>> board of appeals president lopez will be do proceeding and joined by vice president lemberg and commissioner trasvina and commissioner eppler and city deputy first year for legal advice i'm the executive director we will also be joined by representatives from the city departments will be presenting before the board corey the planning department and kevin birmingham building inspection and mag any executive director with the entertainment commission and dylan manager with the entertainment commission and the groundwater manager i apologize if i

pronounce that incorrectly and with f f puc. >> the board meeting guidelines as follows: the board requests you silence all phones will not disturb the proceedings and no eating and drinking in the board room the board's rules permanent holders are given 7 minutes for presenting their case 7 minutes for rebuttal. >> a. for hearing requests the parties are three minutes with no rebuttal and time maybe limit to one to two minutes if a large number of particulars and we'll have a verbal warning 4 vicinities for a grant of appeal or to grant a rehearing request if you board rules if i want to

hear that go to sfgovtv. >> now public comment assess and the participation a paramount importance sfgovtv is broadcasting a streaming live and we will have the represent of public comment and sfgovtv providing captioning for this meeting to watch on tv channel 78 and please note rebroadcast on friday on channel 26 and the live stream on the hot page sfgovtv forward/boa and public comment i have a pious pause for a moment it is a fire hazard we have an overflow room on the recruitment. >> have to go to the bottom and a pd in 9 room yeah, you can go into this room there is a tv

it in that room when your item is toddler u calmed you can adopt one can mvrp go to the webster sfgov and click on hearing and then the zombie donor today's hearing. >> you can provide public comment by telephone call one six 6968 three 3. and again, sfgovtv is broadcasting the phone number construction across the bottom of our screen. calling in for star 67 and listen to the portion to be called. >> call star 9 so we know you want to speak um, be brought into the hearing room and one to three that minutes depending on the agenda and the length of the speakers the legal assistant

will provide with you a public warming and on it is for that people reduce or turn down the tv and if my of the parents on zoom technical assistance can a make a request throw at chat function the legal assistant or send a message to the board of appeals can't be used for public opinion and for those present in the hearing room we'll swear in or firm any member of the public may speak without taking an oversight. if you intend to testify at the proceedings and wish to have evidentiary weight raise your hand and say i do after

do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth and nothing but the truth? >> okay. thank you. >> if you are participant and not speaking put your zoom own mute so we have a lot more people so we have a long agenda so i want to ask for or ask the people who are here for at least we have for item number 9 that is the coast permit would you be willing to have this continued it may 8th so you don't have to wait until your item is called? yes. >> i'm sorry and okay. thank you. >> and is there a representative from puc here? >> can i raise your hand? >> represent from the puc on

zoom. you're fine with that the zoning administrator said we have to check with the puc since their the permit holder yeah, you time to text? >> hello commissioner question. >> i do a point of order appears your captioning is not working frontier since 12:48 p.m. today. >> sfgovtv could check into the campaigning will be appreciated. >> what about in the a lot of people would you like to try for the people about sanchez i don't see advertising for the appellants would you be willing to move this to may 8th?

[off mic.] >> that's fine. >> no problem i understand. >> sfgovtv said we're working on the caption now and and what about the poppe's would you be willing to move to may 8th if not no problem at all you want to stay? okay. >> okay. i understand. >> okay. i think. >> why not. >> worst a reminder about the 10:00 p.m. policy as well. >> the policy if not hearing after 10:00 p.m. >> the board reserved the right not to call an item after 10:00 p.m. they reserve that right not mandatory but none of water people are here we'll start with the hearing and we

can make that announcement later on so item number 1 that scombrument. >> opportunity for anyone in the boards jurisdictions not on tonight complained any members of the public wish to speak on my item not on the calendar i don't o i don't see anyone in the room or on zoom. okay. >> so let's moving on to item two commissioners kensington-wheaton communities master plan, aye. >> i'm i i'll jump in welcome to everyone many did room this evening we don't play before the house it is great to see everyone. >> with that in mind a couple of things with respect to the housekeeping following up on the encouragement or suggestion to consider rescheduling for my of the parties this evening as a our executive director we have an unofficial policy of reserving the right to continue

an item unilaterally if it is skermd to start over 10:00 p.m. in respect to everyone's time and schedule the schedule are you willing to risk waiting until 10:00 p.m. and not heard at all this evening to frame that decision appropriately and then just a word of encouragement for all of us up here just in light of the size of the public presence and the number of items on the agenda um, just a word of encouragement to hold questions until rebuttal so we can give ourselves the best chance of getting through the supervisor rice agenda with that. >> commissioner trasvina. >> thank you president lopez welcome to those people in the room great to see a full room

particularly of young people this is your city government at work and without regards to the merits of the case before you i want to welcome you all here and part of the city government. separately on the matter if the only party in the last case of puc who we don't know about later on maybe somebody can reach out to them. >> (multiple voices). >> everyone is happy. >> i'll that and that i'll be here but thought they were on the last one on the agenda. >> i want to reach out to them i called and got an answering machine. >> in anyone prosecute the puc is here we'll check in after. >> (multiple voices). >> a question so you could. >> she should stay for now.

>> thank you. >> and any all of the these matters are important whether two people a neighbor and a neighbor or community group or a lot of people so i hear usual president and executive director that we should be limiting our questions we want to make sure that everybody get a thorough hearing and feels like they get a thorough hearing so i'll do my best to get my questions in the right order and not overly talk about active. >> you can't stand against the wall go the first right encouragement a tv and, see the preceding so any public comment on this item on the commissioner questions or comments. >> please raise your hand i don't see anyone on zoom so we are moving to the adoption of

minutes before you the possibility discussion of it april 23rd meeting and commissioner trasvina. >> move to adopt the minutes of april meeting. >> any public comment to adopt the minutes? >> anyone on the sdoim i don't see any on the motion president lopez, aye. >> vice president lemberg, aye. >> commissioner swig the minutes are adopted now moving on to items 4a and b. those are hearing for appeal number 2, 4 and 6, 9 subject property lombardi streets requesting a rehearing from march at the a motion by president lopez voted.

>> (multiple voices). >> on the basis were properly issued. >> (multiple voices). >> item number 202144 for the demolition of carport and appeal 0062021094046 for a fourth story dwelling and since two appeals welcome mr. you can't know 6 minutes. >> thank you. >> honorable lopez and hello commissioners. thanks for a rehearing well, i'm here today um, like i want to make sure with the permits allowed to go forward we have to stick to the safety in the working drawings and the proper procedures and if today they did he testing.

>> like today or yesterday was a developer got (unintelligible) will be nepgsz in a few weeks so might go to prison by tried the partners and inspections. and so i'm not saying i excuse the process but the court can review it and the fbi can review it and anyway, i chtsdz concerned about excavation across the street took them seven years to get a primary the neighbors were concerned about the house and the damages to the tens of that - hundreds of million dollars. so and then one of the activity passed away of cancer and finally got a permit but have to blow up all that so, anyway no

definition this case has so many examples will be and also will it be a retaining wall so what i'm saying coming today a lot of things you need tee help me or the city reduces the liability requires some testing we're not trying to overturn the permit and so how are they going to guarantee it when they excavate a rock you have to devil or could have an earthquake all over for neighbors i - guaranteed will be a law firm under these vacation loan if i don't file and lawsuit and do testing and report before and

after damages so this thing will hold up and besides is there any but way the commission can demand a bond to finish? and also a construction financing in place. firefighters with $75,000 is typical we all want to save money and rip off the city and - but half a million dollars is far not enough and takes three to $5 million to build it and do that shoring a retaining wall? and excavate three loan is maybe half of the budget and maybe he can continue and, you know, there will be an ingentrification for a review and the city will be part of it for the city to arise the liability the best thing to demand testing. in the testing

says okay. fine but if i don't have any kind of testing and goad and cause damages the cities deep pockets and we should require the developer to buy extra insurance and a bond of financing bond to finish abused financing is very, very difficult right now and interest rate might not come down and you're talking about 12 or 15 percent for financing i - i know they're not developing with cash and should. and not an easy property and they don't finish it an easy sorry for years to come and so we want the bond construction extra insurance excavation and the cost of one half a million dollars is

impossible. okay. and years any report by baseline had i know um, the bedrock would be shattered we have the hardest rock in the question so and then there is no setback any way to do a setback? could we have a setback on both sides a little bit away from the the other building. the building is very close. okay. i did um, accepted some pictures you say i don't know if you see that a lot of buildings and the turnover is happening over the world so san francisco could could have a 10 point zero earthquake and find out of business and cause a lot of damage and other buildings

next door could flip over, too so- >> 30 seconds. >> (bell ringing). >> so the liability and expensive lawsuits i know the neighbors will file. they have to they have notice choice to protect themselves from the excavation. so i thought the commission could put guidelines for the independent inspector insurance and also the safety the drawings bring. >> difficult inspectors. >> okay. appreciate it. >> hear from the permit holder and the permits attorney is here. >> welcome you have 6 minutes. >> thank you. >> good evening, commissioners. from rose on behalf of the project sponsor with the permits the item before

you a hearing request for the project at 9 did lombardi street the board considered the appeals 24005 and 6 and voted 5 to zero to uphold the permit one week later on the appellant we ask the board uphold the permit. >> mr. angela has new information is changed the mayor 27 here and there and reviewing the resubmittal no indication forthcoming indication that justifies any hearing we understand the we hearing request the board my grant based on is showing that new or different facts or circumstances have arisen with such facts or circumstances known at times do with effected the original hearing and accordingly a

written request shall state the facts or circumstances the names 6 witnesses and/or the documents to be produced at the next hearing and why this he evidencing was not proud did failure to experience due diligence for the food trucks and circumstances at the previously hearing is grounds for denial and the appellant has failed or demonstrate that instead of agrees for more time for the same arguments at the march 27th hearing because he believes we got to wrong as - >> previously submitted though the board the appellant begin to staff the project on may nearly a year ago and had three different decision makers both sides and no. >> 1. call to order and roll call. witnesses or the need for testing or show he evidence how the health and safety is violated the board standard

require anyone have been presented and the board standards require a written exemption why this evidence is not presented the appellant has not provided justification why is he now speaking where ample opportunity own the dresser hearing or at appeal hearing in 2023 or the appeal hearing on friday, april 12, 2024, the standards have not been met the 35e89 has been heard and as a matter of fairness and lay. the appellant continues to raise the same issues are the excavation and construction of the property and the hearing on a new data for damages or what in the previously studies and approval is incorrect so your appeal might have been different or provided the information the new evidence is photos of rapidly

selected buildings no correlation between this project and the picture the appellant has not new evidence or incredible saying that upheld the permit. the appellant out of concern with the property values future litigation were raised not within the scope and not provider a basis for this hearing and further the appellant no new information such would change the appeal hearing and to conduct the parapet raise no new facts or circumstances to support question known at the time could would have effected the um, this concerns are considered 1e6789 by the planning commission the board of supervisors and this commission each of which found the permit were appropriately

done and the board rules failure to exercise necessary diligence from the previous hearings is denial for this request and the part time has not provided this and the negatives from the previous hearing should not allow this to happen and no reason to deploy the project we respectfully as the board of appeals deny this and we're here to answer any questions. with the architect. >> i don't see any questions? need to keep that door clear we have two seats the person is not coming actually later and and overflow on the court house if there is a tv down there you can come back back up but to seats the first person is not coming until later in and out now hear

from the planning department. >> good evening commissioners corey zoning administrator i'll be brief i think the permit holder laid it out extremely well the standard is not met in this case and generally agree with the arguments laid how by the permit hold and it should be denied and available for any questions? >> no questions. >> dbi? >> good evening, commissioners. birmingham representing the building department with mr. corey i concur no in the evidence offered and the hearing should not be granted. >> okay. thank you, any public comment on this item anyone in the room? >> anyone on zoom please raise your hand okay. i don't any

public comment commissioners it is submitted. >> let's start at the hear what commissioner swig says. >> my feeling the standard has not been metaphor this been offered and no manifest injustice i see, so my motion to deny the request for the hearing request. >> and didn't meet the standards for a rehearing. >> do i hear any further comment on this motion? >> seeing none. >> okay. we have a motion from commissioner swig to deny this based on no new evidence foreman festive injustify. >> president lopez, aye. >> vice president lemberg, aye. >> that carried 5 to zero and the requests are denied i want

to make an announcement i believe the sfpuc represent is higher would you like to continue this to may 8th we having a high volume of people? >> oh, you want to stay? okay. all right. so. thank you. >> okay. so we're going to move on to item number 5. >> and (rustling of papers.) and since we have a high volume of people do we want to hear 6 first another entertainment commission item. >> insure. >> just a suggestion but looks like we have a lot of people we'll hear item 6 brown first so many people are here for 5 those people could leave. okay. so item 6 is appeal versus the entertainment commission appealing march 21st for blue an

llc of a limited life performance entertainment and amplified sound in patio and indoor is allowed until 11:00 p.m. from 10 to 11:00 p.m. but shall not exceed up to ten times per calendar year permit anybody and we'll hear in the appellant first. >> welcome. >> good afternoon president lopez i'm avnd an attorney and friedman representing the street if neighbors as 32 union street a restaurant indoor and outdoor live entertainment and prerecorded productions it was 10 years ago club has hop been inundating residents with k350e6 noise die to entertainment

productions with or without permits. and despite maturity commits sfpd and 2311 over the it is an of years it was approved the application for live performance and commission disregarded the opposition we ask the board of appeals to resigned or further modify the permit the clubhouse has a clean record with respect to the noise and 311 should not be 12ker78d and the gpas a condition of the permit requires venues to have on site permit and neighbors should collaborative before involving improvement and opting to reach 20i9 to solve noise issues rather than 311 or the police and time it can't be or will not recipient and refusing

to have man better quiet those things miss interrupt the external and comboifrnt and this is correct that that internal and external are measured that different the point of sound recordings from the property in the ambient is 65 decimals a residential neighbor with an 50 feet of a of the property is measuring this didn't matter whether it assignment this as a de facto violation of permit and the police code. and now appellant has been made aware of the rear windows have sealed shout but to resolve this further actions will be important first must secure

locks on the windows and management keeps ooze windows and doors shut as required by the goals and objectives and the little league permit and as recommended by this during the march hearing must install a sound curtain and install a cooling system for the rear of the building and finally despite the contingencies well westbound the authority to condition them on the live translator until 10:00 p.m. and the san francisco code, however, allowance didn't be a requirement and excess needs considerable neighborhood noise are justice affordable ground not just the appellant by 5 other residents and shortly many others oppose the granted of this permit a they're families with i did not know

families and seniors this is much greater than the risk of losing one hour of entertainment and limiting those llp event will do a long way residents are heard and valued and make sure the resources are not enforcement had neighbors turn to 311 and their failure to curve the production but modify lp for the entertainment to 10:00 p.m. and thank you for your time and consideration and sound engineer on sound and acoustic to conclude our presentation. >> speaker: commissioners i'm tony nash of associates. and we were asked to make some measurements last saturday

night, that would be the 13th of april and we fountd the following, that the windows were closed, and the palm house in the year-end of it, towards the north side and under those conditions, the sound levels were reasonable and didn't exceed the background very much so. it's noticeable but not annoying, in my view. that's not to say that if the palm house had open window they would have an incase for mr. sailor. so it's a matter of enforcement of conditions to limit the annoyance in the neighborhood. and that's my view from saturday night. friday night the windows were open and there was more noise

but i was not there. do you have any questions? >> i don't see any questions at this time, are you finished? thank you. oh yes, we do. >> vice president--folks, we cannot have you standing in front of the door it's a fire hazard either go to the courtroom, light room there is a tv or go against the wall. and i see a seat there in the middle as well. please go ahead. >> thank you, in the entertainment commission's brief on this matter, they wrote that palm house didn't install window locks on all the applicable window here, is that true? >> i'm not sure but they were closed. >> but you did say that on another day they were open? >> according to my client. >> maybe your client is the better person to ask or their

counsel, you know, the windows, i'm sorry, this is the appellants, i'm sorry. this is okay, so it's your contention on another night it was open but the noise level is okay the noise level is acceptable. >> with the windows closed. >> but only if the windows are closed? >> and keeping the sound level in the restaurant to the stipulated amount in the commission. >> okay, were you able to take decibel measurements? >> outside, yes. >> when we say outside, how far are we talking about? >> we're talking about 50 feet to the northeast. >> that where your client's home is? >> yes.

