have. >> we would like to congratulate miss testerman and all of the state teachers of the year. you truly are the backbone of our nation and we thank you for your hard work and dedication to our children. on that beautiful note, i wish you a very good night. be sure to tune in tomorrow, because it's friday and our nightcap. if you miss it, catch it again saturday at 11:00 eastern right here on msnbc. for now, signing off. from all of our colleagues, thank you for joining us. we will see you tomorrow. tomor good evening from washington, d.c. i'm jen psaki. chris hayes has the night off.

donald trump is back in court this morning for day 10 of your county, of his criminal trial. today's proceedings began with another hearing on the repeated, i mean repeated, violations of his gag order. will talk about that a little later. things got interesting once keep davidson return to the stand. the former lawyer for both of the women trump is accused of paying off, karen mcdougal and stormy daniels. from the witness stand, davidson pulled back the curtain on the 2018 statement he wrote on behave of daniels. seeming to deny her affair with trump. he admitted with trump's sitting in front of him, that the stormy daniels statement was designed to look like a denial. it was a nondenial denial you could say. the statement read, quote, i recently became aware that certain news outlets are alleging i had a sexual and/or romantic affair with donald trump many years ago.

i am stating with complete clarity that this is absolutely false. it's a strange part of the statement. davidson used particularly lawyerly language, if i may say so, to parse why he believed that statement to be true. saying, quote, i don't think anyone had ever alleged any interaction between daniels and trump was romantic. look, i've written a lot of statements in my time. not about the sort of thing, but despite the, we were friends of benefits of davidson's answers, the interesting part, to me, is there was no outright denial of what happened or who was attempt to cover it up. he testified it was his understanding that trumpian daniels did indeed have a bit of a thing going on. later in the afternoon, jury heard audio of michael cohen in the form of a previously released recording of a phone call where cohen and trump discuss paying off macdougall

to cover that affair including cohen discussing financing and trump seeming to confirm the $150,000 amount. we knew the recording was out there, but today, the jury got to hear donald trump in his own voice. >> is spoken to allen weisselberg about how to set the whole thing up with -- >> so what do we got -- >> -- funding. yes, it's all the stuff. i'm all over that. and i spoke to alan about a. when it comes time for the financing >> watch financing? >> will have to pay -- no, no. >> a check. pretty specific. the jury heard a recording between cohen and keith davidson regarding stormy daniels. in this recording we did not know about before today. >> nobody is thinking about

michael. despite what, for example, the earlier conversation, you know, and who was with do that for somebody? who else? >> yeah. >> i did because i care about the guy. and i wasn't going to play penny wise and pound foolish. >> right. >> right. and i'm sitting there and i'm saying to myself, what about me? >> yeah. >> what about me? i can't tell you how many times he said to me, i hate the fact that we did it. and my comment to him was, every person you have spoken to told you it was the right move. >> right. >> that was a lot of michael cohen and a little bit of keith davidson.

davidson said he understood that he referred to trump and we did it referred to the payment to daniels. couldn't be more clear than that. the entire argument being made by the defenses trump knew nothing about these payments. michael cohen went completely rogue when he played -- paid these women that no one can explain except trump. the evidence seemed to fly in the face of the notion this happen without her's knowledge. something michael cohen will likely attest to when he takes the stand later. we are expecting to hear from others is to trump including his aide hope hicks who were on some of these calls and could provide amount of new evidence. lisa rubin is a legal correspondent inside the courthouse today. george conway his attorney and contributing writer at the atlantic where he is covering the trials. mary spent time is say federal prosecutor where she served as chief of the criminal division and cohost the excellent, and

form winning podcast. lisa, you were at the trial today. tell us what it was like there today. what was it like when they heard these recordings for the first time? >> we heard a lot of recordings for the first time. the two you just mentioned, and then there were others the defense admitted because they say they demonstrate that keith davidson was a person not to be trusted. that he was playing games with the stormy daniels story and by the spring 2018 when michael avenatti took over stormy daniels' case, he was effectively saying to people, you know this is all what my grandmother would call -- and she knows this is [ speaking in a global language ]. this story is not true. the defense tried to get davidson to say it was his own understanding of the story, which you would not.

