thank you for getting up "way too early" with us on this friday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. we are not an authoritarian nation where we silence people or squash dissent. the american people are heard. in fact, peaceful protest is the best tradition of how america responds to consequential issues. but, but neither are we a lawless country. we are a civil society. order must prevail. >> that's president joe biden for the first time publicly addressing the protests on campuses across the country. we'll have more of his comments and bring you the very latest on the demonstrations. plus, we're still six months away from the presidential election, but donald trump is already suggesting that he will not accept the results if he loses. we'll bring you that. and president biden's response. and we'll have joe's

conversation with jerry seinfeld and the cast of his netflix comedy, "unfrosted," a movie about the creation of the beloved breakfast treat, pop tarts. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is friday. we made it to friday. it is friday, may 3rd. i'm jonathan lemire. along with u.s. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay. we're in for joe, mika, and the birthday boy, willie geist. we have former white house director of communications to president obama, jennifer palmieri. pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post," eugene robinson. and managing deputy politics reporter for "politico," you just saw him on "way too early," sam stein. we have a lot to get to. we should note, at the top there, what we played, president biden, after days and weeks of unrest of college campuses, finally made public comments. it'd been more than a week since

he addressed them. he'd asked his aides the night before to prep remarks in case he did need to speak about them ahead of his major speech next week about anti-semitism. when the white house and nation woke up yesterday morning to the scenes of unrest at ucla, they felt they couldn't wait any longer. we heard from the president. >> yeah. first of all, pop tarts for breakfast, that is a bad idea. we've been told not too much sugar at breakfast. we have to move on. >> i haven't touched a pop tart in a while, but they are delicious, we all know. apparently, this movie is akin to a sputnik-esque space race. the race to create the pop tart. it is supposed to be hilarious. i can't wait to see what jerry has to say. >> so we could land a man on the moon or make a pop tart, putting that in the same breath, okay. >> yeah. i get the white house wants to get the kids home for the summer. they felt they had to say

something. you know, there's two conflicting bases here that the president has to reach out to. there's the base who are the kids in universities who are focused on gaza, who are upset about the government's policies, who don't like the idea their tax dollars are being used to fund those weapons that are being used against palestinians, but that is an equally important base for the president, and that is swing voters who may be looking at the kinds of scenes they saw in columbia, maybe looking at the scenes at ucla, and the president had to try to reach out to both of those. i thought it was really interesting. it sounded to me like he was a much more focused in on the swing voters. this is the speech that administrations and universities would have been happy to hear. he was saying what the universities themselves have been saying, that the violence, that's unlawful. yes, peaceful protests, but this kind of disruption, that doesn't work. okay. we're going to begin this hour, though, with the latest developments surrounding donald trump's criminal hush money trial. court will resume this morning

after keith davidson, the former lawyer for stormy mcdaniels and karen mcdougal, completed his testimony yesterday. senior legal correspondent laura jarrett has the takeaways from his day on the stand. >> reporter: former president trump arriving on court, watching his defense team go on offense, casting a key prosecution witness as out to extort him for money. the defense hoping to discredit keith davidson, the lawyer who associated payoffs for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. both threatened to go public of stories of sex with mr. trump ahead of the 2016 election. trump denied relations with either woman and denied knowledge of the payoffs. davidson had a habit of shaking down people for something. davidson testified at length about his negotiations with mr. cohen, but he admitted he

never spoke to the former president. he dealt with painted as desperate and despondent that mr. trump wouldn't make him chief of staff. mr. cohen said, i can't believe i'm not going to washington. cohen saying, he'd saved trump so many times, you don't even know. davidson testifying about cohen, i thought he was going to kill himself. a helpful point for the defense as it tries to cast cohen as having an ax to grind against mr. trump. the former president is accused of illegally doctoring his internal records to disguise his repayments to cohen, making cohen's testimony critical for prosecutors, who are now seeking additional fines against mr. trump, saying he violated a gag order again by calling his former fixer a liar. while the defense argues the former president should be allowed to defend himself against cohen's frequent criticism. >> i'm unconstitutionally gagged. he gagged me.

i am not supposed to be talking to you, i would say, because he gagged me. >> we can fact-check that as not true. that was nbc's laura jarrett reporting. let's now bring in former litigator and msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. lisa, you've been following this trial so very closely. let's start with your broad takeaways from yesterday, what we heard from davidson. what'd you see? >> we were swimming in a place nobody really wanted to be, like just drowning in the muck. but when you take away the hulk hogan and lindsay lohan and all the other people with whom keith davidson dealt, at base, keith davidson is a person who testified about his transactions with michael cohen and how desperate michael cohen was to get these deals done. the ultimate take away that he had, even though he never dealt with donald trump directly, was that donald trump was the ultimate source of the funding. in other words, while he understood that cohen at some point put up the money himself for the stormy daniels deal, it

was always his understanding that trump was going to be the ultimate source and the payor. >> cohen looms large here, obviously, such a key player throughout this. have we gotten a better sense as to when we might hear from him, when he'll be called to the stand? we know that trump's lawyers, the defense, are really going to try to make an issue of his credibility. are you seeing enough efforts by the prosecution to bolster that, to counteract what's coming? >> we see a lot of it in a couple of ways. one is surrounding the case with other sources of evidence. whether they be audio recordings, for example. we heard a couple yesterday. or all sorts of paper. text messages, emails. of course, there's the effort to surround cohen with other people that he dealt with directly, so that they can corroborate his story. mary mccourt, our colleague, made a good point yesterday. they're trying to get the jury to see cohen wasn't a well-liked

person, even in trump world. by the time they encounter him, they are immune to the fact he is not very likable, yet, are willing to hear his story because it's already been bolstered by other people, whether it be david pecker, keith davidson, or the witnesses we have yet to hear from, including potentially hope hicks. >> what's up next? >> we're still hearing from a man named doug douse. he is a forensics specialist in the d.a.'s office. his role is to authenticate lots of the stuff taken off cohen's phone. how did it get from cohen's phone into the d.a.'s hand? one of the things i thought was really interesting yesterday was the insinuation by trump's team that the data on cohen's phone could have been manipulated or deleted before it was in the d.a.'s hand. that is a deep state conspiracy waiting to explode over the weekend, and perhaps engineered, jen, not for the audience of the jurors in this case, but for the larger populous of jurors, aka

voters, who might be interested in hearing something that dovetails with trump's frequent refrains of this is rigged, this is a witch hunt, they've been out to get me, this is a biden trial, right? hearing the fbi, for example, could have insufficiently protected the data, or worse, manipulated it themselves, that's a narrative that goes straight to the feedback loop. >> yeah. >> gene robinson, we have the 12 jurors and the alternates, but th electorate. i and dozens of reporters in the campaign used to get threatening phone calls from cohen. we know who he was. this is also -- yesterday, in particular, such a tawdry display of the unseeminess of this world. how is it playing to the broad voters, particularly those who might still be trying to decide where to vote in november?

>> you know, it's a highly unattractive world, as you said, seamy and kind of, you know, salacious and awful. i think most people watching this might take issue with the question of whether or not this lawyer is an extortionist. that doesn't get to the question of the trial, though, the falsification of business records as a felony. so i'm not quite sure which way it cuts. i'm curious to ask lisa, lisa, how do you think it played at least inside the courtroom and maybe outside of the courtroom? because this is really, like, tawdry on steroids, the whole story we heard yesterday. >> it's absolutely tawdry on steroids. to your point about whether davidson engaged in something

akin to what he'll call extraction, if not extortion. to the extent that jurors believe that trump lowered himself into this world as opposed to the fact that he might have been floating well above it, that's really the question that the d.a. has to answer. they have to show these people, not only that this seamy underbelly of american gossip existed, but that trump was willing to dive into it with those folks. >> lisa, sam stein here. i guess i'm caught up in the same issue, which is, if you can't establish that people like keith davidson were in direct communication with trump, in fact, he was talking to michael cohen, isn't that a problem? don't you need to say, yes, trump knew of this stuff and directed it? otherwise, what are you hanging this on? >> you're right, you have to show that trump knew about this stuff and directed it, which is where cohen comes in. also where people perhaps connected to the campaign come in. remember, david pecker, for example, spoke extensively with trump, albeit about karen

mcdougal. what we might need to see now is how trump interacted with other people in his orbit, even if it is after the fact, sam, after the payments were made, i mean, in acknowledging that this stuff actually happened. that's where i'm particularly eager to hear from hope hicks. hope hicks previously testified to the house judiciary committee that during the campaign itself, she was not aware of hush money payments. everything she knew about stormy daniels and karen mcdougal she learned from the press. on the other hand, she refused to testify about any knowledge or involvement she had in these issues once she got to the white house. we're now at a point, five years later, where executive privilege has been litigated extensively. hope hicks probably can't rely on executive privilege to get her out of talking about those things now. what i want to know, how did hope hicks go from the campaign to a point in time where david pecker says he talked to her and sarah sanders about whether it was worth extending karen mcdougal's arrangement with the

"national enquirer." hope hicks had an understanding at some point david pecker paid mcdougle. what did she know? what did she discuss with trump himself? i'm eager to hear it in the days to come. >> let's close with an update on the gag order. trump saying yesterday that it is preventing him from testifying. please fact-check that. also, just what we heard in the hearing and how you think this plays out going forward. >> i think the strongest point for trump's folks was pointing to recent tweets by michael cohen. that gets them the closest to their defense of trump is really just trying to defend himself. on the other hand, trump's statement about the jury coming from a pool of 95% democrats, the jury had already been seated when he made that comment. juan merchan didn't seem particularly friendly to the arguments the defense was making. then when they sort of trotted out the, look what you made him do defense, i'll call it, michael cohen is on twitter, even look at the press behind us, they're talking about every

whisper we make to our client and candidate, merchan was having none of that. he said, look, your client is the criminal defendant here. none of those folks are subject to my gag order right now, nor could some of them be. i'm interested in talking about your client, his behavior, and his choices. >> those reporters also reporting when trump seems to fall asleep. he took to social media to say he was simply resting his beautiful, blue eyes. we'll leave it that. lisa rubin, invaluable, as always. thank you, lisa. coming up on "morning joe" in just win minute, order has been restored on the campus of ucla after police arrested more than 200 protesters there. we'll bring you the latest in the fallout. plus, president biden breaks his silence on those nationwide demonstrations. we'll play for you his new remarks. also ahead, we'll talk to retired navy admiral james stavridis about where things

stand in the cease-fire negotiations between israel and hamas, as well as the new worries about china's involvement in the war in ukraine. "morning joe" is back in 60 seconds.

the campus of ucla remains orderly this morning following the chaos we saw play out yesterday morning. police arrested more than 200 protesters from an encampment. officers in riot gear swarmed the university early yesterday morning. they confronted protesters and dismantled the camp. the clash lasted several hours. police had to launch flares to disperse the crowd. according to the chancellor of ucla, about 300 people did leave voluntarily. the university called the police earlier in the week after the protest turned violent. fights erupted between pro-palestinian demonstrators and israeli supporters. ucla then declared the encampment illegal. the chancellor explained the school's decision in a statement yesterday, writing, quote, while

many of the protesters at the encampment remain peaceful, ultimately, the site became a focal point for serious violence, as well as a huge disruption to our campus. meanwhile, president biden, as we said earlier, has broken his silence on the unrest at college campuses. yesterday in an unscheduled address delivered from the white house, the president condemned the violence and anti-semitism. >> violent protest is not protected. peaceful protest is. it's against the law when violence occurs. destroying property is not a peaceful protest. it's against the law. vandalism, trespassing, breaking windows, shutting down campuses, forcing the cancellation of classes and graduations, none of this is a peaceful protest. threatening people, intimidating people, instilling fear in people is not peaceful protest. it's against the law. dissent is essential to democracy, but dissent must never lead to disorder or

denying the rights of others so students can finish the semester in their college education. look, it's basically a matter of fairness. it's a matter of what's right. there's the right to protest but not the right to cause chaos. let's be clear about this, as well, there should be no place on any campus, no place in america for anti-semitism or threats of violence against jewish students. there is no place for hate speech or violence of any kind, whether it is anti-semitism, islamophobia, or discrimination against arab-americans or palestinian-americans. it's simply wrong. there's no place for racism in america. it's all wrong. it's un-american. >> then, while answering reporter questions, the president rejected the idea of deploying the national guard to quell this unrest. he also said he will not change his policies on the middle east. let's bring in former supreme allied commander of nato, four

star navy admiral james stavridis, chief international analyst for nbc news. he spent time at tufts university. when you see how police are reacting, are the appropriate measures being taken on campuses, or are administrations going too far in bringing outside law enforcement onto campuses? where do you stand on it? >> i stand in favor of what you just heard from the president of the united states. key word here, fletcher school of law and diplomacy. we are a nation of laws. a peaceful protest is fine. look, i spent much of my life in uniform, defending the rights of people to protest, of free speech, of all of our values. but free speech is different than hate speech, and peaceful protest is different than

criminal behavior. i applaud the administrations that i think are doing about as well as you can in this difficult circumstance because you're trying to find a balance here. but when the protests bleed over into overt criminal behavior, you have to react. take them off campus. arrest them. i would argue, and i say this as a former dean, a simple arrest and release, a catch and release program, if you will, is not a good idea. these students, if they are students -- by the way, many are not students -- they need to receive some kind of sanction from that institution, a suspension or, in extreme cases, an expulsion. >> jen, let's talk about the politics of this. we know president biden reflectively pro-israel has been out and said again he's not changing his policies, but this is a tough moment. we know the people who are protesting here are young voters. biden is having trouble with

