help michael cohen who's already a witness who's coming in to this case under a lot of scrutiny. so this is what, if you're donald trump's defense team, you like to hear, something you can work with on cross, and later on discrediting the theory that's going to be advanced by the prosecution, once we get to summation and closing arguments. >> another really informative day on the stand, and one in which all of us are learning what it is to construct a case. vaughn hillyard, robert gibbs, stephanie gresham, adam pollock, charles coleman, i cannot imagine a better group of folks i have had this journey with. that's going to do it for us this hour. joining us for "chris jansing reports" every weekday on msnbc. our coverage continues with "katy tur reports" right now.

good to be with you, i'm alex witt in for katy tur. let's go to the courthouse, joining us from outside the courtroom, nbc news national correspondent yasmin vossoughian, 3:00 p.m. eastern, catch us up on today's testimony and what is happening right now. >> reporter: hope hicks integral to the prosecution here, alex, connecting the dots, and i want to talk to you first about a moment that just took place regarding the article in january 2018 that came out, revealing the payoff to stormy daniels from michael cohen, and how hope hicks framed that payoff, and let me read the verbiage inside the courtroom. can you describe the conversation and hope hicks saying this, it was the day after michael told "the new york times" he made a payment without trump's knowledge and trump said he spoke to michael and he paid

this woman to protect from a false allegation and michael had done it to protect him and had not told him anything about it. i had known cohen for three and a half years. i did not know michael to be a charitable person. he is the kind of person to take credit. trump thought it was generous for him to do and he appreciated the loyalty. michael felt like it was his job to protect him. that would be out of character. i don't know michael to be an especially charitable person. he wanted to know how it was playing out in the media. this is kind of part of what has been going on throughout the day, alex, which has been an incredibly interesting testimony, i have to say, from hope hicks, just 45 minutes in court, they are going into recess at 3:45. she has been connecting the dots. every person we have heard on the stand, rhona graff, david

pecker, hope hicks has been connecting those dots. she was asked the questions, who is allen weisselberg, what he did do in the trump organization, where did rhona graff sit. how close was she to the former president, thinking back to rhona graff's testimony about the fact that she knew stormy daniels had visited trump tower, inserted karen mcdougal's address and phone number into the former president's phone log. also they established a motive with hope hicks, and i bring that up to say it was the rapid fire questions that we heard from the prosecution to hope hicks. was the former president concerned after release of the "access hollywood" tape, concerned about learning a vote from women after the release of the "access hollywood" tape. was he concerned about how republicans were reacting to the "access hollywood" tape. they were painting this picture throughout the day of a man,

two, three weeks out. when the "access hollywood" tape was released and he was concerned about being able to win the election in just three week's time. and then we go back, of course, to the attorneys for karen mcdougal and stormy daniels who talks about the e-mails sent to michael cohen on october 26th and 27th. talking about the deal, the subsequent payoffs as well. hope hicks really connecting these dots, alex, and setting up the time line in the lead off to these ultimate payoffs. the other thing i will say is we know hope hicks' relationship with the former president of the united states, and one thing that has remained steadfast in the courtroom is despite the fact that there has been a cooling, alex, of their relationship since 2022, since she testified over the events leading up to and on january 6th, she still seems very loyal

and warm to the former president, despite the fact that reports inside the courtroom, the former president is not looking at him directly. she has glanced in his direction, but he's looking at the monitor, versus actually looking at her directly. all of this playing out in the courtroom behind me, alex, and i suspect by the way, because of the fact that we'll have only about 43 minutes left in the day in court, it is likely prosecution will not toss this over to defense for cross. they want to end this day on a high note in their court. >> all of which i agree, particularly the part that you just mentioned about hope hicks and the warm relationship she has with the trump family. the fact is, everybody, we are in a bit of a break. this is not an official break. but the court is allowing hope hicks to gather herself, and that is because she has broken down, just as yasmin was speaking and started crying. she started crying as donald

trump's defense attorney began his cross, and again, i'm reading this from what we're getting inside the transcript underway right now. it did not appear to be triggered by any specific question. bove had only asked her whether she focused on real estate at the trump organization, and here's an interpretation color, if you will, as to what we're hearing an interpretation from that question. as our colleague adam noted. her emotions seem to be reminding her how the trump family opened up worlds for her and essentially made her career. she is trying to collect herself right now. we are on just a delay. it is not an official break. hicks got emotional at the moment above which brings up the fact that the trump family gave her an opportunity to work. she started with the trump

