. welcome back to our second hour of "chris jansing reports." to quote former trump white house aide hope hicks, this was a crisis, a damaging development that would push things backwards, that's the moment she describes after the height of the 2016 campaign. she'll be back on the stand just about 15 minutes from now, when court breaks for lunch. the prosecution set to begin questioning her about how the pressure on the team continued to build after adult film stormy daniels and karen mcdougal came forward with accusations that they had had affairs with trump. i want to bring in nbc's vaughn hillyard reporting from outside the courthouse in new york. also with us, robert gibbs,

white house press secretary under president obama and msnbc political analyst. adam pollock, and charles coleman, an msnbc legal analyst. vaughn, i want to start with you. you have kind of lived all of this from the beginning to the end. as you watched what unfolded today, help us understand it, but also put all of that testimony by hope hicks which was pretty dramatic in the context of what we knew at the time. >> reporter: exactly, it's dramatic because hope hicks was somebody who testified today that she was intimately involved with donald trump in what was a very small campaign brass that included keith shiler and corey lewandowski and michael cohen, the outside personal lawyer voice who maintained a quasi role with the campaign, representing donald trump. in this, for hope hicks and for the jury here, is a key, crucial

witness that knows donald trump so well, but also was a trusted adviser and aide, somebody whose words were never really highly scrutinized, somebody who donald trump has never publicly blasted or tried to undercut the reputation of. but what hope hicks ultimately testified today was two-fold, number one, she did not testify that she was aware of any conversations about a catch and kill scheme as part of that august 2015 meeting between david pecker, michael cohen and donald trump. she also testified that on october 8th, the day after that "access hollywood" tape drops that in phone calls she had with donald trump and michael cohen that she was not a part of any conversation related to stormy daniels, and instead she didn't become aware of stormy daniels and karen mcdougal just four days before the 2016 election when a "wall street journal" reporter reached out for comment about the story that he was

about to publish. but she also, hope hicks, was crucial for the prosecution and the reason why the prosecution before her before the jury because she was able to effectively testify just how much in october of 2016, concern around these women and these salacious stories and the allegations which she called damaging stories and damaging developments about donald trump came as a result of that "access hollywood" tape dropping. she went to trump tower after receiving an e-mail from the "washington post" just before the publication of the "access hollywood" tape. she said her initial reaction was deny, deny, deny, until she brought it to senior advisers and trump himself and it became obvious that the story was true. that's when eventually, of course, the women voters became a concern for the campaign, and she testified that over the course of those following weeks that the forefront were the allegations and the extent to

which they understood they needed to quash the stories around these damaging allegations about donald trump, including there in that final week of the campaign when she herself brought a draft statement to donald trump and then he, with michael cohen worked to try to rewrite the statement that they ultimately brought to the "wall street journal," one in which they ultimately denied having any awareness of the arrangement between the "national enquirer," karen mcdougal, as well as stormy daniels. >> so, adam, all of this must be leading to a point that they hoped to get to in the next 15 minutes when they resume their questioning of hope hicks, and before the jury goes home for the weekend, you love to leave them thinking about exactly all the things that they've talked about. what is it that what we've heard so far this morning is leading to this afternoon? >> it's leading to the stormy daniels story mattered, mattered to the campaign. trump wanted, would have wanted

the story to go away. "access hollywood" was tremendously damaging, that under states the gravity of the situation, and they didn't want the stories coming out in the middle of the campaign. >> how do you get to that point? >> they'll be asking her, what was the situation, what was the worry, even if she's not going to be able to testify, even if she wasn't in the room with the deals about stormy daniels, she'll be able to testify what was going on in the room of the campaign, what were they looking fo what were they trying to kill, what was the panic around the "access hollywood." >> you're nodding, charles. >> i am because again, this is so central to the prosecution's point. >> are we getting to the meat now, sort of? >> almost. we're getting closer than we have been. people have to understand, because a lot of folks really may not get that the notion of hush money by itself is not illegal. and so in terms of establishing the case as alvin bragg has

brought the indictment he has to be able to prove that this was done to try and impact the election. that's when the combination of the falsified business records along with the ultimate crime that it was attempting to further are going to matter most. and so these points, although they may seem overblown, they're really essentially because if they get this wrong, their case goes out the window, which is why the emphasis on the impact of the "access hollywood" tape as well as the concern about the other stories has to be driven home to the jury and you want to err on the side of making it extra clear, rather than not making it clear enough. >> what do you think about -- and david fahrenthold, a well known journalist broke the story for "the washington post," and he said this, when i reached out to hope hicks about the "access hollywood" video while i was working at "the washington post," we already knew the tape was legitimate, but we wanted to

