♪♪ good friday morning, it is 10:00 eastern. i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york. we begin with breaking news in a courtroom in manhattan where witness testimony has just resumed in donald trump's hush money trial, and back on the stand is the forensic specialist from the manhattan d.a.'s office who inspected data from michael cohen's phone including text messages and secret recordings. nbc's vaughn hillyard is standing by for us outside the courthouse. also with us former u.s. attorney, former state court judge carol lam, and state attorney for palm beach county, florida, dave aronberg. vaughn, start us off here. the judge started everything by pushing back on some of trump's comments yesterday about his potential testimony in this case. what can you tell us? >> reporter: right. trump has repeatedly bemoaned the fact that this gag order has been placed on him preventing him from speaking about witnesses as this pertains to

this criminal proceeding, but also the jury. but donald trump notably when he walked out of the court yesterday took another step in what he claimed the gag order prevented him from doing. take a listen. >> i'm not allowed to testify because this judge, he's totally conflicted, has me under an unconstitutional gag order. nobody's ever had that before, and we don't like it, and it's not fair. >> does the gag order stop you from snefg. >> testifying? >> the gag order is not for testifying. the gag order stops me from talking about people and responding when they say things about me. we have people saying things about me and i'm not allowed to respond. >> reporter: donald trump has repeatedly suggested that he wanted to testify in this criminal trial in defense of himself. and there you saw him yesterday leaving the courthouse claiming that the gag order prevented him from doing so, which led judge merchan immediately upon taking

the bench this morning with donald trump there seated making it clear that the gag order did not prevent donald trump from testifying, that the gag order only explicitly prevented him from speaking about these witnesses and about the jury, outside of this courtroom, which would put the ball back in donald trump's corner to testify if he so desires to do so. >> and we'll talk more about what's happening with this current witness, but before we do that, let me bring it to our lawyers here on set with me. carol, when you hear this sort of mixed messaging coming from trump over potential testimony, the judge actually then addressing it in the courtroom, what do you make of it? >> it's not entirely clear whether trump just misspoke and he was talking about how he can't talk to the press about this trial or whether he's saying that he actually can't testify in his own defense, but the reason judge merchan came out so strongly this morning was because it is his responsibility to make sure that this trial

proceeds in accordance with all the laws and judges are extremely protective of a defendant's right to defend himself fully, and that means taking the witness stand if they want to, so any suggestion by the trump side or by donald trump himself that he is not being permitted to testify is something that the judge is going to react very strongly to. >> even before this trial got underway, there was that hearing about what trump could be asked about if he were to take the stand, and there are a host of issues, dave, that he could be questioned about. so the question today is does he want to testify? >> no way. and i think carol's great, but i think she's giving donald trump too much credit because i think trump was lying there. i think he is trying to find a way out. he wants to tell his supporters that i want to testify but this judge is forcing me not to. so this is part of grievance because nothing fuels maga like grievance. the other thing is that his

lawyer, not in that clip, in a different clip, todd blanche seemed to nod in agreement with trump. that's why i was wondering if judge merchan is going to call him up and say are you in agreement with trump that the gag order prevents him from testifying? because let me disabuse both of you of that notion, a judge cannot lie about the court outside of the courthouse. >> so vaughn, talk to us about this other issue that came up even before the witness testimony happened today where they're discussing who could take the stand next and the defense pushing back on potential evidence that would be submitted during that testimony. explain. >> reporter: right. there's a clue as to who this next marquee witness could be, and that was because there was deliberation before the jury came in over evidence that could be brought forward before the jury, and, again, it had to do with the access hollywood tape,

and now the prosecution wanted to bring forward the photo as well as what the initial front page of "the washington post" online was on the day that the access hollywood story dropped in "the washington post." and you'll recall that judge merchan had previously ruled that the video would not be admissible to be played before the jury and also doubled down by saying that the photo that was showing donald trump with the woman who he was talking about and billy bush is not entered into the record. the reason why this let us potentially know who the next witness could be is because todd blanche, donald trump's attorney pushed back against allowing this to be admissible saying he anticipated a witness being brought to the stand later today who would be discussing the access hollywood tape. of course hope hicks was at the pivotal point of these deliberations in early october when that story dropped.

