which could change the whole dynamic in the house, they'll continue doing that but won't do it for free. >> and lastly and briefly, what has johnson said about all this? how has he responded to this move by democrats? >> he's been incredibly dismiss sieve, criticized marjorie taylor greene. he's defended what he's done. and really stuck to why he put that bill on the floor that would send ukraine, israel and taiwan billions of dollars. and he is just continuing to do what he's trying to do with his razor thin majority in the house and try to continue to pass legislation and a lot of it needs democratic support. that's really the dynamic here as well. >> publically the white house remained silent about this but privately, of course, pleased that got done in support of democrats' efforts to keep johnson in place right now. great stuff as always.

daniella, thank you. and thanks to you all for getting up "way too early" with us on this wednesday morning. "morning joe" starts now. when trump hasn't been asleep he's violating his gag order by posting messages attacking, witnesses. and so today the judge finally had his ruling on those. and charged him $9,000. $9,000 may not seem like a lot to a successful businessman but what about to trump? >> we'll have all the developments from donald trump's hush money criminal trial just ahead. nbc legal analyst lisa reuben was inside the courtroom and she'll join us in a moment. we'll go through trump's interview with time magazine. the former president was asked about january 6th abortion policy and the upcoming election. and it's worth a listen. or a read.

plus we'll bring you the latest out of the middle east, including israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu's defiant comments on a possible invasion in southern gaza. good morning and welcome to "morning joe," it is wednesday, may 1st, everybody. >> it's may? >> i love may. >> birthday eve. >> birthday eve eve, willie. >> back-to-back. >> we have a birthday thing. along with willie and me we have the host of "way too early" jonathan lemire. >> you have the share. >> we share cake, everything, it's annoying. jonathan lemire you were on -- what's that thing? >> seth myers. nbc colleague. >> i love seth. he's brilliant. thought you did a good job. >> thank you. >> were you nervous? >> been on before, he and his staff were so kind. >> so nice. >> we talked about the trump trial, the campus unrest, and

behind the scenes we expressed worry behind the boston red sox. >> did you sleep last night? >> i always get a little bit of sleep, only a little. >> also with us, correspondent katty kay. we begin this morning with new york city police clearing columbia university, the building seized by protesters, dozens of officers arrived on campus late last night wearing riot gear, using a ramp to get inside the hall occupied by protesters on monday. video shows special police units entering a building through a second story window. officers say about 40 people were arrested there, walked out, calmly. the university released these images of the damage and vandalism inside hamilton hall. you can see overturned chairs and furniture, broken windows

and panes of glass. the university said they decided to call the police after speaking with the board of trustees releasing a statement, the decision to reach out to the nypd was in response to the actions of the protesters not the cause they are championing. we have made it clear that the life of campus cannot be interrupted by the protesters. they believe the group that broke into the building was led by people not affiliated with columbia. they also cleared the encampment that had been up for about two weeks and now the university is asking the nypd to stay on campus until may 17th, which is just two days after columbia's commencement, trying to make sure, willie, that everything is safe through graduation day. i want to point out there, you

didn't see people getting dragged out screaming. i think they were all over this and they outmanned it and numbered it and made sure it was a calm event. >> and columbia university said we told you this was going to happen, gave you warning. >> they went in through the second floor and said hello you're leaving now. >> they didn't have to use tear gas, no gyres in this. they cleared it relatively easily for the nypd. let's bring in tom winter. tom, before we talk about the operation let's talk about how it got to that point. what was the moment that columbia said we need to bring in the nypd who had been there for weeks outside on broadway and different places but we need to send them into the building. >> the nypd was content to let this keep going if it was just an encampment and columbia called and wanted help sure they would show up. but they needed a letter inviting them on campus because if no complaint of crime was

committed, the nypd can't stroll onto private property and conduct police operations it's a violation of two amendments talking about a protest. so that's something they needed to be careful of. overnight this hamilton hall incident where someone snuck into the building, stayed inside and then let individuals in and the nypd working with columbia was looking at surveillance camera video saying wait a minute, these are not necessarily all students inside this hamilton hall. this presents a problem because these individuals, the nypd says, have been on our radar for several years, we know them as anarchist types. the goal is not pro-palestinian, pro-israeli, pick any other cause near and dear to people's heart. this is an effort to engage police in violence and the nypd is afraid they're coopting this

movement and students. i looked at the additional images and say this is a way to try to funnel police in certain rooms, cover windows so people couldn't see where individuals were inside of there, that was a primary concern and the press conference aimed at the public was really at columbia university saying we have concerns what's going on here. >> that was one of the points columbia made in a statement, this was led not by students at this point. is that what the nypd believes as well? in some ways it felt like columbia was letting students off the hook saying they've been swept up in a movement led by anarchists with no cause or ideology. is that the assessment of the nypd it was more the anarchists than students in the building? >> it's unclear because some of the surveillance cameras were damaged.

you saw the ramp used to get inside of that building that we were looking at, because everything needs an acronym it's the mobile adjustable ramp system. the nypd has invested in a way to get inside of -- it's obviously a vertical city these type of buildings should a stand off occur. the opening of this building, normal entrance was blocked. >> at 9:00, mayor adams and the police commissioner are going to hold a press conference. switching to the west coast, there's ucla that scene seemed more tense or chaotic, what do we know there? >> based on the pictures and images we've seen, it's absolutely the case. the lapd has been called to campus there. obviously they have a situation that appears that they may have some counter protesters mixed up in this. that is something concerning when you have two groups

clashing and then you have potential clashes with police. so that's something we continue to report on and get more information. all of this as we have approximately a dozen -- it's not just east coast and west coast and more maybe universities or colleges that are associated with, you know, liberal viewpoints. we've seen protests up and down and across the entire country. i think it does under score something that law enforcement is aware here as we continue into 2024, two things. one the kids are not all right. the kids graduating here on the four year high school, under graduate course, their last graduation was held on zoom because that was during the pandemic. >> we need a graduation to happen. >> so i think they're looking for that graduation and you all talk about this all the time. the lack of interest, the lack of -- that students today and younger generations feel that politicians and people in this country are listening to them. so you saw this cause really big