know how trump would explain his words. her first reaction was, again, in his conversation with her, that doesn't sound like something he would say, which is exactly what today, this morning, she testified as he told her when she reported what was on that tape, that doesn't sound like something i would say. does it send a message to the jury that donald trump is someone who's just going to deny, deny, deny, change his story. is that part of it significant? >> i don't know that that part is significant. i think what's most significant about it is the congruence between her comment and what he actually said. what it shows is even though she wasn't in the room with the catch and kill with stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, shed a real inside track into how donald trump thought. so in terms of someone who could actually communicate how much of

an impact these stories had and how concerned they were, not only as the campaign, but for donald trump, the actor, the defendant in this case, she is the one who can literally choose words out of his mouth and communicating that and making that clear is really essential to bolstering her credibility as a witness. >> robert, as someone who has worked in the white house, what do you think the jury needs to understand about the position that hope hicks had not just in terms of the fact that he clearly trusted her, that she admired him, but also just the proximity she had. she was going in and out of meetings all the time. i don't know about you, but not a lot of people i saw when i worked at the white house who just wander in and out of meetings at will? >> well, that's the good thing about, quite frankly, a valued press person is you have immediate access to the principal to ask them what their feelings and what their thoughts are, to get their reactions. your job is to convey their

response. look, i think the prosecution is clearly putting her central to, as vaughn said, it's a small campaign apparatus, and she was central to that apparatus both in the campaign and in the white house. there were very few people that were as close to trump as she was. i think they'll continue to establish that, continue to establish the central nature of her role and to establish this idea that she had the ability to go ask him questions and get that information. good press secretaries in the white house or in a campaign have access to the candidate or to the president so that they're not just making it up as you go along. you're getting that guidance directly from the principal. >> adam, hope hicks testified for more than eight hours behind closed doors at the house intelligence committee where she declined to answer a lot of questions, but did, this is according to "the new york times," quote, she did say that her work for president trump who

has a reputation for exaggerations and outright falsehoods had occasionally required her to tell white lies. what does that tell to the jury? >> i think that the prosecution here is painting a broad picture of salacious witnesses, of salacious witnesses who lie, who aren't with the truth at all times, who are willing to fabricate because that gets to the heart of the charges here. the heart of the charges is fabricated records. >> trump treated, charles, hope hicks, almost like a daughter, and he, as vaughn pointed out rightly, i've never heard him whisper a bad word about her, not usual, right, in trump world. what are the chances that could complicate any kind of cross-examination, even though i should say some reporting has been that after she testified for the january 6th committee, he wasn't as fond of her necessarily as he had been

previously. >> right. and i do believe there are some reports coming out of there that we don't know how eager hope hicks has been to take the stand in this case. this is a complicated matrix we're working with around the witness. the tweet from donald trump doesn't necessarily matter because the jury at least in theory is not supposed to see it. so they're not going to see or they shouldn't see it or shouldn't hear about it. in terms of whether it affects hope hicks presentation on the stand as a witness during the cross-examination, that is largely going to depend on how aggressive his attorneys are with respect to the questions that they ask. if you have a witness who you believe could be friendly to you on cross-examination, you will do your best to lead them in a particular place you want them to go,and if they are as friendly as you believe, they're going to go with you. if they resist or stop giving you the answers you want, then it becomes more contentious and

we might see fireworks fly. whatever it might run contrary to the spirit of when it was he decided to put in this tweet about hope hicks being like a daughter. >> robert, an awful lot of voters, and certainly the voters in 2016 knew this stuff. most people had heard about this stuff. the details and the granular details in some cases that we're getting to, the new perspectives on it, are different and i wonder in democratic circles and the conversations you're having if there is a belief that going over this again and again and again. but also introducing some, again, new perspectives for it could have implications for november. >> i think absolutely. look, i think in many ways, one of the things that was central to joe biden's candidacy in 2020 was i'm going to be a good steward, and you're going to forget the chaos. and all of these trials, all of these witnesses, all of this

testimony, just reengages this notion of remember how chaotic not just the campaign was but ultimately what the white house was like, and i think that is a helpful thing for democratic voters to hear, really helpful for swing voters to be reminded of just what it was like during those times. you know, the frantic tweets, the sort of howling at the moon, if you will, the tear down of even your own staff, and just the sheer chaos of it all. that was what biden was trying to fix and the reminder that could come back, i believe, will land well for the biden campaign. stand by. coming up, donald trump's former white house communications director will join us live with her impressions of hope hicks testimony so far. prosecutors are at the table in the courtroom. we're waiting for donald trump and his team to arrive. we'll have much more on "chris

jansing reports" after this. rep. custom scans help you find new trading opportunities, while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades and stay on top of the market. e*trade from morgan stanley (ella) fashion moves fast. an(jen)y on top of the market. so we partner with verizon to take our operations to the next level. (marquis) with a custom private 5g network. (ella) we get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. (jen) that's enterprise intelligence. (vo) it's your vision, it's your verizon. nexium 24hr prevents heartburn acid before it begins. get all-day and all-night heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day. choose acid prevention. choose nexium. (ella) fashion moves fast. (jen) so we partner with verizon choose acid prevention. to take our operations to the next level. (marquis) with a custom private 5g network. (ella) we get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. (jen) that's enterprise intelligence. (vo) it's your vision, it's your verizon.

