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for "the last word", to report once again. tonight, dramatic moments in donald trump's criminal trial, and his lawyers go after a key prosecution witness. what happened in the courtroom and why trump says he may not testify anymore. a surprise speech from president biden, what he say about unrest on college campuses. later? i'm talking to you, robert de niro. he sounds the alarm about another trump term as "the 11th hour" gets underway on this thursday night. good evening, again. we are now 187 days away from the election, but donald trump's attorneys were on attack mode in his new york criminal trial. they went after key witness,

keith davidson, the lawyer who negotiated has many deals for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. they used him to go after another star witness, michael cohen. >> reporter: former president trump arrived in court today, watching his defense team go on offense, casting a key prosecution witness as out to extort him for money. the defense hoped to discredit keith davidson, who negotiated payoffs for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. both threatened to go public with stories of affairs with mr. trump ahead of the 2016 election. trump denied the allegations and denied any advanced knowledge of payoffs. his defense team suggested the davidson had a habit of shaking down celebrities, like charlie sheen, for money. davidson said he never extorted anyone, testifying at length about negotiations with michael cohen, trump's former attorney. he admitted today that he never met nor spoke to the former

president. instead, he dealt exclusively with michael cohen, has he -- who he painted as desperate and despondent that trump would not promote him, describing a phone call, lamenting, "i can't believe i'm not going to washington," saying "he had saved trump so many times." he testified that he thought michael cohen would kill himself. it's helpful point for defense as they tried to cast michael cohen is having an axe to grind against mr. trump. trump is accused of doctoring records to disguise repayments to michael cohen, making his testimony critical for prosecutors, now seeking additional fines against trump, saying that he violated a gag order, again, by calling his former -- farmer fix her a liar. the defense argues that the president should be allowed to defend himself against michael cohen's criticism. the mac i am on constitutionally guaranteed. he

gagged me. >> reporter: the judge is not ruled but did express concern about trump's statements and the effect they may have on other potential witnesses. >> the trial resumes tomorrow, with a forensic analyst from the d.a. analyst -- d.a.s office on the witness stand. let's get to our panel, peter baker joins us, tim o'brien, trump biographer, who wrote "trepanation -- trump nation," and bloomberg's editor, and retired superior court judge cornell, author of "her honor," tim, you go first. you were in the courtroom today. did donald trump see you, because i know he saw lawrence o'donnell. what did he say? >> he didn't see me, i was

across the way. i think one of the things that we are seeing in this trial as it continues is an accumulation of the same kind of evidence of the same crew of people doing the same nefarious things and i think it is plain on their face what it's about. i don't think there's much doubt at this point that they were trying to pay off people to be quiet, in order to get a foot up in the election. the issue is whether or not you go from misdemeanors to a felony and election interference. i don't know how the jury is going to land on this. we are getting a seedy tale about the underbelly of power and money and politics in new york city. >> okay, but is there any chance that people hear that and say, that's just how nasty new york city big business works? could it look like they are all

just kind of know good, but not necessarily that trump is a criminal? >> yes. i think that is where it tips, ultimately, what is the impact of the case? it's unknown. thinking back to the january 6 hearings, where people were saying american voters have forgotten about january 6th, and don't care, there were the hearings and the tail got to the public. it did matter to voters and it made them think about what those events might mean and i think that this trial may not end up legally be inconsequential for donald trump. it could be, i don't know, but every day i think he is sitting there, there is a referendum on him as a husband and a businessman, and what he was capable of and i do think that at the end of the day, the selection will come down to a small slice of independent and moderate voters in six or seven states who i do think care

about this. voters on the left and right are already decided about where they are going to be. cases like this are consequential for that group of people and what they are seeing is that donald trump is shabby, and donald trump allows an adult film star to come into the office of trump tower, 30 floors beneath his residence, where his wife was with their four month old child, and that is the same man who wants to leave court to attend his son's graduation. they're saying he didn't really care at the end of the day about these things, he did it anyway, and once it came out in the open, he has tried very hard to bury it. >> not from his wife, but the american voter. >> both. >> dave, donald trump expressed