organization back in 2014. this is a 35-year-old woman. so at the age of 25, freshly out of southern methodist university in dallas where she had graduated. this is a woman who was given a pretty darn prestigious opportunity within the trump organization. so we can understand that she is quite emotional about this, despite the fact that donald trump and she have not communicated since 2022. it was very much a close relationship, described almost like hope hicks being another daughter to donald trump. we have a wonderful panel with us here. chuck rosenberg, a criminal defense attorney, of course. and msnbc legal analyst, that's you danny cevallos, and "washington post" senior national political correspondent, msnbc political analyst, ashley parker, and chuck, you're a former u.s. attorney and former senior fbi

official and also an msnbc legal analyst. danny, with you being right here as we're reading hope getting emotional on the stand, quite unique, something you would expect given the nature of her? she's a straight shooter. she's tried to be. has said i'm here under subpoena. i don't want to be here. i'm nervous about being here. she's been under testimony about 45 minutes for the lunch break and the better part of an hour. >> witnesses get emotional. there's always a box of tissues close to the witness stand. it is surprising that hope hicks who has withstood the slings and arrows of being in trump's orbit for almost a decade is still getting emotional which shows that those witnesses who worked for or still work for trump are pretty loyal to trump and they don't want to be there. hope hicks, rhona graff, the other witness who testified, it

is surprising that hope hicks with all of her experience is getting emotional on the stand, but it really shows that she is still -- i don't want to say loyal because i don't want to suggest that would color her testimony but that this entire experience is difficult for her because she acknowledges, apparently, that the trump family gave her plenty of opportunities. she has said i'm nervous. she clearly doesn't want to be here. this this has got to be difficult for her. she has come across as a credible witness. the first, i would say, combination of a high profile, marquee name witness, but highly credible. you haven't had that with the other witnesses so far in this case. there is some for the defense in her testimony. for example, that she can't remember exactly if donald trump told her about his specific knowledge of payoffs and other things, so there is wiggle room

for the defense. i'm interested to see how they go after her on cross-examination. i expect them to be polite, explore what she doesn't know, what trump wasn't present for or didn't say he knew about, and maybe get off relatively quickly with hope hicks. >> so it took about five, six minutes for her to compose herself. we're being told she is back on the stand, but, chuck, what does it tell you, granted danny has described that this isn't unusual, thus the box of tissues nearby anybody testifying, but when it's coming to the defense, is that a catalyst for emotion or do you think it might be just the release of being finished with the prosecution for now? >> i think the latter, alex, it's a bit of an emotional release. very few people want to testify in court. in my experience as a prosecutor, i've had witnesses forget their own names, forget where they worked, forget where they lived. there are some people who testify routinely, you know,

expert witnesses, maybe an fbi or dea special agent, but putting those folks aside, nobody wants to be there, and so i think it is emotional. as poised and as articulate as hope hicks may be in venues in which she is more comfortable. this is not her place. this is not something she's used to. i don't see any basis for emotion. i agree with danny, i think the best cross-examinations generally speaking are polite and fast. they'll point out the things she doesn't know, and maybe try and dirty up michael cohen a little bit more. but we had always learned as prosecutors to keep it simple, keep it short, get them on, get them off. >> yeah, and in fact, she is back on the stand right now, and i want to correct myself because apparently the jury did leave, which would be a wise thing to do, right, danny, that wouldn't prejudice them watching her cry for four or five minutes, trying to compose herself. they did long beach the courtroom.

they have reentered and they started the defense cross-examination with her, and she immediately gets on the stand and apologizes. she says sorry about that. and then it's been said by the attorney, if you need a minute, just let me know. trump org ran like a family business and you met the family children, hicks is saying yes, you had mutual respect. she says yes. so you're establishing what about her right now, her hesitancy, the reticent nature of having to come here to testify, and to which side does that benefit? >> on cross, what the defense is going to try and establish really is not a lot. they're not going to spend a lot of time with her. they're going to establish what she knew, what her basis was for knowing things, maybe cast some doubt on whether she was present for conversations or whether she may have missed some things here and there. i don't expect them to keep her on very long. they're going to talk a --