she was working as press secretary at the time, and we know that she was involved in conversations at least at the bare minimum connecting donald trump and michael cohen in the weeks after about the potential payments to stormy daniels. we could very well see hope hicks potentially based off of todd blanche's own foreshadowing take the stand in a matter of minutes or hours, ana. >> okay, and so dave, what do you i guess think about how the defense is trying to get out in front of this, and do you think that the judge is going to accept what they're asking for? >> well, first off, i think hope hicks will be a powerful witness. she has no axe to grind. she's in trump's inner circle, and she's cooperating with the prosecution. so she's going to provide much-needed corroboration for michael cohen. as far as the authentication of records, cell phone videos, normally that's done via stiplakes. stipulation. the fact that this guy doug daus

is on the stand is a bit bizarre. this is the trump team doing what the client wants, try and poke holes in the equivalent of the deep state, saying there are doctored texts. this is normally stipulated to. it's supposed to be boring testimony, not to be grilled on cross examination. >> right, and we'll talk about doug daus and his testimony in just a second, but just the strategy, carol, that they're trying to prevent some of this evidence had from being entered into evidence, right? and they're questioning the authenticity of it, whether it had been manipulated. i mean, even this morning we had trump's lawyers arguing about trump's truth social posts being submitted as evidence saying they shouldn't be admitted as evidence, that they're pure hearsay and without a proper foundation. i mean, these are his own words on his own social media platform. >> yeah, what the defense is doing here is they're taking shots wherever they can. they're going to throw everything up against the wall

and hope something sticks with some juror. in today's world, especially now we see all this debate about ai and what can be done with videos and social media, people representing things that are not actually true. the defense as dave rightly pointed out. these used to be pieces of evidence that would just come through stipulation of both parties. those are our bank records, yes, that is a video of the defendant. there was no issue there, but today even if there is no issue, they're going to try to make an issue out of it, and they're making the prosecution run through all the paces, putting on all the foundational witnesses to talk about essentially the chain of custody that they know why these documents and videos and photos are true and correct, very tedious testimony, but they're hoping there's some juror in that jury room who's going to say, wait, these could be faked. how do we know? the prosecution didn't really

prove that it wasn't faked, and that is going to be part of their defense. it's poking holes at the government's prosecution. >> and so, vaughn, the witness who started testimony yesterday, doug daus, he's this forensic data analyst, he's back on the stand this morning and he's facing cross examination, what are we hearing? >> reporter: right, and i think it's important to emphasize yet again that this cross examination is taking place with the jury sitting there, and they are questioning the authenticity of some of these recordings. number one suggesting that in january of 2018 when the manhattan district attorney's office first acquired the two cell phones of michael cohen that there was four days between the point that it went from the hands of one of their investigators who was later suspended and left the d.a.'s office because of his cozy relationship with michael cohen to the point that it got to the forensic analyst, four days.

so asking this forensic analyst from the d.a.'s office, the defense team for donald trump is suggesting, you know, potentially data could have been tampered over those four days because it was not secured. the data analyst saying that is correct. the second line of inquiry currently taking place with data analysts is over that september 2016 recorded conversation between michael cohen and donald trump regarding that $150,000 payment to karen mcdougal, and very explicitly, the team for donald trump is asking, quote, i listened to -- the file cuts off mid-conversation to which daus, the forensic analyst said towards the end i listened to the whole thing, and it cuts off during the conversation. to which bove responded, you don't know how long the conversation is. daus, the forensic analyst responds, no. which gets at the heart of the question what did the rest of that conversation look like and did michael cohen intentionally only provide half of the

potential conversation, and then, again, with the jury sitting there could leave doubts in their head about whether michael cohen recorded the entire truth. >> they're trying to soften up michael cohen. they know he's going to be a key witness. they're trying to prebut him to say, look, you can't trust this guy. that's been the theme of their case while the prosecution is doing the opposite with the corroboration. carol and i can agree on the fact that normally these witnesses don't get grilled on cross examination. you stipulate, you admit it, and then you argue the evidence when it comes out, but not the person who's a custodian or a data expert who just extracts it. they are going to try to poke holes whenever they can. it has a double benefit for trump in that it helps delay this matter. you know that's trump's m.o., delay, delay, delay. >> it also keeps them off the campaign trail, and he's complaining about being in court, so this is his own lawyer, his legal team that is making these proceedings go longer by going forward with this line of questioning to an