taken up in a way across the country, across political spectrums on campuses that we haven't seen before. two, i can't quite say where this is coming from to respect my agreements with some of these folks but there's a foreign police chief i heard recently saying once people believe that violence is a way to solve problems politically that's a problem that can last for generations. so we obviously have seen january 6th -- >> thank you for saying this. >> -- people believe that was the cause. i was somewhat heartened last night from a police and protester prospective we didn't see widespread violence at columbia university. did way the nypd handled it -- the way that nypd handled it give them credit and also the kids who said that's enough. >> and the scenes from ucla looking more chaotic and violent

than scenes from columbia. i spoke to somebody late last night from the administration at columbia they said we had no choice. now they hope they can get through the next two weeks of school, get through graduation and students go home. >> they can restore some semblance of calm on cam us. you have the conventions this summer, the election in november, the political atmosphere, as you point out tom, is fee briel in this country. >> there's a fallout for sure. those in the white house and biden campaign are watching. donald trump is stoking this, blaming this on biden. before we get into that, that argument as nonsense. we know there were young voters upset about the scenes in gaza. and there's fears that the scenes of tumult are turning off swing voters that don't want to

see chaos. it's may, there's a long way till the election. but it is a concern. graduations come in two weeks, president biden is scheduled to give a couple of commencement addresses there are worries what could happen at those events. >> say for instance there was a cease-fire tomorrow and the ongoing military operations by israel or any sort of retaliation by hamas ended tomorrow. the concern in law enforcement community and from what i've seen is that it's another ideology that will be picked up, certainly among these groups they don't care what the ideology is but among the dissatisfaction, the fact they believe two political candidates generations older than them, that are not speaking to them, the next thing in the jukebox of grievances they have concerns about, perhaps legitimate concerns about, is going to be picked up, that's something we need to pay attention to.

>> students for justice in palestine that group was outspoken before the war. it's not about how the war is being prosecuted it's about how they feel, sometimes in awful ways, about israel. you have brown, where students and the school came to an agreement. yale's encampment has been broken up. it seems in some places this has run its course going on in a lot of places. southern state schools, university of north carolina, virginia tech seeing these scenes. do law enforcement, do the universities feel like this has some legs? is this going to continue through the graduation? >> certainly the nature of colleges and universities at some point kids are going to go home, go to summer jobs, internships. what columbia communicated, we

would like you here through graduation to law enforcement, they are concerned are they dealing with the same problem again in a week. and some of the concerns about the anarchist groups they'll co-op any movement and columbia shutdown we'll move to, pick a university. or they'll come back to columbia. give it a week they won't be as strict on security. so that's something they want to keep a handle on. at some point this runs its course for this semester but whatever the next thing is is going to be the next thing and i think that's coming as late as this fall. >> we'll be following that. >> nbc news investigation correspondent tom winter. thank you for jumping in this morning. still ahead on "morning joe" we turn to donald trump's hush money trial. the takeaways from yesterday and there were a lot. our next guest says just when the testimony had veered to snoozeland along came keith

davidson, former lawyer to stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. that's next on "morning joe." 's. ♪ and doug ♪ hello, ghostbusters. it's doug... ... of doug and limu. we help people customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. anyway, we got a bit of a situation here. ♪♪ uh-huh. uh-huh. ♪♪ [ metal groans] sure, i can hold. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty liberty liberty liberty ♪ ghostbusters: frozen empire. in theaters now. when you purchase a pair of bombas socks, tees, or underwear, you also donate one to someone facing homelessness. one purchased equals one donated. 100 million donations and counting. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first order.

yesterday the judge fined donald trump $9,000 and warned him future violations could land him in jail. the judge also granted trump's request to attend his son's high school graduation on may 17th. testimony resumed with four witnesses taking the stand for the prosecution during the day. next up was more from the former

banker for michael cohen. testifying about the creation of a shell company that prosecutors say was used to pay adult film actress stormy daniels, the $130,000 hush money payment to keep her quiet about an alleged affair with trump. >> but the day's most significant witness was keith davidson who said he was subpoenaed to testify in the case and got himself immunity. he's the former attorney for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal who also alleges an affair with trump. trump denied any sexual encounters with either women. davidson represented stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. he said he believes the money given to his clients was from trump but he could not recall michael cohen negotiating on

trump's behalf. let's bring in legal correspondent, lisa reuben. keith davidson didn't say he remembered cohen saying this is for donald trump. what is the impact of that? >> you know, he said that he understood ultimately that the money was going to come from donald trump. and that was a very hard fought admission. the assistant da leading the questioning, ran into his first big roadblocks yesterday trying to get that cleanly from keith davidson and trying to establish it was his understanding not just his assumptions, ultimately he got that even after cohen got frustrated and said, god blank it i'll pay it myself. he got davidson to say but i understood at the end of the day that money was going to come from donald trump. and one of the ways he understood that, he said that cohen, part of his identity was

he, worked for donald trump, he never let you forget it. it was clear whatever cohen was doing he was doing for trump at trump's behest. he could not make the payment without trump's knowledge and permission is the impression that davidson left us with. >> making the point to go step by step witness by witness of every part of this transaction. is anything at this point surprising you in terms of the detail here and how much they're pinning down exactly how this money ultimately got back to michael cohen through trump? >> i think what's surprising me is how pain staking it is. >> exactly. >> and how much scaffolding they're building around the narrative we understand from michael cohen's permeation of our culture. michael cohen's narrative is one we're all at this table and many of our viewers are familiar with. what we didn't know is how many other people touched this transaction, were a part of the

conversations around it. for example the text yesterday -- >> the texts. >> between keith davidson and dylan howard of american media were revelatory about how much back and forth went into arranging these deals. >> in our coverage of trump over the years. he doesn't email. he covers his tracks. there's no kind of nothing touches him. although this felt a little different because there were a lot of texts and emails around him and there were more people involved than i expected. i thought it was going to be just michael cohen and ultimately the people who received the money. but no, this is a scheme with multiple participants. >> i was interested yesterday in how davidson said that after the "access hollywood" tape came out how things accelerated and changed then. describe why that is important for the prosecution. >> after the "access hollywood" tape comes out, there's an understanding that even though