>> i mean, we have, what, half an hour or so to go. >> very little time. it's theoretically possible. you have to go over all of the things they brought up on direct, at least anything where you can cast any doubt on what she said, and really probably go to michael cohen because once again, another witness has hit michael cohen with shrapnel, and michael cohen is increasingly coming off as kind of a comical character in a trial that is not comical at all. but the prosecution knows that. they knew this was coming. they're poised to deal with that, and they are all but conceding that michael cohen is a flawed character. but they're going to argue that his testimony and his evidence is not flawed. this is something that happens all the time. but it's also why hope hicks is an important witness because as i mentioned before, she doesn't have those credibility issues. she is believable. she may not have all the evidence the prosecution would want, but she's got some of it,

and she's an important anchor for testimony of other witnesses whose credibility may be a little more in doubt. >> chuck, what do you think, do you agree that the defense may try to wrap up with her in the next 30 minutes before being dismissed for the weekend. one of the benefits of them doing that or is there a benefit to hold them over, have the defense line of questioning be the last thing in the jurors minds, and come back and finish up with her on monday? >> it's no benefit to her to be held over the weekend. i'm sure she would like to be done with this whole thing. even after the defense cross examines ms. hicks, the prosecution may have an opportunity to redirect her, ask her questions once again to try and clear up or clean up anything that happens on cross. in my view it's probably best from a defense perspective to have the last word for the weekend. i'm sure the prosecution would

like to have the last word before the weekend. all of that aside, i mean, this minute focus, this intense focus on each question and each answer and who starts and who finishes is all going to get lost at the end of the day. because the case isn't going to turn on who finishes today and starts on monday, it's going to turn on whether or not they can prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. i would probably like to have my redirect at the end of the day, and let ms. hicks go and release her as a witness, and start fresh on monday. that's not up to me as a prosecutor. it's not up to danny as a defense attorney. it's up to the judge. >> and she was asked by the defense attorney who had mutual respect, she responds, yes, i really looked up to rhonna, and cohen, question mark, my only interaction with him was related

to his interest in the political operation. she's asked, your title was press secretary. yes. more politics, less hotels, you were putting together statements, yes. then asked, mr. cohen wasn't part of the campaign, her answer, no, he would try to insert himself at certain moments but he wasn't supposed to be on the campaign in any official capacity. there were things he did in a voluntary capacity because of his interest, and then was asked the campaign had separate counsel, yes. cohen was instructed to focus on president trump's business. yes, he was at the trump organization is hope hicks' response there. in 2015 and '16, that's where he still worked? yes. do things frustrate to go campaign staff, unauthorized, went rogue, hicks answers to that, yes. and then asked again to emphasize, he went rogue, and she answers yes.

so sometimes did things unhelpful, and she answers, he liked to call himself fixer or mr. fix it. it was only because he first broke it. there's an ouch right there from hope hicks. then we're going into asking about david pecker, and you met david pecker before trump org, and you had a sense of who he was, yes. trump gives a lot of feedback, she's asked, yes, he does. let me bring in -- actually, we'll have you ashley in a moment. i want to get back to you yasmin. when you spoke with us ten minutes ago, and you said it was the hope they would wrap up with the prosecution, and yet they have had to pivot to defense because it's just enough time to at least get this going. what are you hearing from inside the courtroom? >> reporter: i think there's a point to be made here about hope hicks credibility, and that is she is one of the only witnesses without a quote unquote kind of shady past, right.

we know the way the defense has gone about this is every time someone has taken the stand that has some sort of a shady past, for instance, davidson, right, hope hicks, excuse me, stormy daniels, karen mcdougal's attorneys, they would kind of get into the shady past of davidson and the clients he took on, tried to cut into the credibility of every witness or potential witness. hope hicks is a very credible witness for the prosecution. as you read, alex, she's also a credible witness for the defense as well, and that's why i found it to be really interesting as to how the defense was going to go about cross examining hope hicks. it seems as if they're going to use her to prove their point and the fact that the former president in a way was not involved in making these decisions to pay off stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, by saying, for instance, as you

ahead, that michael cohen only had to fix things because he broke them first, right? so in a way, hope hicks is not only bringing credibility to the case being built by the prosecution, hope hicks is also bringing credibility to the case being built by the defense as well. hence why she seems to be such an important witness to both sides here. >> moving to you, ashley parker, you have an outstanding article today that was just published, and it's just a really deep dive into hope hicks. give me your sense as you pull together the reporting here of how hope hicks feels about the predicament that she finds herself in right now. she's someone who doesn't seem to have ever saw the spotlight, yet she stood next to a president of the united states for a couple of years. is this something her testimony, her being in the spotlight that you would think she harbors resentment about? the pressure is clearly getting to her, thus the tears that were

on display, you know, ten minutes ago. >> from my reporting, she doesn't harbor any resentment towards the former president, certainly, about being called today, but she does have a lot of anger and frustration about it. she's made that clear to friends, she thinks it's a waste of time and money. this represents a star turn in a show that hope hicks wants nothing to do with. it's a little ironic, she's a former teenage model who kinded of spurns the spotlight. she's never liked that, and it's worth noting, this is just the latest iteration of something that is true for a lot of people in trump's orbit, but especially hicks, and it's that even in moments when she has tried to move on with her life, keep in mind, she left the white house in 2018, returned about exactly two years later for the 2020 reelection. his presidency ended. she was sort of scarce in those final days because she was one