i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up, i've got symptom relief. ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ feel significant symptom relief at 4 weeks with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements. skyrizi is the first il-23 inhibitor that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. and the majority of people experienced long-lasting remission at one year. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. liver problems may occur in crohn's disease. ♪ now's the time to ask your gastroenterologist how you can take control of your crohn's with skyrizi. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ ♪ learn how abbvie could help you save. norman, bad news...

i never graduated from med school. what? but the good news is... xfinity mobile just got even better! now, you can automatically connect to wifi speeds up to a gig on the go. plus, buy one unlimited line and get one free for a year. i gotta get this deal... that's like $20 a month per unlimited line... i don't want to miss that. that's amazing doc. mobile savings are calling. visit xfinitymobile.com to learn more. doc?

just moments ago, donald trump returning to the courtroom where he has now arrived inside. sat down at the defense table with his attorneys, and todd blanche is immediately whispering to him. the jury has not yet come in to the courtroom. and about to return to the stand is donald trump's former aide, hope hicks, who has been described as mysterious. the only time they have heard her voice is in this video played before the january 6th committee. >> i was becoming increasingly concerned that we were damaging -- we were damaging his legacy. >> what did the president say in response to what you just described? >> he said something along the

lines of, you know, nobody will care about my legacy if i lose. so that won't matter. the only thing that matters is winning. >> joining us now is stephanie grisham, the former chief of staff and press secretary for first lady melania trump, and former white house communications director and author of the book "i'll take your questions now, what i saw at the trump white house," also with me, "washington post" investigator, josh dossey. as to what you saw, we've talked a lot, stephanie, for the last hour and fifteen minutes about the access that hope hicks had, the relationship between her and donald trump, but you saw it up close. what can you tell us? >> yeah, you know, watching the trial today has been a lot of mixed feelings. i can only imagine the sense of anxiety that she had. i joined the trump campaign in july 2015 so i was actually the

second press, communications person to join the campaign after hope, so i worked with her for six years. all of the reports are correct, she and the boss were extremely close. he trusted her with everything. she traveled with him everywhere. it was funny. hearing her say that she had to put any statement past him or any response to the media past him is exactly correct. i was always flying with the press during the campaign, and if i had to answer the press, i had to go through hope who had to go through trump to make sure i could give them even a simple answer like yes we're going to iowa tomorrow. he was very involved. >> you said something i'm not sure you're aware you said it, but you called donald trump the boss. and that was something that was repeatedly said in testimony, particularly as it related to things that michael cohen said about who was driving this train. is that a phrase that everyone around the white house and

around donald trump used, the boss? >> yes. absolutely. and as you can see, i still use it too because it was something i said daily. it started on the campaign, and even throughout at the white house, it was always the boss. >> josh, what does the level of access to donald trump and those around him bring to this trial for hope hicks? >> one of the most interesting parts of hope's testimony just as it's been to the house committee, to special counsel mueller is how much she saw, how often she was in the room. she was in and out. a few people besides his family who were closer for such a sustained period of time. right? i mean, there were people who sort of zigged and zagged in and out of trump world. for as long as she was there, she was there for most of the

last six, seven years. you have to imagine if you're the former president, it's a strange and surreal feeling sitting in the courthouse as a defendant and watching her on the stand. >> so hope hicks, stephanie, has gone back on the stand, and she mentioned we're very much at the beginning of her testimony, that she's not been in touch with donald trump since, i think it was the summer or fall of 2022, is what she said, so it's been at least a year and a half since she had communication with trump. as hope hicks entered, came into the room, she walked by donald trump without looking at him. and trump has been staring straight ahead, not looking at her. people in the room say if he is looking at her, it's at a monitor, not at her directly. should we read anything into that? what do you know about their relationship if anything, now? >> it's my understanding that during the january 6th committee, some text messages

came out between hope hicks and another white house colleague that weren't so pleasant towards donald trump so i don't believe they've spoken. but i believe she's still close to ivanka and jared. she had a close relationship with them as well, and i think, you know, in terms of the way she walked into the courtroom and the way he's behaving, take away how you feel about donald trump, just imagine on a human basic level, you spend so much time with this person when you're on the campaign trail, it's 24 hours a day, seven days a week, going into the white house, it was the same thing, you were around him so much. you get to know him on a personal level. your actual job is to defend him. you see sides of him that are good in your opinion it would be awkward. i have anxiety watching it on her behalf. i'm not in the room. i would imagine it's awkward, and for him too, he knows full well, she's one of the few