the stormy daniels story has been in circulation dating back to 2011 and keith davidson described how his first interaction with cohen goes back to 2011 because cohen was furious it got into the public domain. but the way in which those two people interacted, i thought was fascinating. davidson did not want to be a part of this. and he tried to extricate himself from this but because of the urgency felt by michael cohen and the "national enquirer," keith davidson gave the aura just when i thought i was out, they pulled me back in. >> they played the tape -- >> no, they did not -- >> they read it -- how did -- >> they read portions of a transcript in the deposition of the e. jean case. thinking why is that relevant? it contains admissions like this is my x handle. i was married to melania during this period of time. even getting those really basic

admissions from the horse's mouth so to speak, has been fundamental to prosecutors. >> i guess my point jonathan lemire, is hearing these things read out loud is sometimes worse than seeing them on tape. >> yeah. extraordinarily cringe worthy. but also potentially impactful and laying an important foundation. let's talk about the gag order speaking of foundations and the judge holding trump in contempt. it's only $9,000 for trump not a lot of money, other people it would be. tell us why it's important the judge did this. is he sending a signal i'm going to treat you like any other defendant you violated, here. could that mean going forward he has another hearing tomorrow on the same issue more potential violations. could it mean ending up with trump in jail? >> it could but a lot of things have to go that way. tomorrow's hearing isn't one predicated on that notice. the things we're going to talk

about tomorrow are things trump has already done. they predate this decision. so you can't say trump had fair warning when he said those things that the judge was willing to impose an incarceration penalty. but marchand is saying to the public, including everyone else, it's not enough that the statute only permits me to fine this guy $1,000 per. it should be a penalty that's meaningful to the person i'm awarding it against in this situation it doesn't hurt this guy. my hands are tied. my options are jail or $1,000 per violation. i think the other thing that it hinges has nothing to do with donald trump at all. there's a paragraph where marchand said it's not lost on me the guy is the presumptive gop nominee and witnesses cannot use the gag order as a sword and shield. so my understanding of what counts as a violation in the

future will be contingent on how other people relevant to this matter behave. michael cohen and stormy daniels, if you continue to use the gag order as protection for your own self, while taking swipes at him that he can't take at you. that will influence what i understood to be the violation. i am sensitive to the defense he raised that he's entitled to defend himself. i'm going to take that in consideration. >> he wants decorum. >> were you in the courtroom? >> i was for part of the day yesterday. >> so you expertly give us the substance. talk atmosphere. donald trump alleged to have dozed off again a couple of times. maybe his lids got heavy. i don't know i can't judge if he was sleeping but he certainly was snapping too a couple of times. it's cold in there --

>> it wasn't yesterday. >> -- which theoretically keeps you awake. tell us about him yesterday. >> his demeanor changes. i elwill tell you where i sat in the overflow room yesterday, donald trump appeared to be asleep or resting more often than not, particularly during the first part of the day where we heard from witnesses who were there as mostly records custodians. on the other hand where the subject matter is very clearly donald trump and what donald trump might have been thinking, like we've seen, for example, with keith davidson's testimony or the more explosive moments of david pecker, donald trump is sitting there and appraising and watching. >> of course he's interested. >> he is selectively choosing when to engage, but particularly in the morning this was not a person very interested or enraptured what was going on.

>> did having eric there make a difference? >> no, having eric there was sad to watch. this might have been the first time eric has seen some of these documents and i and other reporters noticed at times eric trump was looking at the documentation through which this deal was done including emails between cohen and davidson and looking at them interestingly. in particular the contract between peggy and david, the pseudonyms for donald trump and stormy daniels watching eric watch those documents as a human being struck me. >> that's hard. >> it was. these people are people too. >> lisa reuben, thank you for your coverage. >> thank you, lisa. >> thank you, guys. coming up, house democrats say they'll help save speaker mike johnson's job if he follows republicans -- if fellow republicans try to oust him. i really messed that up. we'll have the latest from capitol hill straight ahead on

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and they're all coming? those who are still and ywith us, yes.ness. grandpa! what's this? your wings. light 'em up! gentlemen, it's a beautiful... ...day to fly. beautiful shot of capitol hill, and while we're there at 31 past the hour, welcome back. house democrats announced yesterday they will save speaker mike johnson should congresswoman marjorie taylor greene move forward with her threat to oust him.

in a joint statement democratic leadership said quote at this moment, upon completion of our national security work, the time has come to turn the page on this chapter of pro-putin republican obstruction. we will vote to table representative marjorie taylor greene's motion to vacate the chair if she invokes the motion, it will not succeed. in choosing to table the effort to oust johnson, democrats will avoid a direct public vote on the matter. in response, greene posted on social media, quote, mike johnson is officially the democrat speaker of the house. if the democrats want to elect him speaker and some republicans want to support the democrat's chosen speaker i'll give them the chance to do it. in response to green, the chair of the house democratic caucus, pete agulair had this to say. >> i'm not going to try goat in the head of marjorie taylor greene.

i don't know what goes on in there. >> well, that's -- >> fair. >> yeah. >> that's right. >> all agreed. okay. joining us now capitol hill correspondent julie cirkon. we'll ask you not to get in her head as well because we don't know. but explain to us the fine line the balance that democrats who are supporting him. i understand the transaction here but mike johnson has some basic philosophical constitutional disagreements with the democrats. >> he does, mika and yesterday he looked caught off guard when the statement came out he was in the middle of his republican press conference and reporters obviously pressed him on this he said he didn't do any side deals with democratic leadership to get to this point. he's a conservative life-long republican and that's coming into play if and when marjorie

taylor greene continues to do this, she's holding a press conference in about two and a half hours i plan to attend where she will presumably talk about her plans to oust johnson, it's becoming an unpopular one with democrats and also moderate republicans, many of whom have berated marjorie taylor greene's plans. this is something that works better for her when the threat of this is hanging over johnson's head especially now because she can directly link and connect it saying it's a republican speaker that can only stay in power if democrats move to save him. obviously that statement from democratic leadership was a gift to her yesterday. but it's a fine needle for democrats to thread here. especially if johnson turns around and puts messaging bills on the floor that put them in a hard spot on the border, immigration, abortion. so if they're going to do it once doesn't mean they're going to do it again.