of the few people who told him, look, you lost the election, there's not enough fraud here to argue it's stolen. you should focus on your legacy. she started her own consulting firm with a lot of clients, some overseas, but despite all of that, she keeps on getting pulled back into this almost magnetic force field that is trump's orbit, and part of that, again, as i described in my piece, she was sort of, you know, from the very first days been one of the worst employees on the campaign as a 26-year-old, she was the zelig of trump world. she was in and out of a number of meetings, at his side almost constantly, and so this isn't the first time she was compelled by congress to testify on january 6th. she's testified before both house and senate committees. she has testified before a grand jury. she was interviewed by special counsel robert mueller three times, and mentioned over 180

times in his report. so again, this is the latest iteration of hope. because of her proximity to trump and the controversies and scandals that exist in his world, the latest example of getting pulled back into something that she truly has no interest in. >> you wrote about, was it a chilling you used or cooling effect of their relationship when she did have to testify before the january 6th committee. was that when things turned? >> yes, it was. she leaves the white house, as i mentioned before, she's one of the few people who sort of speaks candidly to him. you lost this election. but even after that, he's at mar-a-lago, she's moving on with her life, splitting her time between new york and d.c., and according to people close to both of them, they talk on the phone from time to time. she's down at mar-a-lago to visit him occasionally. she worked on david mccormick's republican senate primary campaign in pennsylvania in

2022. she dealt with him on that. and so it's not until she goes before congress on january 6th, it's worth noting she was compelled to testify. this was not something she wanted to do. but when she did, two things happened, there was actual testimony, and then there was text messages of hers that she had sent on january 6th that were resurfaced by the committee. she says things like it's so sad, you know, he's destroying everything we fought for. the only jobs we're going to be able to get are at local proud boy chapters, and ivanka trump, the president's daughter was very upset about those text messages that hope had put that in writing. and trump himself, though he did understand she was called to testify, he felt she went further than was necessary. that's when there's this chilling effect. i have reported in the piece, they have not spoken since, but people close to both of them, who are in touch with both say look, these two people had an

almost familial relationship. there's a ton of shared history there, a lot of shared respect and affection, and they don't think the relationship is in any way ruptured. they think, you know, hope, if she wanted to could very easily return to the former president's orbit. but i think that explains what you were talking about at the beginning of this hour. it does help explain why she broke down. this is not comfortable for her to do. it's not something she wants to do. it's not something she wants toot with her former boss, the former president feet away, and it's not something comfortable for him to sit and listen to. >> before i get to vaughn outside the courthouse. let me ask you about her role on the campaign trail, ashley. she was known to field all of press calls, by your reporting, some 250 a day she would get. she was also the one to whom donald trump would dictate tweets and occasionally she

would have to siphon them off to somebody else to help post. is that your interpretation as well of the role she played? >> i mean, hope was donald trump's gal friday for lack of a better term. when they moved into the white house he stationed her in a desk more reserved for a junior aide, an executive assistant, but it was a sign of the respect and reliance he had for her. he wanted her literally right outside the oval office so he could call her in to meetings, ask for her opinion, chat with her. so he could gossip with her. and again, in this matter, two things, the trump white house as anyone who covers it knows was not one for a lot of traditional lines of hierarchy. he trusted hope, he wanted her there, and she was brought into a number of things you would not expect a young but very savvy,

talented, communications aide to be brought into. for instance, in a previous story i reported, hope was the one flying on air force one when donald trump dictated to her that misleading statement about why donald trump jr. met with russians during the campaign who were promising dirt on hillary clinton. his rival at the time. so she was there for everything. >> we're getting a read of what's happening right now on the witness stand. hicks is testifying that trump really respects what mrs. trump has to say, and that it was weighing on him the night that the "access hollywood" story came out, which brings us right to you, vaughn hillyard, nbc news correspondent, of course, outside the courthouse for us. that will contradict that which david pecker had said earlier in the trial when he said he didn't hear anything relevant to how this would be affecting the family or mrs. trump

specifically. it was all about, in his mind, the campaign. >> right david pecker, davidson, they talked about the implications it would have on the 2016 election, and that donald trump was foremost concerned in their minds with his stemming the flow of any additional salacious stories from coming up in the public because of the impact that it could have on the 2016 election, and what is being outlined over the course of today now by hope hicks was to a certain extent echoing that, would she have concerns for women voters, that was something talked about among senior staff. that would be worrisome for the campaign as they knew there were other allegations being discussed there, and currently what they were going back and forth with, donald trump's defense attorney, bove is asking her about the extent to which michael cohen, who technically didn't play an official role with the campaign, was a part of