people aside from dan scavino that know everything that's happened. i'm sure he's wondering what's come out of her mouth. she's a very intelligent woman and she's got a great memory. >> our person who is inside who is watching this all or at least is in the overflow room, which in some ways is better, it has a direct camera on the witness, the prosecution and defense. you can clearly see hope hicks and clearly see donald trump, but she's reporting that she had gotten more relaxed. in fact, several people who came in during the lunch break said she was nervous at first, and got more relaxed. she looks more tense once again, and i think it speaks to what you said, it gave you anxiety just watching it or knowing about it. why? >> why did it give me anxiety? >> yeah. and why do you think it's making her clearly nervous? >> oh, yeah, absolutely, because, again, it brings up such memories. i was with them for six years as

well. i traveled with her all the time, with him all the time, so there's little things coming up that brings back memories, some good, some very very bad, and i'm sure to some extent, she feels like she's betraying him. she's there via subpoena. she's not there voluntarily. this has got to be a difficult position for her to be in. i know myself sometimes speaking out, i still feel guilty every now and again because when you spend, again, on a human level, so much time with a person and a family, you do get to know them in a way that the public doesn't. so i'm sure that, you know, there's been the break. i'm sure she's been getting texts and e-mails and hearing about the coverage, and i'm sure, yeah, once again, she's probably stressed out a bit, and will hopefully relax as time goes on. >> i'm going to quote you. hicks is rarely seen, her disdain for the spotlight is matched by the loyalty to the

man who loves nothing more. it talks about the fact that she was never one to run in front of the cameras. loyalty as we know, means everything to donald trump, and he's already seen, by the way, a former friend or acquaintance testify here. what do you think it means now for him to see her up there? somebody he can't at least according to reports in the courtroom that he doesn't even want to look directly at? >> well, hope was never really someone who wanted to be on tv. there was a cadre of trump advisers, who network all the time, and others like hope who do not really enjoy that. seem to derive power and influence as being a voice behind the scenes. so watching her sort of in the center, the spotlight here, as that article reported but as we've seen for years and years and years, is not someone who wants to be here. i think to stephanie's point, quickly a lot of folks over the last few years have been

subpoenaed, lots of legal bills, really uncomfortable situations, and i think hope is the last person who would ever want to be sitting on the stand like that and dragged into these things time and again for affiliation, association with him. >> i want to go back into our document, which is going sort of play by play of what's happening inside the courthouse. and this is from the morning of november 4th. worth remembering, november 4th, 2016, was four days before the election. lots of people, millions of people were already voting, early voting. so the prosecutor, where did you start on the morning of november 4th. and hope hicks says i think we started in ohio. ohio was the first stop of the day or one of several. one of several. if we had more stops we typically stopped earlier, if we

had two or three, might start later, get to the office at 7. but leave for the airport throughout the fall of 2016, and that's when he asked the critical question he's getting to. did the "wall street journal" publish the story? this is the one that we have been talking about. exposing this relationship. yes, the "wall street journal" article gets shown. remember, they have these big screens in front of the them as well. each juror has a screen. this is exhibit 180. the "national enquirer" shielded donald trump from playboy models affair allegation. the response from hope hicks campaign spokeswoman which is included in the "wall street journal" article, we have no knowledge of any of this. meaning ms. mcdougal's claims of an affair with donald trump, and she said at that point, it is totally untrue, not perhaps, charles, the most comfortable moment on the stand for hope hicks, but why are they drilling

down on that? >> they're going to because they have to deal with the credibility and the inconsistency of what it is. either you knew and you lied or you didn't know and you're not as close to the situation as we want you to believe. one way or the other, they have to figure out how they're going to spin the narrative around this clear inconsistent statement, that we know to be true when you presented her as a witness so close to the situation that she would have had to know everything. it's one of those things, you know is coming. it's going to be asked about. and there's been a strategy developed to address. this happens frequently that you have an inconsistent statement that you know is going to surface during the course of the trial, and you can't let that statement or being afraid of a statement like that, take your witness or take you away from leaning into a witness who like hope hicks is very strong. >> josh dawsey can you imagine a better tour guide for the

campaign on that day than hope hicks? >> no, i can't. i mean, i just can't think of anyone else who would see more, know more, access to the other advisers. if you were trying to get inside in that period of time, i don't know that there would be anyone who would give you more visibility than hope. >> one of the things, and they are literally just putting this in there now, but she said i don't remember him saying that verbatim. in other words, the denial, but that was sort of the impetus, the point, the consensus of the conversations that everybody was having. the campaign wasn't aware of the deal with ami, which of course is the parent company, as everyone now knows of the "national enquirer," and the dole that they had particularly with ms. mcdougal. my recollection is, and this is what she said, this is what was told to me and why it was provided as a statement. this isn't atypical of the way