>> okay, i may have more questions in rebuttal. >> sirz who is stand ining front of the door, sorry, you cannot stand there, it's a fire hazard. thank you. >> okay, commissioner--. >> this may be better addressed to the attorney or the client. if the client is here. i just want to follow-up on commissioner lindbergh's question on the nature, what you understand to be the ability for the restaurant to open the windows. >> as far as we know there are other windows in the property that don't have locks as well.

just a point of clarity, there was some live entertainment hosted friday night where mr. nash was taking readings on saturday night, there was no performance. >> but just because there are locks on the window, does that mean they're perm naturely closed and unlocked. >> they can be opened and unlocked which is a an issue that customers tend to open the window when it gets really hot because there is no cooling system. >> and as far as you know, they have a current obligation to keep the windows closed irrespective of locks. >> yes, a codinger to the good-neighbor policy. >> and speaking of good neighbors, can you confirm or contradict what i understand the entertainment commission that the police did not have

any objections on file. >> as far as we're aware, dating back to palm house's inception, almost 10 years ago, the police have been called. we're not really sure where those reports went and why they were not raised in part of staff report in the commission's presentation and as, we're aware, there was one 311 call in the last month for excessive noise i believe it was on saint patrick's day weekend. so there has been one in the last month or two. >> two other quick questions, this is solely about noise, not about litter and not about anything else. solely about noise? >> this is about excessive noise that keeps children, young --and elderly. >> i don't want to minimize noise, but i want to make sure

that the issue is noise. >> yes. >> and five other neighbors who are also contesting their permit or agreeing with me, what evidence do we have on that? >> they signed onto the letter that we sent to the commission for the march hearing. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> sir with the black shirt you cannot stand in front of the door, go in the hall or first floor and there is a tv, you can come up. okay, thank you. we'll now hear from the permit holders. advance trans -- ~>> i want to tackle a come of questions or statements, it's impossible for our windows to be open last friday night because we locked them and

sealed them shut as of last friday morning, there is pictures and locks. so whatever he's saying with the windows being open is a completely a lie, so we'll start with that. secondly, we applied for this permit back in november. and during the permit process, our neighbor mr. sayler contacted the entertainment department and we had a meeting, we talked about how can we help you guys. i live in the marina, i understand there is noise, how can we establish the noise problem if there is a problem. and the biggest concern was the window. i said i tell you what we do, we'll take the openers off the windows so guests cannot open the windows anymore. and we do shut them and what not. he would send pictures to entertainment committee saying

that our windows were open live entertainment, which was impossible because after super bowl we were closed at 10:00 at night. i asked this gentleman, i said please text me if there is any issue. he refuses to text me. he acceptsed pictures we're trying to be good neighbor. so let's put some locks on the window so guest cannot open the windows. i want today make sure it was not a safety liability and i commented during entertainment committee, hey i want to make sure that this is safety concern. i had that done and there was no concern, we put locks in the window, we locked up four of them and permanently sealed three of them so. there is no noise, he lives 50 yards away. the fact that he said that we

had live entertainment last friday is a lie. since we got this permit suspended as of april 1, we had to cancel five events which brought down our revenue by 50%. again, staffing, we're down going on our ten-year anniversary and we're down 30% sales before covid. if we do not get this permit, i don't want to say it but we're going to probably close, we cannot afford to have this. we've already lost money, losing nine events because of this suspension of this permit. we will file a good neighbor policy. they said there was a complaint, outside tiny speakers, we fixed that in realtime.

we also added alarms to manager's phones so that at 10:00 o'clock, they make sure that the speakers are turned off. we followed all of this protocols all in the name of mr. sailer, no other complaints. no police evidence, nothing like that. we've been a good neighbor. we're a restaurant, i'll let mr. wayne speak, but we've been voted most friendly dog restaurant and best brunch in the city. >> speaker: thank you for having me here and thank you for having us, and we appreciate the time. we've been around for ten years which sd unlike many restaurants in the city and we'll see a lot of new shutterings from what i hear and see. and we've done that through being compassionate and caring about our neighbors and all of our guests, you know.

i tell my team all the time, that we cannot make every one happy but let's try our best to do it. and i think with the applicant here, we try our best and the good neighbor policy is p reciprocated. we've given him our phone numbers, and he's unwilling. outside of our restaurant, you know, this restaurant, this city is in a tough place as we know and this is the best city in the world. and you know, outside of our own restaurant, we we volunteer, we give back. we want to give this city better. i've been the treasurer of golden restaurant association twice. i've been, i am the current treasurer of guard man we donate million and a half to

under privileged. i've, i was on the board of minds matter, we are giving back and spending so much time in front of groups like. honestly i feel bad for wasting your time here. we're just trying to run a business and it, we've, you know, we've put locks in our windows. we have a clean record with sfpd. every time the sf, the entertainment commission comes out to do sound readings, we're under those readings, inside and outside, okay. the union street association has written a letter to all of you. in our favor, right, we're constantly trying to figure out how to give back to the city. and i don't know what the applicant does, he does not accuse us from neighboring, but

he has to show willingness to work with us and just to be a human here. and you know, i'm going to leave it at that. i really appreciate the time. i want to promise you that there is nothing that they've, whether it's a 11:00 p.m. or 12:00 or 10:00 p.m., it makes no difference, he's coming after us. and we hope that you can overturn this ruling. >> thank you, we have a question from commissioner swig then vice president lemberg. >> thank you for your efforts to keep your business alive as a resident of marina and as somebody who has lived in this city only 72 years, i thank you. i recognize now as we walk down union street, it's sad it's a lot of dying businesses and i appreciate everything you say about trying to keep your business alive. and i'll leave it at that, with

that, i'll show no buy ans filing for or against you, but i know how tough it is especially the food and beveragage business because i've been in it for a long time. can you reference that you have many events upcoming. and that without those events, your life plug will be systemed. can you tell me, are these events new events? or is this conditionation of a pattern of behavior that the restaurant has exhibited or the club restaurant, i don't know what you call it, is it exhibited historically over the ten-year of your occupation? >> sorry. >> so we have programmed events through permits. so once a month, we have something called first friday

we have permits for that specific thing. we do not do things without permits. it's a $500 a permit, we can afford that, so that's why we applied for this. we were able to do one, with the permit that we got which was a brunch dj, no complaints, no sound noise, anything like that.

>> sorry to interrupt, you continue to continue your time to speak and i want to address the question. let me tighten up the question. i understand that you're filing for this permit so you don't have to file a permit every time you do entertainment. the pattern of favor that will occur as a result of this issuance, will that pattern of behavior be different from the pattern of behavior good, bad or indifferent that existed in the restaurant before? will there be more djs. because the probably is that bottom which goes boom boom, we know that. and i've dealt with it, running businesses.

>> is there going to be more music, more djs more events than previously existed at the club? >> we have music on every night. and we have, we have the limit set. there is a max volume right, that is often hit, right. which we've set a decibel that is in compliance. you know, the problem here, has been the window being popped open, so we added the locks to the window. we understand, that was something that we tried to control. nothing to do with h vac, that is at happening at 40 degree temperatures, we've had those in the city for the last three

or four months. so the pattern of behavior will be the same. we're still playing music, it's not going to increase but the windows will not be open. and even when the windows are open, we're still under the decibel readings at 50 feet. that's the thing here, we still want to be good neighbors. the neighbors adjacent to brad never explain, we never received a call from them. so it's just this individual that has a problem. and we still want to make it work, the windows will not be open. >> what will be your burden, what would be your burden to add further sound buffering outside of the windows or however the acoustic situation would mandate? >> i think it's first of all, it's unnecessary because we are compliant. second, there is a cost related to that. and third, as we mentioned, there is an esthetic, putting

up a curtain, we've spent so much money to create this experience and putting up a curtain, does not make sense. we're not a nightclub, we're playing music to create entertainment. the entertainment commission does not think it's necessary either. >> okay, thank you. commissioner lemberg. >> thank you, related but distinct from the last question that commissioner swig just asked. you said you put windows wood locks on the affected window, can you also go through what sound mitigation measures you've implemented since applying for this permit, initially? >> so as convince --vince mentioned, our max volume on our house stereo restaurant, which is a not a nightclub, it's a restaurant. it's under the decibel levels of what the max would be for the ec permit.

so that was at max volume, so we start withed that. also we have the alarm set on phones to make sure all speakers are turned off outside. and we have a decibel readers inside as well. they're doing a decibel reading to make sure that we're under that and when they came out, we've always been under as well so. we're taking our steps to make sure that there are under our decibel levels. and even when there is a complaint, they've come out and it's not necessarily a complaint. >> thank you, and have there been any realtime complaints when this, other noise violation right side actually going on? neighbors? >> i've gotten, as i mentioned earlier, i've asked the gentleman to text me. we get an email and emails are not, checking your emails at all times, so we'll get, i'll get an email, and i check my emails as much as possible.

but it might be 15-20 minutes versus realtime text. >> and i think when it's busy like saint patty's street, the street is filled with people and they do walk down corridor to see do what they want to do. so our job is to try to manage those to the best of our ability. so i cannot see that, when that happens, when people are standing next to homes, it can be a little loud right. i want to say that's all coming from us, but the street at large. >> slightly better question than the one i asked. have there been any complaints from people other than the appellant? >> no. >> commissioner trans vina. >> i'm interested in the

windows. what is your responsibility to have closed windows? >> the understanding is when we had live entertainment that all windows should be closed, towards the back area. we agreed to do that and that was it. we get pictured sent with open windows when we don't have live entertainment, i don't understand why we are getting pictures when there is not a dj. >> so your understanding is you're, of our obligation is, the windows need to be closed. >> at 10:00 o'clock when there is live music. >> in order to prevent too much noise? >> correct. >> so if you're painlting, you can have windows open because there will not be an issue. >> after-hours when the cleaners or in or our team is clean, there is no music on, but if we need to open the

doors to get things in and out and open the windows to get a draft in, but there is no noise at this point. >> that's what is confusing me and i understand you're good civic duty service to the city, beyond anybody's duty. and i understand the both sides are sighting the good-neighbor policy but i don't understand the nature of the windows now. one of you are saying is that they're permanently close and the other is saying they're going to be open when they need to be opened. so for the locked window ever be opened? >> there is 7 windows in that back room that he's complaining about. there is four of them that have padlocks there is pictures in our statement showing the locks. so those could be open whenever by a manager with a key not by a guest and three other main

windows that we could not put locks on because the frames were too thin so he literally went out on a latter and nailed them shut. four have locks on them and only can be opened by a manager with a key which is held in our office. >> okay, that's good to have on the record and have the neighbor hear it and the city hear it, thank you. >> thank you, no further questions, you can be seated. we'll now hear from the entertainment commission. >> speaker: good evening, president lopez, distinguished members of the board appeals and fellow attendees. i serve as in the entertainment commission. i'm here to address the appeal recording the permit for palm house. this appeal centers on the issue of sound you heard thus

far a issue which we take seriously. before dwelling into the specifics, i would like to provide some context on the role of our commission. we were established in 2002 by san francisco voters and we serve as a body overseeing the live entertainment and night live industry. our commission which operates under the authority of chapter 90 of the admin code and governed by police code is composed of 7 members and promotes a vibrant entertainment industry. the commission issued permits to regulate the time, place and manner of entertainment and outdoor amplified sound activities. the commission is supported by a small staff of 7 people including myself. we strife to strike a balance and a dressing the concerns of

residents and businesses through mediation and enforcement. we respond to sound complaints in realtime whenever possible and serve as a model to other cities permitting and regulatory processes. as a part of the wind down of our pandemic era just add music, or jam program, palm house submitted an application on november 28th to transfer their activities to a brick-and-mortar permit for enlt at entertainment. and a public hearing process for all of the permits including posting a notice on the facade for 30 days and conducting neighborhood out reach. the commission reviewed palm house application considering

their history of compliance under the jam perm pit up until 2023, at the end of this last year as well as a proposed use documentation of out reach neighborhoods, neighborhood opposition and approvele from relevant required department. under permit is legally permissible in the union street until 11:00 p.m. indoors and 10:00 p.m. out doors. palm house track record of compliance further supported this decision. palm had not operated as an entertainment venue so to speak for nearly a decade.

palm house participated in the jam permit program and amp sound on their patio. the commission received zero sound complaints during this period of time and also to support what the permit holder just said, they obtained one-time events to host events. the this appeal on dwelling unit is 85 feet not 50 feet from palm house's rear property line. in response to the appeal, palm house took measures by sealing and/or locking all seven of their rear windows as you just heard which is the closest to proximity to the appellant's home. this action alone demonstrate how palm house not only took this appeal serious will you our good neighbor policy which requires that all windows and doors remain close.

we believe that this also, was showing their the fact that they want today ensure that all operations were not going to disturb this particular neighbor. while the appellant has presented their elements, their credibility has been failed to be verified. the commission relies on professional sound readers ensuring consistency and reliability and enforcement action. before setting such limits, we conduct assessment including ten-minute readings and testing during periods when other potential entertainment sound sources in the area are at issue. in contrast, individual sound measurement may not count for ambient noise. set in accordance with police code and put the commission

under per view which provides safety guards against future sound complaints. the grant of this permit to palm house and any permit is firmly rooted in compliance with police code and other regulations should future sound compliance arise, compliance staff proactively respond to complaints again in realtime whenever possible as our sound inspectors are out and in response to any observed violations, we can issue written notices of violations, sitization with monetary signs and we can even require reappearances at our recommission hearing and in severe cases we can suspend a permit. in conclusion, i urge this board to dismiss this appeal and uphold the decision to grant the permit to palm house. the decision that is supported by substantial evidence indicating palm house

dedication to and regulatory standards. not only foft pezer the continued commit toment support our small businesses as they continue to recover from the pandemic but also reinforced our commitment to maintaining harmly between our permit holders and our residents. thank you for your attention. >> thank you, we have a question from commissioner transvina. >> thank you for the materials you provide. this is the first time that i think i've, the entertainment commission has been before us and i just want to, thank you for your work. what i would like for to you address is what a neighbor can expect, they call at 9:30 and they say, the windows are open, or they say, it's really loud. they call, who do they call,

311? >> they call 311 and they can file a complaint. we have the app on our phone so we receive the complaint immediately. our inspectors are on the field and they go immediately to the complaint location. >> okay, great. thank you. >> thank you, no further questions. >> okay. >> will the planning department be commenting on this case? no?

>> speaker: it's got a great atmosphere and a great community of both staff. >> thank you, can you fill out a speaker card. is there any other public comment? >> can a brief speaker state his affiliation, because he seems to be a professional. >> speaker: sof, i'm not a professional in the industry, i'm an attorney downtown and do real estate, but nothing to do with this. >> okay, thank you. >> so we have two people, jessica anne, do you want to provide public comment on zoom? >> speaker: yes, hello. >> yes, please go ahead. >> speaker: thank you, my name is jessica anne and i'm a business owner and also director for merchants association. i'm here to voice my permit for the palm house and that's on

behalf of many merchants. the palm house kbts not just dining options but also the cultural space representing asian infusion dishes. and this is important as it draws demographic to the street while growing and contributing to economic development of union street and the city of san francisco. the palm house has been a strong ally for many merchant it could be devastating if they were to shut down because traffic to the street were cinder by a single complaint. palm house and i are located, the city of sf stf and its people don't have the luxury to step in the way of business that is doing everything that they can do to survive and be part of the economic growth. so i urge to you dismiss the appeal. thank you and i yield my time.

>> thank you and we'll now hear from real regan, please go ahead. you'll have to unmute yourself. regan? you need to unmute yourself. okay, go ahead. >> speaker: yeah, regan. i want to support the palm house and please dismiss this appeal. the palm house will abide by all rules and regulations. they have first class operators, we really really need to help small business in san francisco. take a drive around san francisco, what has our city become? and who has brought us here, i'll let you answer that question.

but hopefully it will be people like yourself. so please dismiss this ridiculous appeal. thank you. >> thank you, linda ka, please go ahead. you need to unmute yourself. >> speaker: thank you, i also support the palm house, they are i've been on the street, i'm also on the neighbor, they've been on the street, i've seen a lot of you know, people coming in but they're very responsive. they're very responsible and i support granting the permit to palm house. >> okay, thank you. stacy please go ahead. >> hello. >> yes, go ahead. >> hi, i actually oppose the permit. i am a neighbor that lives

behind and i do want, we have sent in a complaint about the noise, there has been lots of noise throughout the years. and you know, even when things are shut, you still feel the base that comes through the room. our room are in the back here. i do agree with the person that was doing the complaint to not let the permit happen. i just want to go ahead and let you know that he's not the only neighbor that is upset with the noise. thank you. >> thank you, any further public comment. okay, we're going to move on to rebutle, mr. grindstaff, you have three minutes. we will not start the time until you get up here.

>> speaker: it gets hot in san francisco ever so often and it's not outside of the scope of reason that managers will default to opening those windows when you know, it gets sweltering inside on a nice sunny day so. just because some locks are on window, does not solve this issue of you know, getting them open when it's, you know, nice and hot inside. and then, i just want to touch on, you know, we've heard a lot of 'em passioned business owners including the managers themselves and you know, unfortunately, business success and you know, that can't come in the backs of residential neighbors who are being disturbed well into the night, having their quiet enjoyment of their properties being disturbed. you know, to the extent that businesses need to thrive, that's fine but they can do that while being good neighbors. so just this last point, given

all the smitions and testimony received this evening, we might ask that the board continue this proceeding until they conduct with their own equipment since lay equipment is not suitable for ensuring consistency from permit readings. instead of the front of the property which is the current situation on union street and take it from the back of the property particularly on appellant property and measure ambient during the prime productions. that could be part of the core issue, the 311 complaint that did come through, i believe i will differ to the actual report itself, i believe the call came in around 9:30 examine by 10 or 11, the

investigate came out, while there is investigators to respond to all three complaints, there is a deal and so, there may not be an accurate measurement occurring. >> what i red in the brief is that there was a concern for noise. which was general noise to servants and in a macro sense. is there a, is there a particular time of day is there a particular day of the week, where there is a obviously, time of day would be, i want to go to sleep at 10:30 and i'm

hearing the base of mentioned dj, that's the obvious. but is there a, particular day of the vehicle that is more problematic than the other? that's where i want to go and would it be obvious statement that after 10:00 o'clock it's more problematic than 4:00 o'clock. >> it tends on the weekends and towards the evening hours, but there have been instances and i believe there was public comment where a video was played, i believe it was the saint patrick's day, where it was in the middle of the day, just, it's t sounded like a nightclub. just listening to it it sounded

pretty disturbing in the middle of the day and not necessarily in compliance with the sound limit that is suppose to be in the system. >> and is there anything else other than the sound issue which is problematic that us as commissioners should be concerned to discuss in your when we're, when making our decision? >> the chief concern has always been noise and reluctance to resolve, all the ans larry pieces surrounding. >> just noise? >> right. >> okay, thank you, no further questions. we'll now hear from the permit holders.