some say johnson is weakened by the sheer comment from democrats they'll save him. this statement may have been a surprise yesterday but it was a long-time coming from democrats who want to push the hard-line republicans out of power. >> is there a sense on capitol hill that speaker johnson in a way called the bluff of maga extremists like marjorie taylor greene saying i'm going to push through this ukraine bill if you want to oust me come at me. and marjorie taylor greene also got out of it what she wanted, she'll have a press conference, raise money, do the things he does. does the speaker feel like his job is safe and he'll survive this. >> remember, willie, he went to mar-a-lago to essential seek former president trump's blessing, that was a week before he decided to put the ukraine bill on the floor. trump staid out of that, that's notable. if he doesn't want to say anything, he opens the floor for

republicans to do whatever they want, to vote how they want, for johnson to put the aid bill on the floor and he also funded the government a couple of weeks before. so all of these must pass items with the exceptions of the faa and farm bills which presumably are going to be bipartisan in the end. that's through, finished. johnson did the hard part that mccarthy couldn't do. and he's someone who did all this work behind the scenes, he didn't have the chance for the democrats to grow to dislike him. he's in a good spot but doesn't mean he's not corner odd a weekly basis with hard line republicans trying to get him to do what they want him to do. i spoke to many conservative republicans ones who may not be happy with johnson but remembered what happened in the fall when congress shut for weeks, there was a circus behind the scenes on the floor in which

jeffries the democratic leader got more votes than republicans did on the floor for speaker. that being said we are closer to the election now, republican donors don't want to see it happen again. >> finally, speaker johnson seemed to be just giving word of warning to universities and colleges across the country who are dealing with these protests, working on initiative to deal with anti-semitism on college campuses. tell us about it. >> speaker johnson yesterday held this press conference with the committee chairs he has from committees of jurisdiction from education working this anti-semitism probe they called various college presidents before them, and now he has this approach, he has jim jordan, look who was looking into biden switching gears and looking into the protests and anti-semitisms

as well if any of the students are here on visas. you hear democrats not opposing this effort because so many of them in leadership, democrats from new york, moderate from democrats, have spoken out against what has turned into anti-semitism on these campuses. when it started to back the humanitarian aid, the need for that gaza, it shifted, some democrats saying they lost the plot. so johnson saying this is going to be the focus of the republican party in the house. he also most notably criticized what's going on in the other chamber, the senate with leader schumer when he came on the floor calling for a change of government in israel, that hasn't left his side. so it's interesting to see what republicans do here. johnson came to columbia a couple of weeks ago, he was met by protesters there, but it'll be interesting to see if he

fully shifts the republican house away from these investigations into the president, many of which have been unfounded and more approaches this anti-semitism push and investigation as a whole. there will be a vote by the way on a bill condemning and expanding the definition of anti-semitism and that's bipartisan. >> thank you very much for coming on the show this morning, we appreciate it. the white house views says a potential cease-fire in gaza is the only way to tamp down some of the unrest we've seen on college campuses nationwide. u.s. officials and arab mediators are pushing hamas to accept the latest proposal which calls for the release of 33 hostages in exchange for a six-week pause in fighting. israel is reportedly planning to send a delegation to cairo in the coming days in an effort to secure the deal. it's excruciating. >> yes, and antony blinken is there this morning meeting with

benjamin netanyahu in jerusalem. meetings will resume later today. this comes a day after the israel leader confirmed he plans to move forward with his planned rafah operation, quote, with or without a deal. the white house has expressed concerns about that plan as it could undermine efforts to secure the release of hostages. joining us now, president emeritus on house relegations, richard haas. we'll talk about the meeting today between antony blinken and prime minister netanyahu. when netanyahu comes out yesterday and says we can meet all you want, you can tell me about the potential cease-fire deal we don't believe hamas is a serious negotiating deal we're going into rafah one way or the other. what is blinken trying to do today? >> netanyahu has to say that. he's defined success as eliminating hamas and his coalition is calling for it,

particularly in the aftermath of what is seen as a compromise with iran. but the administration wants to get the deal. a temporary cease-fire is not what hamas wants they want an open end cease-fire. so i think the administration is pushing the israelis not something on the question of whether they go into rafah but when and how. there's going in and going on. do they go in big, immediately, or wait a while and go in a more calibrated way. that's the real question rather than an either/or thing. what the administration wants is a pause, a hostage deal, and the israelis if and when they go into rafah, which they have to do, do it in a much more careful way. >> some administration officials suggested to me, richard, that netanyahu being so bellicose is a warning hey we're going to go in do the deal first and then perhaps we'll navigate going forward. let's talk about the possibility

for a deal. it was striking john kirby yesterday didn't sound optimistic when asked about it even though there was a sense if i's going to happen, it has to happen now. what's your read? >> we don't know how many hostages are alive still. hamas doesn't want to admit that. there's an open-ended cease-fire, end of israeli occupation is what hamas wants. so i'm skeptical. love to be wrong. you have so many players here, it's hard to make confident predictions. but i say this, if there were a deal, it's not a solution. it buys us time. a lot of the basic questions are still there about rafah, about governance, the day after, violence on the west bank. no one should say this is the answer to what ails the middle east, it's not. >> before arriving in israel, tony blinken was in saudi arabia

talking about this deal with the united states. there's interesting reporting saying that netanyahu's government is waiting on any big security deal with the americans until after the u.s. election because he doesn't necessarily want to hand joe biden a prize. that's different than the reporting we're getting in the states. peter baker reporting this could happen in the next couple of weeks. what game is netanyahu playing here with the white house? do they think they have leverage. >> they do. i think there is a preference for donald trump, though, in the time magazine interview trump was very tough on netanyahu. saying he abandoned me -- >> and congratulated joe biden which trump didn't like. >> one of the things that trump and biden agree on, netanyahu. who would have thought.

but with the saudis that you just brought up, they're a little bit nervous. even though mbs is very much in control of the country he doesn't want to be seen as selling out the palestinians because the new generation of saudis they have awakened to the palestinian issue so they have to get a little bit of cover if they're going to do something with the israelis. they don't have a totally free hand and the question is can netanyahu given his government coalition can he give the saudis the cover they need with the palestinians not clear to me. >> richard haas, thank you very much. it's good to have you on this morning. >> thank you and thank you, willie for your self-restraint. >> too soon. >> too soon. >> way too soon. >> don't do it. >> i have no idea what you're do talking about. >> we'll keep it that way. >> ignorance is -- >> it's better. we'll go through what donald trump did and did not say on the topic of abortion during his