he's angry, he does not feel his defense team is aggressive enough. he wants roy cohen to admit, he was disgraced and disbarred. if you were alive today, he would not be able to represent donald trump. his team was the most aggressive we've seen today. do you think that is a good move? >> i think they missed the mark. >> do they do well any other day? >> no, it's going well for the prosecution. keith davidson is an important witness and trump's team went after him in a big way, saying that he and his client, stormy daniels are extortionists, but it's smart. trump is on trial for the falsification of business records and that allegedly led to campaign-finance violations, by claiming he is the victim of extortion, it does not help his defense. it's not magic fairy dust, you sprinkle extortion over the charges and they go away, that

is not how that works. in their zest to be aggressive, they didn't help the defense much. >> the lawyer understands, keith davidson, recalled worrying on election night the hush money swayed the election. he texted the executive editor of the national enquirer and said, "what have we done?" how crucial is that to prosecution? >> extremely crucial. this whole trial tells a story and the prosecution has a story, the defense has its own story, so the prosecution story, everything is building, one thing to the next, and everything we can get, particularly text messages, phone calls, recordings, all of that is what juries love to hear. this was a critical piece of the story, that is building each day. it >> today, the jury heard a

recording. they actually heard the recording of a conversation between donald trump and michael cohen in 2016 about the financing of the hush money payment to stormy daniels. how important is evidence like that? >> important, because one of transki defenses is he knew nothing. every time -- >> you are dating yourself. >> i'm turning 53 tomorrow! when you can put trump in the room with michael cohen in a conversation with michael cohen and david pecker, that shows he had the knowledge. the question is, can you place trump with the decision to falsify business records? you have to get there and that's the only piece of the puzzle missing. stuff like this is powerful because people lie but recordings don't. >> to that point, trump's lawyers can attack michael cohen all they want , but when you have a recording like this, you can't refute it.

could these primary sources make a difference? >> yeah, the witness today was presenting donald trump, his own voice. you cannot refute that and the more you hear his voice, the more it seems real, it's not just a tale told by sleazy characters that you may not find reputable. he actually, is in fact, the main character. it's not surprising that someone charged with a crime is surrounded by people who may not be the most reputable people in the world. that is the main thing for every prosecutor, but juries time and time again will make the distinction and understand that witnesses who are checkered in their own past, it doesn't mean they're not telling what is really going on and there's a lot of evidence that donald trump tried to make sure the american public did not know about this, to use money and the question becomes,

whether it's a felony or how much we can improve the falsification of business records, many americans have known this for several years. >> i want to listen to what donald trump said on the campaign trail yesterday in his day off. >> there is no crime. the judge is a conflicted judge and i tell him, unfortunately, it's a 95% democrat area. other than that, things are wonderful. >> let's just fact check for the audience, a democrat area. the case is being tried in manhattan because it's where the alleged crimes were committed but when you were a judge, did you ever experience anything remotely like this from a defendant? >> no, i was a trial court judge for nearly 20 years and never, ever, have i heard judges denigrated in this

fashion. it's really sad, to me. there are a lot of people listening, the world is listening, but donald trump's followers are listening to this and some may be persuaded, why give any respect to the court system, to judges, to the process, when in fact, an independent judiciary is the third leg of a democracy? the executive, legislative, and the judiciary and he has repeatedly been tearing it down, constantly. that is why the gag order is in effect but of course the judge did not apply it to himself. i'm not sure why, because it's nothing to do with the judge being thin-skinned, it's tearing the parties attempt the judiciary. the gag order, that's fine, it's trying, in a way, to stop donald trump but it's ineffective because the punishment as far as fines don't mean anything. he's not being deterred.