the senior campaign leadership meetings at trump tower after the "access hollywood" tape came out. she was not present. at one point he was in london, and not there directly involved in the conversations, the campaign level about even when it came to an additional tape, which she ultimately called michael cohen about. and of course that alleged tape was what came to be known as the pee tape, that donald trump had been with hookers and engaged in lewd acts and talking with michael cohen, engaged and determined that that tape did not actually exist there. this is where it kind of goes to her acknowledging michael cohen's outside role, the one who had relationships with the likes of david pecker, and tmz, and would be able to answer those questions there. this was a moment where you're now looking at the defense team

for donald trump, also asking her about the first time that she heard, for instance, the name karen mcdougal, and she testifies here that, again, that that was when the "wall street journal" published their initial story on november 4th of 2016, which is getting, again, at the heart for this jury here to donald trump's defense, that hope hicks was not somebody who was intimately involved and aware of the alleged scheme that they are looking to prosecute donald trump over, and she is somebody who was so close and intimately aware of what was happening around him and the trump organization. and personal life, potentially would have been aware of that, and she is saying, look in response to the defense's questions, she found out about stormy daniels and karen mcdougal four days before the election, and this is part of the process the defense team has the opportunity to go with. >> so the karen mcdougal on november 4th is when she first

hears an inquiry. i'll get to that in a moment. she said at one point, vaughn that she had heard about stormy daniels, as much as a year beforehand, but in what context. since that's the focus of this particular trial? >> reporter: exactly, and i'm catching up with you in realtime. i don't want to answer out of turn if i could dodge that question for a moment here. >> no worries. you know who i will bring in, as you do your research, vaughn, we're reading this in live realtime what's happening inside the courtroom is "new york times" investigative reporter, david fahrenthold, as i welcome you, bring us back to the day that you drafted the e-mail to send to hope hicks asking for comment, right, and how things were expecting to unfold, and by the way, did i just get told --

okay. there will be no redirect, everybody, it is 3:30. hope hicks is now off the stand, which is very interesting. potentially unexpected. we have another 15 minutes or so theoretically until court will cease to be in session today to accommodate a jurors' request for a slightly early break. we'll see if anybody else takes the stand. david, let me get back one more question. i want to hear about the day you drafted the e-mail to send to hope hicks asking for comment, and what you expected to unfold as a result. >> right. so we this gotten ahold of the tape a few hours earlier and we wanted to publish it as quickly as possible, this video of donald trump talking in what he thought was private. we have this tape, we don't need you to confirm it's real. we want to tell you what trump's

reaction was. how does he explain what he's doing there. her first reaction which came from trump himself, that doesn't sound like something mr. trump would say. can you show us the video. and they admitted it, yes, this was mr. trump, but bill clinton has said worse to him. it was just locker room talk, sort of started to minimize what he said on the video. it's been fascinating to see this day play out from hope hicks' perspective. >> and by the way, everyone. just want you to know there will be nobody else taking the witness stand. we just heard from judge juan merchan. we're going to call it a week, i believe is what he specifically said, and they have broken for the weekend to return on monday morning. so what was hope's reaction after hearing the "access hollywood" tape. things changed. >> right. we sent them the tape, and they said this is him, trying to

minimize the language. it was locker room talk. people say this all the time. it's not the way i have heard anybody talk in a locker room. that was the beginning of trying to admit it and move beyond. >> how long did it take to send the tape, was it instantaneous, and her reaction to being queried about that, shock, is that how she reacted to it? >> it was all over e-mail. i didn't communicate other the phone. i can't read into her emotional state other than what she said today. i first reached out at 1:30 in the afternoon. we had a back and forth. it doesn't sound like him. i sent the video at 3:50 p.m. she called back at 4:00, and said it was him. i didn't understand her emotional state, but she was quite alarmed about it, and went through a series of possible responses, including, deny, deny, deny. >> why do you think this tape

and the internal reaction to all of it was brought up at this point during testimony today? >> well, remember, this case for the prosecution is a two-step case. got to prove two things, trump falsified documents, that's the easier part. that gets you to a misdemeanor. to get to a felony, you have to show he falsified documents to cover up another crime, and they're saying that crime was election interference, sort of lying in a way that would interfere with the 2016 election. you have to know that they were really worried about trump's status with women voters after the "access hollywood" tape, and worried enough to pay off stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. that's why they bring it up now, and also to sort of get people ready for the michael cohen segment of the trial, which as you said is going to provide a real link to trump, alleged link to trump, and the most troubled