expert like doug daus. help us understand the utility of this kind of expert in the prosecution's presentation here, carol, because his testimony pretty dry, it's just saying they're verifying the authenticity of them and sort of the chain of custody, right? >> look, it's a double edged sword for the defense to challenge it to the extent that they are because what it permits the prosecution to do is actually show the jury that, yeah, we do have our act together. we have the witnesses. if you want to give us a hard time and make us put them all on the stand, we'll do it, and you'll see that we act as a professional office and we have people who document things correctly, it can make the office look more professional. the risk, of course, is that there is a slip somewhere or something that they can't quite prove up and then the defense will try to make hay of that. so this is what the prosecution has to do if the defense is not

going to agree or stipulate as dave notes to the admission of that evidence. you can't just stick documents or photos or videotapes in without some sort of foundation, some sort of support for why those are authentic. >> carol, dave, vaughn, everybody please stick around, and at home, please stay with us. we're going to continue to follow witness testimony this morning. we'll bring you all the big moments, the twists that are coming from the courtroom. plus, he hasn't taken the stand yet but has gotten a lot of attention already. michael cohen's credibility taking big hits from fellow prosecution witnesses. what's the impact? chblt also ahead, another anticipated witness that some legal analysts say could be the most damaging to trump because hope hicks witnessed just about everything. we're back in 60 seconds. erythig we're back in 60 seconds nothing dims my light like a migraine.to trum witnessed just about everything. we're back in 60 seconds. most d hope hicks witnessed just about everything. we're back in 60 seconds. t everything we're back in 60 seconds preven,

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he's more to us than just a boss. he's a mentor. he's a sage. he's like family. >> and there was michael cohen describing his former boss in 2016 before donald trump won the presidency. now, more than seven years later, the now deteriorated relationship between the former president and his former fixer is being laid bare in court, including explosive testimony and recordings from the time it began to unravel when an angry cohen learned he would not be going to the white house. nbc's vaughn hillyard is back with us from the courthouse, and also joining us now former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst paul butler. vaughn, walk us through that explosive testimony about this phone call and how it went over in court? >> reporter: right, this was the prosecution's witness, keith davidson working as the attorney for stormy daniels, somebody who is intimately voefd with the negotiations with michael cohen,

and clearly, for the jury, they were able to hear that keith davidson was somebody who had a long-standing, albeit difficult relationship with michael cohen. and in a particular phone call in the aftermath of the 2016 election before donald trump was formally sworn in and while michael cohen was allegedly still waiting for that $130,000 reimbursement from donald trump, he also opened up to keith davidson, which davidson told the jury, told the prosecution about that phone call. and just take a look at this transcript here. this is what he said that cohen told him on the phone, quote, jesus christ, can you effing believe i'm not going to washington after everything i've done for that effing guy. i can't believe i'm not going to washington. i've saved that guy's so many times you don't even know. that effing guy's not even paid the $130,000 back. >> this hits at the heart of potentially -- this was during cross examination here that for

the defense here laying out that michael cohen simply sought revenge here at some point in and that he was frustrated and, again, with keith davidson you've got to note the point that while he said he always believed donald trump was the one who was ultimately signing off on the payment to stormy daniels, at the same time, he never explicitly had a phone conversation or even met with donald trump so he couldn't say definitively he knew that for sure. >> this explosive call came out during the prosecution's questioning of davidson. why do you think they wanted the jury to hear that? could it hurt their case if it looks like cohen has an axe to grind? >> it could, so they want the jury to hear it from the prosecution first, ana. in the opening statement michael cohen was called a liar and a convicted criminal by the prosecution. and that was just the first of

what we see to be many preemptive strikes, so much of what michael cohen ultimately tells the jury has already been corroborated by david pecker and by keith davidson. it will also be corroborated by hope hicks. so the prosecution's goal is to make michael cohen the most anti-climatic star witness of all time. they want all of his testimony to sound familiar by the time the jury hears it. >> you're right, paul, the prosecution has acknowledged cohen's, quote, baggage, the questions about his credibility. here's what the jury has heard so far from witnesses about cohen, that he's a jerk, sort of a pants on fire kind of guy. i didn't particularly like dealing with him said one witness. highly excitable, talking out of two ears, created the drama. do you think the prosecution was expecting all of that about their star witness?