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i predict, katty, that october 7th was a seminal day. if we go back in history, say it's 25 years from now, we look back, say, wow, october 7th was a seminal moment, it pushed the

envelope, it pushed the pendulum back to something more normal than the allowance of this level of radicalism on a campus because the administrators want that money. >> that was a clip from the new podcast "the rest is politics" hosted by katty kay, along with former white house communications director anthony scaramucci. their first episode released last week focuses on the protests last week and trump on trial. and anthony joins us now. >> how about this combo? >> i like the combo. >> this is a good combo. >> confession this is the first time we met in person. in person. >> true? >> on the set of "morning joe". >> that's the beauty of zoom. >> we do the pod on zoom. >> i did a pod with anthony around my book and i was so

impressed, because anthony had actually read the book and had smart questions. >> i love the book. i actually gave the book to my daughter and told her to read it and just think about it. because you explain so many good things in the book about not overreacting in certain situations, and holding yourself together. >> so you learned a lot then? >> no, i haven't learned a lot, mika. that's why i'm on television, mika. if i had read and followed her look -- >> anthony scaramucci, one of the least confident people i've ever met. >> i love it! so tell us not. only about the first episode, but what you guys plan to do with this? >> let's let katty start, i think she's actually -- >> katty's in charge. >> i think katty's in charge and a better news reader than me. i stem cell can't read the teleprompter. >> are you the executive producer. >> there's clearly a market for -- for the rest of the world really to understand america. they think they get it and they don't. and i've always wanted to try to explain what is happening here,

not just in terms of the horse race, but in broader political and social issues. and the world is fascinated by what is going on in this country at the moment. and so it was a great opportunity to do that, but for american audiences, there isn't really something there in podcast form that gives them an outsider and an insider take on what's going on. >> so i just want to point out to our executive producer, that the world is fascinated with what is going on here in the u.s. i'm quoting you. >> yeah. >> they're watching with bated breath. >> why was alex skeptical? >> whenever i ask the question, with you know, what is our standing in the world, i get an eye roll. >> not from me. >> i get an eye roll. >> i would donate that. >> so you were the press secretary for former president trump. >> it was 954,000 seconds. i sometimes say that my therapist. it makes it feel like it was

longer. >> whatever makes you feel better. >> but given -- despite the short duration, however many seconds it was, you do know the guy and you understand the guy. donald trump -- >> i was on the campaign. i worked for him on the campaign. i knew him prior to that. >> and a question that still, after -- >> different -- >> -- a decade that still vexes a lot of people that says, it seems so clear to me, when you put them side by side, you read that "time" magazine interview and say, you want to put that guy back in the white house, but a lot of people in this country still do. >> i don't think that, actually. i'll take the opposite argument. >> oh, you -- >> i think they don't necessarily want to put him back in the white house, i think they've got two choices and there's a lot of people that are thinking, okay, maybe we'll go back to donald trump because of some of the things that are going on in the society right now. so you brought up the clip from the podcast, those protests helped donald trump. they helped richard nixon in the 1970s. and they're helping donald trump right now, whether you like it or not. and my point about october 7th

is, maybe we need to get back to the middle. there's a right and wrong, there's a decorum among us. i'm all for free speech. i'm all for appropriate protests on a college campus. but breaking and entering buildings, bringing in people that don't even belong in the college campus setting, quote/unquote anarchists, wrong, anti-semitism, wrong. we have to call it now, as opposed to the equivocation. >> but i think donald trump has a pretty good chance of being re-elected president. >> i think willie's point is they're going to choose him, but in their minds, when i talk to people about trump, it's a lesser of two evils, imagine that. i look at them and say, you didn't work with him, you didn't see the lack of curiosity, you didn't see the hostility towards people, you didn't see the constant mendacity. i mean, "the washington post"

reported 30,954 lies in four years. we thought we had some steam going we had 500 lies in the first hundred days. >> to some people, it doesn't matter. that's the problem. and also, returning back to right and wrong, rule of law, it would help if republicans on capitol hill, some of them on the house side, would actually recognize that what happened on january 6th was just as bad as what we're seeing in vandalism across the country or even on a college campus. >> in that interview with "time" magazine, trump again downplayed what happened on january 6th, to no one's surprise. speaking of right or wrong, anthony pb we're seeing trump right now in court. he's stuck, he's powerless, he can't speak, he complains about the air-conditioning, he complains about -- seems to be falling asleep with reckless abandon. someone who knows him, how hard must this be for him, someone who is always seemingly in control, can say whatever he

wants wherever he wants, suddenly he can't. what kind of a toll do you think it's taking? >> i think it's taking a toll, but what i'm surprised about is the lack of investigation around what's going on with him and his family. because eric trump showed up yesterday, but no one's in the court. family members have said they're not going to go work for him back in the white house. melania is absent. and i think this pays -- plays a bigger part of the story, and it's a bigger toll on him than people imagine. whether you like him or just like him, he worked with his family on real estate, he worked with his family on "the apprentice." he brought his family into the white house. they are not there with him. and i think that's something that bothers him way more than anybody is letting on. >> why are they not there? what's the thinking behind the choice to stand by their dad? they stood by him through so much else. >> let me put it back to you, he's on trial for a hush money

case for paying a prostitute while his wife was pregnant. let's put it as simply as that. but one thing he's good at, he knows how to coat things over, he knows how to repeat a lie repeatedly to the point where people say, okay, well, it can't really be that bad. january 6th can't really be that bad. donald trump says it's not that bad. and he's got willing accomplices, useful idiots in the congress that are also saying the same thing, even though on that day, they were running for their lives. >> you see why this is a good idea? >> yeah, it's going to go. >> it works. >> it's going to go. >> i like it. >> you can listen to new episodes of "the rest is politics u.s." every friday whenever you get your podcasts. anthony scaramucci. >> hey, it's great to meet you, by the way. >> you know how big anthony is? >> how big is he? >> i was at a mets game, walking through the parking lot -- >> he's got his own parking spot