them. a lot of are apparently students of color. biden is having trouble with them. at the same time, the scenes of unrest, as we mentioned, risk turning off independents, moderates. give us your evaluation to what he said yesterday. was it enough? what does he also need to say tuesday in what they're billing as a major speech on this moment? >> i think this is probably a placeholder to get to tuesday, right? i think joe biden will win re-election by gaining a diverse group of supporters that are going to have very different views. you're going to have young people of color, and you're going to have older white people. that's how he is going to win, right? when you're trying to put together that coalition, i don't think you can get tripped up about thinking, what am i saying to this audience, to that audience, and trying to differentiate that way. that's when you get lost and you're not leading, right? that is a recipe to not. this is a moment to lead. what he did yesterday, coming

down on the side of law and order, you know, i thought that that was well stated. but i think it is a placeholder to get to tuesday where he can get into the bigger issues about what's actually happening in the conflict. it is billed as a speech on anti-semitism, and i think, you know, you talked about fairness, this question of fairness. last few days, we've heard about fairness and decency from him. i think that's where he is going. i think the tuesday speech, the country needs to, you know -- they need him to tell us what to think of all of this. people do have a lot of mixed feelings about it and are concerned about the protests and if it turns into violence. i think we really do need to hear him set the table for the whole country, not different voting populations, about what is happening here and where the u.s. stands on it. >> it is becoming a significant moment, this tuesday speech, gene robinson. let's remember, for any president, scenes of chaos, scenes of the country being out

of control is damaging for an incumbent running for re-election. 2020, donald trump is running for re-election, there is the pandemic, but we also had scenes of tumult with the protests from george floyd's murder. most was peaceful but there were exceptions. trump was blamed for fostering that sense of unrest. that is the trip wire for biden, too. >> yeah, i mean, it is very perilous. you can go way further back than that. you can go back to 1968. you know, i think history records that the days of rage at the democratic convention in chicago that year contributed to richard nixon's history, to the republican victory in that presidential election, and the people were definitely turned off by what they saw. at the same time, it also, i

think, the protest did sort of move the needle further on the vietnam war. in that sense, they could say they kind of succeeded. i have a question for admiral stavridis, though. if you'd put your dean hat back on for a second, admiral, you know, i don't know the current president of columbia. i knew her predecessor, lee bolinger very well. was talking to him once, and he was complaining there was somebody he really wanted to hire in the political science department or somewhere, somebody who was really terrific, and he just couldn't get the faculty to say yes. i asked, well, you're the president. why don't you just tell him, you know, to hire the guy? he just smiled and laughed and said, "you know, oh, you're so cute. you know, that you think that. you have no idea how this works." >> yeah. >> so the faculty is a major constituency on these university campuses.

>> yeah. >> they have said, you know, the thing they're concerned about is protecting the students, protecting the right of free speech, free and open debate, and they've been kind of errant, especially the columbia faculty. talk about that as a consideration that all the administrators have to take into account. >> great conversation between you and your friend, the president. you know, the last sentence of hemingway's "the sun also rises" is, "isn't it pretty to think so?" that's a pretty good way to think about it. i'll give you a one-word answer that the president could also have used. he could have said, "tenure." these are tenured faculty members. they enjoy extraordinary privilege in that regard. there's a long conversation about why that is. there are pros and cons to it. it's a very protected workforce. that's kind of the answer there. in terms of today's events, many

of these faculty come out of that '68 generation, the older, tenured one, so that becomes a force in this. finally, i would just say to everybody, as we look at these protests, they flash large on the screens, got it, but to my eye, there's about 100 campuses or so that are affected right now. gene, you may know, there are 4,000 institutions in the united states that grant a bachelor's degree. we're not seeing protests, therefore, on 3,900 of them. i think we're going to be okay and get through this moment. going to require some balance, some sensibility in approach, but, ultimately, we can't allow this behaior by students or by faculty. >> yeah. actually, i did have a conversation with somebody in the columbia administration. to gene's point, they said there are perhaps 300 faculty who have been supporting the protesters

over the administration, but columbia has a faculty of about 7,000. the vast majority of the columbia faculty are in support of president shafik and the administration, the actions they're taking. i think, so far at least, the president does have faculty on board with her, which, of course, is a big help. admiral, let me switch the conversation and turn it a little bit to the kind of root of the actual problem we're seeing in the middle east that's causing all of this. >> yeah. >> we're hearing reports that the latest round of hostage negotiations that could lead to a cease-fire is going a little better. hamas reportedly viewing this with some kind of positive light, is what we're being told. what is your reading? what is your understanding on where we are on that? it looked like stop/start, stop/start. the administration keeps doing shuttle diplomacy and comes back with nothing. are we at a moment where we could be looking for some deal over hostages and a cease-fire? >> well, as we say in that part of the world, let's hope so.

i think it is a better than even chance at the moment, which is higher odds than i would have given three weeks ago or a month ago. key indicator, hamas is sending a delegation, physical presence to cairo. i am hearing that the conversations are progressing. here i give credit to the biden administration, who have done a good job, both putting pressure on israel, rightfully so, to get to some kind of yes, and through the arab world, through the leadership and the moneyed side of the arab world, putting pressure on hamas. these are two unwilling parties being somewhat forced toward a compromise position. katty, i think we're probably better than even. that's wonderful. can i tell you one other thing that's going well? as we look at a small percentage of the youth of the united states who are protesting on campuses, another group of

american youths, u.s. military, are off gaza building a pier that's going to open in the next few days, a floating pier, a maritime miracle that's going to move 150 to 200 truckloads of humanitarian aid. that's a pretty good accomplishment. you'll see a spark of good news there. let's hope it increases with a cease-fire in the next few days. >> looming over all of this, the potential israeli invasion of rafah, which netanyahu has said is going to happen whether a cease-fire or hostage deal breaks or not. covering a lot of ground, james stavridis, retired admiral. thank you. we'll talk again soon. coming up on "morning joe," donald trump says that he will only accept the 2024 election outcome if it's honest. i think we know what that means. and president biden is weighing in. we'll play for you biden's message for voters when "morning joe" comes right back.

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huge three. batum to toss it in. floats it. buddy hield throws it up. rebound and it's over! this war of attrition is won by the knicks. >> you just saw josh hart drill the go-ahead three-pointer late in the fourth quarter. the new york knicks hang on, barely, to beat the philadelphia 76ers, 118-115 in game six, to advance to the second round of the eastern conference playoffs. jalen brunson, what a star. he led the way once again. finishing with at least 40 points for the third consecutive game of the series. the knicks advancing to the semiconference finals in consecutive seasons for the first time in nearly a quarter cen century. those knicks will play the pacers in the second round opener, monday night after the indiana pacers knocked out the milwaukee bucks with a 120-98 win at home last night. frustration set in for the bucks

in the final minutes of the game six blowout. milwaukee's patrick beverley, watch this, will most likely face disciplinary action from the league after an altercation with pacers fans sitting behind the milwaukee bench. beverley was twice seen throwing a basketball at fans, hitting at least one in the head. that'll be a lengthy suspension. i would wager what a disappointment for milwaukee. giannis hurt, didn't play. bring in doc rivers, first-round exit. sam stein, what does that set up? knicks/pacers. you, my friend, remember those playoff wars those two teams used to have, punctuated with reggie miller, pacers' hero, villain of msg, giving the choke sign to spike lee and the rest of the knicks fans. this is a fun knicks team. captivated new york city. what are you looking for in the second round? >> i want reggie to put it back on. rick smith to be back on the floor. get the old school guys. luttrell maybe. those are great series, i have to say, and probably the best,

most iconic madison square garden playoff atmospheres in the last three centuries. i don't know if we'll get that. you know, it's not the same villainous characters. brunson is incredible. let's just be honest. he should be mvp. he's been a marvel to watch. no, he should be mvp, okay? three straight 40-point games, it is remarkable. whether you like him or not, it is just wonderful to have good basketball in the garden. playoff basketball in the garden. there's not another atmosphere like it. >> yeah, who doesn't like jalen brunson? i mean, he is -- >> i love him. >> he is fabulous. what a great player. a blue collar player. he is so tricky and so strong. he's got the upper body strength. he is a scoring machine. i mean, he is amazing. i'm a little punchy this morning because i had to stay up and watch the game. it was so exciting. you know, the knicks went way up by 20 points, and then here came back the sixers.

it was back and forth. you really didn't know until the last five minutes how this was going to work out. lemire, does it matter? i mean, whoever gets through, eventually, somebody is going to have to beat your celtics. they're awfully strong. then whoever comes out of the east is going to have to beat one of those monster teams from the west. i mean, if you watch the timberwolves, they look amazing. of course, if the champs, the nuggets, come, does anybody from the east have a chance this year? >> celtics are set up well in the east, assuming porzingis comes back at some point. he was injured. they'll get the winner of cavs/magic game six. that series is tonight. celtics dispatched with the hated miami heat with ease earlier this week. you're right, the western conference is loaded. t-wolves and nuggets is a second round series but feels like a conference finals. the thunder are good, too. let's focus on what really matters, lakers are already gone

home. coming up here, coming up on "morning joe," we will play for you joe scarborough sitting down with the all-star cast of the new film "unfrosted." it follows the birth of the iconic pop tart. we will hear from jerry seinfeld about his directorial debut in this hilarious new comedy. that's coming up next on "morning joe." slowing my cancer from growing and living longer are two things i want from my metastatic breast cancer treatment. and with kisqali, i can have both. kisqali is a pill that when taken with an aromatase inhibitor helps delay cancer from growing and has been proven to help people live significantly longer across three separate clinical trials.

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6:43 a.m. beautiful live shot from the top of our building, 30 rock. the man familiar with nbc is comedy legend jerry seinfeld. he is also no stranger to assembling an all-star roster of talent. his latest project may take the cake. the movie titled "unfrosted," which is available beginning today on netflix, chronicles an alternate history of the invention of the pop-tart. you heard me, the pop-tart. it features a star-studded cast, including melissa mccarthy, amy schumer, christian slater, jim gaffigan, max greenfield, and the comedian sarah cooper, who you might remember from these donald trump parodies. >> person, woman, man, camera, tv. okay, that's very good. if you get it in order, you get extra points.

if you -- okay, now he's having you other questions. >> she owned social media there for a stretch in 2020. joe recently sat down with jerry and some of the "unfrosted" cast to discuss the making of the film and the experience working together. >> i grew up in a time where cereal was king. >> tell us about it. >> crisp versus quake. >> yes! >> you remember that. that should have been in the movie. >> you have the archie's records on the back. >> yeah. >> it really did have a huge cultural impact. >> yeah. >> probably why we're a country of obese people. [ laughter ] >> we weren't fat then, though. >> yeah. >> everyone was thin in the '60s. eating the same junk. whatever what happened. >> so you came up with this idea during covid. >> my friend, spike feresten, who wrote "the soup nazi." >> no soup for you.

>> we used to joke for years about doing a movie about the pop-tart because i'd talk about it in my comedy set. >> the biggest food thing, when they invented the pop-tart, the back of my head blew right off. >> just as a stupid idea. >> yeah. >> he said, let's talk about it. andy robin, another writer from my series, was talking with us and said, why don't we do it like the right stuff? when i heard that -- >> you were in. >> i'm in. >> that's comedy. >> your first directorial bit in a feature film? >> yeah, definitely. doing the series, larry and i were always directing. we weren't moving cameras or doing the prep, stuff like that. >> any trepidation going into it as far as directing? do you look at other directors and go, i'm better? >> when i have funny people like this, it's about getting them in

a good mood, and the fun will just happen, you know. >> sarah. >> food were great. >> were you in a good mood during this? you had a horrible time? >> it was awful. >> you were telling me, one of the worst experiences of your life. >> i had to stand on an apple box for several hours and kept my eyes open. it was really awful. >> horrible. >> you know what? it's a good movie. if that's what you have to do to get a good movie. >> as a director, he was kind of obsessive, you say. he was like christopher nolan, as far as where you place your hands. >> where you place your hands, where your eyes are, how loud your voice is, how quick you talk. i mean, this guy -- >> i had a great time. >> of course you did. you want to be in the next movie. >> that's it. >> so max had the metal tongs on the toaster, remember that scene? >> yes. >> ah! >> must you be so dramatic? >> i said, okay, max, now you're getting electrocuted, but you're going to fight through it. >> right.

it's beautiful. >> that was one of my favorite funny moments. >> favorite moments? >> yeah. most people would let go, you know. >> not max. >> i said, no, you're going to fight through it. >> max, what was it like working? actually, you were playing the rival of a guy that was your idol. seems to me it'd be like any musician getting a chance to jam with paul mccartney. >> yeah, well, just working with jerry. they called me, you bring up "oppenheimer," and they said, want to audition? they sent me some dummy sides. i read it and go, this is -- no one is going to believe me as a scientist. they go, are you sure? i go, yeah, this is not -- no one wants to see this. then three weeks later, they called, "hey, you want to audition for jerry seinfeld's pop-tart movie?" 100%, this is all for me. >> all in. you played the kellogg that would fail.

>> yes. >> edsel. >> it was great. i played jerry's boss in the movie. >> yeah, you did. >> similar to everyday life because i tell him how to do everything. >> christian, i would not have expected you to be a milk mafia don. >> yeah, in other words, an element of danger, i felt. yeah, elements to the character that were brilliantly written, and i liked the guy's backstory. you know, he's got children. he's got mouths to feed. >> exactly. >> this guy coming along and creating a thing that doesn't need milk was very upsetting. >> so what was it like, jim, just the people you got to work with? we're joking a lot about "oppenheimer" and christopher nolan. they always say, you know, when he calls, you do it. i would guess, and i'm serious here, same thing, like, jerry seinfeld wants you to be in this movie. >> oh, yeah. i definitely wanted to be

involved immediately. but to your point, i mean, every day, it was, you know, you're like, i can't believe this person is coming in. all these funny people upon funny people. some people, you're like, how did jerry pull this off? it is an enormous cast, and it is -- it really covers the spectrum of everyone. >> incredible cast. >> yeah. >> you made light in these politically correct times. >> yeah. >> i wrote this down. mussolini, jfk, the cuban missile crisis, jfk assassination. the aside about jfk jr., very gutsy, maverick. >> making progress. >> it's not to scale. >> what are you, 5 years old? little john-john draws better than that. i think there is something wrong with him. >> i'm just curious, how did that writing go? did you say, yeah, just throw in this line about jfk jr. because everybody is making jokes about him right now. >> yeah, that was a bill burr ad

lib, and we loved it. it was really funny. >> i'm not surprised. >> i didn't know that. >> yeah. it got much worse. [ laughter ] >> he had roosevelt coming over for a naked swim in that scene, and we couldn't quite put the history of that together. >> yeah. >> eleanor roosevelt is coming over, and you're going to swim in the nude? what is that called, skinny-dipping? >> sarah, what was the part for you that was the most exciting? what'd you enjoy the most? >> well, watching the movie was great. i mean, i watched it many times now. actually, when we were filming it, the funeral scene was actually one of my favorites. when i saw the box of kellogg's that said, "funeral size," that was where, like, i was, like, this movie is brilliant. it is punch line after punch line. >> jerry, let me ask you, where did you come up with the idea or the funeral scene?