>> ana, in terms of the kinds of cases that district attorneys bring, homicides, rape, assault, the witnesses are often people who are down and dirty. they know about what happened because they were participating in it. in a case like this, i think alvin bragg is looking at michael cohen and saying, what, this guy's got a couple of federal convictions for white collar crimes, i've got this. i can deal with this. he's not a murderer who i have to rehabilitate in front of a jury. and so the way that prosecutors rehabilitate witnesses with baggage like michael cohen is with mad receipts. so again, not just with testimony from other witnesses like pecker and hope hicks but receipts, telephone records, text messages, logs. the false business records that are the subject of this criminal

case. again, by the time michael cohen finally takes the stand, it's not going to be about the jury thinking he's a nice guy. they will understand nobody thinks michael cohen is a nice guy. the question is whether he's a credible witness in this cases, and i think the jury is likely to find that he is. >> both the prosecution and the defense have ought to get ahead of cohen's testimony. we heard from trump's lawyers in their opening statement calling him a criminal, a liar, obsessed with getting trump. do you think they've been effective in cross examination at painting cohen as not only a man with an axe to grind, but also someone acting on his own when it comes to these hush money payments? >> i don't think so, ana. this is why. the jury will be instructed at the end that when they evaluate their evidence, they should use their common sense, and the prosecution will say in its closing, use your common sense to think about whether michael

cohen knowing everything he does about donald trump would on his own concoct this scheme to falsify business records and take out a mortgage, a second mortgage on his home to pay off stormy daniels, if michael cohen wasn't darn sure he was going to be reimbursed by donald trump. and the prosecution will say people of the jury, you know that michael cohen did this on the orders of donald trump because you've heard it from several witnesses, and you've seen lots of documents that support that claim. >> paul butler, vaughn hillyard, thank you both. when we come back, other legal analysts will join us to dive into more of this morning's witness testimony in the courtroom. stay right there. on personalizd jewelry, original decor - and other things moms actually love. when you need a gift as unique as she is...

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facing questions on redirect about michael cohen's cell phone and laptop. joining us from the courthouse is yasmin vossoughian and back with us carol lam and dave aronberg. there was a lot of cross examination involving the metadata and back and forth on that. how are the jurors reacting to this testimony? >> reporter: yeah, let me give you some color from inside the courtroom that we're getting in on this document that we've all been watching pretty intently here. so as bove, one of the attorneys for the former president is continuing to press daus over the handling of data on cohen's devices, trump actually is peering around at his attorney, looking out of the corner of his eye along with jurors as well that are looking around the courtroom throughout the testimony of daus and the cross examination with daus and his kind of clipped answers, right? he's answering certain questions and then being clipped off by bove during his testimony.

i want to kind of walk you through some of what we're hearing because we know the intention here, right, of the former president's attorneys to take away the credibility of michael cohen, and a star witness of michael cohen, a potential star witness like stormy daniels as well, and he's doing this in this cross examination with daus as well. let me walk you through one exchange that really speaks to what i'm getting at here, ana. through no fault of your own, you took the phone in 2023, and you have extensive training, and you were asked the things that happened subsequent to this phone being powered on and off. the factory reset, the fbi search synced multiple times, that presents real challenges. and daus says it would have to be taken into account. and then this is the important part, ana, bove says so we are just going to have to take michael cohen's word for it, and daus says, yes. right? so once again, you have the defense here chipping away at the credibility of michael

cohen, wanting one juror and/or two jurors to say, wait a minute, these text messages, this email, this stuff taken from michael cohen's laptops, phones, was it doctors, and by the way, are we going to believe michael cohen when he takes the stand? >> interesting. thank you, yasmin. stand by and stay with us. carol, your thoughts? >> well, as we discussed earlier, this is an attempt by the defense to poke holes wherever they can, but from their point of view, if they can get one juror as yasmin was pointing out, if they can get one juror to say i don't trust michael cohen, and i don't know what he doctored in all of these text messages or emails, and they can get one juror to dismiss all of the documentary evidence that emanated from michael cohen's emails and his text messages, that's a win for them. right? because they've now cast a