as far as the locks if it's the middle of the day. and we're sealing the windows for live entertainment, why can't we open the windows when we don't have live entertainment. so the locks are on the window for a manager to open. so if it's 100 degree in the middle of brunch why wouldn't we open the window. if there is consequences if they do open the windows, they will not have jobs anymore. unfortunately, we are make ing all of those decisions. >> i appreciate your contributions to union street and staying alive for all the

reasons aforementioned. that's not going present a bias for me, but i appreciate it. is there a compromise decision here? that it's noise, it seems stated by council friday and saturday nights. that's where you make your money. what is that other one? other than the marina? >> that's ridiculous. >> that's city stuff, that's not palm house stuff. >> i know. even sand cam where i live in the marina is chaotic. is there a compromise opportunity that you guys see? >> look our office is i really

empathize, because our office is above a restaurant next door. there are many days that at noon i go downstairs and ask them to turn the music down somebody had turned the music too high and it was not their intention and they have some jam box. they work with me and we want to work with our neighbor. we have for the last ten years and we will continue to do so. we are willing as long as the applicant is willing to work together on this. >> i think we've already made those. we've sealed windows, locked windows to a beautiful building, we changed the appearance to our building. i don't know what else, we've taken handles off windows, we've test things alarm on manager's phones. we've done everything, besides shuteding the entire business down at 10:00 o'clock, which is

going to happen if we don't get this. so. >> okay, thank you. you can be seated. >> thank you very much. >> we'll now hear from the entertainment commission, you have three minutes. >> speaker: thank you. all right. just wanted to address some of the things that came up. in testimony, so we do not have any evidence of palm house ever hosting entertainment events without proper permits, so i just want to put that on the record, they had a jam permit during the jam permit program during the pandemic, to host their outdoor activities. let's see what else? we also have no 311 complaint history outside of the most resent history that came in, that is in our briefing. the first complaint we received was on february 24, of this year. and we responded that same

evening and in fact the outdoor speakers were on past the permissible time of 10:00 p.m. that was the only visit where they needed to remediate and they did so in realtime. we did receive complaints on march 23 and march 24 as well and the business did not host any live entertainment that weekend. so there was no evidence of late into the evening and entertainment as previously indicated by the appellant. and we also didn't receive any history from sfpd and we refer every applicant to the officer. we also have a law enforcement representing who sits on our commission who is an active member of the police department. also just wanted to address commissioners swig a couple of comments that he made. i know he said the problem is with djs which i understand that base is often times an

issue. the sound limits do account for sea waiting which is the c portion. we synch our meters with the meter of the business always and we make sure that educate all of their staff on how loud they can be. and then in terms of sound a tenuation is something na the commission was not requiring especially given the fact that we don't prescribe monetary measures as a part of our conditions but beyond that, our sound limits are based on what a premise can hold when all the windows and doors are closed so. if they did further sound, we would have grounds to go and do another sound test at that point and they could have another higher sound limit given the fact that they can contain more sound. and i want today address how we

take the sound readings, we do take them from the front of the property plain when we're taking the ambient measurements. however we do welcome doing an average between the front and the back premise if the commission allows. >> thank you for your time. >> thank you, we have commissioners from commissioner swig and commissioner eppler and commissioner transvina. >> for me it's about enforcement issue, all about sound. so if we were to approve the permit and there was a 311 call and you went out and found that, there was a, there was an abuse, yeah. >> that's what, what's the ben

--penalties and then if it happens again and again and tell us the protocol about enforcement of potential. one of the things i don't want to do is send something to the galos before they murdered somebody that would be bad behavior. somebody has to brief the law before they're sent to the galos, tell us about 1, 2, 3 if that were to occur. >> the commission was born out of the fact that the city did not have any due process around entertainment and regulating and the police department prior to the creation were going out and shutting down parties illegally, pulling equipment out of the walls this happened in the gay community. we were born out of that. so there is a lost due process.

when we receive a complaint, we go out and address it especially if it's on the weekend, we have two sound inspectors that are go out. they have all of our permits on their phones as well because our databases are all digital at this point, which is great so they're able to pull the permit on the specific location, check on all the specific conditions, every one of our permits has different conditions and they do a sound reading and they check to see all the windows and doors are closed. if they find that a permit is out of compliance, they always educate first and for most to remediate the issue in realtime so every neighbor can have that be addressed. if it's a reoccurring, our tools in our toolbox includes not only a violation if you receive three sound citations within a 90-day period, i as a director have the authority to

suspend for 15 days which has happened to several businesses in the city. not this one. if there are reoccurring issues that don't into that 90-day window, we notice that this business is a bad actor and they're not compliance, we bring them back into a commission hearing for potential reconditioning. there is a business that we limited their entertainment from 5 to 7 on fridays, because it kept happening.

>> if we move forward on this permit, how do we build in a condition that, that does what you are stating which is creating a balance or creating a standard for measuring the sound from the back? the front does not matter, it goes on union street, that's what it is. >> although you may be surprised with all the windows and doors closed we can still go conduct an am bient reading which from the back they may be in compliance, if you wanted add something you can direct entertainment commission to add, or to change the sound condition so that we're doing the measurement as an average

reading between the front of the property plan as well as the back. and we can do math to make an average of that and how we would measure that is based on article 29 of the police code ensuring that they do not exceed more than 8 decibels above that ambient, that's how we set the internal sound limit which is listed on the permit at hand. >> the reason i bring it, if pifs that neighbor, my argument would be, come on, i'm at the front. that's my main question. if we were to move forward on this and approve this permit, add a condition about a measurement of ambient sound in the back.

>> and did i hear or did i not hear? that there has not been a professional a professional sound measurement at the site? >> no, there has been. >> i think you heard that from the appellant. so we actually have a sound limit for the business for the internal sound that is in the permit itself. and it's actually quite low, that's why i make that argument that i would not be surprised that when conducting from the back, i don't think that it will change the internal limit by much.

>> i think that's what the issue is with the neighbor thinks no it's not a restaurant, it's a nightclub, even their restaurant presented live entertainment, they are focusing on live entertainment spot rather than the restaurant part and that's why i'm trying to find a.

from the back of the premise as well as the back of the premise and average the two measurement and then base our reading on that. so any language both to ambient and reading of the current standard at both the front and the back of the restaurant?

>> thank you very much. sorry for being so long winded. >> that's fine. >> in your earlier testimony you mentioned that the current permit was issued in part of the permit compliance with their jam permit earlier and you testified that there were not any complaints during that jam permit period. i want today ask was there any random monitoring or any compliance that you measured. >> to be honest, we permit over 1,000 places in the city. so if we're not receiving complaints, then you're not an issue. >> thank you. >> commissioner transvino. >> you said that no complaints. did they police respond?

>> i can look in our packet here. >> is it based on noise? is it based on entertainment? >> oh. can you. >> how does a neighbor know. the neighbor sees the window

open? >> what is a violation and what isn't? >> the violation is a they have a dj and the opens are open. >> and do you have the authority yourself to come up with something without being part of the motion? >> absolutely. and we can do that right away. >> and based on something tonight,. >> yes, and i can do that without my commission. >> commissioners this matter is submitted. >> commissioners let's start the deliberations on this end with commissioner transvina. >> thank you, i want to thank every one's for their presentations. i do think there may have been

some violations at the beginning of the situation. but the fact that we have locks on windows and we have the knowledge to from the commission to the neighbors here's what happens when you see a problem, here's what a problem is, here's what you can do when there is a problem and i think very good faith insurance from the commission that they will address the problems and they have the authority to deal sound testing. so i would uphold the permit as issued. >> i'm extremely hardened by both the testimony and the business owner and entertainment commission that there is a robust system in

place here to address any future complaints or problems, i don't think, i don't think it's necessary to put any continues on this permit and if the neighbors do have issues in the future, there are plenty of way to see do this. ultimately this comes down to just being, you know, a major city and i do comiserate, my office is on top of a music, it's part of parcel of being in a city as far as i'm concerned. and if there are complaints, i think there is a good path to resolving those. for those reasons i would support a motion to deny the appeals, the appeal.

>> i agree, i do understand that sound can be a weird things. i've been graced with some beautiful concert that somehow tele ported from my doorstep from at&t park about a mile and a half mile from me. i know that alameda has had to deal with the portola festival, given weather, sound does do weird stuff. but i agree with my commissioners that we have a process that is clear to make sure that the current permit which has conditions on it is followed and followed to the letter. and i think that the testimony shows that the commission has, or the department has an interest in making sure that that is done and i think that the permit holders have

demonstrated that they want to make sure that that is done. look i know that mistakes are going to happen and i hope that the parties have grace in fixing those mistakes and living with the mistakes. but i do think that you're on a course to compliance and i do think that you know, we should uphold the permit as it currently stands. >> we don't have evidence of abuse, as sitting on this board for quite a while, whether it's entertainment from it or other things, we do have histories of chronic abuse. so we know the difference between chronic abuse and what is not chronic abuse. and given that there is no testimony, we have a stack of paper this tall that these guys are bad actors, we don't have that. and we're a reason to believe that these are responsible

operators. second of all, they've taken the initiative on nailing or putting the locks on the windows, taking the initiative to, try to mitigate the problem. if we wanted to further satisfy the appellants, we might put that sound measurement from the front of the house to the back of the house. hearing the feedback from fellow commissioners, they're not in favor of that. we can do that to add some further consideration. although i really appreciate the presentation bit entertainment commission that, they work real hard to take care of potential bad actions within their permit use. so i don't think it's necessary but i would, you know, i might suggest that.

>> the testimony presented, i want to thank the commission for your testimony. i think so much of what happens in this room, can be resolved from what we heard from the commission. i think that the potential issues here are on the radar now of the city. so i conquer that decisions are not necessary.

with that, i move to deny the appeal. >> we have a motion from president lopes to deny. >> on that motion. >> aye. >> aye. >> aye. >> aye. >> aye. >> that motion carries 5-0 and the appeal is denied. thank you. we're now moving on to item number 5. ben marcus will arz and jennifer and alice versus entertainment commission subject property grant avenue between california street and washington street. appealing the issuance to line dance me of a one-time entertainment event permit. april 6 to march 30th, this is permit number ecote24-046 and we'll hear from the appellants first.

>> speaker: hi my name is jennifer and i'm representing myself. my business is called jen's jen located on grand avenue. i'm also representing the sue young they own between grant avenue. and 22 senior apartment union upstairs. and first thing i want to tell you, i don't hate online dancing, i'm chinese, i like to--i'm not hating them.

the only thing when the street close saturday and sunday, so my customer is mostly tourist. when they drive into the china town gate and to the sacramento street and street is closed. and they are not familiar with the china town how to turn around and came back. so they go around there, and it's very important to us, small business, depends very high of the sales the percentage from that two days. and also the senior citizen up stair, my building, on the top of my radio store, they are concerned about noise.

so my suggestion is park around that area. and they can practice or they can perform any there. sxl my customer used to hear the drumming and say what is going on, i would love to send them to the park without closing the street all the merchants and right now it's very tough time for us to survive. and we do need more tourist to come over. that's what i want. >> speaker: good evening, i'm alice long owner at blossom company. our business was started by my parents in 1985, i grew up in china and have been a member of this community for 40 years.

we promote chinese tea culture to our guest on a daily basis. for the record, i'm not oppose today line dance. i support chinese culture and i have mutual respect for line dance. considering the impact to noise and accessibility the current permit provides a unreasonable frequency and venue, i'm also concerned in the way the permits are a inquired. there is very little attempt to consider our community in the application process. we rarely receive advance notice or dialogue. also print thed material is often provided in english, even though the majority of the community members speak chinese. we have attempted to settle with line dance multiple times,

with supervisor peskin's office and also with the oewd. france--line dance me, that's verbally offered to reduce their frequency and duration but has never provided a settlement in writing when asked. on april 12, we presented our own settlement terms based on line dance, we propose ducing the permit to 3 p.m. to 5 p.m. sundays only since there are no residential units in this area. lion dance declined our community. we now require yourself to solve this issue.

>> speaker: good evening, i'm ben marcus will yards i'm the director of business. i want to start by apologizing to norman as well as the lion dance members. there is been miss tension, we respect the amount of work that you put in, you know, it's very impressive and we have nothing against line dancing, as. this is more about the permit that was issued. in our opinion like alice mentioned, the permit, we find that the duration frequency is not reasonable. it's asking other members of the community including businesses and other residents who face directly on to grant avenue to listen to sound levels that often exceed 100 decibels, we welcome an inspection on the sound asking to us deal with a closure on

our street that forces us, that clocks our access to our businesses for loading and unloading inventory that blocks residential access, especially for elderly residents who have, you know, care takers or family members visiting them and in addition, asks us to tolerate these elevated noise levels for an approved, pardon me, an approved period of nine hours per day. we realize that the line dancing does not occur for nine hours a day which is another reason that we're appealing this permit. not only is it unreasonable to ask the community to tolerate this frequency and time, his performances only last about 30 minutes to him. and so we've made efforts to try to compromise by reducing and venue. but yeah, that's our position

here. >> hi, my name is david ho, we've been here over 50 years, many know about our family for a long time. and everything is peaceful, residents should have their space back. >> thank you, that's time. >> thank you, you'll have more time in rebuttal. >> briefly point of information for our executive director, the issue of language of material that earlier stages in this issue was just raised. can you say a word of any translation service that's are available or offered. >> we didn't receive a specific request for an interpreter, i did range for one, unfortunately they have to leave soon, so we will not have one available. >> thank you. >> okay, we do have questions from commissioner transvina and

commissioner swig. >> i have a question about, is there anything particularly unique about the block that the permit applies to? >> so in the past, the permit holder has performed on a single block to our understanding, expand up to three blocks. in the past i believe they were approved for three blocks but only used one block. and you know. >> you've noted that one of the blocks at least has seen yor residents as well as businesses. is there any reason why that you're aware of that you're block is unique and the line dances can't be performed on flat ground elsewhere? >> like why the performance needs to happen where it occurs? >> yes. >> to our understanding, there is not. and we suggested to the applicant, the permit holder before is it possible to move it to ports square to move it

somewhere that is not in the public right away and to our understanding he's not interested in the option. >> the other thing, i have is unless there is anybody else that wants to comment. >> many resident i know, they say he's enough, coed is control now. they don't need that, many people want the street back. not only the merchant but also the residents. many people do not live in china town or work in china town like us 7 days a week. they don't understand. that's the point. >> okay, the other question i had in any of the meetings that you've had in relation to the permit, have they been available to non english speakers?

>> for me to understand mostly, they will hang out, the piece a paper in english and the chinese. and make sure what day they close down what time to what time, this one we did not receive any papers. so just very surprised come up with mta perm, the sign on the street. come up saturday and sunday close to 6:00. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> commissioner swig. >> i wanted to clarify a point if i can, we did receive one piece of paper out reach from the applicant regarding the entertainment commission hearing, the approval hearing. that piece of paper was only neng and like we've mentioned, there is a majority who speak chinese and solely chinese, so it is an issue of language barrier.

this appeal is about pael hearing all in english, not a word of chinese. >> we do have a tag line at the bottom, that you need a interpreter, please contact. okay, commissioner swig. >> so first of all, thank you for your keeping china town alive, i grew up here. you know, come on, i grew up in san francisco. china town is the best. it's one of the crown jewels of san francisco, without china town, without fisherman's wharf without the golden gate bridge, san francisco would not be san francisco. so glazesing to you for hanging in during this most difficult period, keeping it alive and keeping it vibrant, it's a wonderful thing. and i'm going to offer the same compliment to lion, keeping the

tradition alive, keeping it vibrant which is why i'm frustrated that this should be a love fest not a conflict. so my goal is to turn it into a love fest a little bit. thank you for that, and congratulations to the night market and the success of the night market. and that ads to san francisco celebrating chinese culture, celebrating china town, thank you very much. now let's get down to the business at hand. so duration, frequency and climbing seem to be the key issues, right? and locations, all right. so the location that has been suggested is the 600 block, correct me if i'm wrong, is that california vament o? --sacramento.

>> that's the 600 block. >> so 600 block, same area garage is an alternative but it was mentioned by yourself 600 block would be okay, all right. that's number one. timing, saturday, sunday, i understand are the big days but somebody mentioned it would be okay if this occured on sunday so that, this is a great opportunity. for me, i serve the chairman a long time ago, but i was there on the board for i don't know, 20 years? 25 years? maybe 30 years. but building energy and tourism was a consistency is very important. so having the line dance would be a real cool thing for tourist which would bring business which would help san francisco so it ties together, but sunday would be your preferable day. >> speak into the microphone.

>> sunday is also a day to attract people, it's our quaiest day on the street. on saturday mornings and the beginning of the weekend most family need to deliver food to their residents upstairs or pickup their parents. david's mom is 80 and goes to work with him daily. saturday is the day that most people go shopping for food or go shopping into china town. >> thank you. so we have 600 block, we have sunday. okay. it was mentioned i believe that, and afternoon period that the line dance takes approximately 30 minutes. so two-hour period on a sunday afternoon, is that where we are on this? >> that is where we would stand. i think there is a bit of a complication, i was reading the

terms requires them to maintain that closure regularly and the closure is granted from 9:00 am until 7:00 p.m. so if he's not able to main that permit. my point is, his performance takes 30 minutes but required to maintain a 9-hour closure in order to retain his permit. >> okay and we can have a conversation with the entertainment commission when they step to the mic on that subject. that will be a question that would i like to ask. okay. so it's, you know, two-hour expectation between is it and 3? what would be your preferences as the operators in the district? >> so if a permit were issued,

your preference of a permit being issued would be, restriction, could it happen every week? >> we are settlement was every sunday. every sunday. >> so every sunday, 3-5, 600 block of grand avenue which is between california and sacramento. anything that we have left out as far as your needs? >> yeah, so the duration was also going to be amended from may 1 this year until the end of july, july 31 so shortening from a year long to four-month. >> and if there was a flexibility to go from may 1, to october 1. september, tourism. i know the biggest months of the year, that's when the hotels are full even better than summertime because conventioned come in. god help us, or god bless us if

the conventions if they come back. but would that be something that you would not push back on? >> we're open to dialogue on all of those points. the applicant had suggested that he was willing to reduce the needed time of the permit only to the weekends of may and the first week end of june because he already has events for aepi month. we're proposing an additional month and almost two months. >> i really appreciate your can der and we'll have further conversation after the permit. >> thank you, you can be seated. we'll now hear from the permit

holder, norman lau. >> thank you, for taking the time. i'm norman lau about three years ago, we were honored to take over the street closure and live entertainment from san francisco china town merchant in order to revitalize china town. would i like to address some of the points raised. one, noise to disturbance. we adhere to the permit hours of operation and ensure that our performance right side conducted within reasonable noise levels, nor have we ever intend today conduct 9 hours of drumming, it's a combination of visual arts by our volunteer students. two, traffic congestion, we

have limented our street closure to 700 block from sacramento to j street. it allows through traffic, he liv ating traffic congestion. 3, contrary to the concerns our preference on the avenue has been beneficial to locate at business for community engagement. we collaborate closely to ensure that our activity comply rather than distract from their op raisesing. four, impact on public safety? we prioritize safety during our performances, stationing volunteers around the areas to maintain a clear path for emergencies. secondly, would i like to recognize and thank the volunteers, dance and community groups, many of which are student volunteers that have participated in the street closure event that help ensure the safety and contributed to its event and facilities over

the last three years. volunteer groups are galeo interact, lower red cross, lower, george washington red cross, jefferson key cross, low fill am, lincoln, lowell groove initiative. balboa hip-hop, george washington k-pop. homestead from cupertino. community graourntionz china town coalition, apa, family services, imagination winter wonderland. information center, china town photographic society who have been using the street closure with us. these are the performers and operators who have contributed to the chair base program. i would like to invite some of

the students to come up and speak, so anthea can you come up? >> speaker: i love lion dance. do you like lion dance in china down. >> speaker: i want to do lion dance in china town. thank you. >> speaker: gaotd evening, i'm 17-year-old and if the fall i'll be at the university of california of san diego. i've been performing with lion dance me for nine years now. through performing with china

town, i found a music connected not only with my heritage but with peers and san francisco. i'm blessed and honored to share china's culture and to bring the community joy. i believe that our culture needs to be celebrated. when i speak with members from the audience who watch our shows, many don't know what lion dance is. it's a great opportunity to open a new frontier to explore various asian cultures, art and cuisine and traditions. not only a sense of community but valuable source of education to visitors and tourist who come in, to learn about asian culture. educating those who frequent and visit china town and to build a better shine a town. --china town. thank you for your time and listening with open hearts. thank you. >> speaker: good evening, i'm

winston and i'm a second year newsinger student at the university of san francisco. as a member of lion dance, i've performed as a perform and her volunteer for the past three years. participating in knees events, i was able to reconnect and be involved and reconnect with the community. even know, i more likely stay indoors due to technology, lion dance, i'm also somebody that intends to stay indoors. then kaourjd me to come out to china town. i felt a sense of community where i saw members and community leaders as a second family or friends. i hope that these events can continue to be available to our current and generation to see loving and accepting china town community that i know. thank you.