witness that the prosecution is going to put on. >> david fahrenthold, thank you so much for weighing in in realtime as well. we appreciate that from you. just want to let all of you know, the jury has been dismissed, it's 3:34. they have gotten to leave earlier than usual and go home for the weekend. the attorneys remain, discussing the sandoval status. we will see what comes of that. again, we're just getting this realtime. so as we get that, we will let you know as well. as i bring back our panel, danny cevallos and ashley parker, being the defense attorney here with that experience under your belt, give me a sense of how the defense will be able to use what they gleaned from hope hicks today? >> there are some items for the defense in hope hicks testimony, and what i do typically in a case like this, i try to think about what i'm going to be using in any closing argument. it's a common misconception, when you cross examine a

witness, you need them to break down and admit the error of their ways. you really want to get the data points you need for closing and stop, just like chuck said, you stop asking questions. don't ask that extra question and give the witness a chance to ruin what you got. you take that fact. you don't need to argue it with the witness. you save it until your closing argument. that's what it's for. and so, for example, earlier this week, i saw something that i would probably expect you'll see in the defense's closing as a giant imax screen blow up, and it would be the contract signed by everybody, stormy daniels, keith davidson, except donald trump, it's a glaring absence. today you have a couple more points. you have one word that i think should be the defense's theme, and that word is rogue.

i believe you'll see that word many more times when the defense closes. >> in the application to michael cohen. >> in the application to michael cohen, that michael cohen went rogue. in a way, it's really the only narrow avenue the defense has left, this underlying transaction, they have to concede it. the other point is michael cohen calling himself mr. fix it. that implies that he gave that name to himself. he put that crown upon his own head and took it upon himself to, as hope hicks said, break things, and then fix them, so you have just two right there towards the end of testimony that are probably really helpful for the defense, and i suspect you'll see them again in closing, and i extra suspect you'll see the word rogue prominently as a central theme of the closing arguments. >> chuck, do you think the prosecution has missed any opportunity without doing a redirect before dismissing hope today, and presumably not

bringing her back on monday? >> i don't, alex. just as danny made the point that the defense got what they needed and stopped. the prosecution must have felt they too had what they needed. look, no witness is perfect. and no witness gives one side or the other everything they could have hoped for. in this case, i'm glad danny used the word. there are usually one or two themes in a case, 17 themes is a mistake. two themes is about right. danny talked about one, this notion that michael cohen was freelancing, that he was rogue, that whatever happened happened because of cohen and not because of trump. i think there's a second theme here, the notion that to the extent that they were trying to cover up payments to mcdougal and to stormy daniels and in reaction to the "access

hollywood" tape the theme would be from the defense perspective that they're doing this to protect melania trump and the trump family and not to commit or conceal election crimes. and that's kind of it. and so again, and danny articulated this well. when you get that point, when hope hicks says that mr. trump cared deeply about melania, and wanted to save her from embarrassment, you have hit one of your themes. when you get hope hicks to say that, you know, cohen broke everything that he touched, that he was, you know, he fancied himself mr. fix it, but only because he broke things in the first place, you've hit one of your themes, you're done. does the prosecution need to go back and fix things that they elicited from hope hicks, apparently not. they too got what they needed. day over, week over, see you on monday. >> okay. speaking of see you, we're going to see you both on the other side of the break. ashley parker, we're going to

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. at 43 past the hour. you're looking at the backside of donald trump who came out and made a statement, nothing that we all have not heard before. he went and railed against the new york attorney general, new york city, that is, alvin bragg and the attorneys and he was talking about the biden administration railing about

that, so, again, we were just listening to that, but he's done for the day at this point, and we will see whether he campaigns again this weekend. but let's go one more time with our panel, chuck rosenberg, danny cevallos, ashley parker. i want to ask you, as you listen to or at least heard the testimony of hope hicks. what's your big take away from what you've reported about her, about hope hicks, that you got to know, if you will, while learning about her temperament and her role in the campaign, and how she performed today? >> sure. so one thing that struck me was hope hicks, and this isn't my story, but this was also my experience reporting on the trump white house for four years, reporting on the trump campaign since just about the day he came down the golden escalator is that the trump white house was known for his warring factions and infighting and back stabbing, including in the media, and hope was one of the rare people who got along with all of these different factions. someone described her to me as