>> credit to andy robin, who said full cereal honors. i thought, well, what would that be? then i came up with, we're going to turn the gravesite into a cereal bowl. that's why we have killed the guy. there was no reason to kill that guy. i just wanted to do the funeral scene. so we killed somebody to have a funeral. being a cereal, you know, obsessive, anything that's a hole, i want to put milk and cereal in it. >> anything that's a hole. [ laughter ] >> i just -- >> which brings us, jim, to the award ceremony. >> yes. >> the award ceremony and some of the cereals that didn't make it past the first year. one of them called? >> grandma's hole. >> you know what, i never liked that joke. i didn't like that joke.

>> but you laugh at it, right? >> yeah, but i don't like it. >> i think, also, that's some of what is so amazing about this movie. we're talking about one of a thousand bits and layers and, like, when we talk about the funeral, there's, like, six different elements that are so absurd. ♪ maria ♪ >> froot loop, but the top of it is a nest for some reason. that's the detailing that is so fun about this movie. but it is thought out, and there is a strong point of view with it. >> right. >> that's what i kind of negotiate with jerry. it is point of view driven, not to be all nerdy. >> what is a strong point of view? >> what is the point of view? >> well, the strong point of view is in every situation,

there's a strong choice made. you know, some of it makes sense, and some of it intentionally doesn't make sense. >> yes. >> it's like -- >> never put the horizon in the center, right? >> right. >> exactly. >> or it is oddly kind of this reference of, like, how our culture was okay with that. you know what i mean? it's a strange kind of commentary. >> i love watching movies over and over again. >> sure. >> i just watch them over and over again. >> yeah. >> this is a movie that i know i'm going to watch five, six, seven times, because things move so quickly. i talked about the jfk jr. joke, which 90% of the people who see it the first time will probably miss it. you talk about the other things. it is layer upon layer upon layer, isn't it? >> absolutely. goes deep into a peculiar time. >> even the whole milkman thing. >> yes. >> it's not just, like, oh, the

milkman is bad. there is a complexity and a hierarchy. >> that's right. >> it is completely justified. at one point, i give a speech explaining milk with a commentary on the influence of, you know, corporations. >> big tech. >> big milk. >> it all makes sense. >> it makes sense. i'm curious, how did you pitch this? i guess you don't have to pitch anymore. you're like, hey -- >> you do. >> -- i'm jerry, and i'll do this movie. >> if you want a lot of money. i wanted it to be big. a big hollywood movie. >> it was. >> yeah. >> i've got to say, i heard the concept. one of the things that surprised me, max, was this is like a big -- there's a big feel to this. you feel like you're in battle creek, michigan, in 1963. >> if you look at, you know, a little town in michigan with two gigantic cereal companies that hate each other, it is a perfect comedic setup. >> perfect. >> none of it makes sense, but

we all know it was true. >> yeah. >> they were in battle creek, michigan. the name of the town is battle creek. >> come on. >> it was there. it's all there. >> the story writes itself. >> writes itself. >> it's a love story. >> it is a love story. >> yeah. >> we even put a love story in. >> there is a love story. >> absolutely. >> it is also america's love of sugar. >> it is. >> that was joe's thoroughly enjoyable conversation with the cast of the netflix movie "unfrosted," directed by jerry seinfeld and begins streaming today. coming up in our fourth hour, we'll talk to award-winning actor jeff daniels. he'll join us live in studio with a new look at his new mini series, "a man in full." you won't want to miss that. "morning joe" will be right back.

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a free trial today. i have to get a pen. let's go.

yeah, throw it up here. give me a pen, please. you think biden can bend down like that? i don't think so. >> is that where we're setting the bar for the presidency now? can you pick up a pen? literally something they ask you to do on a field sobriety test. >> he could pick up the pen, but he couldn't catch it when it was thrown to him. but that is where we are right now. welcome back to "morning joe." just a moment before 7:00 a.m. here on the east coast on this friday, may 3rd. i'm jonathan lemire along with the bbc's katty kay. joe, mika, and willie have the day off. happy to say jen palmieri and gene robinson are still with us. tough to top a movie on pop-tarts, but we'll struggle

on. day 11 of donald trump's hush money criminal trial which will get under way in about two hours from now. before the start of yesterday's testimony, there was another hearing on whether the former president violated the judge's gag order. earlier this week, judge merchan fined trump $9,000 for violating the order. the hearing yesterday addressed prosecutors' allegations that trump had committed four additional violations. the judge seemed particularly concerned with trump's comments going after the jury and the impact those comments may have on other potential witnesses. but the judge did not issue a decision yesterday. now, once the gag order hearing concluded, the trial resumed with trump's attorneys trying to undermine the testimony of a key witness for the prosecution. keith davidson wrapped up his second day on the witness stand. he is the former attorney for both ex-playboy model karen mcdougal and adult film actress

stormy daniels. davidson gave jurors details about the hush money payments. trump's defense team then questioned davidson about several celebrity gossip stories as they tried to paint him as an extortionist and trump as a victim of a tabloid shakedown ahead of the 2016 election. the next witness called was a forensic specialist from the manhattan district attorney's office. he testified about the accuracy of audio recordings from michael cohen's phone, including a conversation between cohen and davidson. the jury also heard a previously released recording of a phone call between cohen and trump in which they discussed the payment made to karen mcdougal and the shell company that was created to pay her. let's bring in state attorney for palm beach county, florida, dave aronberg. dave, let's start there with -- we'll go back to the gag order. start with the testimony. that was your takeaways from both davidson and then this

forensic specialist? >> trump wants his attorneys to be like roy cohn. he wants them to be aggressive. these attorneys were aggressive yesterday, but i think they missed their mark. they were going after davidson for being an extortionist, a bad guy. extortion is not a defense to falsification of business records. extortion is not a defense to campaign finance violations. in their haste to please their client, i don't think they won points when it comes to defending their client. your other question about the gag order? >> yeah, sure. >> well, the gag order sure, i think we should treat trump like everyone else. the thing is, judges have bent over backwards to give them deference because judges don't want to be seen as political. though michael cohen can give as good as he gets, it is still intimidating when a defendant can criticize a witness. it chills other witnesses. i have to tell you as a prosecutor, jonathan, i've never seen a defendant act like this in and get away with it. any other defendant in his situation would be wearing a pair of steel bracelets by now.

>> the $1,000 fine per violation not going to put too much of a dent in donald trump's wallet, but it is about setting a marker, right? saying, look, we are going to treat you like everyone else. what would have to happen for those violations to really escalate, to the point where it could even be potentially a night or two in jail? we should note, trump has seemingly toned down some of the rhetoric since the fines came down. >> i don't think he'll ever serve any time in jail pretrial. i think it is possible he gets sent to time-out. there is a holding area in the courthouse. but he'd have to really attack the jurors. i think that is the bright line. it's one thing to attack witnesses. that's bad enough, especially if it is not michael cohen. when you attack jurors who are not public figures, who didn't sign up for this, they just signed up to do their civic duty, that's where i think the judge will draw the line. it could lead to perhaps a time-out. don't anticipate him wearing an orange jumpsuit soon. >> just the orange hair, we have

to be satisfied with that. >> matches the jumpsuit. >> you have a client who wants his lawyers to do a certain thing and perform. there are no cameras, however. you know, are they hurting his case by trying to -- by acting as trump wants them to do in that courtroom, where it is not about the court of public opinion, it's about the opinion of the 12 jurors? do those antics hurt him? are they -- by appeasing their client, are they hurting their case? >> it could. what they're doing is saying, davidson, you're a sleaze bag. your clients are sleaze bags. look at the people you hang around with. but trump was part of the group, too. michael cohen, who he is trying to tar, davidson, stormy daniels, karen mcdougal, david pecker. now, it was an interesting moment yesterday, when his own lawyers, trump's lawyers, put trump in the same category as hulk hogan and charlie sheen, lindsay lohan, and tela tequila.

>> lindsay lohan doesn't deserve that. >> presumptive nominee for president in the same category as tela tequila. it's the world we're living in. >> hope hicks will take the stand. she, of course, was one of the original trump campaign aides, dating back to 2015. she spent a few years in the white house, as well. a big name, how significant might her testimony be? >> i think it's huge. it's one thing to bash michael cohen for his bias. really, cohen and trump hate each other. we understand that. it is another thing to bash david pecker because he has entered into a non-prosecution agreement. he has an incentive to cooperate. but hope hicks is a trump loyalist. hope hicks rode on air force one with trump, steaming his clothes while he was still wearing them. she is someone on the inside who has no ax to grind here with

donald trump, and she is apparently cooperating. she cooperated with the grand jury. even though previously, when she testified before congress, she seemed to say that she didn't know anything about it, apparently, she does. i think that's going to provide much-needed corroboration for michael cohen, who is the key witness here, but he is flawed because of his prior convictions. that's why you need corroboration. >> state attorney for palm beach county, florida, dave aronberg, thank you for the analysis this morning. we appreciate it. katty, of course, we have to mention this split screen. donald trump sitting in a manhattan courtroom, listening to these tawdry details being bantered about in his trial. where was president biden yesterday? campaigning in the battleground state of north carolina. also, paying respects to the families of some law enforcement officers who were slain there. certainly, no one on the biden campaign is going to directly point out that juxtaposition, but it is there. voters can see it. >> yeah, and they're going to make more of that so long as this trial lasts. they're happy for their candidate to be seen out campaign trail. of course, also, the president

was talking about those college protests. joining the discussion, we have staff writer at "the new yorker," susan glasser. co-host of "the political scene" podcast. you've been writing about this issue, too, exactly what the president was talking about yesterday, making these historical comparisons. in your latest piece titled "is 2024 doomed to repeat 1968 or 2020 or both," you write, in part, this is history as a cautionary tale. the biden-humphrey-gaza-vietnam, trump-nixon parallels may be inexact, but remind me, again, why the democrats decided to pick chicago for this year's convention? already, activist groups are promising major protests over biden's support for israel during the august gathering, but all but guaranteeing bad split-screen visuals emphasizing young progressives disillusioned with a president who needs the young turnout to beat trump. trump has been obsessed with

nixon's 1968 law and order strategy. both his 2016 and 2020 races deployed the same playbook, years before the war in gaza was dividing democrats. of course, he will do so again, especially now that the political conditions appear to resemble that year even more than before. this, it seems to me, is both biden's peril and opportunity." i haven't spoken to a democrat in the last week who hasn't raised '68 and the chicago convention. the parallels work to some extent. are there differences this time around? >> of course, right? history may ly exactly repeats. that was true watching what happened at columbia. amazing, by the way, it was on the exact anniversary of the 1968 columbia takeover of hamilton hall and the police response to that. just extraordinary moment there. but, you know, again, it's not the exact same story here.

let's remember that gaza is not vietnam. one of the things, of course, that powered that student movement in 1968 was the fact that millions of young americans were subject to the draft. they were actually being sent to fight in vietnam. that's not the case in this war. we don't know what will be happening in the middle east by the fall. it could well be that young voters are not focused on that anymore, that they're more focused on the threat to reproductive rights in the country, or some other trumpian outreach that hasn't even happened yet. i think it is important to note that. yes, the -- >> we don't have major political figures who have been assassinated, as we did in '68. >> let's hope we don't have the full 1968 going on here. >> you write this is a moment of opportunity and peril for the biden campaign. what can they do? we heard president biden yesterday. what can -- and all of the college administrators i've spoken to say, listen, this is going to die down when kids go home, but it is not going to go away, necessarily.

what does the biden campaign need to do to persuade those young voters to get out and vote for him in november, but also not turn off swing voters in the middle? he's straddling this. >> that's right. he's got to go up the middle here. now, that is joe biden's instinct, by the way. there's very interesting -- my friend, jim trout, wrote a timely, new biography of hubert humphrey. democrats' failed 1968 nominee. he makes the point, while the fireworks were on the left in 1968, the votes were on the right. that's the straddling that needed to be done, that didn't work in 1968. i do think biden's comments yesterday were indicative, you know, of trying to do that. he said there's a right to protest, but there is not a right to create chaos. i think that's the line that he's going to have to be walking for some months now. >> of course, keeping the focus on donald trump. meanwhile, president joe biden urging americans to take trump at his word after the

presumptive 2024 republican nominee said this week that he'd accept november's election results, quote, if everything is honest. then added, if it's not, you have to fight for the right of the country. upon arriving in north carolina for a campaign event yesterday, biden had this to say about trump's latest remarks. >> mr. president, are you worried that trump says he won't accept the election results? >> listen to what he says. >> listen to what he says? what do you -- >> just listen to what he says. >> gene robinson, there's joe biden telling us to listen to what donald trump is saying. are we missing warning signals? are we taking the former president too seriously, given that he is prone to changing his mind whatever he, you know, has a policy he wants to change his mind on? what's the right way to handle things that trump is saying at the moment? >> well, sometimes trump means what he says, and sometimes he doesn't, right?