>> i want to share what trump said today when he was asked if he would testify and i want to remind the audience recently said he does want to testify. he's changing his tune. watch this. >> i would love to answer the question, it's a very easy question, the easiest question so far, but i'm not allowed to testify because this judge is conflicted and has ordered an unconstitutional gag order. >> i can't believe i need to ask you this, but for the record, can a gag order prevent someone from testifying? >> no. i think what donald trump has done is use the wrong word. he meant that he can't talk about it and is using the word "testify" because he's ignorant of the court process and i think that he is unwilling to learn what this process is about and how things are done.

no, of course, if he chooses to testify that his right, and even if his attorneys tell him, we don't want you to testify, they have not proven the case, if he decides he wants to, he can testify. >> what is absurd to me is that people are going to believe him. people, i will see my parents sunday night my mother is going to say something like, can you believe donald trump won't even be able to tell his story because the judge gave him a gag order, a complete lie that he is willing to tell the american people and there will be those out there who believe it, hook, line, and anger. peter, before we leave, president biden gave a surprise speech about the protest and arrest on college campuses. watch this. >> we have all seen the images, and they put to the test two fundamental american principles . the first is the right to free speech and for people to peacefully assemble and make their voices heard.

the second is the rule of law. both must be upheld. look, it's a matter of fairness. it's about what's right. the right to protest, but not the right to cause chaos. >> peter, this is such a difficult angle -- needle for the president to thread. why did he decide to talk? >> it's been 10 days since he said anything at all about campus protest and even that was only a couple sentences did the question -- the pressure is building, not just with republicans chiding him for not picking up but democrats that are nervous and frustrated that he was not giving answers and leaving it to spokespeople to address. the images that people are seeing are disturbing and they wanted to hear their president say what he meant and he was saying yes, protest, note to chaos and violence and

especially anti-semitism. that the line the democrats wanted him to acknowledge and he got criticism from the left saying he was too harsh on protesters who were not violent because this was rushed. republicans are unsatisfied by his comments and will continue to try to wrap anti-semitism around his neck. these protesters are protesting president biden. he tried to say, there's a balance of the free-speech rights of the people who don't agree with him, against the idea of disruption and violence and anti-semitism. >> thank you. thank you for joining us . before we go to break, let's check in on our egt tracker. his media stock finished the day $49 a share. that's up almost 8% from yesterday. meanwhile, the company's ceo, yes, devin nunes, is pushing

for investigations into companies that he says are illicitly shortselling the stock. he wants congress and the nasdaq to investigate. i would like him to tell us who exactly the big buyers of the stock are and if they actually care about this company or if it's just a beautiful way to avoid all campaign-finance donation regulations and that's the way they are giving to his campaign. i would love to know the answer to that. in the meantime, we will keep watching trump media stock because remember, his stage is currently worth $5 billion. on paper, that's a big number. we will keep you up on that is you should know what's really going on, every day. when we return, trump says he will only accept the 2024 election results if they are honest, which we all know is code for if he wins. are political panel will be here to talk about it.

later, robert de niro, one of new york's favorite sons, unleashes on his least favorite new yorker. i bet you can guess who. "the 11th hour" is just getting underway on a thursday night.

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with xfinity mobile! plus, save even more and get an eligible 5g phone on us! visit xfinitymobile.com today. from chavez and huerta to striking janitors in the 90s to today's fast-food workers. californians have led the way. now, $20/hour is here. thanks to governor newsom and leaders in sacramento, we can lift workers out of poverty. stop the race to the bottom in the fast-food industry. and build a california for all of us. thank you governor and our california lawmakers for fighting for what matters. : deja vu, and not the good kind. donald trump will not commit to accepting election results if he loses, which he said in an

interview with a wisconsin paper wednesday. he also falsely claimed, or lied, again, that he won wisconsin in 2020. for the sake of facts, he did not and there was no evidence of fraud and was gone in. those results were confirmed by two recounts, both paid for by donald trump himself, not to mention the court ruling, state audit, and a study by a conservative legal firm. let's bring in simone sanders townsend, cohost of "the weekend" and chief spokesperson to vice president harris, and steve harris, now with the lincoln project. so elections are honest, but trump doesn't like it when he loses. what's your take? >> i worked in elections for decades and there's not any voter fraud. people know this. what trump is doing is, it's an assault on principles of

american society. it attacks our voting system, our law and order, when he announces he's going to pardon people convicted of felonies for trying to end the peaceful transition of power. this is really unprecedented and the republican party has become an author -- authoritarian movement rather than a political party. >> simone, what do you think? >> stewart is right. to be clear, donald trump does it on purpose. folks might remember that very notorious 60 minutes interview with leslie stahl, a panel discussion, some months after the interview where she was talking about what donald trump said to her. i will watched on c-span, she and her producer were in the room and she said donald trump called her, an enemy of the