campaigns are run. you go to sources, you talk about what you're going to put out there. this clearly points to the fact that this is what everybody was saying, including, if i may use the words of stephanie grisham, the boss. >> and in 2016, the former president had a pretty lean operation. there was not this huge roving band of people around him. it was, you know, a few people, hope among them. who were there in that period so i don't know, they're just not similar things. in 2020, they tried to have more people who work for them. there was still only a loving small group of people they trusted and i think that was true here. there were only a few people who knew exactly what he was doing, and she was among them. >> josh dawsey, i want to thank

you. she made a point of saying early in her testimony that donald trump was not paying for her lawyer. how well prepared does she seem to you? obviously some very uncomfortable questions. >> i think she's pretty strong. i mean, but at the same time, let's keep in mind what stephanie was talking about. this is not someone who is an unintelligent person, and her experience with the january 6th commission gives her a significant amount of leg up in terms of being able to testify and ask questions under oath and the pressure cooker that that can be for any witness. having donald trump in the courtroom sitting there, it's a different environment than being in washington and talking to the commission and the investigators. nonetheless, you can surmise as someone who has dealt with communications, who has had to have difficult conversations, she's not facing her first rodeo here, and i think that combined with the level of preparation

from her attorney is making her a steady witness in a place a lot of people would have challenges. >> for a lot of people when hope hicks was brought into the campaign, there were raised eyebrows, people questioning why is she there, what is her level of experience, right. again, we were saying earlier, this was not a conventional campaign. this was not necessarily staffed with people who had decades of experience running presidential campaigns in the way that donald trump's opponent did, but i wonder your observation of hope hicks, the level of sophistication, did it grow, the level of knowledge, how government and politics works over the years that you knew her. >> it's funny, just again, talking about this. and i was saying to bring a bunch of memories, when i was brought on to the campaign, i was one of the only people who had political experience having worked for the romney/ryan

campaign in 2012. i walked hope hicks through a lot of things, just about what a press pool was, a protective pool, why there's rules about going on the record and background. she grew. she was very sophisticated in communications and pr when she started, let me be clear. she had worked for a pr term, for ivanka before she joined the campaign. the political part of it. it was a big learning curve for her. she got it. she got it quick, and she did a good job, especially for such a hard principal. there's more going on insides room, and i want to ask you about it, if i can, charles. text messages from michael cohen to hope hicks. this one, michael cohen saying call me, any news. any news. now, we're at three question marks. first one only had any news? and then any news, and three

question marks. the prosecutor says, what was he asking about. i don't actually know other than pickup of the story. and then there are more texts. do you have a memory after the article was published online of what was the michael cohen response, and that was, according to hope hicks, lots of innuendos with little facts. anytime we're looking at something brought into evidence with michael cohen, and as of just yesterday, his name had been mentioned a thousand times in this trial. i don't know where we are now, but when we went on the air yesterday, his name had been mentioned over the course of the last three weeks more than a thousands times. almost every time michael cohen gets mentioned, there's a specific reason going forward why this is happening. >> it is. you have to understand in terms of making connections and corroboration, it's easier when everybody is in the same room, the same conversation, as

opposed to when they're spread out, and that's ultimately what you want to do with these text messages is you want to connect the proximity, lessen the proximity or increase the proximity michael cohen as an actor, chief actor, central figure to hope hicks, someone whose testimony is largely unsullied and hasn't been more or less challenged, at least not as of yet because she hasn't been cross examined. the closer you can do that, because, again, she's not able to necessarily testify to the hush money payments or the catch and kill because these are conversations she may not have been privy to. the fact that there was a connection and communication between michael cohen and hope hicks is something that prosecutors want to bring out. what it does is it creates a nexus of communication such that you could bridge donald trump or at least the people closest to or being instructed by the boss

with everything else that's going on. >> at least reading this document, vaughn hillyard, so far in the testimony, hope hicks has been pretty tight, very calm. that is her normal personality, we should say. that is one of the things we have talked about attracting her to the family that she was calm under fire, but now in the testimony, they're talking about her laughing and giggling uncomfortably, what's going on inside the courtroom? >> reporter: it's because private text messages of hers between michael cohen the night of november 4th and the morning of november 5th are being read aloud for the jury here. these text messages came after the "wall street journal" article published detailing the arrangement of $150,000 to karen mcdougal to silence her story. in the exchange about the news development and the lack of traction, the fact that they had

gained over the final week of the campaign, they were both celebrating. cohen texting hicks, i see only six stories getting little to no traction, hicks responded, keep praying. it's working. there are more text messages in which they are asking michael cohen to hope hicks, new news, new news, what do you mean this is, you know, essentially wasn't getting wall-to-wall coverage. another statement from hicks here, both of these individuals were clearly watching closely how much the allegations that were being publicly brought to the bloodstream through the "wall street journal" reporting were gaining traction with other outlets, noting that even cnn wasn't reporting on it in one text from hope hicks shows the level of awareness they had about the potential damage of the allegations from karen mcdougal and stormy mcdaniel

could have in the final days. >> keep praying, it's working. in the way, robert gibbs, that stephanie was talking about a lot of this is taking her back or dredging up memories, just the idea of campaign's private text messages, yeah, being out there i don't know anybody frankly who texts very much would want their text messages to be public. but in a campaign, let me get your thoughts on what we're hearing from court right now? >> well, i mean, i bet it's anxiety inducing. text, that's your intimate thoughts, and you're thinking through, you know, how is the story progressing, what do we need to do. who do we need to talk to. all of these things are going through your mind. you're texting people at headquarters, you're texting other staff.