it's impossible, really, to know. my assumption about the election is that he won't accept the results if he loses. i mean, you know, we have data on that. we have at least one data point on that. 2020. i think we should be prepared for that sort of nonsense, for what we had in 2020. the other thing, the question to whether or not you actually take trump literally is all the stuff he said in the "time" magazine interiew earlier this week. he talked about what he is going to do in a second term. he's talking about these mass deportations and, you know, putting people in camps, and just this sort of amazing -- calling out the national guard, whether or not the governors want it, to send the guard into cities to fight crime somehow.

he's talking about a lot of what sounds like crazy stuff. this time, if elected, he is going to be surrounded by people who actually know how to move the levers of government. it's a big difference from 2016. >> jen palmieri, this feels like one of the central arguments that president biden and his team are going to need to make between now and the end of the year. we hear it from time to time, the idea of trump being a threat to democracy. they have polling that suggests that plays pretty well, but it is not just polling. it is reality. donald trump, again, is suggesting that as he did in 2016, he warned then, as i chronicled in my book, he wouldn't honor the results of 2016. he happened to win. in 2020 he didn't. he's already laying the groundwork here. if you were part of the biden campaign infrastructure, how would you have the president and his team talk about what is arguably the most important issue on the table? >> i think you have to do it,

you know, every opportunity you can do it. he did it yesterday. you don't let the -- you can't let the opportunity go by, particularly early. you want to, you know, in 2012, very different universe. the obama team worked very hard to define mitt romney in, like, the may/june frame, right? donald trump is somebody that people know very well, but we know that january 6th is a huge vulnerability for him. it is a big vulnerability for him with republicans. you have to cement that now, that he is not somebody new. he is going to continue to be that danger to democracy. we know, you know, look even with the pennsylvania republican primary a couple weeks ago. 20% of republicans did not support him. these are, you know, the haley types that are concerned, particularly about this issue.

it is no cost to him, right? it is not as if there is someone in america that he is trying to appeal to, that liked january 6th. i think they should hammer it as much as they can, just to get people -- you know, it is hard to raise the stakes enough here and to do that in the late spring timeframe. a new ad is hitting donald trump for comments he made about abortion this week. take a look. >> donald trump's new comments on abortion, saying that some states might choose to monitor women's pregnancies to possibly prosecute women who violate abortion bans. >> two years ago, i became pregnant with a baby i desperately wanted. i learned that the fetus would have a fatal condition and never survive. because of the new laws in texas, i had to flee my own state to receive treatment.

if donald trump is elected, that is the end of a woman's right to choose. there will be no place to turn. we could lose our rights in every state, even the ones where abortion is currently legal. that means every woman in every state is at risk. donald trump took away our freedom. we need leaders that will protect our rights and not take them away. that's joe biden and kamala harris. >> i'm joe biden, and i approve this message. >> president biden shared that ad in a post on x yesterday, writing along with it, quote, "donald trump took away women's freedom. i'm fighting to protect your rights." in a follow-up post, he added, quote, "trump is worried the voters will hold him accountable for the cruelty and chaos he created. they will." that from joe biden yesterday. i think ads are more effective when real people are telling real stories. that is, again, very powerful. >> yeah, it is a powerful ad. you're going to see that and

others like it, really bombarded with them, if anything. we're going to make 2024 all about abortion, and it is both backward looking, what is it that donald trump did when he was president? well, he's the one who put in place the supreme court. watching him do the dance in the last few week of trying both to claim credit for the repeal of roe versus wade but also refuse to essentially talk about any new federal restriction on abortion, which is exactly what the republican agenda is, i think it is an awkward dance for donald trump. i, frankly, think it is going to be his major liability. if he does not win, it'll be because of this. >> briefly, in arizona, the legislature overturned the supreme court -- the court's ruling on abortion in that state. do you think that puts democrats now at less of a chance of keeping arizona come the fall? does it make a difference? >> look, we are trying to game out everything politically. let's take a step and recognize that that was good news for

women in arizona who are looking for -- not to be prosecuted under a law that was put in place regulating their bodies from the time of abraham lincoln. it is good news for women in arizona. there's still going to be, as i understand it, abortion rights initiative on the ballot in arizona this fall. i think that supporters of abortion rights are expecting that that will still affect and boost democratic turnout in the race this fall. we'll have to see. >> susan glasser, thanks very much for coming in. read her piece on the comparisons with the 1968 election campaign. "the new yorker"'s susan glasser. still ahead on "morning joe," congress takes action on anti-semitism as gaza war protests roil colleges across the country, passing legislation with bipartisan support. one of the bill's authors, josh gottheimer, will join us straight ahead. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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we are not pro hamas. >> why do you call for intifada.

do you know what i means? what is the dedefinition? you can't answer because you don't understand. it is an armed resistance. you are calling for the mass genocide of jews. that is what you're doing. >> i'm not calling for that. >> you might not know you're doing this. >> i think it is honestly despicable that you guys are using the hamas or any of this to, like, say that we are still trying to do it. no, that is not true. >> so that is a pro-palestinian student at ucla interrupting an interview with a jewih student earlier this week, which sparked an intense debate between the two. joining us now, co-chair of the house problem solver's caucus, congressman josh gottheimer of the state of new jersey. he co-authored legislation that passed the house to broaden the definition of anti-semitism. we know president biden will be speaking on tuesday on that very

topic. thank you for joining us this morning. let's start with your reaction to that moment we played for you, and more broadly, the unrest you've seen on college campuses across the country in recent days. >> i mean, shocking is only one way to describe it. we've seen so many comments and chants over the last months which i just can't believe any student would scream out at anyone, right? whether it's supporting hamas, calling for a thousand or 10,000 more october 7ths, deaths to zionists, kill the jews. all this is totally unacceptable, as it would be of hate of any kind against any student on our college campuses. >> josh, it is palmieri. good morning. good to see you. >> good morning. >> tell us about -- so the legislation that passed the house yesterday, tell us what's in it, what is needed. some democrats voted against it.

jerry nadler cited he has free speech concerns. tell us why it is needed. you've responded to the free speech concerns. >> sure. in my opinion, as well as 320 others in the house, there is nothing controversial about what we said, which was, defining what anti-semitism is for the purposes of title 6 discrimination on college campuses, so there is meat on the bone of what the definition of anti-semitism is. as you know, it is one of the things that the department of education looks at when it looks at discrimination on a college campus, where we should have no place for hate. what is important for people to know, three administrations now, democrat and republican, have been using this definition, called the ira definition, as well as 30 plus states, countries around the world. there is nothing controversial about it. it depends, which is the key point here, it protects speech,

which i believe deeply in. it allows people to criticize israel or to speak out. what it doesn't allow is for hatred, intimidation, and violence, driven, of course, by anti-semitism, which we're seeing on far too many college campuses right now. >> congressman, clearly what has happened the last few weeks has shown there is a need for more clarity in the definitions, exactly what constitutes hate speech, what is allowed and what isn't allowed. were you surprised by the array of people who have opposed the legislation? there's some on the left and also some on the right, i think matt gaetz called this ridiculous hate speech. congresswoman jayapal raised the charlottesville comparison when republicans didn't speak up. i don't know if that is particularly relevant when you're doing definitions. but it is interesting you have a kind of broad spectrum of people opposed to the bill. i'm wondering what you make of

that. >> it is obviously deeply disappointing by some of my colleagues, by the way, including some of the extremists, like matz gaetz and marjorie taylor greene say crazy things which had nothing to do with the bill itself. i guess it is not surprising in this day and age. i don't understand their opposition at all. listen, our leadership, including hakeem jeffries, who made it clear how much he supported this legislation, came out strong. also, he's spoken against anti-semitism and hate on all campuses, as did the president yesterday. what he said was incredibly important. speaking out as i believe is right, violent protest is not protected. peaceful protest is. also speaking out clearly and saying there is no place in america, no place on any campus for anti-semitism or violence against jewish students, or any students for that matter. i think that's what we should all be as leaders across the board, across party should be saying clearly.

there is nothing controversial about standing up to hate or anti-semitism, and making sure our campuses are safe for all students, regardless of their background. make sure every college campus is safe. kids can study. they can take exams. they can graduate without fear of threat and intimidation from others, including those coming from off campus, who are part of a lot of these protests. >> congressman, this is gene robinson. i know there have been some outsiders at the protests. apparently, a significant number at columbia. there have also been a lot of students there. i wonder if you would just look at the bigger picture for a second. this is a relatively small number of students actually pitching the tents and participating in the protest. on the other hand, i have seen polling that shows younger american adults are more sympathetic to the palestinians

in the israeli-palestinian conflict than they are to the israelis. a marked difference between voters under 30 and all the aged cohorts over 30. what do you make of that? what do you think? is that a concern to you? how do you address that? >> there is a difference between being sympathetic, as i am, to innocent palestinians being used as human shields by hamas, a foreign terrorist organization, and then outwardly supporting hamas, right? a lot of these protests, and, of course, again, i'm a huge supporter of making sure students and anyone can speak out in a peaceful way and protest in a peaceful way, but i believe the country, if you ask that question differently and said, and i've seen polling on this, too, do you support hamas, a foreign terrorist organization, right? an organization that attacked

and killed more than 1,200 brutally on october 7th, including 40 americans and americans remaining hostage, something we don't talk about every day. i met with the american hostage families again this week. one hostage family is in my district. when you ask about that, people, of course, feel deeply that we should do everything to get the hostage families home, just like we should get humanitarian aid into gaza. these are not false choices, but there is a strong opposition to terrorists who hamas and other iranian proxies, remember, want to hate us, america, more than they hate israel. they're continuing to fire missiles at the service members, houthis, palestinian jihad, iraqi proxies, iranian proxies are continuing to fire and have killed american service members. when you talk about it that way, standing up to terror, i think you get a different answer. >> co-chair of the problem solvers caucus, democratic congressman josh gottheimer of

new jersey, an important discussion this morning. thank you for joining us. >> thanks for having me. i appreciate it. on this topic, senate majority leader chuck schumer joining forces with house speaker mike johnson in extending an invitation to israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu to speak before congress despite tensions between netanyahu and many democrats over the ongoing war in the middle east. this revolution comes six weeks after schumer called for netanyahu's ouster, suggesting israel needed new elections. johnson originally initiated the invitation for netanyahu to address lawmakers about a month ago. now, schumer is ready to sign on because the timing worked out. unclear if netanyahu, while in washington, will meet with president biden. those relations, of course, have been frosty. netanyahu before the war had wanted a white house invitation. the white house nixed that. the two men met on the sidelines of the united nations and then a couple weeks later, the hamas terror attack upended the

relationship and the region. we, of course, will keep you posted on the days ahead. coming up next here on "morning joe," republican congresswoman marjorie taylor greene says that she'll force a vote on a motion to vacate speaker johnson next week. we'll bring you the latest on that. and why our next guest says it is all part of the primary problem. we'll explain next. sure, i'm a paid actor, and this is not a real company, but there is no way to fake how upwork can help your business. search talent all over the world with over 10,000 skills you may not have in house. more than 30% of the fortune 500 use upwork because this is how we work now. today, at america's beverage companies,... ...our bottles might still look the same...

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white house on this sunny may morning. in a few hours, president biden will award the presidential medal of freedom to 19 individuals who have made exemplary contributions to the prosperity, values, or security of the united states and world peace. the medal of freedom is the nation's highest civilian honor. this year's recipients include businessman and former new york city mayor michael bloomberg, journalist and television pioneer phil donahue, former vice president al gore, and the actress michelle yeoh, who recently became the first asian woman to win the academy award for best actress. this year's civil rights leader and world war ii vet, medgar evers, will receive the award

j and, well, someone unlikely to receive the award is marjorie taylor greene. her threat to oust johnson is back. analysis from the unite america institute points to how this is an example of what the group calls the primary problem. greene and the two gop allies supporting her bid to oust johnson, gosar and thomas massie, won their elections in districts that lean heavily to republican candidates. in the primary, they were nominated with only about 15% of eligible voters in their districts combined. collectively, the three districts represent less than 1% of the voting population of the united states. look at all the chaos that has followed. the executive director of unite america joins us now in the studio. nick kroiano, author of "the

primary solution, rescuing our democracy from the fringes." why do we get into this position? >> what we're seeing now is a good example of why congress has a 15% approval rating. the american people desire and deserve public servants willing to work with each other and solve problems. what they get are partisan extremists, if not conspiracy theorists, who are facing fame, money, and power. we focused a lot on who they are, but we think it is important to focus on how did they get elected. they get elected mostly in low turnout party primaries where the incentive is to play to the base voters and those special interests that influence the voters, rather than represent a true majority. it is no wonder we're left with the division and dysfunction we see. >> i was thinking about that during the primary campaign for president. president trump was being nominated and a whole load of people were disenfranchised from the process. in many states, the process is closed.

is that part of the problem, as well? >> exactly. 15 states, independent voters are actually prohibited from voting for either party. >> independent, you don't get a say. >> unconscionable in our democracy. >> doesn't sound massively democratic. >> hall of veterans are independent, majority of young people. how do we tell people who fought for the country and those who are the future of the country don't get a say in the democracy? it is wrong. good news, there's ways to fix this that doesn't require changing the constitution or an act of congress. states can amend these state laws to give all voters the right to vote for any candidate in every election. >> who is doing what to make this better? >> well, what is exciting is this year, we're seeing a half dozen states pursue ballot initiatives that would open party primaries to all voters and give those voters the right to vote for any candidate. that includes states like idaho, where just this week, volunteers turned in nearly 100,000 signatures to qualify this initiative for the ballot. voters will get to render a

decision this november. >> jen, i'm keeping a running checklist of the way that the structures of american democracy don't actually reflect the will of american voters, at least the will of the american public. it is getting -- i have to say, i'm getting to page three or four at the moment. this seems to me this is just another one. >> yeah, it is. it is actually ultimately voters that are, you know, electing state legislators that are allowing gerrymandering to continue. that's part of the problem, too. can you speak to that, as well, nick, the question of gerrymandering? >> well, it is true that gerrymandering plays a role in the fact that 83% of congressional districts are not decided in the general election. they're decided months earlier in the primaries. so far this year, nearly a third of congress has already been elected. those elections in the primaries have happened, and the general

election is a foregone conclusion. we can eliminate partisan gerrymandering and still be left with a majority of this problem because most districts are so uncompetitive, not because of the way the district lines are drawn but the way voters have self-sorted geographically, which is why we will not be able to really address this problem until we reform our system of party primaries. >> okay. problem and solution. nick's book is titled "the primary solution, rescuing our democracy from the fringes." executive director of unite america, nick, thank you for coming to the studio and keeping me company here. we'll give into navigating pregnancy during and after complications with "new york times" best-selling author. also coming up -- >> charlie is the biggest hero of real estate in america. the problem is he is going bankrupt. >> almighty. >> mr. croaker, party is over.