shadow of problems over all of this corroborating information that the prosecution says they have for michael cohen's testimony. so that's their approach here. that's their game, and they're going to take it to the bitter end. >> and dave, we've talked about how it's important for the district attorney's office not to just rely on michael cohen's testimony and the fact is they have this paper trails, they have all the evidence that is the corroborating evidence so you don't have to take michael cohen's word for it. here it looks like the defense is suggesting to the jurors, even with this evidence, don't believe your own eyes. don't believe your own ears. michael cohen might have manipulated it. >> that's their last remaining defense because their main defenses have been debunked by the witnesses, by davidson, by david pecker that donald trump was unaware of any of this stuff. well, pecker showed, no, you were part of this whole thing or that this was about protecting melania, not a campaign finance violation. no, melania was never mentioned.

you knew this was about protecting you from the embarrassment of this information hurting your campaign. last remaining defense is michael cohen's a liar and if you don't believe michael cohen, the whole case falls apart. don't even think about corroboration, just focus on michael cohen, and that's what they're going to do. that's why the prosecution is not going to end with michael cohen. he's a controversial witness. he has had prior felonies. he perjured himself previously to lie to protect donald trump. they want to protect michael cohen by creating this firewall, and they're doing that, but the defense is trying to breakthrough that firewall here. >> so now there's redirect, so i'm curious, yasmin, how the prosecution is trying to sort of tie a bow on this testimony of doug daus. >>. >> i think they're doing exactly what we expect them to do, asking this direct question from conroy, did you see any evidence of tampering or manipulation of data, rewhat is in evidence as people's exhibit 246, and daus

said i did not, right? i think we have to also reiterate and keep in mindhere, and i believe carol talked about this at the top of the show, most time with these expert witnesses, ana, there is not even cross examination. they are called by the d.a.'s office typically in a situation like this. they offer their testimony, and they leave the stand. however, we have had cross examination. we have had redirect now as well, and it speaks to kind of how document heavy, how technology heavy this entire case is and how much the prosecution is building their evidence and their case on text messages, on emails, on things taken from michael cohen's computer and wanting to take the spotlight off of problematic witnesses like michael cohen and possibly stormy daniels. >> are and we're starring to see a little bit of a strategy in terms of how the d.a.'s office is calling certain witnesses in the order that they're going. they have these explosive witnesses, like, you know, david

pecker and then the people like keith davidson, kind of smattered between these others who are more technical witness testimony, and so let's talk about what happened right before daus because keith davidson wrapped up his testimony yesterday afternoon. he's the former lawyer for karen mcdougal and stormy daniels. he faced some tough cross examination, right? what were the big takeaways? >> they tried to basically paint him as a shady character, right? the underbelly of celebrity culture, kind of ambulance chaser and celebrity culture, clients like hulk hogan, going after lindsay lohan when she was in rehab. they wanted to paint the picture that this was a guy who cannot be trusted, right? it goes back to the credibility issue we have been talking about all day and really throughout this entire trial and what the defense is trying to say here, which is you bring all of these problematic witnesses up here. these guys that are chasing the celebrity culture, that are taking advantage of situations, davidson being one of them.

and you're putting them forward as if they're credible witnesses and wanting one juror to say, well, wait a minute, do i actually believe what davidson is actually saying. there was this incredible moment, though, ana, that i have to repeat from yesterday, this exchange between davidson and howard on election night, and dylan howard, that is obviously the head of the "national enquirer" in which davidson says what did we do, and howard says my god. right? and that was a real moment because it was as if there was an admission that they knew that they were working on behalf of donald trump, that davidson knew that he was working on behalf of donald trump as he alleged in his testimony that michael cohen was working at the direction of donald trump. >> and that exchange that you just mentioned between davidson and howard about election night, that was a key exchange where

what have we done was the text message, and he went on to clarify, davidson said, this was kind of gallows humor. there was an understanding that his t may have affected the outcome of the presidential election. your reaction to that? >> that's what makes this an election interference case. this is really important because if this was just a falsification of business records case, it would just be a misdemeanor. this case would never have been charged. to create a felony, it's got to lead to concealing another crime, a campaign finance crime. that's why it's important for trump to say it was never about the campaign. it was never about influencing the election. it was about protecting my family. even though davidson never interacted directly with trump, those text messages are really powerful evidence. >> yasmin also mentioned how davidson was asked about all sorts of other celebrity deals he had done, carol, with hulk hogan, involving lindsay lohan,