>> speaker: good evening, commissioners my name is jordan lee, i'm also known as singer along lion dance me. i'm a 17-year-old student at lowell and you'll be attending university of california berkeley this fall. i stand with lion dance me. this was a very beginning of my career as a musician. 2022 was a pivotal year in our world as we started to overcome the coronavirus pandemic. at this time, many were struggling to open the businesses. and community began to experience prejudice. they performed line dancing in major traditional element of chinese culture. i want today help the effort of

restoring the live aniness of china town. i joined as a singer, sharing the music i produce. >> 30 seconds. >> we performed from 2022 until now, proudly celebrating our culture and community. what i find so amazing about this organization is the people. most of the people of lion dancing are students just like me and they're already making an impact. i realize that every member is kind, talented and devoted and with that i have grown a connection and found a sense of belonging, we carry our energy to every visiting china town. >> thank you. >> thank you, the time is up and we do have some questions from commissioner swig and commissioner transvina. >> i understand you grew up in china town. >> born and raised.

>> congratulations, as somebody who was born in china town, i congratulate you for continue iting the tradition and awareness of history of their culture it's a great thing and congratulations to everybody who came here tonight. to celebrate your culture and san francisco and conditionation of that culture, including your own personal education as well as the greater community that includes a tourist, that will hopefully come back to san francisco. as i mentioned before, you all seem to be on the same side of the appellant and the permit holders when it comes to the health and welfare of the chinese community especially the chinese community within china town and i hope that we can walk out of here having

more bonded together in a common view to move this experience forward. one thing that bugs is the san francisco has not continued the culture: the chinese community raises the bar. when keeping china town also, the merchants open.

now let's get down to business, okay. we've heard that, that >> it's perfect for us. and our location of our studio is right on commercial street so demographically it makes sense for us, right. and pushing us to sunday next to a church, i don't know how that looks next to a church and on a slope right. and if you're talking about traffic wise, if you think about it, if you come down

grand avenue and hook right on sacramento, you can go back around and by pass our one block, right. if you go on california street, you make that left, you cannot go back, you're going on top of the tunnel. so people are leaving for sure, so you're pushing us on a block that is worse for you as a merchant. i don't see how that makes sense, if pifs a merchant that would push me to another block. >> 3 to 5 on a sunday performance. >> our performance is only about half an hour, so our goal is to you know, grow this shared street closure and to be able to offer more and bring more people in the community. i'm driven to help china town. being born and raises i know the ins and outs of china town more than anything, i've been at the summer programs and everything growing through this.

my dad is a big huge political figure that i follow in. my see foos who raised me. i feel like i owe my life to china town in a sense, it saved my life. all of my actions speak louder than what i say to you, the cults are in the pudding in the community. >> thank you for that. and i appreciate that, i've already given you the affirmation for your citizenship and your participation. >> okay. >> 3 to 5 on sunday, any problem with that? >> i think that we want to do saturdays instead of sundays because that works out better for us. and like i said, the street closure is not something that we're looking to just do lie ons dance on.

it's street closure just as it is across many other neighborhoods in san francisco. >> just out of interest if you had a choice, of doing every sunday every sunday or being restricted to every other sunday and having it on the 700 block, because it would hurt the business of, your fellow practitioners within china town? are you willing to make a compromise to go to every sunday and move a block one way or the other or move to a time that helps the merchants on the 700 block? >> it does not work for me on sundays, yeah. >> just does not work for you? >> and the people complaining are on the 800 block. they're not on the 700 block. >> thank you for that. >> the timing during the during

the year, they offer a may 1 through the end of july, of course i countered immediately and i said how about the tourist that come in and in september and october. what are your calendar needs? obviously, january and february is a little cold who needs that. >> what they're offering is very last-minute, that's what i heard of it yesterday, it was not very clear. what i offered from the very beginning after we had the town hall meeting, i said how about we split it. i would do one day a week, one day a week, saturday, right. and i can just run through 8 months instead of 12 months so that is march through october, because winter months is hold, and lunar year is a lot going on, i'm very busy around that time. and i feel i'm coming to a

compromise by doing one day instead of both days. >> okay, so we are may, march through october, you're at the 700 block, that's your preference. you would rather do saturday and what about the timing of 3 to 5 of the afternoon regardless of the day. >> regardless of the day, so as i mentioned, our goal is to grow the street closure, right, just like any shared space that it's not just about lion dance and we also have other activations and things going on. we do have ideas for bringing other things in, basically looking for some more support and fund to go access those types of things and bring that to a bigger scale. >> okay, give me some hours please. >> as far as the hours, i think where we're at is pretty much what we've been closing down,

10 to 5:00 o'clock, those are the hours that we have. >> any flexibility on shrinkage of 10 to 5, 2 to 5 thinking in terms of a settlement. >> so you're in stringent on 10 to 5. >> right. >> okay, i just wanted the commission to see. maybe somebody will move, who knows. i give it to commissioner lemberg. >> thank you, commissioner and thank you mr. lau, the value that you're adding to the community is undenial by the act that you have 100 people here on a school night. your work is very much appreciated by every one on this panel as well as the appellant who adverse you in this particular matter.

i think i can safely say that every one in this room and in the city appreciates the work that you're doing and i personally even, i believe you rented a space in the embarcadero during lunar new year month and i was, very much enjoying looking at all of the, all of the supplies that you were storing recently. i do share some concerns that commissioner swig was kind of poking around in. in particular the shared spaces. what is else is going on in the shared spaces other than your line dancing. >> there is families that come out and share the space. there is basically, a safe way for people to walk around

without cars being there, right. we've had other activations there but due to other reasons of funding and things like that, things have changed. so you know, we hope that, that will change for us very shortly, you know. so we do have things in place but i cannot tell you what the intent is i just have to proof it. >> right. my question, is there seat thating is put out during grant avenue during the street closure? is there other entertainment or other things going on? >> there is ambiant music that we put out and the kids are practicing and the we do the show at 4 p.m. that's what is going on. and when other people want to use the area to we allow them to use as well.

>> is the 4:00 p.m. time for the show consistent? >> yeah, it's pretty consistent. >> obviously, weekends generally make sense all of your volunteers seem to be in school during the week. you know, i'm a little bit agnostic, in the saturday versus the sunday issue. i like commissioner swig, my goal, i think everybody is on the same page in many ways here tonight. my goal for this evening is to find a solution that works the best for every one involved that allows you to continue the amazing thing that you're doing and protect the interest of the near by of the near by businesses and residents who are bringing, you know, i would say earnest concerns here as well. you know, i certainly know grant avenue is the probably the most difficult place to park in the city.

out of all neighborhoods and corridors. as has been stated by the appellant, and residents as well. so, you know, i definitely do have questions for the entertainment commissioner as well which i'll get to in a few minutes but. >> what i'll ask you right now, i understand your vision for the shared spaces expansion. my question is what the need is for the full shut down with the fact that there is nothing else going on other than your lion dances. giving the fact that the merchants are here protesting here a little bit.

what is the need for the closed down before there are con scaoet plans and funding in place for a larger activation? >> i guess for the street closure, since it was handed out to me. i didn't know much about it, i thought it's a duty, i must keep this closed at this times, flexible and time can be an option, right but i feel like, not given information on how things are working and told everything that i found out is through public notice. and each time there was public notice, i wented and talked to the merchants or whoever directly, and hey, is this issue, they never came to me. there was no noise issue, none of this told to me. so now, i'm trying to understand the situation to

see, hey, we only do 4 p.m. show, we can do shorter hours if that's the case but we know that we're also growing the street closure as well. so if that's something that is flexible, if he's going to do something later on, is there flexible to extend those hours, no problem. >> okay and then the other thing i wanted to ask about. i did notice this myself and the appellant brought it up which is the communication on the hearing. i did notice that as well. can you speak a little bit as to why that was only sent out in english? >> i didn't send out, i would have to reference somebody that is probably online how that gone, right. i was not the one that send it out for our organization but somebody can explain that later on, do you want her to come on now. >> i think that would be helpful. >> who is that?

>> julie. >> what is her last name? >> may. >> julie may, are you here on zoom? i see her, she is in the public comment. julie may. >> speaker: okay, can you hear me okay. >> please go ahead. >> speaker: hi, my name is julie. thank you commissioners for giving me a chance. i'm julie and i'm a volunteer with lion dance me, starting the leter we had edited in english only because it was the requirement bit entertainment commission. we did have chinese volunteers handout these letters and they

were met with some feedback by the people, the resident and the merchants. so we've been trying to be open for dialogue around the permit. that's why we provided it only in english initially, i do recognize that we should have provided chinese translation and the conversation has been on going and we've had more chinese volunteers come out to speak with merchants and residents. and handing them out directly to the people on grant avenue as highlighted. >> thank you, anything further? >> thank you for your testimony and for engaging so many of our high school students from all over the city. i know it's very important. and i know they do not only perform but do other tasks and

have responsibilities that help them for the future. i want to thank you for that. also i want to observe that this body respects the issue involved here and historically san francisco permits, back in the 1800s, were the lead of anti asian, some of the ordinance came out of city hall anti chinese and they went to supreme court and people fought, so it's, we want to resolve this respecting all the sides of the concerns that are here. and specifically, what i don't, if you could elaborate is, what is your interest in street closure as opposed to lion dance and all the other things that you do? >> well i'm very youth driven because i have so many programming and i want to bring

in entertainment, i want today have a night market, i want today do a lot of things but for one reason or another, in my ability and outside of my ability, right, i was not able to execute those things within, you know, a certain time. but we managed to still have the street closure, we still bring in a crowd, right. even when we rehearse during the day, we still draw a crowd. we keep people messaging, when are we going to be out there and when is our show. we are a draw, we know that. and we understands, and explaining we're at a loss of money and you know, this street closure hurts us. and that first week i went up to them and i said i don't want that to happen. i went directly to them and said, what happens if we, just,

i, i close the street, i put in money, i put in my own time, i lose out anyway. maybe i should not even do this, right. so at that point, it just felt, you know, i felt, i felt for them, right. in that sense, right. but then after seeing petitions, seeing the appeal and understanding where this is going, i'm like well, this is kind of a livelihood for well being of my career does not align with that. and now, i'm going to reach out to other people and talk to them, and realize, no you're doing a great thing. this is not something that people are losing money. there are merchants that are thriving through this and saying this is good. so i do have merchants that tells me that this works out better for them and they see more traffic. >> so acknowledging all the important things that the organization does, as we have,

can, bringing in tourist and dollars and residents into china town in san francisco, opportunities for young people showing the lion dance et cetera. can that be accomplished at ports of square or on some street that does not affect both senior resident sxz merchants? >> i believe it can but if we go to ports mont squai, that's more like a living room for some people, the elder that are there and they would not like the noise. but yeah, we can be open to the option to see what it is. if it's only lion dance related, yes, we do not have to be in the street or practice in the street. we're looking at it as a shared piece that we want to grow. just like we see the night market growing. we want to bring people into our community, that's our goal. >> so the permit is 10 to 5?

>> permit technically it goes 9 to 7 but we start closing at 9 and we open back up at 5:00 o'clock. so roughly 10 to 5. >> so even if you restricted the performances from 3 to 5, would you need more time to set up and close down. >> yeah. >> so we'll be really talking about, if it was two-hour block of performances, there need to be time added into the permit beforehand and afterwards to allow the performances to happen, right? >> i'm just wondering about how parking works in that case, it's going to be clear so we do the performance. but if you just put up a sign at 3:00 o'clock, there is a lot of cars that are going to be

parked there and getting towed. usually when i see a street closure, they have, or that time. >> i asked this only to try to get a sense of my colleagues. if we're going to make a decision.

>> can you tell us the extent of the permit that is before us as it relates to closing these streets. >> it does not close the street. it's just the entertainment. >> the streets are going to be closed anyway. >> saturdays and sundays. >> so either way. >> either way the streets closed. >> they're closed. >> so the issue is, well i will not say what the issue is, but it seems to me, the issue would be noise for the merchants and

trapssinger, traps if the, if the dancers are there it's easier or harder for people to come in to the store. thank you. >> okay, thank you. i don't see any further questions, you can be seated. we'll now hear from the entertainment commission. >> i just have a question, the issue is the street issue or the sound permit. >> there is been no appeal of the street issue right now we're reviewing the permit issued by the entertainment commission. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> speaker: good evening, again commissioners president lopez. i'm here to provide an overview of our resent decision by the entertainment commission regarding lion dance one time event permit here to address any concerns as previously discussed during the previous appeal, our mission is two-fold

to promote the culture and economic enrichment of san franciscans and visitors through vibrant entertainment offering while safeguarding the welfare of our activities. the commission issues permits to regulate time and place and manner of amplified sound activity as defined in the police code. one such permit allows for entertainment at temporary events such as concerts. in 2021, we enact thed the legislation based on certain criteria, including requiring a commission hearing. we refer to this as-time outdoor permit. our permitting process involves rigorous review and community out reach to ensure that they

align for the revision for responsible and inclusive entertainment. they permit was carefully evaluated by the commission considering factors such as feasibility completeness and community impact. following thorough review and neighborhood out reach, it was approved on march 19th, 2024 with appropriate conditions to address concerns. it's important to note the commission's decision was based on the information that we had at the time. the appeal raised several issues including concerns about community representation and impact of street closure of local businesses. regarding community representation while the commission strives to engage all stakeholders, we rely on on accurate feedback. in the case of this permit, the

commission was not made aware of any opposition of the nor thing in china town until the permit was granted. we believe that lion dance did submit proof of that out reach efforts within 250 feet of their entertainment premise. using our letter template that included the commission meeting date, time and location as well as how to contact us. however, the commission acknowledges the importance of language accessibility and commits to improving community by supporting applicant in getting translations completed in these neighborhoods. these are available at the request of the permit applicant, however we're going to pay much better attention to this in the future. i also do want to acknowledge that the appellant confirmed that they received this letter.

the appellant expressed concerns about sound levels and posing a threat to public safety and well being. however it's essential to clarify the permit was issued with pretty stringent noise restrictions. the commission has enforcement mechanisms and to address ensuring accountability and compliance with sound regulations. specifically, we have inspectors working in the field that will test and monitor and work with the permit holder so they understand how to keep this this activity and for this event we're happy to go out in the first event and i will consider adding a condition here for anytime that there is not a dance activity happening, and they just want to host am

bien sound, we can continue them to ensure that that happens. overall, the commission has the ability to recondition and amend the permit after its been issued based on evidence of compliance or neighborhood issues. last leta pel ant highlight street closure sighting challenges with access and operations. while the commission acknowledges it's important to note that the street closures call ubded jurisdiction of--and the appeal has closed. entertainment activity and we don't have the ability to change the days and hours, however we're open to change the days and hours of entertainment. the commission request that the board of appeal uphold the grant of this permit and we would appreciate the board's

help with mediating. we recognize the importance of addressing community concerns and commit today participating in a dialogue here a compromise for all parties involved. we can ensure that san francisco continues to thrive as a destination for entertainment. i'm here to take any questions. >> thank you. commissioner swig, commissioner eppler, and commissioner lemberg and transvina all have questions. >> language of what was going on in the street, that's a problem, it's not a criticism

but it's a learning curve. >> yes, learning experience. >> who occupies the neighborhood and what language they speak. >> yep. >> okay, so. you heard me go down the laundry list, so we have a, you know, a location issue, 600 or 700 block. we have a day of the week issue, saturday or sunday. we have a timing of of when this might be available restricted of those 3 to 5 in the afternoon as or brad as 10 to 5 during the day.

--push the button, it intrigues me that the cart was placed before the horse, or you know, as mta closed the streets,

we're we have a jurisdiction relate today mta already closed the street so tough luck. how does that, if we, get down to if we get these parties or if we mandate these parties, we can go either way, by the way on both sides, we can mandate here or you can really help us get to a resolution by agreeing it's just a advertisement in the middle of my questioning. but then what do we do with an issue of a permit that does not fit the condition of the entertainment? >> unless they had approved so we do need the land use approval prior to being the

issue of entertainment. >> but in this case, the mta permit seems far grander than what this permit is going to end up with conditions. this permit is going to end up with conditions that is going to say may to october or maybe it's going to say june to august, i don't know that yet. we're formulating but if we go in one of those directions, then we have an out of synch mta permit? do we not? educate us about that and how

that mta permit is not over here when in fact the terms and conditions of the entertainment permit is over here. >> i don't necessarily think that it will be out of synch. and i don't know what the due process was up leading up to this hearing and how they made that determination. but they did make it over the last 3 plus years, right? at first without all of the required due process but last year there was a permit that was issued for the entire year by way of s scott as well for the same days and times, right? and this is not unique to china town, there is other areas that

are the same, thinking about filmore and northbeach, so. >> it's not unusual. >> not unusual. especially post pandemic, yeah. >> okay, are we going in or since i'm been asking all the questions about that, are we going in a correct and direction or direction that you can enforce? at this point by the line of questioning related to what street, what time, what months et cetera? >> yes, as long as you are not expanding the street closure to go into a different location because we don't have jurisdiction over that obviously, but we can certainly support educating back and forth on whatever you want to do for time place and manner within the closure relative to entertainment and amplified sound. so one of my suggestion if you

wanted make sure if you wanted to safeguard some of the sound issues is limit the entertainment itself to specific days and hours if you're choosing, we can regulate that. and beyond that, we can issue a secondary sound limit just for fewer prerecorded amplified sound that should really should maintain meaning that it should be measured from about 25 feet away and should not bother anybody outside of that footprint. >> okay, one of the other things that concerned me about open-endedness, is right now we're talking about lie ons dance me and lion dancing yet, and permit holders, i've got other ideas in mind. i'm a little bit uncomfortable, i've got other ideas when i don't know what that is.

should we worried about that as a commission? and should we be putting on restrictions restriction ons this permit limited to lie i on dance me which is the spiter of our conversation tonight and leave a condition that opens it for a further, for further activity subject to the jurisdiction in whims of entertainment commission. >> you can certainly do that, so that you're prescribing this permit so it's just going to be regulating entertainment activities so specific time which ex clue dance performance with associated sound as oppose today having an open and ended window like having a speaker going. >> so you'll help us with the language? those are my concerns, thanks very much.