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welcome back. it's 7:49 a.m. eastern. as people are getting ready for work, heads-up, i-95 is closed

in both directions in connecticut, about an hour outside of new york city. you're seeing the footage here. a tanker truck and two other vehicles collided yesterday, destroying a highway overpass. really snarled the morning commute. nbc news correspondent emilie ikeda has more. >> i can [ bleep ] feel the heat from here. >> reporter: this morning, the race is on to restore one of the nation's most crucial interstates after a fiery crash in norwalk, connecticut, sent fireballs and thick, black smoke into the sky. >> be advised, it looks like it is fully engulfed under an overpass. >> reporter: a tanker carrying 8,500 gallons of gasoline, a passenger car, and a tractor trailer collided at the the east coast's main highway stretching from florida to maine. this section of the interstate just north of new york city sees

more than 160,000 vehicles a day. now all four stunted local roads and other highways leading to snaking lines of traffic. >> have you ever seen anything like this? >> not really. >> stop, start, stop, start. having to reroute. >> reporter: investigators are still looking into what led to the collision. incredibly they say, there were no serious injuries. >> the fairfield ave overpass is engulf. you need to stop all vehicles from traveling over it. >> reporter: but it caused irreparable damage to an overpass. >> the heat from the burning fuel compromised some of the bridge. so that bridge is going to have to come down. >> reporter: last summer, a similar gasoline-fueled fire was so intense it actually caused a section of i-95 near philadelphia to collapse. while the damage wasn't as severe this time, connecticut's governor declaring a state of emergency and urging everyone to avoid the area as the repairs

ramp up. >> my recommendation is if you can't stay home, take the train. stay away from the cars. >> that's nbc's emilie ikeda reporting. good luck to commuters this morning. we turn overseas now and china, partially to blame for the momentum shift in ukraine that has now come to favor russia. that revelation according to the top intelligence official here in the united states. in a hearing before the senate armed services committee yesterday, director of national intelligence avril haines said beijing's components of materials to russia's defense industry has helped moscow rebuild its own forces after suffering staggering losses the past two years since the invasion began. she said while china was set to provide lethal weaponry, they haven't, but they have given tools for russia's illegal military campaign. the state of the war has really stalled there on the front.

russia making small progress, jenn palmieri, and they captured some villages, but putin also bombarding ukrainian cities with missiles in recent days, really escalated the attacks. so we know that here in the states, finally, the national security supplement was passed. president biden and his team, a big win for them certainly, but i've got new reporting this morning with some colleagues about how the biden team now messaging around that war. they feel like now's the moment to step back a little bit. the president is going to be going to france to commemorate the 80th anniversary of d-day in just about a month's time. certainly there he'll deliver a major speech connecting the fight for freedom with world war ii and what we're seeing in ukraine, and this goes to earlier, you know, the argument we talked about earlier, about how donald trump is a threat to democracy both at home and abroad. >> right. >> how would you recommend he manage and communicate this -- this conflict which for most americans seems a little distant and less pressing than, say

economic issues? >> right. it's certainly -- it's a very important matter, but it's not urgent in voters' minds. it's great people support it. people supported his decision, and they wanted the funding to go through on only listen a bipartisan basis. i understand, you know, we don't need a war in europe, a war in the -- a big conflict in the middle east, and protests at home, right? that's not -- that's not the composite picture we want to emerge with the world when you're president of the united states now. it's smart to, you know, look at ukraine, the passage of that bipartisan support, and the trip to europe on the anniversary of d-day, correct? that's what it is? and this message, this is the her of the american democracy, this is our role in the world. i'm leader of the free world, and this is -- this is how the u.s. delivers on its commitments and by what the way, we're doing

that. it's a normalization of, you know, to make people understand -- look back at the history of america's role in the world and also that government can work, congress with work. we can work together on making those kinds of gains and i'm keeping -- i'm keeping the world, you know, i'm keeping the world together. >> yeah, and that contrast with trump. government can work, but also america plays a vital roles with our allies across the globe. >> leading nato again, right? >> there will be a trio of set pieces for the president to make dhas at d-day. he's going to the g7 in italy, and the nato founding is in july here in washington. the president will make that theme very, very front and center. still ahead here on "morning joe," we'll show you more of president biden's first public comments on the protests happening across college campuses, and we'll get insight on donald trump's hush money trial from our friend, msnbc legal analyst lisa rubin who has been following the case from

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we are not an authoritarian nation where we silence people or squash dissent. the american people are heard. in fact, peaceful protest is in the best tradition of how americans respond to consequential issues, but -- but

neither are we a lawless country. we're a civil society and order must prevail. >> that's president joe biden for the first time publicly addressing the protests on campuses across the country. we'll have more of his comments and bring you the very latest on the demonstrations. plus, we're still six months away from the presidential election, but donald trump is already suggesting that he will not accept the results if he loses. we'll bring you that and president biden's response. and we'll have joe's conversation with jerry seinfeld and the cast of his new netflix comedy "unfrosted." it's a movie about the creation of the beloved breakfast treat pop tarts. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is friday. we made it to friday. it's friday, may 3rd. i'm jonathan lemire along with katty kay. we're in for joe, mika, and the

birthday boy, willie geist. we have former white house communications director to president obama, jennifer palmieri, associate editor of "the washington post," eugene robinson, and deputy managing editor for politics at politico, sam stein. so katty, we made it to friday. we have a lot to get to this morning, but we should just note what we played at the top there. that was president biden after days and weeks of unrest at college campuses finally making some public comments. it had been more than a week since we addressed them. he had asked his aids the night before to start prepping some remarks in case he did need to speak about them ahead of his major speech about anti-semitism, and the white house and the nation woke up yet to those scenes of unrest at ucla, and they felt they couldn't wait any longer and we heard from the president. >> yeah. first of all, pop tarts for

breakfast, we've all been told too much sugar at breakfast time. we're too old for pop tarts. >> i haven't touched a pop tart in a while. they are delicious and we all know. this is akin -- this movie's akin to a sputnik-esque space race. i can't wait to hear what jerry has to say. >> we could land a man on the moon or create a pop tart. we're putting those in the same breath. we made it to friday. the white house is hoping they'll make it to graduation. that seems to be the kind of message from the right has, right? they want to get these kids home. they want to get these kids home for the summer. they felt they had to say something, and there's two conflicting bases here that the president has to reach out to. there is the base who were the kids in universities who are very focused on gaza, who are upset about the government's policies who don't like the idea that their tax dollars are being used the fund those weapons that are being used against palestinians, but there's an equally important base for the president and that's swing

voters who may be looking at the kinds of scenes they saw in columbia, who may be looking at the kind of scenes they saw at ucla, and the president had to reach out to both of those. i thought it was interesting he was much more focused on the swing voters. this is the kind of speech that i think the administrations and universities will have been happy to hear because he was saying what the universities themselves have been saying, that this kind of -- the violence that's unlawful. yes, peaceful protest, but this kind of disruption, that doesn't work. okay. we'll begin this hour with the latest developments around donald trump's hush money trial after keith davidson, the lawyer for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal completed his testimony yesterday. laura jarrett has the big takeaways from his day on the stand. >> reporter: former president trump arriving at court watching his defense team go on offense, casting a key prosecution witness as out to extort him for

money. the defense hoping to discredit keith davidson, the lawyer who negotiated payoffs for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. both threatened to go public with stories of sex with mr. trump ahead of the 2016 election. mr. trump has denied the allegations of both women and denied the knowledge of the advanced payoffs. he said davidson had a habit of shaking down celebrities for money. he testified at length about negotiations with michael cohen, mr. trump's former attorney, but admitting he never met nor spoke to the former president. instead he dealt exclusively with cohen who appeared desperate and despondent, describing a phone call where cohen lamented, i can't believe i'm not going to washington saying he'd saved trump so many times up. don't even know. davidson testifying about cohen, i thought he was going to kill

himself. a helpful point for the defense as it tries to cast cohen as having an axe to grind against mr. trump. the former president is accused of illegally doctoring his internal records to disguise his repayments to cohen, making cohen's testimony critical for prosecutors who are now seeking additional fines against mr. trump saying he violated a gag order again by calling his former fixer a liar. while the defense argues the former president should be allowed to defend himself against cohen's frequent criticism. >> i'm unconstitutionally gagged. he gagged me. i would say it to you, but i can't because he gagged me. >> we can fact-check that as not true. that was nbc's laura jarrett reporting, and let's now bring in former litigator and msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. lisa, you have been following this trial so very closely. let's start with your broad takeaways from davidson. what did you see?

>> i think we were swimming in a place that nobody really wanted to be, like, just drowning in the muck, but when you take away the hulk hogan and lindsay lohan and everybody else he dealt, at base, keith davidson is a person who testified about his actions with michael cohen and how desperate michael cohen was to get these deals done, and the ultimate takeaway he had, even though he never dealt with donald trump directly was that donald trump was the ultimate source of the funding. in other words while he understood that cohen at some point put up the money himself for the stormy daniels deal, it was always his understanding that trump was going to be the ultimate source and the payor. >> so cohen looms large here, obviously. such a key player. have we gotten a better sense of when we might hear from him, when he'll be called to the stand? we know that trump's lawyers and defense are going to try to make an issue of his credibility. are you seeing enough efforts

here from the prosecution to bolster that, to sort of counteract what's coming? >> i think we see a lot of it in a couple of ways. one is surrounding the case with other sources of evidence, whether they be audio recordings for example. we heard a couple yesterday, or all sorts of paper, text messages, emails, and then of course, there's the effort to surround cohen with other people that he dealt with directly so that they can corroborate his story. our colleague made a really good point yesterday saying they are trying to inure the jury that cohen was not a liked person even in trump world so by the time they encounter him, they are immune to the fact he's not very likable and yet are willing to hear his story because it's already been bolstered by so many of the people they've heard from, whether it be david pecker or keith davidson or maybe some of the witnesses we've yet to hear from including potentially hope hicks. >> what's up next? >> we're still hearing from a

man named doug douse. he's a forensics specialist in the d.a.'s office, and his role here is to authenticate lots of the stuff taken off of cohen's phone. how did it get from cohen's phone into the d.a.'s hand? one of the things i thought was really interesting yesterday was the insinuation by trump's team that the data on cohen's phone could have been manipulated or deleted before it was in the d.a.'s hand. that is a deepstate conspiracy waiting to explode over the weekend, and perhaps engineered, jen, not for the audience of the jurors in this case, but for the larger populous of jurors, aka voters, who might be interested in hearing something that dovetails with trump's frequent refrains of, this is rigged. this is a witch hunt. they've always been out to get me. this is a biden trial, hearing from the fbi could insufficiently protected the state or even worse, manipulated it themselves. that's a narrative that goes

straight into that feedback. >> let's talk about these two audiences here. yes, there's the 12 jurors and the electorates, and playing for them as well, and look. michael cohen, even his friends acknowledge it. a problematic witness and unsavory character, and i and dozens of others reporters used to get threatening phone calls from cohen. we know who he was. >> mm-hmm. >> this is also dated yesterday in particular, such a tawdry display of the up seemliness in this world, and how do you think that's playing to that large audience, those broad voters, particularly, those who might be trying to decide where to vote in november? >> you know, it's a highly unattractive world, and as you said, seemy and kind of salacious and awful, and i think most people watching this might take issue with the question of whether or not this lawyer is an extortionist that doesn't get to

the question of the trial though. that's the falsification of business records as a felony, and so i'm not quite sure which way it -- because i'm curious to ask lisa -- lisa, how do you think it played with at least inside the courtroom and maybe outside of the courtroom because this is really, like, tawdry -- tawdry on steroids, the whole story we heard yesterday. >> it's absolutely tawdry on steroids, and whether or not davidson participated in something with distraction or extortion. to the extent that jurors believe trump lowered himself into this world as opposed to the fact that he might have been floating well above it. that's really the question that the d.a. has to answer. they have to show these people not only that the underbelly of

american gossip existed, but that trump was willing to dive into it with those folks. >> lisa, sam stein here. i'm caught up on the same issue which is if you can't establish that people like keith davidson were actually in direct communication with trump, and it's only established he was talking with michael cohen, isn't that a problem? you say, trump knew of this struff and directed, otherwise what are you hanging this on. >> you're right. you have to show that donald trump knew this stuff and directed it, which is why cohen comes in. david pecker for example, spoke extensively with trump, albeit about karen mcdougal. what we might need to see now is how trump interacted with other people in his orbi even if it's after the fact the payments were made, and acknowledge this stuff happened, and that's why i'm particularly eager to hear from hope hicks. she has previously testified to the house judiciary committee that during the campaign itself

