so you would not be
pursuing jim if you had the
decision to make?
>> hayden: frankly, lesley, i
don't understand the necessity
to pursue jim.
>> stahl: you're shocking me--
that the former head of the
n.s.a. is saying that it's
coming down too hard.
>> hayden: i'm conflicted.
i know the damage that is done,
and i do.
but i also know the free press
necessity in a free...
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they had the content and they
were getting the meta-data.
>> stahl: after 9/11, president
bush authorized the n.s.a. to
listen in on americans suspected
of ties with al qaeda without a
judicial warrant, as required by
law.
>> risen: i get these people who
start telling me, in the
government and elsewhere,
"there's this huge secret i
can't tell you about."
>> stahl: did they say they were
upset about it, that it...
>> risen: yes.
they were tortured by what they
knew.
but they were frightened at the
they had the content and they
were getting the meta-data.
>> stahl: after 9/11, president
bush authorized the n.s.a. to
listen in on americans suspected
of ties with al qaeda without a
judicial warrant, as required by
law.
>> risen: i get these people who
start telling me, in the
government and elsewhere,
"there's this huge secret i
can't tell you about."
>> stahl: did they say they were
upset about it, that it...
>> risen: yes.
they were tortured by what...
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in my book."
>> stahl: he was writing a book.
and he was going to put several
reports in it that his editors
had killed, along with the
n.s.a. story.
jill abramson, then the "times'"
second in command, says that was
a turning point.
>> jill abramson: it would be
potentially very embarrassing to
the times to have this big story
come out in jim's book, and our
readers would feel, why was this
not in "the new york times"?
>> stahl: so he forced your
hand?
he did.
>> abramson: in some ways, he
forced our hand.
sure, he did.
>> stahl: had you fallen under
the sway of the post 9/11
concerns about safety in this
country, security?
>> abramson: i... i think that i
had a bit, and i don't think i
was alone.
i think that the years right
after 9/11 were a period when
the washington press corps-- and
i put myself very much in that
group-- it wasn't our finest
hour.
it wasn't.
in my book."
>> stahl: he was writing a book.
and he was going to put several
reports in it that his editors
had killed, along with the
n.s.a. story.
jill abramson, then the "times'"
second in command, says that was
a turning point.
>> jill abramson: it would be
potentially very embarrassing to
the times to have this big story
come out in jim's book, and our
readers would feel, why was this
not in "the new york times"?
>> stahl: so he forced...