: >> no problem. >> commissioner bem lettering. >>--lemberg. >> thank you. this body has been dealing with issued with of pandemic era policies and how they those work in post pandemic era. this seems like another one. i'm a little bit perplexed. knowing that we don't have jurisdiction, it is limited what we can do. the shared issue, kind of carrying on piggy backing on what i was asking mr. lau earlier which is regarding, the use of the weekend apart from the lions dance, this 10 to 7

closure on this block of grant avenue. you know, i guess how does it compare to other shared spaces in the city on commercial corridors? is there some sort of requirement for a certain level of activities during those shared spaces? >> not that i know of. i think a lot of line of questioning, it would be going to towards sfmta. i don't know how i answer that. >> i think that outside of having an appeal filed for that street closure permit, i think that potentially the permit holder can potentially rescind. >> so the bigger issue, i'm kind of glomg on here, is i can see a different set of

circumstances where the merchants who are filing this appeal could be in favor of the street closure if there was a lot more going on if it was drawing in members of the xhien a town community into the space. but, my concern is what mr. lau is talking about that there is amplified music at ambient music all the while, all of the merchants are on the block are dealing with the parking being shut down every week end day for a year which is a lot. that is objective a lot to handle here. and i'm trying to figure out what the best way to kind of i think we're trying to figure out what the best way to compromise all of this would be also knowing that we can't impact the street shut down at all. but just, i mean, what we have

tonight is just the ability to deal with the entertainment portion, the sound, you know, the amplified sound and the entertainment portion of it. just working within those boundaries, you know, what what can or should we do to protect the merchant's interest in something that they don't seem to be highly in favor of. >> outside of being able to change the street closure this evening, which we can't this evening. it's just looking at the timing and sound limits that we provide within that timing. and kind to piggy back about other shared closures that have been occurring for four years. i do think thinking in my head

of others, the glue is sometimes entertainment, often times it's merchants coming together and hosting activities, often times we see farmers market where they add entertainment or amplified sound activity on top that of that. so this is unique in that sense. >> thank you and formulating more stuff but i'm going to pass it to commissioner eppler for now. >> my line of questioning is similar to commissioner lemberg and i'm thinking back of patrol space. we had a cafe that got permit because they covered the entertainment. so this is similar this is just the entertainment piece.

>> if, if there is, if the permit holders is able to seek an amendment to the street closure permit or is it a rescind and then reapply, do you have any idea what that process looks like from the commission's participation? >> my staff just corrected me, we are voting in a new member which is fantastic.

>> well you may having to vote on something. >> i have not had to attend one in many years. can you reframe that again. >> have you seen, i mean, are there do people amend their permits? is there an amendment process? i know it's not your department. >> not that i have heard, but usually issues come up where mta will hear of issues from community members. >> all right, thank you so much. >> commissioner transvino. >> thank you for your testimony and testimony to where we are in this process and i share the frustration, we have the wrong agency in front of us and the

wrong permit. and the merchants that ship has sailed with the mta perm pit, i believe. >> at least for this year. >> at least for this year. perhaps the dancers can go to the mt a and they'll be forced to reckon with. for us to get into the vair us issues of--various issues of 3 to 5, 600 grant. >> normally that's something that my commission spends time thinking about. >> you have the expertise and you have the ability to werer there is one problem on the side of the other, people can go to you. >> ideally. >> you've gotten the message

about the need for more language and et cetera, but, over period of time, you are, your agency is able to deal with the problems and you do have, the stick if the permit holder is not cooperative, as you said, your commission has the ability to revise and reconsider et cetera. >> speaker: understood. >> >> so i am inclined to have the entertainment commission, revisit this. >> we'll be happy to. we can place it on may 7th. >> and workout the issues rather than us do it, that's where i'm at. >> sure, and that's something that if an appeal had not been

filed but we did hear from a ton of merchants, that there was an issue, it's an ability to bring them back for a hearing and recondition the permit, if that's the direction, we can do that. >> okay, thank you. i don't see any further questions, so you can be seated. and before we get to public comment, we're going to take a five-minute biobreak. thank you so much for your patience. [ >> okay, welcome back to the april 12717, 2024 meetling of the san francisco board of appeals. we're now continuing on item number 5, this is appeal 24-202 p and we're he public comment

portion. how many people want to provide public comment? please raise your hand. so two people. okay. and what about on zoom? four people. okay, we do have a long agenda, president lopez, i recommend that you limit public comment. other people want to do it as well. we have a full agenda and full room. >> can we get a show of hands again if you would like to provide public comment? >> and we do have 29 attendees on zoom. i would recommend one minute. >> i think we should do that. so in the interest of time. >> okay, everybody who wants to provide public comment, line up along the wall. we want an ordererly passion, after you're done speaking, hand your card to alex. >> yes, the cards are right here.

>> you can come up and begin speaking. when you're done, grab one of the speaker card and hand it to alex. >> speaker: good evening, i'm shannon and i'm a merchant in san francisco china town, i'm on the 900 block of grant avenue. i just became a legacy business two years ago. and i just wanted to say that we love the lion dance and all the performances. we've never seen so many people come back, especially young people in the community and i think it's a great platform for everybody, i mean a lot of businesses have shut down. and i hope it keep going. >> thank you, and if you can give him a speaker card. as you walk up, just grab it. and then if you can come forward with the pink. young lady. >> speaker: good evening, commissioners. my name is jennifer i'm here to

urge to you to appeal the entertainment permit for lion dance me. i've been hearing a lost things but i have a three minute but now short today one minute so i don't think i can read that. i've been speak froming my heart. i've been seeing lion dance grow for the last three years. they were there to promote china town business and look at all the kids here, they're here to support the community. they're not here to destroy any merchants. so i want you to really consider this and give them a space so they can perform, they can enjoy the community and serve the community and learn how to be part of the community. that's one of my message i want to tell you, thank you very much. >> so for the people standing against the wall, you need to walk forward, if you're on the phone. we have a long hearing, we can't wait. you have one minute.

>> okay, can somebody translate for her. >> i'll translate. sgh. ahead, you get two minutes since you're getting a translation. >> speaker: [speaking chinese]

>> you have a minute to translate. >> yes, go ahead. >> translator: i'm a senior mom who is the youngest student. athena and myself were attracted by the lion dance performance. i was deeply moved to see the performance. after being at home for a long time after the pandemic, i was eager to integrate into the community activities. the acceptance of my daughter

for lion dance was one of my best decisions for her. >> okay, thank you very much. did she get a speaker card? >> speaker: good evening, president, vice president and commission. my name is jeff lee i'm with sf cause san francisco community alliance for unity safety and education, i was born and raised in china town, i'm an owner, entrepreneur in china town, i've been in business for about 50 years between family, we're landlords and tenants and we understand the pandemic issue, and having lion dance has really opened up not only for tourism but for our own local people that have helped our economy and we advocate

health, safety and stop hate. and we have all come together and made it a better place now. so i am for having this permit to move forward, because lion dance is a big gain for all of us. >> time. >> thank you. >> hi my name is george louie i was also born and raised in china town. and i think china town is one of the best it's been now as far as violence. when i was growing up back in the 70s, it was gang warfare. now we have a great group of students trying to do something good for china town because we have to remember, what happened in september of 19 77 which was a very dark day for china town on the golden dragon massacre. right now we're just fighting how to promote business which i think is really good. >> thank you. >> i'm david lowe, norm you're

wrong, you should perform in every different location to benefit all business. don't just perform in one place. bush, grant jament o, grant, broward grant, think about it perform up and down grant. norman all businesses benefit, the joy, the kids and draws families and draws business. otherwise china town is very quiet and has less foot traffic. i love you, norm. >> thank you, next speaker, please. >> speaker: hi, good evening. my name is susie and i'm a former member of oakland asian cultural center in oakland china town. although i i don't live in san francisco, i've worked and graduated from san francisco state, i worked in san francisco for off and on for a number of years and i've also

volunteered in san francisco china town. i think that mr. lau and lion dance me is doing very important work. and i think it's great that they're trying to draw people back to china town and i, i hope that they'll continue to have the permit to do lion dance in china town. thank you. >> thank you. next speaker, please. >> speaker: my name is laura lee and i represent a print shot in town a town. in the sake of entertainment, entertainment for lion dance is the best entertainment for chinese, thank you. >> thank you, anyone else in the room that wants to provide public comment? okay, we're going to move to zoom and i see steven lee small business advocate, please go ahead. you need to unmute yourself.

>> speaker: commissioners, i own the oldest restaurant in china town. i also own blue stream wine and gallery at 55 grant avenue. of course we support norman lau and die ans dance meet, we put a lot of effort in promoting china town even before covid. lion dance me shows the community and non asian community what it takes to perform and do something like lion dance is part of our culture. to eliminate it or to, to disconnect it, it's going to be bad for the community. it's also possibly one block, i'm sure norman is willing to compromise and work with the merchants. i feel bad for the merchants,

during covid everybody wanted help and block the street. >> the next caller is identified as zoom user, please go ahead. zoom user? you need to unmute yourself. okay, we're going to move op to chuck, chuck go ahead. >> speaker: yeah, hello as much as i love to see a good lion dance, i've seen in my 35 years in san francisco that there is been sort of over kill in terms of closing streets, taking away parking spaces, you know, bike lanes whatever, and i really sympathize with the small businesses here. the merchants, it's hard enough that the deficit, the state and local deficit is just in sanely bad right now and any action that compromises the ability for people to do business,

we've gone too far in the direction. san francisco needs to reigns it in and. my local printer went out of business when they put a bike thing in front of their shop. i will not go tova tova --vanencia. >> thank you, your time is up. try dialing star 6 to unmute yourself. yes go ahead. >> speaker: hi name is name is tiffany kim and i'm the owner of store on grant avenue. and i'm also on the xhien a town merchant association. i appreciate and respect what lion dancing does, their performances. celebrate our tradition and heritage in our china town

community. i just wanted to find a compromise because it does impact. most of our customers run out of our store once the performance starts and they blokt entrance for potential customers come in. and we've had customers complain about the noise level. these do impact our sales and we would like to have a compromise. have him and his group perform in other areas of china town and not just on the 700 block every single day. >> thank you, ashley chang, please go ahead. ashley chang, you need to unmute yourself. >> speaker: hi i'm ashley chang and i run a nonprofit called charity and china town on commercial. i'm calling in today in support of norman.

i understand that there are some disturbances by some of the businesses and i sympathize with that. i do view that norman and his crew attract a lot of energy into the local businesses here as well. i hope his work will continue to support his community. >> thank you, milin chan. >> speaker: hi any maim is milin i was born and raised in san francisco and i live in san jose. i ran into norm's dance a cup 8 years ago, and my kids fell in

love. and we travel to san francisco and brought three other families. i just wanted conclude from my stand point, 700 is flat and if you go up, it's hill and you town ward, china town is get slopier. it gets dangerous. this is coming from a mom and i would hate to see them hurt because of a slope or step. >> thank you, benita louie, please go ahead. >> speaker: hi i'm calling in to support norman and lion dance me. the merchants who filed this appeal are on the wrong block, they're on the 800 block and norman performs on the 700

block. closing the street is safe and welcoming. >> thank you. we'll try to zoom you sir, one last time. you need to unmute sur self. you're identified as zoom user but you're muted. okay, is there any further comment on zoom? you need to raise your hand. okay, so we're going to move on to rebuttal, so we'll hear from the appellants, you have three minutes to address the board. >> speaker: thank you all for listening to this very

complicated case. it seems like we have good points on both sides but, you know, i want to address several points that we heard in the permit holder's presentation. first, inheriting the permit that he got from the china town association, it was designed during covid to support and stimulate businesses, at that time it did serve its purpose and i want to point out very clearly, that the association went door to door speak withing us in-person about their plans before applying for the permit. for the current street closure, the reapplication, we didn't even receive a single notice in the mail and that's why there has not been an appeal for that closure. we didn't realize until permit signs went up. and that's why they were held, they admitted fault in that case flt during the meeting. we also heard several points from the lion dancers and their

supporters, a lot of what we hear is culture value, none of us that we're all in support of what they do as an entity, we don't wish to stimy dance. the concern here is the venue and frequency. we heard a lot of statement that the 700 block because it's block. it's an event space, community center somebody that is able to contain elevated levels. may may play into the microphone the type of noise that we're being asked to endure for this time period. just as an example, give me one moment here. >> pause the time.

>> this is probably only playing at about 50 decibels, the recorded sound was 100. so i think you know, that makes my point in terms of sound. >> my question is, because every time when some sign come out, and it bothers me, i cannot get notify and i live in sunset district. if you have standard in your house, within how many feet and neighbor have to receive a notice to get appeal. but i never receive anything. >> 30 seconds. >> so again, we're in support of lion dancing, you know, i grew up in china town and we

invite lion dancers, every chinese new years to ples us, it brings us good luck. this appeal is not about opposing the lion dancing, it's about the duration of the street closure, which we were never notified of. >> thank you, that's fine. >> thank you, we have a few questions, commissioner swig and then vice president lemberg. >> i don't think we can do anything about street closure, i'm going ask the entertainment commission what we can do about that and that may lead to continuance, we can't touch that. so on the table, we have day a week a saturday or sunday, we have 700 versus block 600, i would be partial to the block

that is safer for the kids. we have saturday or sunday, we have time during the day is it going to be 2 to 5, 12 to 5, 10 to 5, who knows. we have and those are the key issues. i'm going to address this to council not because he's a handsomewould you like us to

make the decision and we cannot touch the street closure, sorry. what would you like us? and we can make the decision for you tonight. >> speaker: so the thing it's not all day program, right. so we need to make a time. so 3 to 5, i think that's good.

we have to agree with that, right? so saturday, or which blocks? >> would you the question is, would you like us to make that decision for you? or would you like to have a continuance and sit down with mr. lau and come back to us and say, hey, we have made a decision for you and this is what we suggest. what would you like? >> we open to talk to him, we got a proposal, we are open to talk but i don't know about him. >> okay. >> i'll be the one to push the button and ask him the same question. and that's a constructive thing to. >> cipro vieed some background on her comment. >> in the past we've received in verbal officers from norman in terms of time and permit, in

response we asked him to write it down on paper for us to sign we voiced our interest and we never received anything written which is why we submitted our own terms. >> fine. the option, i want to make it clear that's why i'm asking the question, this is free and transparent democratic situation, you have the opportunity of saying, okay, commission, you ordain our destiny tonight and i guarantee that you may not be happy or you can say, we would like to risk sitting out with mr. lau for another period of time at which if you come back, that means you have a settlement. if you don't, you fall in the same jurisdiction and we tell you what we want to you do.

do you think a continuance may help to get to where you're going? >> i think we're on the same page of having a continuance because we would like to speak with norman we talked to other peskin and other official and being direct and volve more community members in the decision process. >> thank you for that. commissioner lemberg. >> thank you, my question is similar but distinct again. as i'm sure you can tell, we were at least ifls also surprised by our inability to do anything about the street closure, knowing what we know and the fact that it's past the appeal window i was asking the entertainment commission, questions of trying to read your minds a little bit, read the merchant's minds about maybe if it was more, if there

was more activation during the week ends that the merchants may be more willing. and my question, this is more food for thought question is, are there other way that's we can make this weekend street closure which is again outside of our jurisdiction more palletable to you? and you don't need to give me an answer right now. assuming that this transit is kind of stuff and we cannot do anything about it and neither can anyone else. what can we do to activate your businesses more and you know, make this a better situation for you? >> i think that is something

that we would like to speak to community members for more ideas. but the general field is that this helped during covid and now it's more of a hindrance. >> i'm curious on this mta, i'm not sure it sounds like there is some kings and queens over there. did you not, were you not part of a discussion was there any notice that you were aware of in english or chinese? >> so we, we literally got into our stores in the morning one day, looked up and there were permanent signs that had just been erected about the street closure. first off there was no out reach in english and in chinese, which is more important in the community. there were 20 merchants or so

who last minute had notice to attend the meeting at far east to discuss this with representing with peskin and the applicant and the merchants and it was just, general outrage. when merchants asked the room which of you support the street closure, not one person raised their hands. and that highlights the shift, what worked then does not necessarily work now. and we hear for those klaoes you're, they're marketed for the community but the reality is the people who apply for them don't ask, they don't take the pulse of the community. they use that as a catch phrase. >> thank you. >> thank you, president lopez. >> thank you for your clarity. i just want to clarify.