she was not aware of hush money payments and everything she knew about stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, she learned from the press. on the other hand, she refused to testify about any knowledge or involvement she had in these issues once she got to the white house. we're now at a point five years later where executive privilege has been litigated extensively. hope hicks probably cannot rely on executive privilege to get her out of talking about those things now. what i want to know is how did hope hicks go from the campaign to a point in time where david pecker says he talked to her and sarah sanders about whether it was worth extending karen mcdougal's exclusivity arrangement? that means at some point, hope hicks had an understanding that david pecker did pay karen mcdougal. what she might have even discussed with trump himself, i'm really eager to hear in the days to come. coming up, our next guest spent five years as a dean at a major university. retired admiral james stavridis

will weigh in on the protests gripping college campuses nationwide and what president biden had to say about them yesterday. "morning joe" is back in just a moment. sterday. "morning joe" is back in just a moment

the campus of ucla remains orderly this morning following the chaos that we saw play out yet morning. police arrested more than 200 protesters from an encampment. officers in riot gear swarmed the university early yesterday morning. they confronted protesters and dismantled the camp. the clash lasted several hours. police had to launch flares to try to disperse the large crowd. according to the chancellor of ucla, about 300 people did though leave voluntarily. the university called the police earlier in the week after the protests turned violent. fights erupted between

pro-palestinian demonstrators and israeli supporters. ucla then declared the encampment illegal. the chancellor explained the school's decision yesterday kwig, quote, while many protesters at the encampment remained peaceful, ultimately the site became a focal point for serious violence as well as a huge disruption to our campus. meanwhile, president biden as we said earlier, has broken his silence on the unrest at college campuses yesterday in an unscheduled address delivered from the white house. the president condemned the violence and anti-semitism. >> violent protest is not protected. peaceful protest is. it's against the law when violence occurs. destroying property is not against peaceful protest. it's against the law. vandalism, trespassing breaking windows, forcing the cancellation of classes and graduations, none of this is a

peaceful protest. threatening people, intimidating people, instilling fear in people is not peaceful protest. it's against the law. dissent is essential to democracy, but dissent must never lead to disorder, and finish the semester and their college education. it's basically a matter of fairness and a matter of what's right. there's the right to protest, but not the right to cause chaos. let's be clear about this as well. there should be no place on any campus, no place in america for anti-semitism or threats of violence against jewish students. there is no place for hate speech or violence of any kind whether it's anti-semitism, islamaphobia. there's no place for racism in america. it's all wrong. it's un-american. >> while answering reporter questions, the president rejected the idea of deploying

the national guard to quell this unrest. he also said he will not change his policies on the middle east. let's bring in former supreme ally commander of nato, retired four-star admiral james stavridis, and he also spent five years as the dean of the fletcher school of law and university. kind of with that hat on, that we want to speak with you this morning, admiral. when you look at how the president responded and when you look at how police are reacting, do you think the appropriate measures are now being taken on campuses or are administrations going too far in bringing outside law enforcement onto campuses? where do you stand on it? >> i stand in favor of what you just heard when the president of the united states. keyword here, fletcher school of law and diplomacy. we are a nation of laws, and a peaceful protest is fine. look. i spent much of my life in uniform defending the rights of people to protest, of free

speech, of all of our values, but free speech is different than hate speech, and peaceful protest is different than criminal behavior. so i applaud the administrations that i think are doing about as well as you can in this difficult circumstance because you're trying to find a balance here, but when the protests bleed over into overt criminal behavior, you have to react. take them off campus, arrest them, and i would argue, and i say this as a former dean, a simple arrest and release -- catch and release program if you will is not a good idea. these students, if they are students -- by the way, many are not students, they need to receive some kind of sanction from that institution, a suspension or in extreme cases, an expulsion. coming up, our next guest covered president biden's trip to north carolina aboard air

force one. "new york times" chief white house correspondent peter baker joins us with his latest reporting coming up next on "morning joe."

brunson, drive, swing, hart. he connects. huge three. >> toss it in. floats it, throws it up. and it's over! this war of attrition is won by the knicks. >> you just saw josh hart drill the go-ahead three-pointer late in the fourth quarter, and the new york knicks hang on, just barely, to beat the philadelphia 76ers 118-115 in game six last night to advance to the second round of the eastern conference playoffs. jalen brunson, what a star. he led the way once again, finishing with at least 40 points for the third consecutive

game of the series. the knicks now advancing to the conference semifinals in consecutive seasons for the first time in nearly a quarter century, and those knicks will play the pacers in the second-round opener. that will be monday night after the indiana pacers knocked out the milwaukee bucks with a 120-98 win at home last night. frustration set in for the bucks in the final minutes of the game six blowout. milwaukee's patrick beverley, watch this, will most likely face a disciplinary action from the league after an altercation with pacers fans sitting behind the milwaukee bench. beverley was seen twice throwing a basketball at fans hitting at least one in the head. that's going to be a lengthy suspension. i would wager what a disappointment for milwaukee. giannis hurt, didn't play. sam stein, what does that set up? knicks/pacers, and you, my friend, the playoff wars those two teams used to have,

punctuated with reggie miller, pacers hero, giving the choke sign to spike lee and the rest of the knicks fans. this is a fun knicks team. they're a little banged up. they have captivated new york city. what are you looking for in the second round? >> well, i want reggie to put it back on. i want rick smith to be back on the court, you know, got those old-school guys, latrell, maybe, and the best madison square garden atmosphere. i don't know if we'll get that. it's not the same villainous characters, but brunson's incredible. let's just be honest. he should be mvp. he's been a marvel to watch. no, he should be mvp, okay? three straight 40-point games, it's just remarkable, whether you like him or not, it's just wonderful to have good basketball in the garden, playoff basketball in the garden. there's not another atmosphere like it. >> yeah, well, who doesn't like jalen brunson? i mean -- >> i love him. >> he is fabulous. he's -- what a great player. kind of a blue-collar player,

but he's so tricky and so strong. he's got that upper body strength, and he's a scoring machine. i mean, he's amazing. i, you know, i'm a little punchy this morning because i had to stay up and watch that game. it was so exciting. they -- no, because the knicks went way up by 20 points and then here came back the sixers and it was back and forth and you really didn't know until the last five minutes how this was going to work out, but -- but lemire, does it matter? i mean, whoever gets through eventually somebody's going to have to beat your celtics, and they're awfully strong, and then whoever comes out of the east is going to have to play -- beat one of those monster teams from the west. i mean, if you watch the timberwolves, they look amazing, and of course, there's the champs, the nuggets, and does anybody from the east have a chance this year? >> yeah. the celtics are set up well in

the east assuming porzingis comes back at some point. he got injured. they'll get the winner of the cavs/magic game tonight. they dispatched the heat with ease. the western conference is loaded. t-wolves/nuggets is going to be in the finals. the lakers have already gone home. coming up here -- coming up here on "morning joe," we will play for you joe scarborough sitting down with the all-star cast of the new film, "unfrosted" which follows the birth of the iconic pop tart. we'll hear from jerry seinfeld about his directorial debut. that's coming up next on "morning joe." ctorial debut. that's coming up next on "morning joe."

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a beautiful live shot from the top of our building, 30 rock, and a man familiar with nbc is comedy legend jerry seinfeld and he's no strange stranger to assembling an all-star roster of talent, but this may just take the cake. a movie titled "unfrosted" which is dwing today on netflix chronicled the history of the invention of the pop tart. you heard me. the pop tart. it features a star-studded cast including melissa mccarthy, amy schumer, christian slater, jim gaffigan, "new girl" costar, and sarah cooper who you might

remember from these donald trump parodies. >> a person, woman, man, camera, tv. okay, that's very good. if you get it in order, you get extra points. okay. now he's asking you other questions. >> she owned social media there for a stretch in 2020. joe sat down with jerry and some of the "unfrosted" cast to discuss the making of the film and the experience working together. >> i grew up in a time where cereal was king. >> tell us about it. >> crisp versus quake. >> yes. >> you remember that. >> crisp versus quake. that should have been in the movie. >> you have these records on the back. >> yeah. >> it really did -- it really did have a huge cultural impact. >> it tells you why we're a country of obese team. >> we weren't fat then though. everyone was thin in the '60s. i don't know what happened. >> you came one this idea during covid.

>> my friend who wrote the soup nazi -- >> no soup for you! [ laughter ] >> we used to joke for years about doing a movie about the pop tart because i used to talk about the pop tart in my comedy set. >> the biggest food thing to happened to me, when think invented the pop tart, the back of my head blew right off. >> and just as a stupid idea. >> yeah. >> then he said, let's talk about it and another writer from my series was talking with us. he said, why don't we do it like "the right stuff"? when i heard that -- >> you ran. >> i'm in. that's comedy. >> your first directorial bit in a feature film? >> yeah, definitely, but when we were doing the series, larry and i were always directing. >> yeah. >> we weren't moving cameras or doing all the prep and stuff like, that but, you know. >> any trepidation going into it as far as directing or did i

look at other directors and go, i got it? >> i have funny people like this. funny people, it's just -- it's about getting them in a good mood and the fun will just happen, you know. >> sarah --? >> food was great. >> you had a horrible time in. >> it was awful. >> you said this was one of the worst experiences of my life. >> it's one of the worst experiences i've ever had. he made me stand on an apple box for several hours and kept my eyes open. it was really awful. >> that's horrible. >> you know what? it's a good movie, and, you know, if that's what you have to do to get a good movie. >> you say as a director, he was kind of obsessive. he was, like, christopher nolan as far as where you place your hands. >> where you place your hands, where your eyes are, how loud your voice is, how you talk, i mean, this guy. >> i had a great time. >> of course, you did. you want to be in the next movie. >> max had the metal tongs in the toaster. remember that scene? >> must you be so dramatic?

>> i said, okay, max. now you're getting electrocuted, but you're going to fight through it. >> right. it's beautiful. >> and that was one of my favorite -- >> one of your favorite moments? >> most people would let go. i said, no. you're going to fight through. >> so max, what was it like working -- actually playing the rival of a guy that was your idol? it seems to be it would be like any musician getting a chance to jam with paul mccartney? >> i mean, just working with jerry, they had called me and said, you know, you bring up "oppemheimer," and i got a call about it. he said, do you want to audition for "oppemheimer," and i read dummy sides, and i said, no one's going to believe me as a scientist. they go, are you sure? i was, like, no one wants to see this. they called three weeks later and said, do you want to audition for jerry seinfeld's

pop tart movie? 100%. >> all in. and you played the kellogg that would fail. >> yes. >> i played a nepo baby. it was great. i played jerry's boss in the movie which is very similar to our everyday life. i tell him how to do everything. >> and christian, i would not have expected you to be a milk mafia don. >> yeah. there was an element of danger i felt. yeah, elements to the character that were brilliantly written and i like the guy's back story, you know. he's got children. he's got mouths to feed. >> exactly. >> so this guy coming along and creating a thing that doesn't need milk was very upsetting. >> so what was it like, jim, just the people you got to work with? we're joking a lot about "oppemheimer" and christopher nolan and he said,

when you calls, you do it. i would guess and i'm serious here, the same thing, like, jerry seinfeld wants you to be in this movie. >> oh, yeah. no. i definitely wanted to be involved immediately, but to your point, i mean every day it was -- you're, like, oh my gosh. i can't believe this person's coming in, and it's just all these funny people upon funny people and some people, you're, like, how did jerry pull this off? because it is an enormous cast, and it is -- it really kind of covers the spectrum of everyone. >> it's an incredible cast. >> yeah. >> you made light in these politically correct times, right? >> yeah. >> mousse lee knee, jfk. very gutsy. >> it's not to scale, but -- >> what are you guys? 5 years old? little john john draws better than that, and i think there's something wrong with him. >> i'm just curious.

>> yeah. >> how did that writing go? you say, just throw the sign about jfk jr. because everyone's making jokes about him right now. >> that was a bill burr's ad lib. >> i'm not surprised. >> we just loved it and it was really funny. >> it was an ad lib? i didn't know that. >> yeah, he -- it got much worse. he had eleanor roosevelt coming over for a naked swim in that scene, and we couldn't quite put the history of that together, so eleanor roosevelt's coming over and you're going to swim in the nude? what is that called? skinny-dipping? >> what was the part for you that was the most exciting? what did you enjoy the most? >> well, watching the movie was great. i mean, i've watched it many times now, but when we were filming it, just the funeral scene was actually one of my favorites. when i saw the box of kellogg's that said funeral size, that was where, like, i was, like, this movie is brilliant, and it's

just -- it's just punchline after punchline. >> let me ask you. >> yeah. >> where did you come up for the idea for the funeral scene? >> i'll credit andy robin who said full cereal honors. and i thought, well, what would that be? then i came up with, we're going to turn the grave site into a cereal bowl, and then that's why we have -- we killed the guy. there was no reason to kill that guy. >> you just -- >> i just wanted to do the funeral scene to we killed somebody to have a funeral. being a cereal, you know, obsessive, anything that's a hole, i want to put milk and cereal in it. >> anything that's a hole. i just know -- >> which brings us, jim, to the award ceremony -- the awards ceremony, and some of the cereals that did not make it past the first year.

one of them called -- >> grandma's hole. >> grandma's holes. >> i never liked that joke. i didn't like that joke. >> but you laugh at it, right? >> yeah, but it doesn't mean i like it. >> that's some of what's so amazing about this movie is it's -- we're talking about one of a thousand bits and layers and, like, when, you know, we talk about the funeral, there's, like, six different elements that are so absurd. ♪♪ >> he's fruit loops, but like the top of it is a nest for some reason. but that's the detail like that. it's so fun about this movie, but it's thought out and there's a strong point of view with it. >> right. >> that's what i kind of associate with jerry.