at the ballpark. >> you know how big i am, i'm sitting on a phone book right now so i could be eye level with the camera. that's how big i am. >> does he really? >> can we borrow it? >> you can brother it. >> i can? >> mika, you can borrow it. do you want to use my suite, just give me dates, and if it's not taken, you can have it. and you can park in the much parking lot -- spot, not parking lot! >> this is why i chose him, really. >> willie, it's cute when you see it, though, right? >> it's amazing! it's a good spot, too, by the way. >> do you drive a smart car? >> i'm an italian from long island! i'm guzzling gas. >> smart car? >> i like the lamborghinis better. >> coming up, mayor eric adams will join us live from new york city hall on the heels of the police response at columbia university and city college, where dozens of gaza war protesters were arrested last night. "morning joe" will be right

back. t night. "morning joe" will be right back

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welcome back. a live look at beautiful new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." it's the second hour on this wednesday, may 1st. can you guys believe it's may? barnicle? >> time. we're ready. i love spring! the flowers will start to bloom. katty kay is still with us to make things even more perfect. and joining the conversation, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. good you showed up. >> thank you. it's a little late, but i'm here. >> were you supposed to be on last hour and you just showed up this hour? >> he's being humble. mike gets here about 4:30 in the morning, works the room, has coffee. >> the warm-ups. >> talks usually to no one. >> no decorum here, sir. anyhow, we begin this hour with new york city police clearing a

columbia university building that was seized by protesters. dozens of officers arrived on campus late last night wearing riot gear. they used a ramp to get inside hamilton hall, which was occupied by protesters overnight on monday. video shows special police units entering the building through a second-story window, including our guest, who is with us now, who was first into the building. officers say about 40 people were arrested there. the university released these images of the damage and vandalism inside hamilton hall. you can sigh overturned chaser and furniture, broken windows and smashed panes of glass. in a statement, the university explains it made the decision to call the police after consulting with security experts and the board of trustees. it reads in part, quote, the decision to reach out to the nypd was in response to the actions of the protesters, not the cause they are championing. we have made it clear that the

life of campus cannot be endlessly interrupted by protesters who violate the rules and the law. the university says it believes that the group that broke into the building was led by individuals who are not affiliated with columbia. we want to ask about that. in total, police last night arrested around 230 people. they also cleared the encampment that had been up for about two weeks. now the university is asking the nypd to stay on campus until mah 17th, which is just two days after columbia's commencement. so, a lot happening last night. >> that's quite a commentary columbia thinks it needs the nypd there for a safe and orderly commencement. in a moment, we'll speak with deputy commissioner of public information for the nypd, tariq shepard. he was on the bear cat, you just saw officers using to enter hamilton hall last night.

but first, we are joined by new york city mayor, eric adams. mayor, good morning. can you speak to the series of events last year that led columbia to ask you and the nypd to step in here and help out with the situation at hamilton hall. i know it was a last resort probably for you and also the university. what brought you there? >> really, the team, commissioner and their team, they were speaking with columbia representatives in leadership, as well as the other colleges, and it was clear after i was briefed probably two days ago, the extent of the outside agitators, as columbia university indicated in their letter to us, that we would to do something. and i really encouraged them to look at this for the safety of the students, for the facilities, and then after is breaking into hamilton hall, i think that the leadership at the school realized that we -- our concern was actually materializing and we had to

really move in for the safety of those children, and do it in the right way. and i see the independent observers saw how the police department deployed and used precision tactics with minimum amount of force, because three were children, to make sure that we could really eradicate the problem that we were seeing. >> at what point, mr. mayor, did you and the nypd view this as something more than a student-led protest? you mentioned the outside agitators, columbia talked about them in their student, they say it became clear to them that it wasn't just students inside that building. at what point was it known to you that this was something more and that there were people who maybe had plans for worse than what some of the students were up to. >> i believe that when we started seeing a footage and we were able to identify what was always my belief, based on some of the organizations and individuals, but once we were able to actually confirm that

with our intelligence division, and one of the individuals, a husband, was arrested for -- and convicted for terrorism on a federal level, once we were able to identify some of the other people, i knew that there was no way i was going to allow those children to be exploited the way they were being exploited and many people thought that this was a -- just a natural evolution of a protest. it was not. these were professionals that were here and i just want to send a clear message out that there are people who are harmful and are trying to radicalize our children. and we cannot ignore this, that these outside influences, i don't know if they're international. i think we need to look into that, as well, but there's an attempt to radicalize young people in this country. >> that's where i want to turn to, deputy, commissioner shepard about that, because as you told us when you were walking in, you were part of the operation last

night. tell us what you discovered along the way. i know you brought in a pretty staggering visual. and what do we know about these outside agitators. were they very connected with these students, did they know each other? how did this turn out the way it did and culminate in such a -- i'm glad it was peaceful, but how did it get to this point? >> the first thing, as the mayor just said, once we realized that the outside agitators would step in, we started to prepare for anything and the worst-case scenarios, which is, their job, they're not coming in to try unify anybody or to actually protest. they're coming in to create discord. >> they really wanted that moment where police and they, you know, had that interaction and maybe there could be video of them being dragged off and, you know -- and you guys did a pretty good job of containing it inside the building and just walking them out. i'm sure that's not what the plan was. >> yeah, our cops did a

phenomenal job last night of staying calm, organized, and really precise operation last night. >> tell us about this change? >> when we -- when we entered hamilton hall, this is not what students bring to school. this is what professionals bring to campuses and universities. these are heavy industrial chains that were locked with bike locks and this is what we encountered on every door inside of hamilton hall. and so in order for our emergency services group to enter into the building, they had to first cut through these chains, but also get rid of debris and barricaded doors that were barricaded with refrigerators, vending machines, chaser, you name it, they pushed it up against those doors to try to stop us from coming in. but our guys would not be stopped. they did a fantastic job of entering into that location and taking people into custody, without incident last night. they took about 40 to 50 people into custody inside of the lobby

of hamilton hall last night. >> mr. mayor, those 40 or 50 people that were taken into custody last night, what are they going to be charged with and when are they going to be charged? >> well, it is a series of items, number one, a former burglary, trespassing, criminal mischief, cameras were damaged, methodologies that were used for typical actions like this, professionals use. clearly, these children were trained on how to barricade locations, what type of locks to be used. all of methods, we have video of the type of training they used by these type of professionals. those on the lawn area, the goal is for those students, it will be summonsable offenses, but we want the schools across the city to be clear that the property of