of those calls, the one that had the most impact, even though trump's voice was not on it, was the one about stormy daniels for a couple of reasons. the falsification of the business records that comprises the actual crime charged is not about karen mcdougal. it is about stormy daniels. the second part is that michael cohen and keith davidson had that conversation in the fall of 2017 before michael cohen himself really went rogue and broke from trump world. to hear michael cohen say in his voice, nobody is worried about me, but i can't tell you how many times he and i talked about the fact he hated wheat to the settlement, and yet everyone around him consistently told him it was the right thing to do. that demonstrates the people within the cone of knowledge might not have just been cohen and david pecker and davidson and trump. potentially others as well.

at least by the fall of 2017, even if they didn't know so when realtime. that was the call to me they had the most impact. i am interested to see, as this goes on, whether we will hear further recordings that cohen made on his own and/or that of the participants may have made. the prosecution has said all along, you think this case is about michael cohen, but really, you are going to see a whole lot of evidence that you did not expect. we will show you paper, email, text messages, and recordings. sure enough, that's what they have done. >> yeah, that recording, hate the fact we did have. michael cohen repeating something trump said to him and struck me as significant and we had not heard of before. there may be many more things we hear. what struck you george? >> that struck me. i saw people commenting that the defense may have thought it was helpful, but i cannot see that. it's like having two bring grabbers and they robbed the bank and then one bank robber

says to somebody else, my co- conspirator michael bank robber, the one who drove the getaway car kind of regrets we did that. you shouldn't have robbed the bank. that does not help the defense. the other thing is, again, as lisa pointed out, the timing. this is when cohen was not only in trump's good graces but was sacked staying -- acting for the benefit and direction of individual number 1, donald trump. >> we were talking earlier before we came unsaid, about what they are trying to do, the prosecution, to set this up for michael cohen's testimony. he has credibility issues which we have spoken about. that's part of the defense's line of argument. what were they trying to do today with playing some of these recordings and putting questioning out there?

>> credibility issues are an understatement. they are doing a couple things. they will corroborate every possible way they can through texts, emails, through recordings, cooperate in advance the things they expect him to say. they are trying to take the sting out of the bad stuff. they are not shying away from painting him as somebody, frankly, no one seemed to like. people of testified so far including mr. davidson, didn't have nice things to say about cohen. they thought he was aggressive and put pressure on people and was nasty, and things like that. they want to get the jury comfortable with this so that's not a new thing by the time he takes the stand, so they can focus on what he's testifying to and how it's been corroborated by the evidence. >> the psychology is a

nonlawyer is interesting. this may not have been the most important part of today, but i thought keith davidson parsing his words when discussing the denial he wrote for stormy daniels, i don't know, it felt odd. but i'm sure there was strategy to it. >> first of all, when i was thinking of keith davidson on the stand explaining how he thought those statements were factually accurate, even though anyone could see on the face how misleading they were. this is why normal people hate lawyers. we do things like this. >> yes. >> it's why people make lawyer jokes. keith davidson had a reasonable explanation. he had a client who was chomping at the bit to exploit some of the notoriety she was getting, and at the same time she took seriously the fact that the agreement she had had liquidated damages clause that meant if he/she reach the confidentiality part of the

agreement, she could have to pay $1 million for each violation. he was trying to titrate between a client who wanted to be in the public eye, and mitigating risk for her. that is how we chose to do it. from that standpoint, the obnoxiousness of keith davidson trying to be like, this is what i did and it was too cute by half and i did it. it's more sympathetic in the eye, and whether the jury will take that, i'm not sure. i think the prosecution is doing an overall good job situating this story, and the seeming of some of the people involved. they do not have to like these folks. they just have to believe they are telling the truth about the ultimate, allege bad guy, the former president of the united states. >> we have to take a break, but i've been wondering what you thought of this. trump, quote, contrary to the fake news media, do not fall asleep during the crooked das witch-hunt, especially not

today. i simply close my beautiful blue eyes, sometimes, listen intently, and take it all in. george conway? >> that is perfect donald trump. his reputation has been in the past that he is sleepy donnal. i have talking to journalists who have written books about him and back in the day, he never showed up in the office at trump tower before 11:00 a.m. or ever, apparently. we know what he did at the white house. he was not there in the morning. he was not an early riser and read his briefing books. this is rough on him. he's got to get up early every morning. and he's not free to fly around the country like we are. >> there is the for a reason. we are going to discuss the gag order. we have to take a quick break and we will be right back. bac. . now there's an easier-to-use at home skin tag remover, clinically proven to remove skin tags