it's the quickest way to get in touch with people, the quickest way to spread information, and it's deeply likely that they're going to be very instructive to both their state of mind of what's going on, their actions, and, so, you know, for some of us, it's fascinating to understand and see what's happening, at the same time, anxiety inducing given the fact that you're privy to something like this. now this is getting really interesting. so at one point hope hicks sends a message to michael cohen and she's asking for david pecker's cell phone. oh, your eyebrows, i don't know if you know that. i wish we could have been on camera, his eyebrows went up to his hairline. >> that's a very big deal. >> hicks says, i have it but i think it's wrong. then she sends one, because apparently that was a number he called from that morning. so they affirm, apparently, and

they redacted it. people shouldn't go looking for his private phone number. the prosecutor says why did you ask for pecker's number. hope hicks, because mr. trump wanted to speak to him. all the lines are being drawn together, not just hope hicks to michael cohen, but then to david pecker to donald trump. >> i think that as a prosecutor, you have times when you're trying a case where, you know, you don't want to say things could not be going better. i'm sure adam can understand this. this is one of those times that the evidence just starts lining up and you want to get out of there as quickly as you can. you're getting what you need, and later on you'll tie it up for the jury. that's a beautiful piece of information for the prosecution because thus far, we have not necessarily seen hope hicks connected to anything around

that transaction. the question, of course, if i'm the defendant or the defense counsel is did you know why, did he tell you why, did you ever speak to him about why or just carry out that order, and that goes back to your earlier question, chris, where you asked about what type of witness do we expect hope hicks to be on cross-examination. if she is a cooperative witness for the defense, she's going to say i don't know why he asked me for the number. he just asked me for the number. that's it. i had no idea what the reason was or what it was for. nevertheless, the fact that there is that connection between hope hicks asking for that number from michael cohen now puts her closer to this overall conversation around catch and kill and the hush money just scheme in a way that previously she wasn't but is extremely helpful for the prosecution. >> stephanie grisham, i want to read to you something that's going on in court right now that's being testified to, and

i'm doing it understanding that you were press secretary for first lady melania trump. and the prosecutor is asking what the reaction was to the "wall street journal" article to which hope hicks said, it was muted, all things considered. didn't seem to get a lot of traction, which is the whole thing about prayers and, you know, let's hope it keeps going this way. trump was concerned about the story and how it would be, the effect on his wife, and to make sure the newspapers were not delivered to the residents this morning. everything happening in this time period was whether or not there would be an impact on the campaign and trump wanted to know how it was playing. i don't want to speculate. he would act me how it was playing, how it felt. again, he wanted to make sure the newspapers were not delivered to the residents. i'm not going to ask you about any personal relationship, obviously, that you had with melania trump or any personal

conversations, private conversations you had with her, but i just want to get your reaction when you hear that, and you know it's being read in open court or said in open court by hope hicks. >> again, it's anxiety inducing. you know, i worked for mrs. trump. i had moved from the west wing to the east wing when the stormy daniels and karen mcdougal news, when it hit when we were in the white house. i did have a lot of the personal conversations with melania. to see that he didn't want to have the newspapers delivered to the residents, it made me smile. it sound like something he would think of. melania watches the news like crazy. she keeps track of everything. she's on her phone all the time. she never read hard newspapers like he did. that made me kind of smile that that was one of his, you know, i don't know ways to hide it from

her. it was never going to happen. >> it sound like we all know how much donald trump follows the news, right, and it's clear just if you follow him in any way, he seems to know everything that everyone says about him at all times, but i think melania trump, the idea that someone who's her husband thought that something could be hidden to her is almost, i don't want to say laughable on its face but makes no sense. >> yeah, it's silly. it makes me smile. she consumes media just as much as him. he likes to have the newspapers in his hands. every morning, he had "the new york times," "wall street journal," et cetera. she not so much, but she did follow social media like crazy, and you know, all networks and the cable channels. there would be no hiding it from her at all. >> even, adam, if that is true, and there's no reason to dispute the fact that he wanted to make sure the newspapers were not delivered to the residences that