the glue between them. and part of that was because she is not particularly ideological. a lot of people would get upset if it felt like the former president wasn't going to go their way on a treaty issue they cared about or a foreign policy project they were invested in it. the way people described it to me in the way of my reporting on the story and the way i witnessed firsthand in the reporting on the white house and going back and forth with hope including on a number of stories that were not flattering to the then president was that she mainly was there because she cared about him and she cared about the family, and she wanted positive coverage for trump. and she -- when she would be working on a story that was going to be unflattering, she was upset about it for all the reasons a comps professional would be upset about it. but also coming through, but she

was upset that donald trump would react to it. everything we heard about her testimony is totally in line with that. the relationship has chilled. it has cooled. she is very clear eyed, according to friends, about the way she keeps getting pulled back into this orbit and chaos, because she understands, like everyone else, when you work for trump, you're sort of caught up in that whirlwind tornado, including all of the ill that comes with it. but, again, even though they haven't spoken since late 2022, when she testified before the january 6th committee, it was described to me as there is still a lot of warmth and affection between them. as you discussed earlier, it was him and his family who elevated her into this life changing role. again, a caveat, a life changing role for better and worse. but to me, that explains the sort of emotion we saw from her

today. >> you make a point how she was so well liked. i'll tell you last weekend, i had anthony scaramucci on my show, again, former white house director of communications under trump for a very brief time. nonetheless, he said, everybody likes her, i like her, and i hope she will do the right thing, anticipated that she would today and tell the truth, whatever query was asked of her, and then to your point, when you write, i hope we don't ruin hope, and that was the quote that you attributed to donald trump jr. shortly after his father won the presidency, and someone who heard his comments and spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were in the inner circle of the family. she clearly has this warm relationship, and it seems to know no bounds with anybody with whom she crossed paths in the trump white house and elsewhere. so as i go to you, chuck, what do you think the prosecution can make of her testimony, where do they use this as a spring board

with their next witness, and who do you think it might be? >> i'm not certain who they would call next but they are proceeding in chronological linear fashion. i imagine it would be other people like hope hicks who were in and around the campaign or in and around those meetings and had the ear of the president. i will tell you this, while the trial is over today for the jurors, danny knows this well, the prosecutors and the defense lawyers are going to be putting in an eight-hour day starting about now. lucky if they have dinner at their desks and working the entire weekend. i don't know quite what the ratio is, but somewhere between 10-1, to 20-1, for every hour you spend in course, you spend 10 to 20 hours outside of court. they may not know who they're going to call on monday, but they'll be prepping witnesses,

going over exhibits, honing their arguments because closing, and perhaps a cross for mr. trump, should he take the stand, is drawing near. there is an awful lot of work to do. if i were prosecuting this case, i would probably be deciding saturday while in the office, while putting in a 16-hour day who i would be calling on monday. >> during the commercial break, danny and i had the chance to talk, and you said you suspect a foundational witness. explain what you mean by that, and who that could be, at least by description, not by name. >> maybe. generally they have been following a pattern, that i have seen before, which is basically marquee name, and then ordinary person, ordinary person, marquee name. i hesitate to say ordinary, because for me, some of these a ordinary person, ordinary person, marquee name. i hesitate to say ordinary. for me some of these witnesses that you think aren't that important are critically important. things like introducing exhibits

like tweets or text messages or social media postings, those are critical. they may not be exciting. they might be boring like in the case of banking records. again, dario was an important witness. he lacks credibility problems and he can accomplish a major element of the case. it's so true, being on trial is soul crushing. there are lawyers out there, defense lawyers in the chalk striped suits and they love it and it's glorious and it's battle and fun, and then there's me. i don't see it that. it's so difficult. it's so challenging. things are changing by the moment. when folks ask, who are they going to call next, i think they have an order. there's a lot of improv for the prosecution. you don't see it, but there's

organized chaos going on because they have to build this case with cats they're herding. they just don't have to build a case. they have to build one beyond a reasonable doubt. make no mistake, chuck is right, the day is just beginning for counsel even though the jury may have gone home. >> can we share with the audience that you were going to try and make me laugh. you accomplished that. it's an arduous gig. >> trial work is really tough. there are folks that love it. they live for it. it's not me. it's too emotional. it's too involved. it's agony and to be avoided when possible. sometimes it's not. that's what a trial is. it's representation that each side sees a case forever in one way and the other side sees it

the other way. there's only one way to find out what's right. >> let's go to somebody loving her job right now. yasmin vossoughian, my colleague, who has been doing a great job with all of this. >> reporter: i mean -- >> you have. "a" for props here. let me ask you about the sandoval aspect, the latter part. is it over? is that whole thing discussed and they're done? >> reporter: i don't think it's ever over. i'm sure chuck and denny can back me up. that's why denny is now a tv lawyer because he hates trial law. i have to mess with denny. even as hope hicks left the stand, they had a brief sandoval hearing to discuss -- just to remind folks what a sandoval hearing is, if the former president decides to take the stand and testify, what is allowed as evidence.