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donald trump was in court for half an hour before the jewelry for another hearing to determine if he violated his gag order. we've done this a few times. they flag four incidents on tampa trump talking about witnesses and the jury. here's a sampling. >> they're gonna look at all the lies -- he got caught lying in the last trial. he got caught lying. pure lying. >> that jury was pick so fast. 95% democrats. the area mostly all democrats.

you think of it as a purely democrat area. >> an one is a convicted liar and has no credibility. he was a lawyer, and you rely on your lawyer, but he was a convicted liar. >> he has been very nice. a nice guy. >> remember, $9000 check, that's a lot of money, for social media post the judge violated his order. while the judge warned that jail time could be a consequence, prosecutors said today they are not seeking that penalty, at least not yet. with me, lisa rubin, george conway and mary. i can't imagine how many time you get as this. why can't they put him in jail? the prosecutors don't want that right now. why not? >> the prosecutor said they had moved -- he had not been warned

yet by judge merchan on tuesday that the next consequence might be jail, at the time they move to hold him in contempt. that wouldn't necessarily change what the judge could do, because it's the statute that says what the judge can do. he can be given up to $1000 per incident are incarcerated for up to 30 days. the prosecutor said he was not on notice and this is his last chance at the time we brought these. they said it's disruptive and we are trying to not be disruptive. i think what they also think as this would make donald trump more of a murder. >> that's why i was wondering if that was the calculus for the prosecutors. >> i think they have to be thinking that. donald trump doesn't want to spend a night or two in a cellblock but prosecutors don't really want to have that happening in the middle of this

trial with him getting a lot of people thinking this is a weaponize justice system, et cetera. >> lisa, you were in the courtroom but you were outside the courthouse every day telling us what's happening. what happened in the hearing? and for those of us trying to stay up with this, why doesn't the judge ruled in the moment, you violated this. this is what you have to pay. >> i think he expects all accounts with respect to the gag order, trump lawyers will seek an appeal. he wants to reduce his decision to writing so other judges have the benefit of seeing his decisions. he is trying to be as fair and delivered as a can. there's one other facet which is in the last order, he basically said, if there are witnesses that use the gag order as a sword and shield, that will be a consideration for him as he weighs whether

there are further violations. today, todd blanche brought up social media post by michael cohen in the last couple of weeks including a couple on april 22, april 23, which are the same dates as some of the statements donald trump made about cohen.'s point was, my client is responding to political attacks on him by michael cohen. i think judge merchan is weighing what to do about that to ensure that people need to be protected are protected, and considering, to what the participants in the process need to be subjected to the gag order to ensure the fair administration of justice. >> not the only one attacking. george, we tried to get into the mind of donald trump and i think you have been deepest in their. >> thanks. >> -- >> i do think it's a compliment. >> the psychology of trump. this is not a normal person worried about consequences. does he want to be reprimanded?

is this the goal? >> i don't think he thinks that strategically. he just ask the weight narcissists are basically program. specifically narcissistic sociopaths. you all hear psychologist talk about narcissistic abusers. with a set of victims is, look what you made me do to your. that is what he does. he did it to the country for several years and is doing it to the judge and the witnesses. he is just doing -- it's the reptilian instinct of his. what the judge has to do, impose fines of 2000, 3000, 4000 and say this is it. now we have gone through this twice. the next time they come back, anything similar to what i hate you for with these fines, you will spend an hour on the bus

going to rikers. >> reptilian. >> unfortunately they closed the tomb. maybe they have a holding cell. >> you alluded to this, the statute. 2003, 3000, the judge said i wish it could be more. what is the possibility in terms of financial fines. 9000 is a lot for most but maybe not donald trump? >> this is the problem of the statute. $1000 per violation. he could rack up a lot of violations, but it would take a lot for it to be a number that would feel pain to donald trump. and that's what judge merchan recognized in his written order tuesday. this might mean a lot to some people, but once somebody has wealth, like mr. trump, this might not be meaningful. that's why i may need to consider other things like incarceration. the incarceration is for a 230