the schools are for the students, not for those who want to come in and be disruptive to our way of life. >> can i just clarify, the 40 to 50, are they people that you know to be professional agitators -- you just referred to them as children. are they students? just so we know how many of the people that you arrested last night were professional agitators who had no affiliation with columbia university, and how many of them were students who are at columbia university. >> a good question. and we are investigating. it has been indicated by columbia when they reached out that a substantial number were outside influencers. you know, when you look at the -- wearing all black, covering your faces completely, those methodologies -- you know, our intelligence divisions study this type of behavior across the globe. we just had a team that just returned from overseas, looking at some of the methods that are being used with these actions. there is no coincidence that

you're seeing these young people across the globe being trained with the same type of individuals. and that is our concern. is more than just columbia, it's more than what we saw at city college. this needs to be a clarion call for our country. these are our children, and we can't allow them to be radicalized like children are being radicalized across the globe. >> new york city mayor eric adams, thank you so much for your time this morning. we really appreciate it. mr. deputy commissioner, in terms of physical resistance, once you got in the building, you talked about the vending machines and refrigerators, did anyone inside the building confront police physically? were there any altercations? >> there was very minimal confrontation once we decided that we were going into that building. they did have to deploy a distraction device on the first floor of hamilton hall. that made some of the resistors sort of retreat, and they were able to push through, cut the

chains, get through the debris, and then we took them into custody without incident. >> no injuries last night. >> no injuries as of now. we're still sorting through all of the prisoners that we took into custody. but as of now, what we saw was just a calm, precise operation. they did a phenomenal job last night based on what they were dealing with. >> as we said a minute ago, columbia as asked y'all to stay on campus through graduation and a couple of days after. how do you envision the nypd presence now for the next several weeks at columbia. you may have arrested some of those professionals last night, but there still be protests. not just on campus, but in the area. how do you see your presence there? >> the police commissioner and the mayor will stay in constant contact with columbia. however, we're partners in this. we don't want to see this return to what it was last night or before. however, columbia does have tyke some onus and make sure they

secure their campus. we'll be there as a partner to make sure it doesn't return. what that looks like, we haven't decided yet. >> i think the question about who the outside agitators are, how many there are, that's a longer investigation. and staying on campus could be helpful. >> yeah, absolutely. >> in that front. absolutely. we'll be a good partner nah way, but we have that way. and the nypd will be there for this entire city, 365 days a year. >> and you said yesterday, part of the reason you did decide to go in with columbia's help and assistance, is because you had recognized people that were known to you people who were not students, but people who were there to cause trouble. >> that's true. and to make it clear, columbia identified many of these individuals as non-students as well. so once they recognized that and they broke into hamilton hall, that was a clear indication that something had to be done. and they reached out in their letter and was pretty specific. >> okay.

nypd deputy commissioner to public information, tariq shepard. thank you for joining us. we really appreciate everything you're doing. still ahead on "morning joe," much more from yeesd testimony during donald trump's criminal trial. former federal prosecutor andrew wiseman joins us with his biggest takeaways from that. plus, we're digging into the former president's wide-ranging interview with "time" magazine. including what he had to say about the possibility of violence if he loses the 2024 election. you're watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. on you're watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. ♪ all eyes on me brand new drip is what they see ♪ ♪ these diamonds, diamonds on my teeth ♪ ♪ brand new whip is what they see, yeah ♪ ♪ in my bag like a bunch of groceries ♪ ♪ all this cheese and greens just come to me ♪ ♪ look at me on the go. always hustling. eyes on me ♪ ♪ all eyes on me, brand new drip is what they see ♪ ♪ these diamonds, diamonds on my teeth ♪ ♪ brand new whip is what they see, yeah ♪ freedom you can't take your eyes off. the new 2024 jeep wrangler and gladiator.

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18 past the hour. live look at the white house. welcome back. fox news has removed a six-part special from its streaming service after president joe biden's son threatened to sue the network over it. in a statement, fox writes that it removed all episodes of "the trial of hunter biden" out of a, quote, abundance of caution. in a letter last week, lawyers for hunter biden informed fox that a lawsuit against the network was imminent, largely because of false claims made about their client during that series. fox has since defended its programming, claiming the coverage was, quote, accurate and constitutionally protected. okay. in a new interview with

"time" magazine, donald trump was asked if he was concerned about violence, stemming from the outcome of this year's vote. he answered, quote, no, i don't think you'll have political violence, trump told a reporter in the first part of the interview on april 12th. two weeks later, in the second part, the reporter followed up, asking trump, what if you don't win? he responded, quote, well, i do think we're going to win. we're way ahead. i don't think they'll be able to do the things they did the last time, which were horrible, absolutely horrible. and if we don't win, you know, it depends. it all depends on the fairness of an election. so here we go. special correspondent at "vanity fair" and host of the fast podcast, she's an msnbc political political analyst. fancy that. so he's telling us what's going to happen. i always take him seriously. i mean, willie and i, we've been watching this from day one.

and joe, there's no question that he will question the results of the election. >> oh, yeah. there were so many things in this interview that he said that were horrifying and really scary. i thought the stuff he said about mifepristone, which is this pill that is used for abortion and marriage treatment, that was, you know, the fda approved it 20 years ago, the thing that is really scary about this is he is shopping this comstock act, this act from the 1800s that republicans want to bring back, to ban the mailing of medications they don't like. he is now talking about it as like a normal law, which everyone knows it's not. >> right. well, believe him. >> there's so much in this interview. in a separate part, trump said he would, quote, consider pardoning every single person convicted of january 6th-related crimes. remember, those are the people convicted of beating up cops,

for example. adding, quote, it's a two-tier system of justice. and nobody died, other than ashli. the ashli is ashli babbitt, a woman shot by police while storming the capitol. she died from her injuries. five police officers also died from injuries or trauma inflicted on them that day, which trump, of course, failed to mention. so, mike, this is -- here it is all in one place, in this "time" magazine. it was a two-part interview. he sat for a long time. and i think some people have forgotten what it was like under donald trump or don't understand what it might be like again under donald trump. and if you're sort of on the fence, and are like, i don't haven't wan to participate in this or maybe joe biden is too hold. just sit and just read it. start to finish. and ask yourself, and i don't say this as a partisan point. just sit and ask yourself, after reading that, is that the country i want to live in. is that the country i want my kids to live in. take out your politics and just read the entire interview.