people and she said, it's just us. you can turn it off. do you believe that? and he said you know why i say this? so when you all criticize me or say i said something, they don't believe you, believe me. he knows what he's doing. when he says these things, what he hints at like oh, if it's fair, i don't know, it turns out the way we all think it will, he knows exactly what he's doing and he has a particular message that he himself has seen works. >> biden also broke his silence today on campus protest and offended free-speech but very clearly and aggressively condemned the violence and anti- semitism. how difficult and needle is this for the president to thread? >> well, look, i thought it was an important speech, today. to me, this is joe biden at his best, it's a common sense approach. this is not what's happening,

we can approve of, really, this is what a leader should do. it's what parents do, coaches do, this is something that is very familiar to the american people. when he's in this role, he is winning and i think it's a good move for him. >> simone, it may have been a fine moment for biden, but he is dealing with the fact that trump and his allies are out there, falsely tying the president to these protests, which he has nothing to do with. >> absolutely, that's why i think is behind what to the president said, telling people what's true. i've read a lot and seen a lot on the internet, since this has happened, since those remarks, lots of folks said oh, look at democrats walking away from protest, very different from

2020. i'm here to tell people that what the president said today is very similar, if not almost exact to what he said in the aftermath of the george floyd protest in 2020. he made the same comments about peaceful protest, not vandalizing things, obviously, george floyd protest did not have anything to do with islamophobia or anti-semitism, so those were new elements, but what you heard from the president today is consistent and frankly, for my experience, what he believes. this is a, you can't please everybody, right? joe biden has to say what he believes and while he is saying that, be clear about what he's doing and we've heard a lot about what's happening across the country. i think the coverage seems to paint with a broad stroke brush and does not speak to the fact that college students are not a

monolith in these campuses, the issues and the protesters and those who are advocating for various issues are not monolithic. frankly, we have not even seen the generation divide. people have to be clear that we might be talking about very specific instances but the more broad thing is what is happening with negotiations in cairo? the president has to be in a position to talk about that and he did a little, today. i think the campaign and the white house need to give him more spaces to do that and explain what's happening. >> simone, stuart, thank you. when we come back, we know that a potential trump second term seems a lot -- seeks more power over federal agencies but now, his allies have their eyes on the federal reserve. we will explain on the other side of the break why that would be a disaster for our economy, that and more when "the 11th hour" continues .

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his campaign did not deny that reporting. joining me now is my good old friend, senior analyst and ceo, and lauren hirsch. explain to us, the fed's independence is crucially important to the health of our economy. what might it look like if the white house controlled it? >> we don't know but we can guess what trump would want which would be low interest rates all the time. the reason the fed chair is not a political role is because sometimes, the fed chair has to do unpopular things like keep interest rates up, so obviously, it's a question we are debating. if you have someone who is purely thinking in a way that is acting, you know, at the beck and call of the president or by political means, you risk 0% interest rates forever and an inflationary environment, a weak dollar, and that can

impact the strength of the economy. >> whether or not it was donald trump, here we are in an election, the fed will not cut interest rates. if the president, any president, had influence over the fed, i have a sinking feeling he would push to cut rates. >> i have a view of this in trump terms, they want a financial market crisis the likes of which the country is never seen if the president had any word, and particularly if the former president had any day in the decision on where interest rates should go. the fed has done a pretty good job on inflation and with the structure, they've put off rate cut. they are doing the hard work that needs to be done. you don't want any president getting involved. >> consumer confidence is dipping again. is that because inflation is so high? whether you are talking about insurance, rent, buying a house

or buying a sandwich, life is expensive. is that why consumers are starting to say, hold on a minute, i'm not paying? >> it's been a challenge for biden for the past year or so where you have economic indicators and the long and short of it is inflation, that companies that are taking advantage of the moment and raising their prices, have those fewer economic factors and that's the question for the biden administration. >> we are hearing more and more companies report say, they are starting to see a slowdown, starbucks, in a big way. can these companies afford to have less customers now that they are charging so much? if i ran a sandwich shop, i don't need a line around the corner if i can charge $25 a sandwich. >> but your revenue would still go down so suddenly your business slows and you're forced to cut prices to man