days. it was not a condition of his release for which the release could be revoked for violating the gag order. these are separate criminal contempt proceedings within a civil case they have their own penalty. >> he's going to keep attacking people as are other people around him. lisa referenced maybe others should be under gag order. what happens next? >> he will violated again and judge merchan will be facing a difficult decision about whether to put him in the clink for a little while. i think what he's got to do is he has to make clear when he issues his ruling on the current motion that this is going to happen. i wouldn't put him in 30 days, but i would remand him for at least an hour two to show, we can do this to you. he will go out and play the victim again. i've got to say, the record is going to be, he is defying in

challenging the court to do that. when it comes to people like trump, you do in the end have to show them they have consequences. the way they get away with things as they are so difficult, they are so annoying, that you, oh, gut , but you have to. >> that is the point. lisa rubin, george conway, i'm jen psaki. , thank you for joining me. a tale of two governor's desk kristi noem tries to talk her way out of one of the least sympathetic scandals. katie hobbs signs a bill removing arizona's taccone and abortion restriction, and she joins me next. t.

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today, arizona governor katie hobbs signed a bill repealing a seville -- civil war arab law that would -- all abortions. they ignited a furious backlash across the state and country. the repeal bill made it to the governor's desk after two republicans voted with all democrats in the senate. there is fine print that women in arizona should be aware of. the law is expected to take a pack for period of time beginning june 27. the repeal cannot do into effect until 90 days after the legislative session concludes which is likely july. at that point, arizona would

revert to a 15 week ban passed in 2022. abortion advocates are focusing on a proposed ballot measure which would enshrine a fundamental right to abortion in the state constitution. that's expected to be on the ballot in november. joining me as governor katie hobbs. thank you for taking the time. the repeal bill is a big step, but as i tried to outline and correct me if i got it wrong, it means it's a little complicated. what should women in arizona know where their reproductive rights stand? >> you are right. it is complicated. even though today is a big moment to celebrate and a huge victory for reproductive freedom in arizona, the fight is so far from over. last week, we stood up a website, reproductive health.ac.gov so arizonans

could get clarification on what is happening. what laws are in effect regarding the reproductive health care. where they can find resources and the health care they need. that does not solve the problem that the ban might be in effect, and i think the confusion that is created from this is why we need to pass the ballot measure in november so we never have to face this kind of ban whether a ban from 1864 or banned from 2022 that has no exceptions or complications of pregnancy. folks can join it for -- >> i'm sure people have lots of questions. i wanted to ask about the constitutional amendment. organizers have enough signatures. this would be a huge step forward in protecting this right for women in arizona. i often think it's

underestimated what a driving issue this is for people. what do you think -- what effect do you think it will have on voter turnout? >> i saw over the last few weeks , after the supreme court of arizona upheld this 1864 draconian ban fear, confusion, chaos, and there's outrage. it's an issue that will motivate voters up and down the ballot. certainly, abortion accesses on the ballot in november in arizona. not only is this measure going to be on the ballot, but the chance to vote for legislators who respect reproductive freedom , the republicans have voted with the democrats on this repeal did it out of political convenience. they did it because they saw the political consequences. it's not because they support

reproductive freedom. >> that's an important thing to remember. i want to ask about kari lake. you ran against her and defeated her. she is a shape shifter on this issue. what do you make of that? you know her well and her positions. what do you make of it? >> it is political opportunism. the folks who celebrated dobbs, the folks who, when it wasn't in effect said this is great mac. like kari lake said. now they are backtracking because it's politically inconvenient. the cost is going to be very high. it's not genuine, for sure. >> you reference this and you won by under 20,000 votes. the attorney general won by a couple hundred votes. it's a reminder of how important down ballot races

are. are the rather racist that should be front and center for people in arizona they should take mind of? it's a state's rights issue which is baloney. >> absolutely. every legislator in arizona is on the ballot in november. this ballot measure will be on that. we have congressional races that could potentially flip and make a difference in congress. while we are fighting this battle in the states right now, it is imperative that we protect abortion at the national level, and we will need a congress and senate willing to do that. >> governor katie hobbs, such an important issue and a lot happening in your stay. i appreciate you making the time to join me. still to come. why won't south dakota governor kristi noem let sleeping dogs lie?