involving tila tequila. why bring up all these other deals that had been part of davidson's resume? >> why indeed? why try to discredit davidson so much? after all, he's the lawyer. i have to say that a lot of lawyers are have sort of taken it on the chin in this proceeding, but look, they had to do this with davidson because he represented stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, and they don't want to have to come down so hard on those women when they take the stand, if they take the stand, which we expect they will. so in a sensuous davidson is the proxy for those women. it's just not going to be a good look if they really try to be rough with the women on the witness stand, but they can be rough with davidson, and i think that's what we're seeing. they're playing the extortion card here. you say tomato, i say tomato, davidson saying it wasn't extortion, these were settlements, civil settlements, and they say, no, it was really extortion, wasn't it?

they don't really want to have to do that with karen mcdougal and stormy daniels, so they're going to do it with davidson. >> i'm being told that daus just finished his testimony. he's left the stand. there was a bench meeting that was called. we'll see what happens next as we keep our eye on this ongoing witness testimony, and we'll be bringing you the biggest highlights. we'll also start looking ahead to other potential witnesses still to come in this case, including one scene as the most potentially devastating to donald trump. could hope hicks provide prosecutors with a treasure-trove of testimony? sur? she runs and plays like a puppy again. his #2s are perfect! he's a brand new dog, all in less than a year. when people switch their dog's food from kibble to the farmer's dog, they often say that it feels like magic. but there's no magic involved. (dog bark) it's simply fresh meat and vegetables, with all the nutrients dogs need— instead of dried pellets. just food made for the health of dogs. delivered in packs portioned for your dog. it's amazing what real food can do.

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identifying public material involving the case including social media posts, saving news articles as well, instagram, twitter, facebook, linkedin, truth social posts as well. so this is once again, as we just had with the last witness as well, daus, which is kind of showing the kind of nuts and bolts, right? the abcs of how they built this case, how they gleaned this information. how they gleaned the evidence. this case was sitting inside the manhattan d.a.'s office for quite some teat. it started with cy vance. mark pomerantz stepped down a month into alvin bragg being head d.a., being at the manhattan d.a.'s office, and so this is really kind of helping build the case allowing the manhattan d.a.'s office to be transparent as to how they built this case and how they were able to glean all of this evidence and information from the former president. >> yasmin, thank you. don't go far. we'll come back.

meanwhile, prosecutors haven't really given direct hints about the order of upcoming witnesses from a potential list that includescdougal, michael cohen others. one who could be key is someone who was in the inner rings of trump's inner circle, in both his campaign and his white house, and that is hope hicks. we'll get to hope hicks in a moment, but let's bring in "new york times" chief white house correspondent peter baker. now, peter, we know the prosecution has entered into evidence nearly two dozen text messages between michael cohen and home hicks, just days before the 2016 election. just how involved was hope hicks during that time? what could she know? >> well, that's what we're going to learn, what her attorney said in 2019 is that she didn't know about the hush money. what we heard since then through fbi affidavits she was involved in phone calls and text messages, a key moment starting

on october 8th of 2000, that was the day after the access hollywood tape came out. there was a phone call between her and michael cohen, the then candidate donald trump joined, which triggered a series of further phone calls. we're going to hear about from her i think is about the context of these payments, what was happening in the campaign at the time that michael cohen was working on keeping these women from telling their stories, and that was that the campaign, of course, was very worried about any further, i don't know, damaging information about donald trump's relationship with women. he had just had that hollywood access tape -- access hollywood tape come out in which he was heard talking about grabbing women by their private parts in a very crude way. it was a damaging moment for him. a lot of people thought it was going to kill his campaign altogether. even the chairman of the national republican committee suggested he drop out. that's the context she's going to provide as well as more information about these specific phone calls. >> and hicks wasn't just close it trump during the campaign.