your business, so you start to get into position where you lay off people and that can cascade into the much more broad problem for the economy, rising unemployment, and a recession. the cure for high prices is high prices and that is what we are seeing. >> in a way, not that anyone is looking for deflation, isn't this -- we will put our audience to sleep at 11:30 doing that. isn't that what the fed wants? they wanted to cool the economy a bit, yet people were still spending, spending, spending. if we slow down spending, that might be a positive. >> absolutely. the other question for the fed is the labor market. how is that going? are we just going up? is hiring? those of the big factors. >> i want to talk about north

dakota governor, doug burgum, a donald trump vp wannabe. i want to share something he said earlier. >> his policies are in the right direction. you care about your shareholders, your family, your grandkids, you should vote for someone who will bring prosperity to america and peace to the world and that is what president trump will do. >> donald trump wants tariffs, tax cuts, and achieve monetary policy which would drive inflation. that's not good for shareholders. there's a reason the "billionaires should elect donald trump" is because he will cut corporate taxes and hang onto interest and have every beautiful loophole for the superrich. >> it's the reverse robin hood where they finance the rich, as we saw with the prior trump administration. the additional piece, he wants mass deportation of immigrants who, for years, have filled

gaps in our labor force, not taking jobs from americans in decline. the combination of these policies would be inflationary and recessionary, simultaneously. >> a one-two punch. thank you. >> always a pleasure. when we return, my dream interview, robert de niro, on his worst nightmare. our key conversation, when "the 11th hour" continues. oooh! i can't wait for this family getaway!

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he is so blatantly , he's a punk, a dog, a pig, a con. this was robert de niro's warning about donald trump in 2016. now, he says the threat from donald trump is twice as bad and called the former president "pure evil." we sat down, blocks away from where defendant trump was sitting in court and robert de niro made his case. >> over the last eight years, we've heard you talk about the former president, you called him a fraud, a con artist. he's a new yorker like you and you have watched this brand of bs for decades and despite that, he became president and now, we are watching him, 10 blocks from where we are now, sitting in a courtroom as a

criminal defendant. what do you think about that? >> i think of how absurd it is that this might be the one case that could be it for him. it's a state case, it's the least important, in many ways, and yet it's the one that could be tried and finished in enough time for people to just take that in. >> does it give you some sense, not of joy, but relief, at least, that he's potentially facing some consequences? as you said before, this guy is a con artist and he's gotten away with it for years. >> no, he's more than that, to me. he is sick, he is genuinely a sick person that somehow has been allowed into our system. i'm not calling him names, he

just can't be anywhere near of the offered and -- the office of the presidency. >> you play a lot of bad guys. would you ever play trump? >> never. there is not one redeeming thing about him that i can see, ever, ever. it's funny, i was just thinking that he actually became president. he could have done good things. instead, he had to do it wrong. he is so, as we all know, narcissistic and self-centered. >> what do you say to those who say, i don't like the guy, but i'm going to vote for him, what's your message? >> i don't understand and i don't think they understand how dangerous it would be if he becomes president. i don't think they really

understand historically, from what i've, in germany, with hitler, they don't take it seriously, he looks like a clown, he acts like a clown. mussolini, the same thing. somehow, that element of society identifies in some way with him but it would be chaos beyond our imagination, no mystery about it. it's right out front and what he says is what it will be. >> do you think our democracy is at risk in the selection? the >> i think it is. democracy is great, of course, but democracy people take for granted, the word some people don't understand, it's about right and wrong, period. the guy is a monster. it's almost like he wants to do the most horrible things he can

think of to get a rise out of us. i don't know what it is, but he's been doing it and doing it and it is -- scary. excuse my french. >> do you have any concerns for the future of the arts, if you were to become president? he artie said he wants to go after his enemies, journalists, news, what about your industry? >> i believe, the only thing i would think is what will happen is that he will go after these things impulsively and he will be stopped, there will be pushback, there might be in the streets conflict, that could happen, civil strife, and but he will try it. >> you have no upside in having this conversation. it is speaking out against donald trump, you are making yourself a target. the interview will air and he will immediately find a reason to talk bad about you in public