like her late dog cricket. she can't stop digging. diggin

okay. you have probably heard that south dakota governor kristi noem not only shot and killed her own puppy, but, she decided it warranted a spot in her book meaning she liked the story so much she thought it said

something flattering about her. if that was not bizarre and pretty disturbing enough, part of her cleanup effort has involved quite an evolution of her description of poor cricket the dog. let's start with how noem described this innocent 14- month-old puppy in the expert a book that was obtained by reporters six days ago. she took the young pup on a hunt with older dogs were cricket went, quote, out of her mind with excitement, chasing, sports and having the time of her life. it sounds pretty cute, like a 14-month-old puppy. that's what they do. on the way home she writes, cricket hopped out of the truck and excitedly killed their chickens. she says and wields around what she might bite noem. what did kristi noem do? she took her to a gravel pit and shot her, obviously. pretty extreme reaction to an excitable puppy. after a couple days where the bipartisan dog loving

criticism, she began to alter her description of cricket. two days after, she came out with a post in a post saying, quote, given that cricket she has shown aggressive behavior by biting people, decided what i did. okay. fast forward to last night and she revised her book manuscript again, this time on fox news with a little editing help from none other than sean hannity. >> this was a working dog. it was not a puppy. it was a dog that was extremely dangerous. it came to us from a family who found her too aggressive. we were her second chance, and she was -- the day she was put down is a day she massacred livestock that were part of our neighbors. she attacked me. >> i was shocked when we learn that joe biden, he has a german shepherd, that when all is said and done, 24 secret service agents were bitten by a german

shepherd. in that case, if somebody is biting people in large numbers like that, it's sad thing to do, but at some point, doesn't it become the responsible thing for the safety of others that you do not allow a dog, at least around anybody else at the very least. >> joe biden did not shoot his dog when a bit some people. that's not what you do. let's get back to kristi noem. in five days, the puppy who was described as out of her mind with excitement all of a sudden became a dangerous and aggressive dog who massacred livestock. that's quite an evolution of a description. if you're thinking like most sane people, that's crazy. no one would believe her story a happy puppy into a modern-day killer puppy. you would be mistaken. >> the only thing i can say is

at least she did not eat the dog. >> she shot the dog and obama eight at. what is worse? >> for all the outrage from dog lovers of all political stripes, she is still headlining republican fundraisers in florida and colorado. if you want to bring your dog my advice is i advise keeping them on a leash.

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over 200 protesters were arrested at ucla this morning as police moved to break a pro- palestinian encampment. most of those arrested or charged with misdemeanors, unlawful assembly, and release. protesters were arrested at dartmouth college bringing the total number of rsa campus protest to 2100. embed those president biden gave brief remarks this morning stressing the need for them to remain peaceful. >> we are not an authoritarian nation where we silence people are squash dissent. the american people are heard. peaceful protest is in the best tradition of how americans respond to consequential issues, but, but, neither are we a lawless country. we are a civil society and order must prevail. >> joining me, opinion editor for the washington post, tim miller, former spokesperson for

the rnc and now a writer at large and cornell. did you like that introduction? there's a lot of factors at play. a war, hostages being held, tens of thousands of people who have died in gusset and there's important discussions to have. it's important to discuss the impact on our country. how do you assess the impact? the political impact as we look to the presidential race? >> it is wild that students are plugged into foreign policy in a foreign war that's not directly affecting a lot of the folks we see protesting. many people across the country of lost family members in gaza because of what's going on with israel. they are holding president biden accountable. people are expecting there will be similar protest at the convention in chicago which is closer to the election. what is striking is how much

young people have sustained this energy since october 7, and focusing on and educating themselves about was going on in gaza and the palestinians are being treated. educating themselves about the foreign aid we give israel and what it means for different countries and universities they engage with. it's a moral issue for them. that's what's difficult to capture. they might not be the people responding to polls, and if they are, they're not saying how they will vote. they are saying what's important and what is not. >> it's bigger than politics. rising anti-semitism which is an issue as well. on of these protests are monolithic. what's interesting is there was a lot of things but the national harvard youth poll -- >> a good poll. is a former fellow. >> they found president biden