it's point of view-driven, not to be all nerdy, but it is. >> what's the strong point of view? >> what's the point of view? >> well, the strong point of view is just in every situation, there's a strong choice made. >> yes. >> and some of it makes sense and some of it intentionally doesn't make sense. >> yes. >> so it's, like -- >> never put the horizon in the center, right? >> right. or it's oddly kind of like this reference of, like, how our culture was okay with that. >> it's, like -- >> it's a strange kind of commentary. >> i love watching movies over and over again. >> sure. >> i just watch them over and over again. this is a movie that i know i'm going to watch five, six, seven times because things move so quickly and i talked about the jfk jr. joke, which 90% of the people we see the first time will probably miss it. you talk about the other things, and it's layer upon layer upon layer, isn't it? >> absolutely. >> it's very deep into a very

peculiar time. >> even the whole milkman thing. >> yes. yes. >> it's not just, like, the milk men are bad. there is a complexity. >> that's right. >> it's fully justified, and at one point, i give a speech explaining big milk. i carry on the influence of, you know, corporations and all this. >> yeah. >> but it all makes sense. >> how did you pitch this? i guess you don't have to pitch anymore. you're, like, hey -- >> no, i do. if you want a big -- if you want a lot of money. i wanted it to be big. just a big hollywood movie. >> and it was. i have to say i heard the concept and one of the things that surprised me, max, was this was, like, a big -- there's a big field of this. you feel like you're in battlefield, michigan in 1963. >> if you look at this -- it's a huge town in michigan with two

gigantic cereal companies that hate each other -- >> yeah. >> it's a perfect comedic setup. >> perfect. >> none of it makes sense, but we all know that it was true. they were in battle creek, michigan. the name of the town is battle creek. >> it writes itself. >> it's a love story. >> it is a love story. >> we even put a love story in it. >> there is a love story. >> but it is also -- it's america's love of sugar. coming up, emmy-winning actor jeff daniels will join us here at the table. we'll talk about his new miniseries streaming right now on netflix. don't miss it. "morning joe" is back in a moment. n't miss it. "morning joe" is back in a moment you'll love this! centrum silver is clinically proven to support memory in older adults. so you can keep saying, you mastered it! you fixed it! you nailed it! you did it! with centrum silver, clinically proven to support

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i don't mean to rush you along, but do you and chris talk about more children at this point? >> we did ivf, and ivf was

really tough on me. i don't think i could ever do ivf again. so i decided that i can't be pregnant ever again. we thought about a surrogate, but i think we're going to hold off for right now. >> comedian amy schumer talking with our own willie geist on "sunday today" back in 2020 about her own difficult pregnancy, and then the decision not to have any more children. schumer's struggles with her pregnancy partly inspired our next guest to use her own expertise to reach out to other women who may be in similar situations. joining us now is "new york times" best-selling author emily austir, and author of the new book "the all in together, lauren leader. great to have you both joining this conversation. emily, let me start with you. why did you write a book at

complications in pregnancy and call it unexpected? >> about a decade ago i wrote a book about uncomplicated pregnancy. in that time, i've had thousands of conversations with women, including amy, about complicated pregnancies. they wanted answers. they wanted to understand why this happened. they wanted data. about 50% of pregnancies involve or end in one of the complications we talked about in the book. so this book is a guide for women navigating incredibly complicated and often grief-stricken experience. >> i myself had two pregnancies that went fine. then i had my third pregnancy and i had to spend three on bedrest, get shots every day, hooked up to monitors. it ended up fine, but it was a long, long period of bedrest and i wasn't the most patient of patients. before that era where there is

so much information on the internet, if i had been in bed for three months able to absorb information on the internet, i suspect that's all i would have done. how has information online changed relationships with doctors when it comes to dealing with complications in pregnancies? >> one of our goals is to help people navigate these conversations. in this world where we have so much information, the question is where we can take what we learn about ourselves and our own preferences and combine it with the expertise our doctors have. you make sure you plan your conversations, that you're thinking about exactly which questions you want to have answered so you can go in and make those conversations productive rather than frustrating from both sides.

>> i had access to incredible health care. that's not the case for millions of american women. when you look at the united states compared to other countries when it comes to maternal health, how are we faring? >> badly. even before the dobbs decision, we were ranked among the worst in terms of outcomes. in states where abortion has been banned or restricted, which is now half of the country, those outcomes are even worse. i was thinking about emily's book and just tohpóu contemplate how many millions of women, there aren't even choices when they face these crises, whether it's because they need a dnc or there's some complication and they can't even show up in

an emergency room and get the care. the backdrop is the florida six-week abortion ban, which is a total ban on abortion in the state of florida. thank goodness arizona repealed their draconian 1864 law. millions of women can't get basic care. >> in your book, you talk about how patients acting as partners with doctors, establishing trust both ways and asking a lot of questions and coming in informed. but when you layer on top of that that people have to worry about whether they're going to be permitted under law to get the care that they need, what do you say to patients about how they process the questions you want to ask your doctor, but also have to have in the back of

your mind for millions of women in america that have these bans, how they ask questions about that. >> it's incredibly complicated. it's already complicated to have this conversation with your doctor and figure out what is best for your care and especially in these situations that those can often involve very, very hard choices. we want people to have all of the choices that they can. when we restrict their choice, we make their care worse and we risk the lives of women in these situations in these states with restrictions on choice. you think the best thing one could advise patients is know the laws in your state and make sure you know what is possible. i mean,bf >> the new book titled "the unexpected, navigating pregnancy during and after complications" is available now. emily oster, thank you very much

for joining us. coming up, the monthly jobs report. dom chu will bring us the numbers straight ahead. and we'll go to the hush-money trial straight ahead on "morning joe." hush-money trial straight ahead on "morng injoe. at bombas, we're obsessed with socks. tees. and underwear. because your basic things should be your best things. one purchased equals one donated. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first order.

economic news. the april jobs report was released moments ago. it shows that the u.s. economy added 175,000 jobs last month. that is lower than the 240,000

economists were expecting. the unemployment rate ticked up to 3.9%. joining us now, stephanie ruhle, peter baker, reverend al sharpton. jen palmieri and lauren leader are also still with us. steph, let's start with you. this came in a little lower than expected, still decent growth. give us your take. >> it's a bad news but good news number. remember what the fed has been trying to do for over=f keep the economy moving, but slow it down because inflation has been a problem. so, yes, the number is lower than expected, but unemployment is still belownñq 4%. we haven't had a run like this in over 40 years.

that is a net positive. what people have been waiting for is for the fed to cut rates. we could get closer to a rate cut. one of the biggest problems out there is inflation. almost everything in our lives from buying a house to renting a house to gas in our car or food at the grocery store all costs a whole lot of money. we're starting to see business slow a bit. americans are starting to say, man, this stuff costs so much money, i either cannot afford it or i will not pay these high prices. you're starting to see a little bit of slowing. that's good news. >> let's talk more about the fed and that possible rate cut. we heard from jerome powell saying,)h

between now and the november election. >> it could. remember, one of the most important parts about the fed, the fed is independent from this white house. something interesting that happened this week, the "wall street journal" reporting that allies close to donald trump have already intimated that if donald trump were to be in the white house, he'd like to have more control over what happens with the fed. the trump campaign didn't deny that. that would be wildly dangerous. you and i could speculate will jerome powell do something. the president would love that to happen, because obviously it will make borrowing cheaper. but the fed t#!#!zg say independent. it's essential. with the jobs number like this and that the fed isn't necessarily concerned that inflation is running away with us at this point, that's good news for/u/u/u see a rate cut. and that's pretty much everyone.

>> let's bring on dom chu. what's your take on these numbers? >> it's being treated for now as this goldilocks scenario, almost like we're back in a bad-news-is-good-news market from a market perspective. job growth is key here. it's just not as robust as it's been since the pandemic. the 175,000 jobs is notably less than the 240,000 consensus. the unemployment rate, yes, it did tick a tenth of a percent higher. average hourly earnings did manage to keep growing. that's a good sign, but wages did grow by two-tenths percent over the previous month

which brings us to a 3.9% duane over last year. that is enough to outpace inflationary pressures, but not enough to lead to more consumer spending that could drive more inflation to a higher level. where the jobs were, there's a shifting dynamic. the biggest gain did come in health care, which added 56,000 jobs. social assistance added 31,000 jobs. those are treated as more defensively. they're not as economically sensitive. meanwhile, transportation and warehousing, 22,000 jobs. retail was around 21,000 jobs. construction added 9,000 positions. thosez9z9z9z9zwzwsy more econom they're starting to scale back some of that job growth. the labor force participation rate didn't change, but that broader measure of unemployment that takes into account underemployment, éá=mp working part-time jobs out of necessity

that want a full-time job, that number did tick slightly higher to 7.4%. that underemployment rate is ticking a little bit higher. from a markets perspective, i mean, you can't really dispute what's going on right now. we did see the stock market rally significantly on the heels of these numbers, and interest rates did drop notably. there's this idea right now that with the current state of play, the fed will not have to raise rates maybe going into the latter part of this year. that's never been consensus, but also there's not much of a reason why they would have to do anything different than what's happening right now. the real issue is going to be whether or not there is a rate cut and at what point. i would note just looking at futures markets tied to interest rates and the fed, there is at least a slight move where some traders are predicting the first interest rate cut,f0

so peter baker, let's put this into political context. i've seen this scientific that the unemployment rate has ? been below 4% for 27 straight months. the last time that happened, richard nixon was in office. that seems like a good news story the biden camp will want to tell. what's your reaction to thesek numbers? do you think this is going to

finally get them to have this message come across? >> the message is steady as she goes. president biden wants to keep that number under 4%. the streak of many months in a row of 4% has been something he brags about on the campaign trail. he talked about the jobs being created on his watch as a major selling point for him. it hasn't necessarily gotten through to the public in the sense that his political numbers have risen in a commensurate way. if these numbers were to go down further or employment go up further, that obviously would be a negative. they want a steady-as-she-goes economic situation head into thj fall. by june, july, whenever the

economy is, that's where the public's head is going to be at coming into fall and time to vote. >> if there were a cut in september, it might be too late to have much impact in november. police and protesters have been facing off across the country. dozens of schools remain on edge as they grapple with heated political demonstrations. this comes as president biden offers his first public comments about the ongoing campus chaos. we have two reports from liz kreutz and peter alexander. >> reporter: outside ucla's royce?záohall, little remains o the pro-palestinian encampment. police made more than 200 arrests after moving in with force, demonstratorsnkív appear

to resist. >> i've never felt more proud of myself or my community. >> reporter: in recent weeks, protests spreading across more than 60 campuses. yesterday a scary scene at portland state university. video showing a car driving towards a pro-palestinian protest. the driver then appearing to spray pepper spray toward the crowd. portland police say a man was detained on a mental health hold. early this morning across the country at the epicenter of the protests, demonstrators gathering outside the hall of columbia university's president just days after the raid on the school's campus documents on newly released police body cam footage. it showed police breaking into occupied hamilton hall and going through the protesters

student activists say the nypd's response was excessive. >> people were nothing but peaceful. >> reporter: the nypd chief of patrol defending the police, writing the actions of the protesters were an abject failure at how civilized people are expected to behave in society while acting like a perpetual victim. of the 282 people arrested at columbia and the city college of new york, the nypd and mayor's office say nearly half were not affiliated with those schools. by nbc's count, more than 2100 arrests have been made nationwide. >> reporter: president biden is now trying to diffuse the ongoing vi >> reporter: the president responding to growing political pressure, walking a fine line between the right to freenvw1peh

and his desire for law and order. >> people have the right to get an education, the right to walk on campus safely without fear of being attacked. >> reporter: later saying he will not call in the national guard and rejecting protesters' demands for changes to his middle east policy. >> have the protests forced you to reconsider any of the policies with regard to the region? >> no. >> reporter: among democrats' concerns, fears of eroding support from younger voters, who would be key to the election this fall. the dnc warning their votes are not to be taken for granted by the democratic party, adding we serve the right to criticize our party when it fails to listen to us. a day after praising the nypd for its crackdown at columbia university, former president trump accusing president biden of being absent on the issue. other republicans have also attacked the president for not responding sooner.

>> what we reallypñ need, thoug is moral clarity and leadership on campus and out of the white house. we have laws on the books that just need to be enforced. >> reporter: in denouncing the violence, president biden said anti-semitism has no place in america and is set to deliver a speech on that topic during a holocaust memorial ceremony next week. >> peter, the president's now spoken out. how much of an electoral issue problem does the campaign think this could still be in november? >> if you listen to democratic strategists, they're telling you, yes, obviously the pictures on the screen are not great, but that younger voters actually tell pollsters this is not the 4them. the number one issue for them would be like abortion rights and the economy, issues other than gaza. people who are loud and visible are not necessarily representative of the generation

at large. he needs the vote from the under-30 crowd to offset votes from older americans. that was key in 2020. if he doesn't have that vote this fall, if you lose that energy, thaá's a real concern for the campaign. >> rev, the president is in a tricky spot here. to peter's point, he doesn't want these scenes of chaos to unsettle independent voters, older voters. that said, there are young voters who feel very passionately by what happened in gaza and were upset by the police tactics. the manhattan d.a. confirmed an nypd officer fired a gunshot inside hamilton hall while clearing those protesters.

imagine what would happen if that bullet05q. hit a college student. >> first of all, we certainly need a thorough investigation on why this officer's gun went off and why was it even drawn. i think we must distinguish between students who have been non-violently raising an issue that we're all concerned about about what is going on in gaza and the fact that we ought to have humanitarian aid there and that netanyahu is out of bounds. between those students and some that are coming in raising violence and anti-semitic and other hate language, i think ro ror make. there are students in columbia and other places where for days, weeks before we had any of this, and i think we can't lump them all together. secondly, the politics of

this -- and you've heard me say this before÷i.& -- is the rightl wrongly try to act like, see, they're violent and they talk about january 6th. first of all, january 6th and the violence here is not the same thing. i'm saying they will compare it. the violence of january 6th was to stop the certification of an election and overthrow the government. the violence we saw, which was nowhere near the violence we saw january 6th at columbia or at ucla was nowhere near that, but we must condemn all violence. you can't have it both ways. violence, whether it's a little bit or a large amount is violence. it must be denounced. but those youngsters, students that non-violently protested ought to be saluted for what this country stands for. that is the right to speech, the

righto and many of us would have joined them, because netanyahu is wrong in what he's doing in gaza. >> the student protesters we've seen at columbia and ucla are not doing any favors to the cause of the palestinian people in terms of impacting public opinion in the u.s. it said on the chalkboard, "political power comes from the barrel of a gun." political power on the left doesn't a gun. fortunately, no one was hurt in columbia. fortunately, there were no serious injuries at ucla either. this is shaping up to be a good leadership moment from the

president.wi&p rrz sure there at aren't happy that schools are shut down and they're not going to have graduation ceremonies. biden is the center of the country, and he should not get too tangled up worrying about what young people are thinking 'r thiskxkxkxkxkxkxkxkxkxkxkxkxi what should be the approach? >> we still continue to discount what is a very serious problem that jewish faculty and jewish students continue to face which

is not about disruption, it's about they're being barred from attending classes. i think the other thing that's concerning, there's a new lawsuit filed just yesterday on behalf of victims october 7th making the connection between the terrorist operations in the middle east and a couple of key groups that have been on campus that are outside groups. i think these outside agitators are well funded by hamas-oriented groups.

we're going to learn from this lawsuit the extent to which they have infiltrated campuses and also the propaganda. everyone agrees no one wants to see unnecessary suffering of anyone anywhere. on the other hand, kids wearing hamas flags on their foreheads, that is off the charts in terms of infiltration. i think the universities have an obligation to protect their jewish students and faculty. my cousin who is a faculty member can't even go near the campus. this is not okay. there are victims here. even in these peaceful protests, you know, words can be violent too. if you are a jewish student on campus today who believes in the right of israel to self-determination, it is an incredibly difficult time.