, but you are choosing to use your platform to do so. what do you say to other celebrities who don't want to alienate part of their fan base, don't want to step in harms way, but have similar megaphones that you do? is the mac -- >> you know, the idea, to be bullied, at my age by someone like this? that's not happening. >> i am pretty sure you were never bullied. >> as a kid, sometimes but not, in this country? no. other people will have to stand up, because it's either that or you are going to find yourself in a situation that is so terrifying. you always hear about people from eastern europe, from western europe, coming over to france, and they come over, and when i was a kid, they would say, you don't really

appreciate this country, but we know from experience. imagine what those people went through. i'm just starting to see it, as a kid. now, i see that it's possible, but those people, sometimes they run into people close to my age, from eastern europe, european countries, you know, they, you understand it. >> did you ever care this much about politics? >> no, i'm indifferent, it's not, i'm so angry about what's going on i don't see that it can be avoided. >> is joe biden the right guy? is that we don't have a choice. he's a good guy, he's trying to do the right thing and we don't have a choice and i say that in a very positive way. >> what is your message to president biden? >> keep up the fight, go at it,

go at him hard every chance you get. go at him, because people, they take notice of that stuff. he's doing what he should be and he knows that. it's the only way. i said figuratively, punch him in the face, go at him. donald trump is not just a bully, he's a bully. >> you warned america about who donald trump was in 2016. you are a lifetime new yorker, so is he. you said the country does not realize who this fraudster is and not enough people listened. do you think they will listen now? >> i hope to god they do. if it goes the other way, and i keep saying this, you will see things that, like, you will see, it's like "invasion of the body snatchers." you will see people you knew or thought you knew changing, going to that side for self- preservation, because they

actually believe it, or are deluding themselves or whatever, and when that happens and you are walking among people used to know, suddenly they are not opposing him. they go with the flow, and that is even more's gary, insidious, if you could say, depressingly, disappointing. there has to be a time where you say, okay. we are not doing that, we are not allowing that to happen. >> this moment is about decency and democracy, do you? >> decency and right and wrong and democracy follows. you have to behave to make democracy work. >> robert de niro, thank you for your time. >> robert de niro said, i'm not calling him names, he is a bully, a bully. robert de niro could not hold

back. when we come back, giving our nations teachers the credit they deserve, and who better to do it that america's top teacher herself? dr. joe biden, -- dr. jill biden when "the 11th hour" continues. nues.

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tonight, we celebrate you, because teaching is not just a job, it's a calling. all of you were called to this profession for a reason. you believe that a better world is possible, and you make that world real. >> the last thing before we go tonight, honoring our teachers. first lady, dr. jill biden, hosted the first ever teachers of the year state dinner. dr. biden, proud teacher for over 30 years, wanted to give the event for educators, a well- deserved upgrade. it honored the 2024 national

teacher of the year, from test -- from tennessee and teachers of the year from across the country. testerman is an esl teacher, a staunch advocate for her students, families, and fellow teachers. here are some of her beautiful remarks. >> as in english as a second language teacher, my students are all either immigrants to our country or first-generation americans having been born to immigrant parents. hearing the experiences of my students and their families reminds me daily what a privilege it is to be an american and what a privilege it is to attend a public school in this country. we hold the future of the country in our hands, just as every generation of teachers before us has done. it is a charge that we take seriously and we will deliver just as

legions of teachers before us have. >> we would like to congratulate miss testerman and all of the state teachers of the year. you truly are the backbone of our nation and we thank you for your hard work and dedication to our children. on that beautiful note, i wish you a very good night. be sure to tune in tomorrow, because it's friday and our nightcap. if you miss it, catch it again saturday at 11:00 eastern right here on msnbc. for now, signing off. from all of our colleagues, thank you for joining us. we will see you tomorrow. tomor good evening from washington, d.c. i'm je