todd blanche was offering that if the former president was found in violation of these gag orders in this court, which he has been found in violation of, that could not be admitted into cross-examination. judge juan merchan agreed. he said if he's been found in violation, which he has been, that would be prejudicial in allowing that evidence in. as we remember, the prosecution set forth the evidence that would be allowed in the the former president took the stand, part of that would be judgments in other courts, the definition case when it came to e.j. carroll, the trump civil fraud trial as well. judge merchan finding they cannot admit his violations of the gag order in this court because that would be prejudicial. one more thing, alex, we thought

this trial would take about four weeks way back when. they said we're predicting four weeks. judge merchan said have a great weekend. week three is in the books. i'm predicting this is going beyond four weeks. >> we thought it would take two weeks to establish a jury and seat them. they got the 12 jurors in the span of one week. it should be over if we cut it in half. we're not quite doing it that fast. i agree. it's moving very quickly. yasmin vossoughian, thank you. we have former homeland security adviser to vice president mike pence, olivia troye. olivia, welcome. give me a sense what you heard today from hope hicks through depiction of the trump orbit and compare that to your experience. >> look, i think hope is a very credible witness. she was very close to the circle

and she remains close to the circle. as i watched her testify -- i didn't watch, but i was reading the testimony and watching the news coverage of it, you know, i thought about the moral conflict and the dilemma she was facing as a person describing the situation and trying to remain factual, trying to honor her duty as a witness, but also trying to protect someone she cared about. there's no denying that, right? she was very close to donald trump. i got to know hope hicks during my time in the white house. i would say that she is one of the people that he trusted most over anyone. >> would you add your voice to the chorus, your name to the chorus of fans of hope in terms of respecting her and think you appreciate the way she carried herself throughout her time in the trump white house? >> you know, i actually did. i had a good working relationship with her. she exuded this quiet confidence about her. she was very soft spoken in

meetings. she was of very few words, but she was intelligent and she was easy to work with. she was helpful at times and, you know, when she came back to the white house staff that's when i got to know her. she was very close to jared kushner. she came in during the time of covid. she knew we were facing abundant challenges. i found her to be a reasonable player in the circle. i mean, that is why today i'm sure is tearing her apart. i do think she is a decent human being at the basic level who got wrapped up into this circle and when you get wrapped up into this circle, it's really hard to find your way out. >> you've mentioned -- let me ask you to draw on your experience working for vice president mike pence. i want to ask you in regard to what happens going forward with donald trump and the search he has to conduct to find a vice

president. the reality is all this time he is spending inside court now, it would have been advantageous to name someone who could have been out fanning the campaign trail and heading to swing states to try to drum up support. he's yet to do that. there are a couple things going on i want to make note of this weekend at mar-a-lago. there's a huge fundraiser that will be in florida. it could be seen as a screening, a vetting process of sorts. give me a sense of the importance of the vice presidential pick for donald trump this time around. it will not be your former boss. that is for darn certain. >> right. >> the role this person will be playing and under the veil of this court, trial and more to come. >> i think this person is going to be critical. it's going to be someone that has to carry on the message for the trump campaign.

they'll have to mitigate the chaos with all these lawsuits and everything that trump is facing and try to figure out how they deliver what they will do in four years in the white house in terms of policy and initiatives and things like that that matter in a presidential campaign. that's what people want to hear. i also think he's taking his time and screening these people because he's watching them closely. he's watching their reaction to these cases. he's looking for the consummate loyalist that will not break rank with him and fall in line behind him. that's what he's looking for. regardless of what their policy views may be, that's the bottom line for him. >> let me ask you, give it to me in 15 or 20 seconds, what do you think about j.d. vance? donald trump is attending a fundraiser for him. do you think he's in the orbit of those being considered as a vice presidential pick? >> yes, because, if you watch

the decline of j.d. vance's morality in real time, he is perfect for that job. now, whether he brings any addition to the table, that's a different question. given the down playing of january 6th and the down playing that my former boss' wife was in peril that day and how close he came to killing him, and for him to go on tv and say he wasn't in danger, tells you how conniving that person is to what that role. >> olivia troye, always appreciate your voice. we've had chuck, danny, ashley, yasmin and vaughn as well. thank you. that does it for me today. i'll be back saturday and sunday at 1:00 p.m. eastern. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ ♪♪