>> all students deserve to be able to attend their studies peacefully. tuesday's speech is an increasingly important one for president biden. coming up just moments from now, donald trump is dueack in a new york city courtroom as his hush-money trial resumes. we'll get a live report from outside the courthouse in lower manhattan. plus, award-winning actor jeff daniels will join us to discuss his new netflix mini series called "a man in full." "morning joe" will be right back. "morning joe" will be right back start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand.

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all of us have a stake in rebuilding the great american middle class, creating ladders into it from the underclass and restoring the reward for working hard and playing by the rules. if the rules have changed because of technology advancing, because of robo competitors,

then this nation has a moral obligation to help all americans who are willing to work hard prosper under the new rules. if this society is to reverse the long-term decline in living standards of american workers, a far builder strategy is necessary. >> that was former labor secretary robert reish back in 1994 warning of a two-tiered society. joining us tom rogers. tom's latest piece is titled "a masterclass in not treating the working class as second class." congrats on the book. let's start right there. tell us a little bit about what you mean. what's the thesis here? >> i started to notice that

despite the fact we talk about political polarization, americans are not divided left versus right, but there is a real class divide emerging in american between the working class and the elites. i want to understand more deeply who is the american working class, and do they still have a fair shot at the american dream. i traveled the country and interviewed many, many working class people from all races and from many, many industries and from all political persuasions. whether these working class people vote for democrats or americans, they agree by and large on all of the issues. >> i've been nodding along vigorously. i think about this all the time. i went to the springsteen archives music honors awards

last week. they honored john mellencamp, "pink houses" 30 years ago and secretary rice 30 years ago talking about how we didn't compensate from the jobs that were lost. democrats are still paying a big price for that. and trump rallies, i talk to people. there's not a lot of difference on the issues. it's about respect. your book talks about solutions, policies that would make a difference or even just attitudes perhaps that could make a difference as well. >> absolutely. the first half of the book are deep, in-depth profiles of working class americans from across the political spectrum, what issues matter to them and what they need to help them access the american dream to get back into the middle class. the second half of the book is a series of totally nonpartisan,

easily implementable solutions that would immediately improve the lives of working class americans and give them back the dignity that the democrats used to represent, the dignity of hard work. >> what is the message here? president biden was the can't in -- candidate in 2020 that seemed to represent that working class, but we're still seeing a slow erosion of that support, whether it's about a donald trump phenomenon or more about the democratic party, how can biden reverse that? >> that's a very key question for this election. what is very clear to me is that the working class is totally focused on their personal economic situation. you really have to perceive what you need to do to break through

and attract that middle working class based on that. for the most part, biden is in sync with an awful lot of their concerns. health care comes through hugely in the book and very much becomes a biden issue, one that the republicans don't score on at all. but the one where democrats and biden really fall short is immigration. it's not because there's a kind of trump racist view of immigrants polluting white culture. it's not that at all. they view immigration as real economic competition, undermining job opportunity and wage growth. there seems to be an incredible passivity perceived on their part in terms of democrats addressing that and the fact that the house blew up a bipartisan bill that would have gone to deal with a lot of this issue is a good talking point, but the talking point doesn't

really seem to change perception. there needs to be a much more muscular response out of the biden administration that shows they're going to address this even in the absence of legislation that should have passed. >> when i listen to you talk and read the book, isn't it also a challenge that we get past the things that have divided the working class so there's not a united approach to this? i remember when i was a kid, 13 years old, just joining dr. king's chapter in new york, he was trying to do a poor people's campaign. he was killed before he could get to washington with it. 20 years later, jesse jackson tried to do it with the rainbow coalition. isn't it part of the trick of those to pit people against each other? well, blacks have your jobs or immigrants or latinos or women,

rather than seeing a common need to come together against those that exploit and exclude all of us. >> 100%. i thought about dr. king so much while writing this book. dr. king appealed to the common humanity in all americans. and by doing so, he was able to bring the nation along to a place that maybe we weren't at the time. right now you have a situation where the elites foment that division exactly like you say, because they get a lot of power out of doing that when the truth is that 70% of americans who are working class and middle class agree on the issues. they agree on affordable, dignified health care. the first party to get to that place of strong immigration control and expanded health care access is going to have a ruling majority, i believe.

>> i think the issue that immigration really highlights is, like protests regarding what's going on in israel, like inflation, it is also a proxy for things seeming out of control and the working class feeling as if there's just too much that isn't being dealt with that suggests their lives aren't in the kind of control they'd like to see. not addressing immigration and being passive on that issue really contributes to that. unfortunately, when people feel things are out of control, we know from history that's when authoritative people have appeal. >> thank you both. katty kay, such an important conversation, one that really shapes today's politics. >> super important and super

hard for the white house, it seems, to try and get its hands around it. i was struck by one thing the president said about japan and india where he called them xenophobic. >> we've seen repeatedly campaign joe seems to make problems for foreign policy joe. but he's right that we're different from a lot of other countries that aren't open to immigration. but the case has to be made economically, the fact that we need immigrants in order to do jobs that frankly otherwise would be unfilled in order to keep the economy moving and the population growing.

we're have an issue with population beginning to taper off without the influx of people we've historically had. those are issues he has to be able to explain to the american people if he wants to get progress on immigration. >> there are areas in the country where there are a lot of immigrants, whether legal or illegal, and the economy seems to do better, so there is an argument to be made. coming up, award-winning actor jeff daniels is live in studio for his new miniseries "a man in full." "morning joe" will be right back. "morning joe" will be right back nice to meet ya. my name is david. i've been a pharmacist for 44 years. when i have customers come in and ask for something for memory, i recommend prevagen. number one, because it's effective.

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it's a beautiful... ...day to fly. wooooo! charlie is the biggest hero of reality in atlanta. the problem is, he's going

bankrupt. >> party's over. >> you want to take your shot? you better make it your best one. >> i'm not sure who the hell you think you're talking to. >> i'm talking to a [ bleep ] head. >> we all just burst out laughing at that. that was the trailer for the new netflix series titled "a man in full" which is based on the book by tom wolf of the same name. he is a larger-than-life figure who finds his empire billions of dollars in debt and will do just about anything to stay an top and survive. joining us is emmy-award-winning

actor jeff daniels. i remember the book. it resonated at the time. it does again now. what drew you to the part? >> tom wolf wrote the book in the late '90s. he was ahead of his time, because it's still relevant today. it dealt with and the show deals with a lot of different things all at once. i think that's one of the things that made his writing so great. there's racial injustice, political corruption, larger-than-life too-big-to fail in there. wolf was exceptional at weaving several different themes and storylines together. i said, okay, i'm in. >> i watched the first two episodes and then i had to go to sleep because we get up really

early here. it was really great. i don't remember at the time was "a man in full" meant to be a southern donald trump? you pick the role now understanding the obvious comparison. >> i didn't think that far ahead. when i said yes, i said yes for different reasons, the people involved and the fact that i had no clue how to pull this off. the book was written in the '90s based on two or three guys in atlanta. trump had nothing to do with it, which will disappoint trump, but he had nothing to do with this. that is what tom did. i kind of know the names of a couple of them. those are real guys. it's not just today with trump, who basically fits the profile of charlie croaker.

the theme of when men were men and everyone else is inferior is part of what the show is about. i never really factored him in. the fact that we updated it to now and upped the numbers that charlie croaker owes the bank is what makes it similar to donald's financial difficulties. >> jeff, even though tom wolf may not have seen donald trump coming to where he is now and you didn't pick to do this role because of that, you couldn't help but say this whole question of narcissism and self-indulgence and all is part of the theme of this and croaker's story. when you walk away from watching the series, people kind of understand that that becomes self-destructive the more self-obsessed you become. >> correct. that's kind of what happens in

this particular show. it doesn't end well for charlie. it's not ending well for trump either. maybe the moral might be let's find a different way to be. i think that's part of what the show says, is that we're better than this. we're better than charlie croaker thinking we're better than everyone simply because we used a lot of other people's money to become famous and important. the whole political situation we're in right now, the normalization of greed and power and vulgarity and dishonesty and fraud and gaslighting, we normalize that. >> we were talking about the connection this has to today's politics. also class is a big part of this story and a big part of this election. michigan, the state you're from, might even be the tipping point

state this time around. how do you see all of these issues, including class, shaping how voters go to the polls in what's going to be a very tight race? >> class, yes. what stretches over class is decency and honesty and values and principles. we live in the midwest. we don't necessarily take new york and l.a. as seriously as new york and l.a. takes itself. i hate to tell you. we're flyover country, and we've got a chip on our shoulder about that. we're not as stupid as people like trump, in particular, think we are. he talks down to us. he talks past us. he lies to us. it's really not the people on the right. they're going to stay there. okay, terrific. class or no class, they're going to stay there. the left is going to stay on the left. it's that 20% or 15% in the

middle who are going, i'm over trump, maybe nikki haley, get me somebody. basically, i think, even the middle of the country, even michigan is watching the republican party destroy itself. there are two wars going on i see. i see the war within the republican party, which we're all standing back going knock yourselves out. then there's the war on democracy that's going on right now. it's on the internet, on social media, on people not listening anymore. that war is going to culminate in november. i'm cautiously optimistic that the people in the middle, the people in states like michigan are going to go, you know what, we're better than this, i'm going to vote for biden even though he's old, which also translates into wise and wisdom, which we may need right now, because the election i really

want to vote on is the one in 2028. >> speaking of decency, big triggers in american politics, you did atticus finch on broadway. these are big figures in american fiction. what are you taking away from it? >> let's imagine charlie croaker sitting down with atticus finch and their waiter is harry dunn from "dumb & dumber." let's all imagine that. one of the great things about playing atticus finch was his devotion to the rule of law. there are things that are bigger than us. atticus finch knew that the rule of law was bigger than us, that the united states government is

bigger, that the office of the presidency is bigger. you're just there temporarily. we've lost that. trump has lost that. there's nothing bigger than donald trump. i think the country and i hope the electorate will say, we need people who are better than us, who revere and respect these institutions and things like the rule of law. let's get back to that and maybe then we can all ourselves the greatest country in the world, maybe. >> we have covered a lot of ground here. jeff daniels, thank you very much. coming up next, donald trump is back in court for day 11 of his criminal hush-money trial trial. we'll have a live report from outside the manhattan courthouse when "morning joe" comes back. .

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forensics expert for the manhattan d.a.'s office. an incredibly important witness despite the fact that obviously he's not a major name and one of the witnesses we had been looking out for. much of the evidence that has been submitted so far is transcripts. it's coming from cell phones. it's text messages. it's email exchanges as well. this is kind of drill down on how it is they came upon much of this evidence that has been submitted by the prosecution, by the manhattan d.a.'s office. expectations for later on today, there is a possibility -- and we know this individual well -- that hope hicks could, in fact, take the stand that. is a possibility. a close adviser to the former president. she was with him up until the election in 2016, remained a close adviser inside the white house as well.

their relationship frayed a little bit after 2022 when she testified after the events leading up to and on january 6th, although we know that she remains very loyal to the trump family, very loyal to the former president as well despite this kind of fraying relationship. some of what we heard about hope hicks so far that may come up in her testimony, if she, in fact, does take the stand, she knew about that access hollywood tape. there was some back and forth this morning as to whether or not once again they could submit the access hollywood tape, the transcript of it as evidence. judge juan merchan has already said i've ruled on that. that will, in fact, be submitted. the prosecution wants to set up a time line there. hope hicks was part of the advisory team advising when that access hollywood tape came out and making sure they dealt with the fallout from that. we understood there was email exchanges between hope hicks, michael cohen as well. she was part of that infamous trump tower 2015 meeting with david pecker where he would be the eyes and the ears of negative stories for donald

trump. so certainly hope hicks will play a major part in building this entire story and time line, jonathan, for the prosecution if she takes that stand. >> nbc's yasmin vossoughian, thank you, we'll be checking back with you all day long. of course we'll have complete coverage of the ongoing criminal trial of former president donald j. trump. that does it for us this morning. thank you for watching today and all week long. we will see you bright and early monday morning, 6:00 a.m. eastern. the next "morning joe." ana cabrera picks up msnbc's coverage after a quick final break. eak.

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