morning. that doesn't change any of the testimony that would point to that his main concern was the campaign? >> it wouldn't have. part of what's happening here is they're all leading up to michael cohen. and they know this is not a shining star of a witness. they know he's going to be a difficult witness with a suitcase full of baggage, and so they're painting this picture of everybody is problematic. everybody is got these difficulties around them from affairs, from lying, it all pieces together for the prosecution to get to the prosecution to the point of being able to say to the jury, to plant in the jury's mind, yeah, he probably did it. he's one of the difficult people around this courtroom. >> they are moving in testimony to the time that donald trump has been elected president, and

hope hicks is moving from the campaign to become a trusted aide who had an office close to his in the west wing, about when she joined the trump administration. she says january 20th, 2017. she was there until april 1st, 2018, she left. people say it's like he lost one of his arms, that's how close they were. then she says she came back in march of 2020. left again in 2021. she was the vice president of communications for fox corporation. and her role, director of strategic communications, working closely with the press team on events, media opportunities for donald trump, and then she gets asked a very pointed question, did you speak regularly with mr. trump? yes, eventually i became the communications director. when i first started, my office was in the outer oval office.

the reception area had two desks for assistants and a small vestibule, coffee station, a very small space. madeline wester hawes sat at the small desk. she was an executive assistant, and looked after mr. trump's needs, kept his call logs, messages and correspondence. vaughn, this paints a picture for anybody who has been around the oval office. it's so much smaller. the white house in general but the oval office and the west wing in particular than most people imagine it might be from watching television and the movies. these were the people in close physical contact to the president of the united states, donald trump, whenever he was in the oval office. hope hicks and someone we expect to testify, madeline westerhout, tell us about her and why she's important in this story. >> reporter: madeleine westerhout was somebody who was

brought forward to donald trump by reince priebus who served as his right-hand man before joining the transition effort and serving in the capacity of executive assistant there. this gets at the heart of ultimately the reimbursement process. in 2017, donald trump signed nine checks to michael cohen that were reimbursing him allegedly for the payments to stormy daniels, and hope hicks for the jury is introducing who westerhout is and her credibility as a potential witness and also the role she played in the west wing and the way in which she kept a catalog of not only his contacts but also his interactions with individuals that came into the oval office, and also the extent to which she may have been the one who would have been tracking, for example, michael

cohen's early february 2017 meeting in the oval office with donald trump where they allegedly, according to michael cohen, talked about reimbursement, but then also ultimately the bringing of the checks to donald trump to formally sign the invoices that came to his desk there. and so hope hicks is able to provide some credibility ahead of westerhout here, but also in her capacity there while serving not only in the strategic, but the coms director in 2017, and in january when the story dropped outlining the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels. this is the questions she has not publicly answered. when she did speak with congressional investigators previously, hope hicks said through white house counsel that she could not speak because it was white house counsel that urged her not to.

all but claiming executive privilege, which the courts have rebuked and taken away from, you know, individuals now that donald trump is no longer in the white house. so this could be revealing testimony here over the course of the next hour about her actual capacity inside of the white house and the adviser role of donald trump. >> speaking about connecting the dots and bringing the people together. madeleine westerhout who would be able to testify to trump's receipt and signing of checks to michael cohen. >> this is exactly what you want. you want someone who's going to line up the story and krob -- corroborate. one of the things that does, to the point about many witnesses having problems and credibility issues is your case doesn't become reliant on one particular person. even if you don't like or believe michael cohen, even if you don't necessarily like david

pecker or hope hicks, regardless of why you would or would not, the fact is it can't necessarily be that all of these people along with these documents are lying. once all of these stories align, and then you add the documents for corroboration, it becomes undisputable, and you get toward the threshold ofl beyond a reasonable doubt. they're going to be the ones who on summation create the dots and connections the prosecution is going to use to get to where they want to go. next week, when we see documents entered, which is the way i suspect we're going, you have to remember that the testimony that's going to be what draws them together, the stuff we heard this week, and you have to hear the arguments, that create the glue is and sinner see for the -- synergy. >> when you look at the description hope hicks gives of

where she was. the question was did you speak regularly with mr. trumplt she gives really the jury kind of a view that sets up potentially in their minds an understanding of why she was around so much, why she saw and heard so much, and the importance, too, of madeleine westerhout, potentially still to come, you spent a lot of time there, i'll let you as someone much more expert than me sort of emphasize that space, the closeness of it, and what it potentially means for access if you're someone who's going to be speaking and interacting with the president every single day. >> as you well know and your viewers know, the proximity to power talks about your importance, right, the inner oval of the value office, you know, to get total press secretary, you have to take probably 30 steps.