we've had testimony from the permit holder that the folks who are representing, here for an appeal are in a different block, can you clarify that for us. >> that's right we're in a block that is included on both of the closures,. a lot of what we hear is well the line dancing is only 30 minutes, you're saying it's only 9 hours. the fact is they're approved for nine hours. they only utilize one block of their closure which is a 900 block but they've been approved to utilize all three. and so you know, the reality of how they use their permit versus what they're approved for is a distinction that we need to make. and speaking on behalf of the 800 block merchants particularly there is very few that are interested in having that in our block. >> so just to clarify, the mta

closure affects your block? >> the mta spends california street as does the entertainment permit. >> and the entertainment permit includes the 800 block even though the performances are currently on the 800 block. >> that's right, utilizing one block. i would like to point out i was looking through the briefs and i was reading the guidelines on how entertainment commission meetings how agenda are managed. this permit was approved on the consent agenda, per their guidelines only closure that spent 2 blocks or less, this is a three-block permit with existing closure on commercial street as well which is a four-block closure, i believe it was miss heard as well. >> thank you for that. let's focus on, i understand that the ec permit spends and

affects your block. in a hypothetical world where that is right size to only the 700 block, would you still be before us? >> it's difficult to say, there are definitely merchants like tiffany who just called in who are on the 700 block and opposed to continual performances solely on her black. it's difficult to make a decision en behalf of the entire community. i would say that there are people on both sides, the 800 wlok block is the most opposed, the 700 is probably the least oppose because they've been dealing with it for years. and there is not been an outcry. >> help me understand, so the 800 block which does not have

performances, is most opposed to the performances? can you tell us more about that. >> that's right, we're talking about what was approved and with his approval he can come on to our block and host these performances which detract from our performance. one ning to consider as well. >> i would like to focus on the question if i we may. so to the extent that you're able to speak to the the problem that have been voiced on the 800 block, are people complaining because they don't like that there is a possibility of a performance on the 800 block or are they complaining because they don't want a performance on the 700 block? >> there were 50 signatures from merchants, sorry, correction, there was 30

signatures from merchants on the 6, 7 and 800 block as well as sides streets that are affected on clay and sacramento. there are 50 residents who also signed the opposition for the residents living at the corner of grant and washington. the elders of one sue young tong association. and they also have a residential building at the corner of grant and clay. there are residents across on grant on the 800 block right in the middle as well. so there are hundreds of residents who did not know about this meeting. there are hundreds of residents like our merchants like ourselves who did not know about the street closure that

was approved for a whole entire year for every single weekend. it's similar to saying, you go home one day and you realize you cannot get into your street because there is no right-of-way. i mean if there was construction, we would be able to at least be notified of which days the roads would be closed so we can park elsewhere. >> i appreciate that, i'm sorry to interject i just want to focus on the things that we can control this evening. and we can't control the street closures, what we may be able to impact tonight or in a later hearing if this is continued is the permit before us which is about the noise. stemming from performance that's are currently in the 700 block and i at least for me it would be helpful to understand is this stemming from a fear of

performances coming from 800 block or i have issues with the performances as they exist today only on the 700 block. >> so even with the current performances, you know in practice being limented to the 700 block even with approval for three, on days when the performance is happening, we can still hear it on the 800 block from inside the store even with the door closes. so i would question a sound impact. because the guidelines that they have laid out is no more than 1100 feet from the event parameters out doors, we are certainly beyond that on our block with a separation of you know, entire city block and we're indoors and we can still hear it. >> okay. all right. i think for our benefit, i think obviously in the prior hearing we heard about the

robust enforcement mechanisms available to the ec. but, it sounds like that might be something that can be pursued under that umbrella but i think that does it for my questions. thank you. >> thank you, president lopez, i just got notice that nick chat man the manager of street closure is on zoom if you wanted ask him any questions about this permit, the street closure, he's available. >> great, i think i suspect we'll want to do that. why don't we, why don't we go through rebuttal and then that will give us sometime to formulate some questions as well. thank you for that. >> thank you, no further questions. >> we'll now hear from the permit holder, mr. lau, you have 3 minutes. >> first he played a video the

lion dancing, kids does this sounds that loud? where is he pin pointing that? so if i play through my phone, i'm going to choose a video, i'm on my facebook. does that sound different from what he's playing? does this sound different. where is he playing it and i'm pretty close to the drum. so you listen to what he puts on versus what i have on here, this is what the general audience listens to, he's probably right in the center of it. so the general listening areas is very different. even when i heard, i thought that sounds terrible, so they found the worse video.

so i want to you know when you learn something from different areas. yeah, right, but the general audience is not listening from that level, i want to make that assessment right. but just to talk about moving forward, and you know, i feel like that we're very flexible in what we want to do and deal with the community. but if feels very unfair leading up to here. how do we get here and how do we get here and the last week, i know how we got here. i never got a fair opportunity to you know, address or talk to anything. i hear everything through the media and everything else. so for instance, the science that were hung up by sfmta, i didn't know about them, i had no idea about the permit signs going up but there is a community uproar, so we had to town hall meeting and in that meeting, i actually had to

speak of course because that's my street closure permit. and i let them know that hey, a plied the same way as sf china town merchant association and i left it the same since they started the during the pandemic until now. and the last three years that we applied for, i reapplied for the same way and i only close down one street. right. i never closed down three streets ever and if i did, i would notify the people on the other other blocks that we would be doing that, right. so next, i addressed that and i came to a table and want to hear the merchants a petition was filed. and then when the petition was put pickup i addressed that. and then i addressed and then appeal, i'm addressing everything. nobody has come to me to ask me about a rebuttal, it was all

just kind of learned through the internet. that is your time. >> okay, we have questions from commissioner swig and commissioner transvina. >> mr. lau, you're not the only one, communication can be lousy and times what goes on in the noise of the public, seems unfair and we hear that all the time. but what goes on in here, is realtime, evaluation according to a compliance parameters and we try to do what is right and what is wrong, sometimes we can and sometimes we can't. so you're getting a fair hearing is what i'm saying to you. i'm going to ask you the same question, mr. lau, we have on the table months, we can do it between may and october or october august and september,

who knows, we can make that decision, everybody you see here. we can make the decision on what block we can do 600, 700 or 800, because that's what the mta has probably mistakenly offered you. we can do saturday and sunday and 3 to 5. do you, we can do that tonight, and we can make some real bad decisions on behalf of the community, or would you like to take it out of our hands tonight and agree to sit down and do come up with a formal answer and if you can't, you'll come back here and we'll make the decision for you. are you, are you open to a a little postponement on our decision to allow you to do that in a instructive fashion?

>> i would love to come to an agreement that would satisfy both sides. >> i believe, the community should make their own decisions. we can make decisions but you live with it. i think that's a really good answer. i'm going to ask question that you cannot answer. you will not be able to answer but i'm setting up a question that will be in front of the entertainment commission or now i that i know that somebody from mta is listening, has anyone ever offered you the opportunity or would you ever accept the opportunity to

rescind to reduce it to some level to the folks to the community a sense of comfort. you have this permit that is open, you can put a parade from the 600 to 800 block and it seems to be a covid decision, i'm speculating by mta, would you be willing to go to mta and have a discussion later, because we don't have jurisdiction, to rescind that permit pending an adjustment to something that fits? what you're going to negotiate? >> my name is larry i'm a long time community member good friend of norman lau, regarding

rescinding their goal is one block. it's always been the one block. the three block came in because of the signs that was placed bit city, dpa or mta, they put it up by mistake, they came back and changed out the dates on there. they're always for the last three years, four years, they always been on that 700 block. if it's the past the decibel system, that should have been reported to mta, and then that's where all the things can be done. so again, the 800 block my association is on the 800 block, 854 and we have no complaint. >> thank you, i cannot let you testify, thank you for that really important information.

i hope the gentleman from mta who you can't see on zoom, that's the problem we have when somebody does not show up. >> president. >> he's president now. >> okay, jose. >> jose lopez. >> they kicked me up. >> they just want that one block and if you want to modify, it that's the best thing. if you want to resinned, does he have to reapply. >> thank you for the testimony, because that's what i want to ask the gentleman in the telephone. that's perfect, okay. commissioner transvina. >> am i correct in understanding you're willing to

communicate with community members. >> yes. >> would you prefer that you come back to the entertainment commission or would you rather come back to us? >> come back to you or entertainment commission, how does that workout? >> we can't remand the entertainment commission. >> the board can continue it or it are rule on appeal but it remand the matter to the entertainment commission. >> can we, okay, i was thinking we have the option of granting the appeal and letting the entertainment commission. as i understand from the directer, they can put this back on the agenda, i believe, this is part of the problem here is the lack of communication that the

entertainment commission didn't have the opportunity to hear a lot of facts that we have heard tonight and as we have the ability to reconsider our decisions, i perhaps, i would ask the entertainment whether they would reconsider this based on what they heard. so my own preference would be that it's allowed is that the entertainment commission bring everything together and resolve it rather than us resolving it. but if that's not open to us, then, it's not. >> i think that would be an option as long as the board makes a decision on the appeal before it and i think it's probably a question for the entertainment commission whether that would work better procedurely to grantor deny the appeal as i understand it, even if the appeal would deny, they would maintain jurisdiction to revisit it but they should confirm that. >> and if we continue it, that

would not preclude the commission from. >> they can't act on it as it's continued, it's suspended at this point. sure. >> okay, i'm looking for solutions that serve the needs of the lie an dancers, i don't think anybody wants to get rid of the lie on dancers. >> i think i'm a reasonable person, we tried to talk to the appellants about this before, we're not the one attacking anyone here. anytime something was said, we wanted to approach and figure out a way walk directly into their store and talk to them about it, right. so i feel like, i have no problem whether i have the power to keep the street closure, i don't care about that. i want to come to some agreement. we can revise it or whatever it is.

and having a conversation with them, and dialogue would be great but i never had that chance to have that you know, you know. opportunity. so if they would like to sit down and talk to me, i would like the entertain the idea and come to conclusion. doing it front of people, how does that help us. that way you can really talk about each other's concerns and try to settle that way. >> i understand that, and i was not casting shade on your activities, i was asking about what you were willing to do. >> that's what i'm willing to do. i'm willing to go down to one block, i'm willing to do one day a week, one, once a week, maybe more but have to know the dialogue between the appellant wants and the community want to do too. >> my only interest is who you're willing to talk to and in what?

>> anyone that will want to sit down with me to have a reasonable conversation anyone. >> thank you. >> okay, no further questions. >> sorry, we're, this portion of the program is really limited to our questions. >> okay. >> we do have scheduled events that we had talked about and for the month of aapi that are longer hours than two hours so those are things that we're look forward to doing in the month of may. that's the added thing. >> thank you we'll now hear from the entertainment commission. >> i can yield my time for questions for the most part, because i think we've covered everything and i can just maybe ask you a question deputy city

attorney hubert, just if the permit was denied this evening, do you have any idea that would limit us from being able to receive a new permit application for the same days and times. i'm not appear because i've never been a board of appeals for a one-time permit before and at least for a brick-and-mortar permit, if you had denied that permit, their only recourse would be to come back and request a rehearing here. >> so it would depend on the entertainment commission procedures if there is a permit denial can somebody return and apply for the same permit. perhaps, maybe it would be safer if we're not certain of those procedures tonight. if the appeal is, if commission wants to go this route, if the

appeal is denied, would you have the and the permit is upheld, would you have the ability to come pelt parties to come back to a further hearing and modify the permit at will? >> yes, so i can address that and that process, i would submit a memo to my commission for them to make a decision on rehearing this item. so that would be submitted to them to make a determination on may 7th, that's our soonest hearing, we just met last night. so this would be heard as soon as may 21 but they would be approved and that would cover all weekends in between. that's about a month away. >> i just wanted to add if the permit is denied they would reapply but they would have to change the terms of the permit because which they are willing

to do. >> that's the answer i'm looking for. >> they're only bared if it's the exact conditions. >> do we know if the appellants or anyone else would have an appeal over a modified permit after the may 21 hearing? >> no, not that i'm aware of. >> okay, and i think the other procedure question if he to reapply how long would that take? >> it depends on with when they reapply, and we want to require at least two weeks in advance so they can conduct the community out reach. so at this point, potentially may 7th? they can come to our hearing. >> i actually wanted to ask a flip side of that question, which is if we were to continue this matter, would the permit stay suspended and not permit

lion dance to not do any activities. >> yes, it would remain suspended. >> okay. all right, i'll think about that for a second. i did want to ask you a couple of other questions, ms. wyland. number one as the appellant pointed out, as the current permit allows them to do everything on the three blocks as opposed to the one block which they apparently agreed to do. we would have to mote fie that modify that. >> that would be depending on which route you wanted to take if you were making a determination tonight you would add that as a condition as a part of your deno voluntary capability or if we were to have this as a denial and then, sorry, can you guys keep it

down, sorry, it's hard to concentrate, then we can have them on may 7th and include that as part of conditions that we recommend. or may 21 if you approve the permit. >> oh i thought of something else, the special event are those under this permit or separate permits. >> under this permit. >> okay, and then the other thing i want today ask, going back to something you were talking about earlier regarding potential regarding if there was no lion dance, i just want to get some clarification on everything you went by that just so i know i understand it. >> sure just having, hearing all the comments tonight, just looking at to potentially adding a second sound condition. right now the permit holder

would have to ensure that the sound is an exceeding at a distance 100 feet from the event periphery which we would want to go out and test on location during sound check to actually issue them a specific limit that would comply with that 100 foot measurement and then educate them on that. and to would be for amplified sound that was associated with the dancing, if they're not amplifying sound and they're just using drums and symbols, we would hope that they would be in compliance with that 100-foot rule, it's harder to issue if there is no dial and it's just first amendment use of instrument. >> right. >> so ifls saying that it could be good to add a second condition for any prerecorded

amplified sound to be limited at a measurement of either 25 or 50 feet from the event reif periphery. >> thank you. >> thank you, that's helpful. i'll pass to president lopez. >> we've touched on the notice issue is the timeline the 7th and 21, is that enough time to get materials in place. >> yeah, i believe so if we started right away, yeah. that would provide us, two and

a half working weeks yeah. >> okay. that was my question. >> i'm still in the path of continuance, we have a meet ing on may the 8th, which is the day after may the 8th. >> fun. >>--may the 7th. >> fun. >> and what i would like to ask you is would it be appropriate, are you willing or otherwise to sit with mr. lau and the appellants and help facilitate. >> sure. >> an agreement as opposed which we can rehear, i'm making the assumption that everybody can show up on the 8th and we have four appeals that are related, it's not as big of

agenda as it seems and show up here on the 8th with an agreement. >> i would love that, although i don't have a whole lot of faith in that at this time beinger given the fact that once we learned of this appeal, we've been trying to mediate this entire time with the help of president peskin's office as well and that has not produced results. >> yeah, i've heard that. >> and you've seen it tonight. >> and again, we can play a little roulette where they can play roulette and they can come back here if you failed and yet, you're a competent and smart and affective communicator, i can see that. if they wanted to play roulette and not accept your facilitation in a constructive

fashion then they come back may 8th and we tell them what it's going to be and somebody is going to be upset. i was just asking. >> sure. >> that's a consideration that we're going to have in further discussion. but i just wanted to find out, it's may 7th, you've go through the whole process examine make sure communication goes in the neighborhood that's ambition because on may the 8th if you can facilitate the conversation they can come back may the 8th without having to go through the hoops. >> i think in my mind i also have a staff recommendation for you all, it's just a matter of getting the parties to agree to that. >> so you would agree with a facilitation and it would be my recommendation, forecasting mill discussion, that we can do a continuance ask. >> yeah, would i definitely.

>> and facilitate a conversation the two volunteered to have a conversation, that would be the most efficient and constructive way. >> i would do that in partnership with supervisor peskin. >> or else, we get to make that decision. >> that's right. >> that's all. thank you. >> okay. >> i'm a little bit confused by the your last interaction with commissioner swig, are you saying that the commission has attempted to mediate and has there been an unwillingness to meet and discuss or just been. >> just agreement. >> just agreement. >> just agreement. >> but there does appear to be willingness on both sides to discuss. >> yes. >> and i think our goal is to have the dancers be dancing somewhere as quickly as possible. >> uh-huh. >> and it's your view that if we continue this to may 8th,

that would be faster. >> i leave it up to you all. i think that might be the best process just given all the community feedback that we heard tonight. so if we hold another entertainment commission meeting, it's likely going to be a repeat of tonight. so, i support that. >> thank you. >> yeah. >> okay, thank you. no more questions commissioners, this matter is submitted. >> commissioners, i'm for getting which side? yeah, before we do that, we're starting with commissioner swig, on deliberations. if the representative from mta is still on the line, let's get the request to speak order for anybody who may have questions for that and then after those questions we'll start with

commissioner swig. >> okay, i'm going to promote. i'm sorry, let's move him to the panelest position so we can get a video, please alec. >> okay, at the moment. >> i'm sorry, nick, we you were cut off, so please go ahead. >> yeah, i'm sorry, i don't have video at the moment on the computer that i'm on. >> no problem, please go ahead. do we have a question. >> the question is one of the issues seems to be that there was, that the decision to grant this permit to close all the streets which with such a wide was an unrestricted parameter, is something that is not

working for the community. it also was disclosed that there wasn't proper community out reach at the very least that documentation in chinese which would be which would reflect sensitivity to the immediate community was not taken into consideration or implemented and then, we understand also that the necessity, that this may have been a covid driven initiative when it was done but right now, it really is causing more problem than good because what is really needed is a similar permit that covers one block for a specific and limited period of time. what is the process how can mta cure this situation for what is being framed as unnecessary

and too broadly scope permit. >> first of all and thank you commissioners for the opportunity to address you all. i was not expecting that, i was just going to be an audience member but i think this may be useful for all of us. but an initial point of clarification that street closure permits are granted by approved by an inter departmental staff committee, scott, you a briefed as escot that was set up by legislation many many years ago. sfmta chairs that committee and manages it with myself as the manager of the process. but approval is a like i said an inter departmental staff committee where the commission is a voting member, police, fire, public works, public health and the planning

department. and so, during the pandemic a separate emergency process was set up under the prompting of the office of the mayor that had slightly reduced process involved but included public note ification, since the end of the pandemic, they passed organization to make the program permanent and permits have continued since then and issued under the governing which includes public noticing process which is done using standard, public notices which include a heading, that is multi lingual including chinese and information on getting translation services at the bottom through the city

ospasses. so there was multi lingual public notification done of every street closure permit in the pandemic and in the post pandemic era under normal processes. so i hope that's a bit of clarification about the procedure and about which entity is actually granting the permit. but ye, i'm a sfmta staff person and sfmta has been in charge and imanage that process. to go back to the overly broad permit issue. so the permits are specific to the uses and layout, defined in the application submitted by in this case, norman lau, during the earlier version of this, it was through eva lee china town

association which whom scott as a long productive history of approving street closures in china town. zoo it is restricted to the uses that were defined in norman's application and permitted by the scott committee. >> so we can't do, we can't touch this board cannot comment, we can't, we can't do anything about the permit that we're talking about. but it seems that tonight,ing of a large very large portion of our conversations from the community has been related to what might be theab lessons of this which was issued during

covid which was reduced and less of an issue and that the discomfort and also which contracts to the inability to reach a satisfactory resolution on the permit at hand, is this overreaching mta permit that really is gives car blanche to close the streets? which may be harmful, i'm being speculative to the community at hand. if this is a situation that is undermining our conversation tonight, and causing this discomfort to the community, what can be done? what is, what is the chapter verse, what is the compliance path to adjusting this per mta

permit to fit the foot, it's like the hue and the foot, how do you adjust the shoe to fit this foot which would be the permit which we are discussing tonight so this contention goes away? can mr. lau, ask for a an amendment to this permit? does he have to ask or rescission of this permit and reissue ans of a more affective and valid permit. give us feedback on that please, we can't act on it but this is really important in giving fortunate to the community and mr. lau and context for them to move their discussion forward on the permit at hand. >> thank you commissioner swig

for your framing there of a number of the issues. and before i, go on in response to that, i did want to thank you for your remarks about the china town community, it's important to san francisco as a whole and the importance of celebrating culture and community which you know, all of the speakers on both sides have also spoken to its something that we support as escot and sfmta, we were very pleased that in the merchant association received the very first pandemic space permit to activate china town in response to the pandemic. the permits for the closure on grant avenue, have continued year on since then with each year with there being public notice and a public hearing.