of course she was in the white house, and in your book you write how she had trump's ear and access to the oval office as white house communications director and she's known for her loyalty. wrote about another aide once expressing concern that trump looked exhausted and hicks promptly corrected her saying, quote, donald trump is never tired, and he is never sick. so tell us a little bit more about the hope hicks, donald trump relationship. just how loyal is she, and where did things leave off after trump's presidency? >> yeah, she's always been seen as a loyalist, obviously, not a kool-aid drinker like some of them, but somebody who has always been very close o'him and defending him and so forth. she left the white house at one point to go ahead and try to move on. she was exhausted and i think demoralized to some extent by some of the brutal inner machinations of that white house. then she came back to work for him again in 2020. she didn't particularly agree with the whole notion that

the -- he was going to try to overturn the election with false claims of fraud. she kind of disappeared from the white house at that point, but she never really turned on him. she never came out and became one of those former aides who denounced him in public the way some of the others had. she simply began to have some distance there. i think she's going to have credibility on the stand. she's hard to portray by the defense as a disgruntled former employee. she's not a convicted perjurer like michael cohen. she's not someone involved in these sort of hollywood underbelly of hollywood stuff like keith davidson. she's somebody who's going to be hard for the defense to attack in terms of her credibility. >> all right, peter baker, thank you so much for providing that insight. when we come back, we'll go back out live to the courthouse in manhattan. for the latest from this morning's witness testimony, stay with us. inois. i'm not an actor. i'm just a regular person. some people say, "why should i take prevagen? i don't have a problem with my memory." memory loss is, is not something that occurs overnight.

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for instance, how do you find a verified account. she walks through obviously how twitter has now changed hands, how you can purchase now that blue check mark instead of being officially verified, and this is all an effort, ana, as i mentioned a little bill earlier to kind of build on all of the evidence that has been submitted by the prosecution specifically when it comes to so many of the former president's social media posts, not only on twitter way back when but truth social even know. i'll bring up an example if i can for a moment. it was earlier this morning before we even started the trial once again with daus on the stand, they brought up, and i will say todd blanche brought up the fact he didn't want admitted into evidence one of the former president's truth social posts saying if you go after me, i'm coming after you. this is kind of part of the archives of evidence that r going to be submitted by the prosecution. todd blanche kind of pushing back on that, not wanting that to be admitted as evidence, and it's part of why someone like

this is so integral to the prosecution for having her on the stand to walk through how it is hay find this evidence and the importance of building their case here, ana. >> okay, and they just went into morning recess we're learning, and so let me ask dave as we now are on to the eighth witness in this trial do these people, does the order that the prosecution has been calling them make sense to you? >> yes, you want to start off with a bang, they did with david pecker. you want to end with a strong finish to give something for the jurors to remember. in between you want to put on the paralegal, that mr. daus who are more nuts and bolts. normally, as carol knows, you wouldn't even put the witness on because you would just stipulate to having them in, and let them -- let the parties then debate whether or not from a substantive standpoint it should be allowed. for example, is this message about donald trump saying i'm going to go after you, is that too prejudicial to come in. that's not what this witness is

about. this is how we found it, this is awe then kat authenticated. in the process delay the case. >> what do you think, carol, as far as who might come next? maybe not one of these types of technical witnesses, but who would you expect to be kind of the next big name? >> that's a tough question. as we know, the prosecution's holding it pretty close to the vest about who they're going to call next because they're unhappy with donald trump the way he's been commenting about the trial going on. there are signs that hope hicks could be next. hard to say. they need to sort of put hope hicks and michael cohen sort of as dave was saying in the middle of this trial and maybe a little bit towards the end. they probably don't want to necessarily end with those witnesses don't know what's going to happen entirely on cross examination. so, and, again, there is so much documentary evidence here, they're trying to interweave these kind of less exciting witnesses with the more exciting

witnesses to sort of give the jury some variability in the trial. >> and one of those sort of evidence trails that we have been following were these text messages that were admitted as evidence yesterday, this back and forth between michael cohen and hope hicks and text message form, that happened days before the election, on november 4th, where there is one text where hope hicks says call me, or michael cohen says to hope hicks, call me, there is another one where she sends a link to "the wall street journal" article, and involving the karen mcdougal story and another one where she is asking michael cohen for david pecker's phone number on november 5th. what do you think the prosecution is going to do with this, dave? >> it is donald trump's defense he was not part of this. this was michael cohen taking out a second loan on his home, it pay stormy daniels $130,000 and kept his boss out of it. it is impossible to believe, especially when you see the paper trail between him and hope hicks. is hope hicks also going rogue?