to get to the chief of staff's office, you got to take 30 steps, the senior advisers office, the inner oval is -- they're right there. you know, it's just a matter of a few feet. but i think most importantly, too, those are the people that control the access of who gets in and who gets out. they're recording who gets in and who gets out for presidential records. how long was robert in there to talk to president obama for this story today. that stuff is all recorded. so, again, you can't really -- there's nobody physically closer to the president as they're in the oval office than that group of people. >> so let me ask you, stephanie grisham because i have already asked you about hope hicks, what about westerhout and her relationship with trump? >> so she joined the campaign a little bit later on, as you talked about reince priebus from the rnc brought her on. she was very loyal to trump, and sometimes it was a frustration

to even some of us senior aides because getting in to see him sometimes was difficult. she was a true gate keeper. she was really quite skilled at her job. she did keep track of who was in there and for how long, not only for presidential records but she kept it written down. she was very on top of things, and i will say, again, you know, that office that hope was talking about was literally 10 feet away from madeline. and trump would yell from his dining room office for hope to come and do things. it's exactly right how close they were, and how he could just audibly yell for them. she was very loyal to him. she wrote a book when she left but it was very favorable to him. but, again very intelligent young woman, and i know she took a lot of notes. she i'm sure has a lot committed to memory. >> we have moved on in the testimony to january 12th, 2018.

and hope hicks says i can't remember exactly but someone got a press inquiry about stormy daniels who was a footnote in a november 4th story from the previous year, and the report was that she, in fact, had received a payment of $130,000. she doesn't remember if she spoke to michael cohen at that time, right then, but she says she did in the after math. i remember saying this wasn't true, and that he had a statement from stormy personally that it didn't happen, and we had documentation, proof that no payment had been made. and michael cohen discussed with donald trump how to respond to the story, and then hope hicks, charles, talks about michael cohen's reaction to this. he had a statement from stormy daniels, personally or from her attorney that no relationship had transpired. we talked about this, and the key part of that being the word relationship. >> right. >> she joked about it that night

on late night tv, never directly answering the question. later, her attorney will say, well, they didn't have a relationship. this was a single sexual encounter, yes, she may have signed a document, but that document was very carefully worded. >> it was. and it's interesting, i've looked at that over and over again because of the semantics of it. but the truth is that document and that entire conversation about the semantics of a relationship, for example, they only become as valuable or important as the prosecution seeks to make them. although the defense will try and point out these inconsistencies. ultimately, the crime donald trump is charged for does not rise or fall on whether he actually had a relationship or sex with stormy daniels. neither of those things are what he's charged with, and so the importance of this, i think, really will depend on how the

lawyers argue them. i think if i'm the prosecution in this case, i'm doing my best to sort of not necessarily have this become a larger issue than i need it to be. but if i'm the defense. i'm doing everything that i can to point out the inconsistencies and look to make someone, anyone, everyone, a liar. >> adam, in your experience, can jurors differentiate between inconsistencies, which means things that people maybe do that aren't consequential and things that are inconsistencies that they view as consequential? >> i think they can, juries are very sophisticated, they kind of get it. they put together 12 people in a room and let them talk about it, i think they realize, and i think they realize these distinctions. here, hope hicks is maybe one of the most responsible, respectable witnesses we have seen so far. the other major witnesses have been more salacious.

i think they'll understand what's happening here from the boss that she's taking direction from where the statements are coming from in her communications and text messages. >> then hope hicks is asked about the conversation that was had. it was the day after michael told "the new york times" he made a payment without trump's knowledge, and trump said he spoke to michael and michael had paid this woman to protect him from a false allegation, and michael had done it to protect him, had told him nothing about it. i had known cohen for three and a half years. michael felt like it was his job to protect him. she's saying, essentially there, potentially that this was something that michael cohen wanted to do for donald trump. >> that's extremely helpful to the defense. it's what they want. it's the theme they would love to put out there, and understand

that if you're his defense team, you may not necessarily have one central theme. you're looking for as many plausible defenses that you can throw to a jury. >> i have to interrupt. >> is it getting better? >> hope hicks asked whether that would be out of character for michael, meaning, hicks saying, michael felt like it was his job to protect him. that would be out of character for michael, she said. i don't know michael to be an especially charitable person. >> this is exactly what you want. >> nobody has taken more arrows than michael cohen so far. >> for a witness like hope hicks who doesn't come across as someone who has an ax to grind or is particularly hostile, she's not keith davidson on the stand where there's this contentious back and forth, at least not so far. that type of testimony doesn't

help michael cohen who's already a witness who's coming in to this case under a lot of scrutiny. so this is what, if you're donald trump's defense team, you like to hear, something you can work with on cross, and later on discrediting the theory that's going to be advanced by the prosecution, once we get to summation and closing arguments. >> another really informative day on the stand, and one in which all of us are learning what it is to construct a case. vaughn hillyard, robert gibbs, stephanie gresham, adam pollock, charles coleman, i cannot imagine a better group of folks i have had this journey with. that's going to do it for us this hour. joining us for "chris jansing reports" every weekday on msnbc. our coverage continues with "katy tur reports" right