leads trump under 30 years old by 50% by 37%. he needs to win by more than that. just over half of respondents support a cease-fire, i'm not sure why it's not higher, it's the most important issue. i raise this because if you're the biden campaign, you have to be thinking about what's on the minds of the voters in the groups you are targeting. to these voters in this polls, and polls are imperfect, economic concerns, inflation, health care, the economy were front and center. do you buy that? people are not responding? how should the campaign be thinking about what the factors are with the need to turn at the youth vote? >> i've said this before, economy can economy were top of issue. there are multiple variables. too often in the media we look at, what's the top issue and that's the most of issue and

let's just talk about that? >> abortion is often lower down. >> there's a difference between top issue concern and the idea of what's a private mobilizer. reproductive rights was a mobilizer and continues to be. it is tragic both the terrorist attack on israel and israelis who died and it's tragic that palestinians are caught in the crossfire. young people as they will do have every right to protest. it's interesting the president brought up the right to protest because that's a contrast to what donald trump talked about rounding up protesters. that was important but from a political standpoint, the nbc -- i am a company guy, focus groups that they did among independent younger voters in wisconsin showed a similar thing that the harvard poll showed and that was younger voters saying it was important,

being concerned by this issue and understanding there were other issues. this is important for politics because it's about, do you have an advantage in the contras? they did not want to buy -- beat up on biden because they didn't see trump is better. they thought trump would be worse. it's not a political plus is a contrast. >> a very big difference between them which is very startling. on this issue. tim miller, it's a broad question, but you work for jeb bush and you were a republican, former republican. how do you look at these campus protests, israel/hamas war, how this is playing a. particularly with independence and young voters? >> yeah, i do have concerns.

i think there are a lot of people in the group we focus on, former republicans, suburban republicans that show biden has done well with. the ones still voting for nikki haley. they are turned off by the protests. they are turned off by the fact it seems to be unilaterally targeted at protesting israel and there's anti-semitic undertones, sometimes, from the river to the sea and glory to the martyrs. that is turning off jewish voters so is losing voters on both sides. young voters who are upset is not doing more for the humanitarian crisis and losing altitude there. also in the opposite end of the coalition, potentially losing some. i think that's why he spoke to strike a more balanced tone. as far as young voters, i would

caution -- i'm not as panicked as maybe some on the left feel. if you look at the harvard poll, biden had 56% and likely voters. he only got 60 last time. that's down a little bit, but that's smaller than what it makes it seem. there has been a big change in politics from the obama years. then that was the least likely voters tended to be pro-obama and anti-republican, but it's flipped. the least likely voters are suspect of joe biden or maybe rfk jr. interested her cornell west. it's a different type of young voters that democrats are targeting this time. if you look at the likely voter numbers, it's not as alarming. >> i don't want to poke a hole in anyone's bubble. >> poke.

>> the harvard youth poll among the voters who said they would support biden, 56% are unenthusiastic. 60% of those who will vote for trump are enthusiastic. that is worrisome to people who want joe biden to win. the top issue doesn't necessarily mean that's what the motivating factor. trump could do or say something in same between now and november that would change motivating factors. if you're not feeling enthusiastic about joe biden, who knows how strong that tie is. >> that's a fair point but i want to go back to tim's point about the numbers in the harvard poll and what's happening and elections. it is not as though trump is picking up support. what did he get among young voters in the past two elections? roughly 36% of young voters. in this harvard poll, 37%. it's not like he is benefiting. to me, the number 1 challenge

for the biden campaign are the younger voters. if you look at where he's most office 2020 performance it's among young voters. >> one of the challenges, messaged a lot of campaigns, we have one minute left so make it good. what should people be saying about the contrast to young voters to make it clear? >> tim knows this well. we political hacks no on the end, do you have a good story to tell? if you look at environmental issues that biden has pushed for and you look at the infrastructure, look at the issues, look at college loans, look at the issues most important to younger voters, i think in some ways he has a better story to tell young voters than barack obama did. i will get in trouble for saying that. >> i love the disagreement. poking is good.

thank you all so much for joining me this evening. that does it for me tonight. chris hayes will be back tomorrow. alex wagner tonight starts right now.