no, she's doing it obviously on behalf of her boss, who she is very loyal to and that's another reason why her testimony is so important. >> okay, thank you so much. carol lam and dave aronberg and yasmine vossoughian. when we come back, new nbc news reporting about the, quote, quiet such for a trump running mate. what is happening behind the scenes while he sits in court. e enes while he sits in court. e] [car door shuts] [paparazzi cameras] introducing, ned's plaque psoriasis. ned, ned, who are you wearing? he thinks his flaky red patches are all people see. otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. ned? otezla can help you get clearer skin, and reduce itching and flaking. with no routine blood tests required. doctors have been prescribing otezla for over a decade. otezla is also approved to treat psoriatic arthritis. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it. serious allergic reactions can happen. otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting.

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welcome back. right now, donald trump's hush money trial is in a brief morning recess before witness testimony set to resume. and we're learning more about his plans when he's out of court this weekend at a major donor retreat with a long list of potential vice presidential picks. let's get right to nbc news senior national politics reporter jonathan alan. jonathan, you have more on this quiet search for a vp that is unfolding while trump's in court. what can you tell us? >> there is a huge republican national committee donor retreat in palm beach this weekend.

president trump is expected to be at. in addition to that, they're going to bring in donors from across the country. obviously he's been behind in fund-raising, partially because joe biden's done such a good job of fund-raising and partially because donald trump has been diverting a lot of his resources to defending himself legally. so this is an opportunity for them to try to cash in for him to try to cash in as the summer months start to come in. >> so my understanding is he obvious has been in the courtroom, focusing on what is happening in front of him. what is happening behind the scenes when it comes to the search for a vice president and his involvement of aides and other campaign staff. >> what we have been hering for a long time now is that donald trump has done what he always does, to pull the people around him about what they think about various possible candidates, very tightly held source process right now, donald trump himself obviously is the one who makes that decision in the end, we think his senior adviser, de facto campaign chief, susie

wiles, is probably wired into that process. we're starting to hear names come out of it. the list has been more than a dozen people, but we're starting to get to hear some of the names, some of the folks will be at this donor retreat this weekend, whether you're talking about marco rubio, the senator from florida, tim scott, the senator from south carolina, south dakota governor kristi noem, famous most recently for shooting her dog, and north dakota governor doug burgum among others. >> meantime, inside the court, where trump is right now, we have new reporting about how he's been complaining about his lack of visible support inside and outside the courtroom. and it appears his complaints did work, because we saw eric trump, ken paxton, a few aides in court earlier this week, boris epshteyn was with him, i understand. what is the word from the trump world about the lack of physical support inside the courtroom? >> there is always a desire to have more people supporting him. he loves to have people stand

around him and tell him how great he is, we see that during his campaign stops, on election nights during the primary season, you know, where he basically got other people to tell him how much they loved him, former rivals. so, there is never any harm to somebody who wants to win favor with him in showing support. clearly that message was received in terms of who you're seeing in court with him this week, the campaign is reluctant to say anything about that. but it is evident from what you said. it is visible support that he's getting. susie wiles, who i mentioned a moment ago, was one of the people in court, the top aide to him right now. >> boris epshteyn just approached trump during the break at the bench, at the defense table and they're visiting apparently. do you know why more family hasn't been in court with trump? >> i mean, it is a great question. certainly we have not seen melania trump much on the campaign trail or in support of donald trump. we keep hearing from campaign

officials that we're going to see her more on the campaign trail, but she's been absent. we know that jared kushner and ivanka trump have kept their distance from this campaign, that doesn't mean they don't support donald trump, but they are trying to kind of live their own lives. you saw eric trump did actually come to court, lara trump is running the rnc right now, co-running the rnc right now. might be best for her to stay away from the trial and raise money for him in terms of time and i don't have a good answer on donald trump jr. but there are a lot of family members and we have only seen eric trump in court. >> on one day that we have been able to at least spot him. thank you so much, jonathan alan. you have such great reporting online and on air, and i appreciate it. that's going to do it for us today. have a great weekend. i hope you'll comeback on monday, i'll be here, same time, same place. you can catch our show around the clock on youtube and on other platforms. i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york. jose diaz-balart picks up our coverage right now.