we had we had never received any feedback of any kind in opposition to any of the permitting or activities prior to two weeks ago. and so the concerns that emerged very recently from the community about this permit, caught us like the entertainment commission kind of off guard, it was not something that we've seen before. as to and i also want to say that the permit is approved by an inter developmental staff community of which mta is only one of 7 members. and it was not car blanche and they could not hold a parade which was something that was mentioned earlier, because it was not one of the use that's was a included with the application and the permit is specific to the uses that were described in the application that was submitted. so it is not car blanche by any

means and we would never issue a car blanche issue for any street closure, that would be an a abergation of the role. about the specifics could they recondition the permit? absolutely, if norman came to us and said i just want the 700 block and i just want it on saturday and we would immediately reissue a permit for that. and that would be that. and i also want to explain the inter play of the scott permit. if the commission does not approve or the board does not approve any or all of the request for outdoor entertainment and amplified sound, activities could still take place that were described in the application and that

were not entertainment and did not require amplified sound. that would be only outdoor dining, there were no other street. the other uses of the street were line dance performances and a dj. so those three areas of the activity are the only activities that can take place under the escot permit. we would support, i think, speak for the committee, i think the committee would support a revision of the permit that would reduced footprint and reduced days and hours. whatever honestly whatever the community would support we would support and that's the bottom line, we are here to facilitate the activation of the public right away for civic

enjoyment for economic development for the tourism industry which is a key component but fundamentally, only what the community is willing to support. so we would welcome any solution that moves us all collectively to that. >> so final question, actually two-part question. so what i'm hearing is in what might come forth as a continuance, mr. lau, might want to put forth aggressively the fact that he is willing to go to you and request to change that permit? >> correct. and if it's a reduction. >> yes. >> footprint or hours, there is no additional public process required. because he's asking for less than he has been given. so we'll see that's great. >> so in fact, if he did that, if we continue this to may 8th

i'm being arbitrary but that happens to be the next hearing date and they come back on may 8th are a resolution between today and that time, if mr. lau came to you and said, i would like to reduce the scope, you could issue a permit that will aligned his that were aligned to his issue immediately? >> immediately, i can do that administratively without going back to the committee. >> i think that's a really important piece of information that will benefit moving forward to this discussion and i appreciate the information that you shared with us tonight. thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you for the opportunity to address the board. >> mr. trans vina has a question. >> i want to thank you as well for being with us at least virtually and in the city employees are here, the students who are here it's past 9:00 o'clock and demonstrates

the importance and seriously of which every one gives these issues. i had a couple of questions, when escot's deliberation when you say that there is notification given, that prior to the decision or notification of a decision? >> there are public hearing notices that are posted on all of the affected blocks at least one week prior to the public hearing. and these are again, those are notices that include multi lingual on what the notice is about. and at the bottom how to get additional information and whatever language you may require it in. those are the standards public things that are used for all street changes and those are used by mta, by epscot or

street closures, we request that a minimum of six be posted and we require a declaration that they have been posted and photos demonstrating. we supply the hearing notice. sxl it includes information on how to commit comments to the committee which includes my phone number, my office phone number, our unit email, and also the information on how to join the hearing which is a remote hearing either by computer or by telephone. >> given all of what you've done, i would be surprised if there was no opposition, this opposition on everything in san francisco, but if you're saying that that the permit for the street closure, has been subject to public notice where it's affected, and the decision of of the commission was based upon the available testimony, that's helpful for us to keep

in context. >> i was not surprised that there was no objection, we have a long history of working productively with the china town community. and as i said in particular with eva lee who has been, is terrific advocate for the china town community and partner. >> yes. and eve has submitted a letter to us suggesting that the lion dance can be done at ports square and other places other than the single block. but, leave aside, so you had, you've provided an opportunity for multi lingual opportunity and escot made the decision based on that. and because you consider this a potentially contracting the permit that mr. lau has he in

affect is the owner of whether it's going to be, whether there is going to be cars, whether the streets are going to be open because he has the permit. if there is still objection to the one block, there is no opportunity for that objection to be raised because i believe we have, we still have objections at least lodged with us about one of the blocks being closed if not more than one block but there is an opportunity for public comment if he just comes in and says, i want one block instead of three. >> there is a normal appeals process but norman has indicated that he's only using one block and only intends to use one block. so it does seem to me, that there is, you know, a solution that seems to be broadly supported in the community if not universely. but i want to stress for four years, we have done this permit

every year without any opposition from the community whatsoever so again, we were caught off guard by the events in the last couple of weeks. >> thank you very much. >> president lopez. >> thank you if i may just one from me. so projecting forward, regardless of what happens with respect to the permit holding going to your agency to reduce and rescind portions of the permit, we would still have the community would still have another bite at the apple for next year's new permit covering the same territory that's right? >> absolutely. absolutely. and you know, you know, and we have in response to the to the events of the last couple of weeks, we have added in

enhanced procedures for the china community foreclosures. while we were following all approved procedures and all procedures that we have used for decades, successfully, we obviously don't want any controversy, you know of this sort of scope. so we're happy to work collaboratively with supervisor peskin's office and all of the stakeholders to provide enhanced notification going forward of requests such as this in the future. >> thank you and then before we, we let you go, i would be remiss, can you restate your name and title for us. >> sure my name is nick chapman imanage street closures for sfmta and i'm responsible for

administering the traffic and transportation which is this committee set up by the board with the voting members that include the entertainment commission police, fire, et cetera. >> thank you, thank you so much. i just have to say that sometimes we have trouble getting information even from the parties who are suppose to appear before us and do appear before us, and the fact that you took of your own vlition to listen to the hearing and make yourself available for our questions, is extremely commendable. i think all too often, you hear of you know, folks kind of disparaging the city, departments say that's not my job and this is the best example of people stepping up and being proactive and really trying to do your best by the

citizens of san francisco so thank you so much for being available and for the information that you shared. >> thank you. >> with that let's start with commissioner swig. >> you will not be surprised you know, i'm weighing the opportunity of saying this back to the entertainment committee, commission or looking for a continuance to get the dragon to get the lion dance, sorry, wrong animal. lion dance back on the street. and the fastest way is by taking it back doing a continuance and taking it back for may 8th. and that will allows that

allows the great process of chinese culture to move forward. i would suggest a continuance and to may 8th. in that spirit, we have some obvious opportunities. i think i framed it redundantly what the issues are. i don't think, are you available may 8th? mr. lau? >> can we make a decision now? >> no. we could. i don't think you want us to. >> if we talked about reducing the days and the our street closure as well and of course to one block. >> could, let me finish. >> okay. >> and then i'll ask you the question, does that work for

you mr. lau? >> yeah. >> i know how to negotiate here. so we have some parameters, again the months during the yae, the specific day, the specific block, the specific hours of the day and so we're, you know, we're down to a short list. and again, we can make that decision tonight and somebody might not be happy or you can make the decision together in constructive decisions. so you get feedback. simultaneously mr. lau can make everybody a lot more comfortable by folgt direction of mr. chat man and adjusting his permit that this is not wide open opportunity but he

really does only want to do the lion dance on a day at a time over certain period of month, that would give a lot of satisfaction and comfort to the community. or, we can make the decision tonight and if we screw up and you're not happy with both sides are not happy with it, you know, that would be kind of unfortunate. so i can we can kill two birds with one stone by continuing this allow mr. lau to go back and speak with mr. chapman allowing mr. lau to speak to the appellant, be instructive and giving in and giving in. you know, the best part about negotiation is that nobody is going to walk away totally happen because they're not going to get their way but at least on may 8th, you can come

back here and we can bless it with your recommendations and you can be dancing soon there after. that would be my point of view. now mr. lau do you have any thoughts related to my line of thinking? >> it's just because i have planned events in may. we already have advertised events in may that's the only reason that makes it tough. earlier i was a little confused. i am willing to talk, i didn't know how long that would take. i'm showing that i want to put forth and be cooperative and try to come to an agreement. will you also if i say that we can just do saturdays only on

one block, is that a good start? >> anything is a good start. >> you're going to put it in your hands, that's the only thing, i always like the community make themselves make the decision as opposed to us who. >> right now i'm more than comfortable doing saturdays on the 700 block and after further notice if i get communication with the appellant and other community, i'll feel more comfortable what is going, i would like to know if i can get. maybe biweekly instead but i don't feel comfortable with that right now, because i've never had context, there is a little bit of attack mode going on against me. so that's why i feel like let's talk it out first, but we don't have your chance. >> okay, i hear your feedback. >> one second.

>> no respect mr. lee, he's the man of the hour. >> it's all new to me. i'm comfortable giving up sundays and just doing saturdays, right from 10 to 5 it would be and then, and then on the 700 block. >> and the months of the year? >> the months of the year, right now we'll go with march to october. >> okay. thank you. may i ask the same question of the appellant, i just went through a dissertation. counsel you may want to step up and speak for your group. >> i elevated you.

if you would like to be the spokesman what is on the table is that, you can go away come back, and hopefully have a constructive decision. mr. lau has committed to reorganizing the permit as we discussed with mta which we can't touch to 5th issue that is being discussed. he's saturday, he's 10 to 5 he's march through forgot. october. and he's on the 700 block. do you want to end it right now and say yes or do you want to give us feedback and we can move it forward. >> i know the kids have worked very hard, i'm sure i was a kid once and i grew up in china

town, though i was not flexible enough to do all the great moves they do today. but, and we don't want them to not perform, because they have, they have been practicing and working for this. >> we want them on the street. >> we all want them on the street. >> yes. >> it's very difficult for me to speak on behalf of all of these merchants, but -- --. >> so what i'm asking do you want us to continue would you rather have a continuance under the si,z of meeting mr. lau for the next couple of weeks, and coming back here with the may 8th with the with the promise that mr. lau has made to adjust the permit with mta or would you like us to make a decision

for you tonight based on the request that mr. lau just made. and we may not agree completely with mr. lau. to share our perspective, saturdays are very difficult for businesses. as a business, we wait the entire day for saturday. it's that specific day not sunday and not monday, it's saturday. and i know there are several merchants who requested whatever you do, don't give us saturday, it's our life blood. it's very difficult as well to, you know agree to agree to a permit that is roughly a year and roughly the entire day which is why it's difficult. so i think, personally my comfort would be to speak at further length with the

applicant with norman and see if we can come to some agreement that works a little bit better for both of our parties. >> and by the way, if you don't agree and you come back may 8th, we're going to do it anyway. you know, that's it. >> per cma's advisory, it's for the safety of the kids, we don't understand why they cannot perform on a flat surface in portman's square. that is enclosed environment. and many of the chinese community is in support, you know, days where we work late on a wednesday, we hear the kids practicing on wednesdays afternoons. i don't know which group it is, but we hear cheers and claps and it's awesome, that's

something we spoke with eva at cma as well as supervisor peskin. >> take it under advisement. so go ahead. >> okay, my concern is the permits only for lion dance, right? >> i think it was lion. >> lie an dance and dj. >> exactly. >> so nothing else? cannot bring anything in besides that? i just want to make sure. >> i think that's what i heard from mr. chapman. >> okay, that's what i want to ask. >> so continuance or do you want us to make a decision tonight? and we may vote for continuance anyway, i'm just trying to get you guys to--we're listening to the community we want to be autographs.

>> so the time limit from where? >> saturdays, 10 to 5. >> may to october. only on 700. so after october what happens? >> then that's it. >> that's it. so he has to reapply? >> then we have to receive all the letters before we doing, is that correct? not like, during pandemic where we don't see anything, it's nothing like that. >> that's my believe, we can get confirmation entertainment commission can say, it's over, what is the permit from the entertainment commission? >> yeah. >> i believe it's march 31 of next year. >> so yes, they would have if we have may to the end of october, that's it. that's it.

so continuance or you want us to resolve it tonight? >> i think we're willing to resolve it tonight. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> i wanted ms. shaoupeter a question, hearing everything we've heard tonight. is there any possible mechanism if we were to do a continuance could we, if the parties were to come in agreement in advance, can we vote to approve that agreement in advance? my goal is here that if we were to do a continuance and have the parties come to agreement, is there any way that we can get this perm pita proved so that they can do it before our next meeting? >> no.

>> okay. that's a hard no. >> if i can follow-up on that question. if we move to continue it they reach an agreement, that includes withdrawing the appeal, would that allow a decision to be in affect earlier than our next meeting. >> well they can withdrawal the appeal but the pirment would be upheld in the current condition, we cannot change the terms. but if they come up with an agreement. >> can the commission supervise it? >> no, it's suspended. if the appeal is wrong. they would have to get it on their may 8th agenda. >> so, the potentially if we continue this to the earliest possible would be may the 8th,

the party could go -- ~>> point of order can somebody shut the door please. >> what i'm concerned about is potentially resolving this tonight is it seems to me, it does not sound the ability for us to effectuate in the mta part of this. >> sorry in the gentleman in the dark blue jacket can you get off the wall please. thank you very much. >> there is an air leak in the pump. >> commissioner can i have the floor again, thank you. so what i'm trying to do is we're all in agreement, we want this resolved quickly with buy in, i think what we heard all

along the stakeholders were unaware or not invited and not enough public output. i'm concerned that the residents of these residents from these blocks are not part of this discussion but we cannot have everything i would prefer that the all sides go out and try to resolve this and come bang as quickly as possible either to the entertainment or to us which is may the 7th or may the 8th rather than trying to resolve it tonight particularly when the mta permit is not part of any agreement tonight but it could be part of an agreement with the parties and then we can see if if the agreement is mr. lau can request mta to shrink the permit for that we would be aware of that on may

the 7th or 8th i'm looking for a resolution where there is public input including the issue of mta permit, i don't think that we can do that. i suggest that we continue this until may the 8th. >> you may want to clarify with the permit holder that he understand the process of street closure permit. it's just a suggestion. >> i don't feel, i don't want to put him on the spot now for trying to get him to agree to shrink the permit. >> i'm not suggesting that, i'm suggesting that that's part of the discussion, i believe and maybe he didn't fully understand the process that it could be administratively modified by the mta. >> so, mr. lau, are you i'm

told you have agreed to go back to mta to shrink the street closure? >> yes. >> to one block. >> yes. >> and you're understanding of the process from chapman's testimony that you can request that. >> yes. >> if i may finish my testify from earlier, i'm pretty feeling i'm pretty strongly that the continuance is the only right answer tonight. i'm not comfortable resolving this tonight. and i, it is unfortunate that this is coming at the cost of performances, but i don't think there is a perfect answer tonight and i think the continuance is by far the best answer considering everything that commissioner francevina just said and what else we've

been talking about. as far as deliberations go, i'm not willing to support a motion that would resolve this tonight. >> thank you, i was going to and i generally agree with that. i love shared spaces, i loved shared spaces when there were a lost them. they worked for a very good period of time and some of them still work but those things are very very carefully programmed and have a lot of community buy in and the reason is, is because unfortunately in a lot of ways we've gone back to our old habits and we need to go to something that closer that we conducted business in the past. sometimes we can change things entirely but in a lot of cases, unfortunately we have to think about how we engage and take the lessons and apply them to our new times and that's not the way that this permitting

process is going. and so, i think this has to be right sized and when i say right sized i don't mean what we think what is right sizes, i don't know what your events are. it's just the way that it is and so instead of doing that and forcing you to live with that for the course of the next year, i think it's more important to mitts first weekend in may and you come up as a community which you're all part of and which you're all trying to strengthen come up with the answer that works best. and even if you don't get to 100 percent decision, you'll narrow the decision and we'll be able to come up with a decision. our other alternative is to just approve the permit and have it run through the end of may and kick him back to the

entertainment commission. so i along with mr. strongly in favor of going along with the continuance and having you all come up with the best solution that works best for the most people in the community and coming back to us or as close to it as you can get. >> i guess i see it a little bit differently, i think. you know, taking a step back, i think about what is what is more urgent before us. and i think i think i valley not mission a performance over concerns that are valid but also somewhat hypothetical. i think these things having going on for four years. we've heard testimony that that

at least some of the contributing factors are about the fear of more of this activity encroaching other blocks. you know, we've already heard from the appellants some thingses that are in my opinion a little bit out of scope, taking it to another public square, you know definitely the street closure elements are out of scope for what we can do what we control in this body. i think with that in mind, thinking about who has mower to lose even in the short-term and more disruption to have to deal with, i would i think that there is a couple of big blocks

that everybody not everybody but that we can at least kind of hack out hack at today, even if we were to just say, the permit survives but it's limited to the 700 block, even just that. then performances continue undisrupted and we heard testimony from the commission that they will revisit this and they can reissue public notice in chinese that's something that we can't do. you know before may 8th, that's something that they stated on the record that they can do. if we even just say 700 only and let the, it's reminding me of some of the conversations that that came up on the last

item, where we say this is on your radar, we trust that this is in your radar and you will handle it. and i think with the benefit of you know, the ec hearing and being exposed from the positions this evening and already coming with solutions, the representative already came out and came to us with a couple of ideas about hey, we have we have measurements that adjustments that we can make in terms of the measurements, that's another thing that we can't do. we can't do this language notice, we can't order them to do these amplications noise studies, right. and so there is things here that that are potentially in play that we can't control that we can't do that ec can do and allowing the permit to survive

this evening, and not be suspended does not impede them from calendaring this, reissuing notice, doing some of these other sound studies and having them, you know, resolve the issue, i think that also gives the permit holder some time to if, if he kind of follows the kind of mood of the conversation this evening, to independently go to the mta and to further reduce outside of what we can do this evening the footprint of the street closure permits which at the end of the day is what people really care about. sxl that can also happen before

another ec hearing. so i don't know, i think in terms of weighing the interest, i would ask folks to consider that and i'm not going to fall on the sword if everybody wants to continue and i can count that may be where it would go but i would offer that as a possibility. these performances have been going on for a while. this, this the appeal activity you know, may be partly due to the notice issue but we heard testimony not just from the folks from the room but mta saying hey, we were surprised by this. this is going on for four years. and i have to say to the permit holder, i think everybody has

gotten around with their, you know, words of respect for what you're doing, i have to chime in as well. i'm a former teacher and i worked with young people, unless you're giving out ps5, i don't know how you get folks this engaged to even come to our meeting. i have to commend what you're doing and i respect the passion that you've ignited in these young people is extremely commendable so maybe that colors my preference for not missing even a single performance but i think it's informed by the fact that i think that there is a path to preserve those performances to allow some of the work that the ec has talked about which again, we can't mandate them to

do this by before we have to decide this thing if we go that route. we cannot mandate. and in fact a new round of notices in chinese are irrelevant if we're going to keep it at this body. we also can't, you know, to be fair we can't remand it so we're taking a leap of faith that the ec will go and do this. but i do given the fact that we're talking about something that has been going on for four years, given that i think we heard some of the concern is hypothetical about an expansion to the full allowance under the permit, i don't know want to lose any performances. we have a path forward and by the way, it's only for few months. so there is things that we can

do to curtail to hack at some of the biggest things, six more months, one block, we can do that. we can do that this evening, let it survive let the calendar continue as planned let the ec step back in as i have no doubt that they will based on the hours of testimony and all the public interest that we've heard. i have no doubt that they'll take it upon themselves to revisit and the way that they stated that they will. >> can i ask the attorney something. le can we do what the president lopez wants to do with a condition that the permit holder restructures the restructures,

takes the initiative, i have to get the right words gets the change done with the mta permit with the street closure permit. >> i don't think that the board can require that because it's outside. >> i thought it was a dumb question but i'm doing a hail mary here. the board can seek a commitment. >> under testimony he's already said that he's going to do it because it's a good idea and he's agreed to it but under oath but i was wondering if we can condition it. >> no the conditions would have to be the same conditions. >> i thought so but it was a hail mary. can i ask you sir, based on the testimony that we heard already, you've got three here, i'll go either way.

that one want to continue and what would be your motion what would be your motion? would you like to make a motion knowing that -- ~>> that's a motion. i would move to i guess, i may ask my, our executive director for a little help but i think we would make a motion to grant the appeal right, and then issue the pirment on the condition that that the permit only cover saturdays, i'm sorry that the permit only cover the 700 block and that it expire at the end of march, october. >> you said october.

>> yeah. >> i think it would be deny the appeal so -- ~>> i think we grant the appeal. >> issuing conditions. >> on what basis? and in the time limit is 10:00 to 5 p.m. >> those the hours the permit and it's less. >> if that will give me some votes, i'll limit it to 10 to 5. on the basis that the these limitations have been have seen expression of agreement among the parties in testimony, and on the basis that the permit shall appeal out to otherwise continue as issued? >> i'm sorry, i didn't understand the first part, the

limitations on the permit what do they do? >> on the basis that the limitations address some of the concerns raised by appellants and cover some of the areas that have received expression of agreement pong --among the parties and testimony. >> okay, thank you, be we have a motion prosecute president lopez that require performances only take place on saturdays on the 700 block of grant avenue from 10:00 am to 5 p.m. and that the permit expires at the end of october 2024 and this motion was made on the basis that the limitations address some of the concerns of the appellant and reflect some of the agreement of the parties, is that correct? >> that's correct. >> okay, so on that motion --

~>> there is pending request to speak. >> all right, i am jump in first. i'm a transaction al attorney, i've got something that wants to get along, i've got something that wants to get along and i have a department to get along and i have no contract i have no way to enforce this. and i feel like that's the process that we're about to walk ourselves into. so i want to make sure that we have the ability to ensure that the parties go back to the process that they said they'll go to as soon as they can? and they continuance one way is the one way of doing that. another way is to reduce the permits such as that they have to go back before the commission in a quicker time period, that will kick start if rereduce the. maybe we give him a month more

than that. but that will force the conversation to happen much more quickly and not be as you know negative to the people that live and run businesses even on just the 700 block which we understood from testimony even though the folks that have, they wanted 600 block i understand 700 is flat i'm okay with that but i would like more guard rails and would i like more guard rails around this process, around the changing the scot pirment what we can do --permit. i want that sort of enforceability. i also say the other thing is that a lot of their issues are in the morning. so rather than 10:00 can we do

11:00 am instead. we mitt fwait on what they said earlier on what the issue. so we're not going to get along with the continuance which is i still maintain on a plan that works well, even if there is some cost in that first weekend, you know what we can do is we can shorten the time period of this permit to force that conversation much more soon and lower the cost on the community that said even on a saturday on the 700 block there is still cost. i guess if i were to be specific i would amend your motion to have the beginning time at noon and i would move to have the permit end on at the 30 june?

30th. >> and i'll jump in and can i just accept the amendment? >> pardon? >> can i accept the amendment, can i -- ~>> we do have more people. >> i'm in inclined to support the commissioner eppler's amendment the question i asked earlier which is i'm going to try to say this the best i can which is that the, oh god, the permit holder on days when there are not lion dance performance that the ambient sound, just prerecorded sound and music would be limited to a

25-foot boundary from the event, i'm sorry if i'm saying this wrong. can you help me? thank you, i wrote it all down and i still got it wrong. >> amplified to be measured at a distance of 25 or 50 feet from the event periphery. not to exceed ambient sound level. >> did you get that? >> no i did not. >> to not exceed ambient. i understand any prerecorded sound must be measured from the periphery. not to exceed ambient sound. >> okay. >> thank you. >> so if that amendment is also

friendly, i will vote for the motion. >> very very friendly and very much accepted. >> well i respect my colleagues attempts to get this resolved tonight. the reason we got here is because the chinese-american community was not included in the initial decision and discussion. and we've had an understanding of lack of notice and entertainment commission and and mta and they're look to address that. but we also heard that nobody had heard of any opposition except in the last two weeks.

we have business representatives and we don't know if they speak for the community or if there is one or two or three views of the very same issues that are involved. i don't think we should make a decision tonight without mixing the problem that originally existed which is stakeholders were not involved fully in the decision. and related issue, i think the best way forward is to give an

opportunity for all the stakeholders to be part of a decision and they can come back to us pretty quickly because, every one has something of value that they don't want to give up, so it will motivate them to come back and resolve this. i don't think that we can resolve it as try as we might. so i will not support a motion to cut and paste, move it a couple hours and there and because i don't think fundamentally we can't do what is needed which is have the community speak, the resident of 700 block as well as others. >> so commissioner transvina i hear you and support your decision, however i would not support your decision. my priority is to get the kids

back dancing on the street. my priority is to continue the traditions i was going to say trumpism, i'm going to say it better, my priority is to get the kids back on the street and let the culture be as dynamic as they have been. i understand your position and i agree with your position but i also look at the fact that we put some bumpers around this and june 30th is really 60 days away. you know, 80 days away, literally and i think the community can live with 80 more days and within that time do exactly what you want done. the entertainment commission, a new permit can go filed for. the entertainment commission will have breathing room to do what you're saying and the kids will not be pen alized.

i'm for the lion dance and i think 80 more days to june 30th, that's okay, that's really okay in the spirit of the children and in the spirit of continuing the culture dynamics of china town. thank you for letting me opine. >> commissioner so i can reclaim. >> let's follow the order, because i want to respond to what you said. >> thank you, i have the same mind of what commissioner swig just expressed and i agree with the language concern that commissioner transvina expressed. my position is that, the path that it's currently on the table is the only solution that addresses that has the potential to address the language concern, that's the

only one. because we're not going to do that and we're not going to do that before may 8th, even if we want to create a new process and bump out even further, do our own notice process that we've never done before and take that upon ourselves. but that that path is uncertain, it's new, it, it cancels more performances. so the solution that we've cobbled together at least gives us an avenue and again, it's entrusting the commission that they'll keep their word about fixing those language notice issues that are now in every one's radar. and you know, guess what? if we get to june 30th and

there isn't a deal and if there isn't a cure of the notice issues with the robust public hearing with the ec, then it sounds like mr. lau needs to go get another permit. and i would hope that in that permit application for something starting july 1, that by then, we would have those notice issues addressed before the ec with the new permit. so i, i also agree with that concern but i'm convinced thats the only path that gets us to cure that concern. >> i think actually, commissioner transvina is next, commissioner swigs. >> thank you, i don't want to

be painted as anti young person, particularly since some of the dancers are from my own high school, but i respect the other kids as well. we have we're not denying the lion dancers to dance. just on that block for a week or two weeks, the first week of may.

>> always, i you know, i i think think response what you said is that, if even if we were to continue this matter, it doesn't force anymore people to the table than the solution and i think this actually achieves your goal somewhat better in that it makes the whole process start over again for the permit application within the next 60 days, or sooner because they will have to start the applications pretty much immediately and to get a new permit by the end of june it has to be agendized

with the entertainment commission, there is all of these things in place already and because it's the, continuing it tonight would not bring all the rest of the merchants or the resident of the 700 block to the table and it would not guarantee it it might. the better way to get the people to the table or at least invite all the people is to restart this process again which is what is being accomplished by commissioner eppler's. i completely agree what mr. president lopez said about the language barrier. and for me the biggest issue is the cots is not not in our ability to do it. but i think this also, i'm

convinced the mr. lau and the stakeholders will come and amend the scot permit. that's all i wanted to say thank you. >> with that, why don't we call the question to vote. >> okay, do you want me to read out the motion. >> sure. >> so we have a motion from president lopez to grant the appeal and issue the permit not the condition that it be revised to require that entertainment and amplified sound will occur only on saturdays until june 30th on the 700 block of grant avenue from 10:00 am to 5 p.m. and further to require that any prerecorded sound be measured 25 to 50 feet from the event periphery and the sound should not exceed ambient.

>> i think president lopez accepted my amendment to start at noon. >> thank you, getting tired. >> yes, i understand. >> noon to 5. i think that covers it and -- ~>> ms. wyland, raising her hand. >> you need to choose 25 or 50 feet. >> i said 25. >> 25 feet, thank you. okay, on that motion, commissioner transvina. >> no. >> aye. >> aye. >> aye. >> aye. >> so that motion carries 4-1 and the appeal and we'll send the written decision out tomorrow. thank you. >> before we advance, we are past 10:00 o'clock. i would like to as a point of

information do we have can we do one more? and then, so this--so we'll go ahead. >> go ahead vice president. >> i'm concerned that if we don't do it, we're shooting ourselves on the foot with the next hearings which are really busy, we're rescheduling these three other hearings for future meetings. >> but in may, there are four appeals all of which are related so that's really one item. >> i believe it's two related. >> may 8th appeals are all appeals of notice of violations it would be easier to rescheduling four of them are related. i'm sure the people would not

be opposed because it prolongs the process. >> thank you everybody for coming tonight. sdmo. we want to check in with mr. teague on that? okay. okay we're contemplating the appeals. we need to check in with the parties, i'm sure they would not be opposed. >> can you remind me which. >> alameni and mcallister. >> okay, combined those two cases are just five separate nov, i forgot different properties. >> i can talk to you after. let's see with the current cases but these people have been waiting a long time are we going to hear another case.

>> that's what i would like, can everybody stay for one more? >> i can. >> i would rather not. >> i'll differ to commissioner swig. >> because i see us getting out of here at the stroke of midnight and that is, that's why we did it in the first place not to start at 10:30 so we're going on fumes and we're trying to get the hell out of here because we're tired and that's not fair to the you know, the hearing people. >> commissioner eppler. >> i'll go either way, i can probably make it through, but i don't want the commission to be compromised in any way by tiredness. >> what i will do is recess the balance of the agenda to our

may 8th meeting and until then, the parties for the remaining three items that are being recessed until may 8th, i would encourage you to reach out to our executive director about scheduling, if may 8th. >> hear you. >> we're recessing the last three items on the agenda for this evening, given that we're past 10:00 o'clock and we wouldn't real istically be able to finish before midnight that's why we asked for interest and content to continuing to a different date but i'm going recess the meeting, the three items that were originally proposed for tonight's agenda will be moved

to may 8th, before may 8th, i will ask any of the affected parties with these three items to reach out to our executive director if may 8th does not work, otherwise, the items are all recessed until may 8th's meeting and with that, the meeting is adjourned.

listen, your story line, it makes for incredible tv drama. thing is, your drug use is too adult for the kids, so i'm going to have to block you. oh, man. yeah. [inhales] well, have a good one. you're a nice lady. >> come shop dine and play. taraval street is open for business. >> [indiscernible] the owner of tabita's on taraval on-my

business is focus on [indiscernible] my mom's res aef and we make muffins and scones and cookies and everything home made. for me, it is being able to be a community cafe where everybody feels comfortable. please come in, play and eat at the tabita's cafe on 1101 teraival street. >> take time for teraival bingo, a community game supporting small business. anyone can participate. it is easy, collect special stickers on a bingy stale game board and enter a raff raffle event for a chance [music]

>> san francisco is known as yerba buena, good herb after a mint that used to grow here. at this time there were 3 settlements one was mission delores. one the presidio and one was yerba buena which was urban center. there were 800 people in 1848 it was small. a lot of historic buildings were here including pony express headquarters. wells fargo. hudson bay trading company and famous early settlers one of whom william leaderdorph who lived blocks from here a successful business person. african-american decent and the first million airin california. >> wilwoman was the founders of san francisco. here during the gold rush came

in the early 1840s. he spent time stake himself as a merchant seaman and a business person. his father and brother in new orleans. we know him for san francisco's history. establishing himself here arnold 18 twoochl he did one of many things the first to do in yerba buena. was not california yet and was not fully san francisco yet. >> because he was an american citizen but spoke spanish he was able to during the time when america was taking over california from mexico, there was annexations that happened and conflict emerging and war, of course. he was part of the peek deliberations and am bas doorship to create the state of california a vice council to mexico. mexico granted him citizenship.

he loaned the government of san francisco money. to funds some of the war efforts to establish the city itself and the state, of course. he established the first hotel here the person people turned to often to receive dignitaries or hold large gatherings established the first public school here and helped start the public school system. he piloted the first steam ship on the bay. a big event for san francisco and depict instead state seal the ship was the sitk a. there is a small 4 block long length of street, owned much of that runs essentially where the transamerica building is to it ends at california. i walk today before am a cute side street.

at this point t is the center what was all his property. he was the person entrusted to be the city's first treasurer. that is i big deal of itself to have that legacy part of an african-american the city's first banker. he was not only a forefather of the establishment of san francisco and california as a state but a leader in industry. he had a direct hahn in so many things that we look at in san francisco. part of our dna. you know you don't hear his anymore in the context of those. representation matters. you need to uplift this so people know him but people like him like me. like you. like anyone who looks like him to be, i can do this, too. to have the city's first banker and a street in the middle of financial district. that alone is powerful. [music]

>> making to may grandkids a program all about pop ups, artists, non profits small business in into vacant downtown throughout the area for a three to 6 months engagement. >> i think san francisco is really bright and i wanted to be a part of it revitalization. >> i'm hillary, the owner of [indiscernible] pizza. vacant and vibrant got into safe downtown we never could

have gotten into pre-pandemic. we thought about opening downtown but couldn't afford it and a landlord [indiscernible] this was a awesome opportunity for us to get our foot in here. >> the agency is the marriage between a conventional art gallery and fine art agency. i'm victor gonzalez the founder of gcs agency. thes program is especially important for small business because it extended huge life line of resources, but also expertise from the people that have gathered around the vacant to vibrant program. it is allowed small businesses to pop up in spaces that have previously been fully unaccessible or just out of budget.

vacant to vibrant was funded by a grant from the office of economic workforce development that was part of the mayor's economic recovery budget last year so we funded our non profit partners new deal who managed the process getting folks into these spaces. >> [indiscernible] have been tireless for all of us down here and it has been incredible. certainly never seen the kind of assistance from the city that vacant to vibrant has given us, for sure. >> vacant to ibvooerant is a important program because it just has the opportunity to build excitement what downtown could be. it is change the narrative talking about ground floor vacancy and office vacancy to talking about the amazing network of small scale

entrepreneur, [indiscernible] >> this is a huge opportunity that is really happy about because it has given me space to showcase all the work i have been doing over the past few years, to have a space i can call my own for a extended period of time has been, i mean, it is incredible. >> big reason why i do this is specific to empower artist. there are a lot of people in san francisco that have really great ideas that have the work ethics, they just don't have those opportunities presented, so this has been huge lifeline i think for entrepreneurs and small businesses. >> this was a great program for us. it has [indiscernible] opening the site. we benefited from it and i think because there is diverse and different [indiscernible] able to be down here that everybody kind of benefits from it.

[music] since the opening on third and mission in 2010 the grove is a epicenter. tis is part of the community. we bring tourist, we bring convention ears and have a huge group of locers who live here. we are their living room and love to see them on a regular basis and seek newcomers to the city of san francisco and serve them a good dose of san francisco hospitality. we make everything in house from scratch every dape we vahand carved [indiscernible] the chicken pot pie we serve

probably a hundred thousand if not more. roasted chicken, prime rib, salad[indiscernible] coffee cake and [indiscernible] all the pies are fresh baked. the home made cookies are done, once, twice a day, depending how fast they go. we believe in goold old fashion home cooked food. we want to be a welcoming, warm hospitable place for everyone to come and hang out. respond time with friends and family, meet new people. have important conversation. relax and enjoy, rejuvenate, get restored, enjoy one another and the at mus sphere the growth. the grove is over 730 to 830, 7 days a week, breakfast, lunch and dinner.

>> >> welcome to the city and county of san francisco abatement appeals board meeting this morning at 9:30 am., wednesday, april 17, 2024. this is regular meeting of aiding and abetting please mute yourself if not speaking. >> roll call. >> vice president chavez here. >> thank you. >> president neumann here. >> commissioner sommer here and commissioner williams here we have a quorum and commissioners commissioner

ald