that's why this november is more than just a presidential election. it's a test for america. how long do we want america to be america? because if you read the interview, it's all there. he's not kidding. it's who he is. it's who he wants to do. it's the bizarre, demented gift that he has brought to this country. i mean, the idea that if joe biden wins 60% of the vote this fall, donald trump wins 40% of the vote this fall, he will still contest the election, claim it was rigged, claim it was fixed. it's part of the bloodstream now that he has gifted this country. jonathan, you know this as well as anyone knows it. it's not going to go away. and it's going to be up to people to think about what's going to happen this november, if trump ever won a second term. >> and it almost felt like a call to arms to his supporters. stand back, stand bee. this message to the proud boys,

where they're like, yeah, there likely will be violence again if i were to lose. and molly, you mentioned the mifepristone, the other part on the abortions -- and today is the day that the florida abortion law, six-week ban goes into effect, where trump suggests that he would be okay with red states, in his words, tracking women's pregnancies to make sure they follow through, it would seem to be, deliver the child. i mean, that is just pure dystopia. >> there are so many things in this interview that are dystopian. he wants deportation camps. i mean, this is stuff that -- i mean, what i thought was so shocking is he was admitting thing -- the monitoring periods, the monitoring women's cycles is right out of handmaid's tale. >> you say shocking, but it's not shock, it's trump. >> i have not seen admit him stuff like this, like deportation camps. >> and honestly, it's hard to

continue to be shocked, because we have become dissensitized, and that's exactly how a democracy dies. i'm not sounding highfalutin or dramatic. this is where we are. it's a choice. also in those interviews, trump was asked, if re-elected, would he instruct the attorney general to prosecute state officials who are prosecuting him? listen carefully. the former president said, quote, we're going to look at a lot of things like they're looking, but that no, i don't want to do that. er when pressed if he would instruct the attorney general to prosecute alvin bragg, trump replied, quote, we are going to have great retribution through success. we're going to make our country successful again. our retribution is going to be through success of our country. while that doesn't seem to make any sense, anyone who has been on the other end of donald

trump's rants and hatred knows exactly what that means. trump was then asked if he would fire a u.s. attorney who did not prosecute someone he ordered him to prosecute, trump said, it depends on the situation, honestly. when asked if he would appoint a special prosecutor to go after biden and his family, trump said, well, it depends what happens with the supreme court. he went on to say that the supreme court did not find presidential immunity applies to trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election, then biden would be, quote, prosecuted for all of his crimes, because he's committed many crimes. >> these are the crimes that the committee, that's committed its work to finding has not comer a committee spent millions and millions of dollars and many, many months trying to get to the bottom of the biden crime family, and as mr. comer himself said, a lot of smoke, no fire

yet. >> joining us now, nbc news legal analyst and former federal prosecutor, andrew wiseman. i want to focus on the legal questions and retribution that donald trump is talking about in that interview. tell us what the future looks like if trump wins the presidency in this realm? >> mika, your comments about democracy are now reflected in the discussion we're about to have and it is not hyperbole, what you have been saying. what separates us from countries like russia, in part, is the fact that we have a separate department of justice. it is not an arm of the white house. the idea that you're going to go after your political adversaries and order prosecutors to do that without facts, and in contrast to law, is -- it is such a huge contrast to not just joseph biden, but to the way that

republicans and democratic presidents have operated with respect to the department of justice. it has to be independent. and i truly think that most americans understand that. you do not want politicized prosecution. and although there are conspiracy theorists who think that joseph biden is behind all of these prosecutions, it's simply not the case and it wasn't the case with other administrations either. that's something that donald trump with this autocratic vision of complete control of every part of government, with no checks and balances is completely antithetic to what it means to be in america versus being in a banana republic. >> right, andrew, if you try to explain this to someone who plans to donald trump, they stop you halfway through, come on, he's not going to do that. he's not going to do that.

can you explain like a scenario in how even without facts, donald trump can be contribution times 100. >> let's not focus on what he will do and the speculation. there's lots of reason to take him seriously, but let's focus on the fact that he's saying it. someone who is saying something that is antithetical to american democracy, regardless of whether it would have been a republican or a democratic presidency is something important right now. in other words, you don't have to look at the future. he is saying something that is simply not something that you want an executive branch leader. but second, if you're looking for a president, look at john durham. that is a special counsel who is appointed under his attorney general barr, who brought two

prosecutions that were unanimously by a jury rejected. but those people who were prosecuted had to go through an investigation and a trial, and that meant 24 jurors unanimously found that there was not proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and rejected john durham's theory. and those are examples of political prosecutions. andy mccabe, the former acting head of the fbi, was again subjected to an investigation, where he -- it's clear that the grand jury couldn't even find that there was probable cause to indict him. and that is a remarkable thing. and again, that is what happens when you have a department of justice that just does political bidding. and i know he likes to say that that goes on all the time, and that's simply not true.

the department of justice and all of these sort of discussions we've had about people feeling frustrated by merrick garland, and thinking that he should have acted sooner, all of that is because, he is independent of the white house and that's what it really needs to be if you're not going to have a rule of law that is subservient to the executive branch leader, and that is to the president. you want to have an independent department of justice that makes decisions based on facts and law, and not based on politics. >> and of course, the irony of all of this, he's in court now before the supreme court pleading for presidential immunity, but he wants joe biden locked up for alleged and imagined crimes if he becomes president again. so andrew, let's turn to the trial that's taking place, a day off in court here in lower manhattan today. will be back in the courtroom tomorrow. the hush money trial, criminal trial with donald trump sitting there yesterday, occasional dozing off, according to lisa

ruben, who was here a few minutes ago, but how significant was the testimony of mr. davidson, the former attorney for stormy daniels, and for karen mcdougal, who received the checks from michael cohen. what did we learn yesterday? >> well, one of the things we learned that's relevant to the discussion we just had is that donald trump was engaged in essentially ground zero of fake news, that he was trying to distort what the electorate learned about him, and about his opponents. and keith davidson strongly corroborated david pecker, the head of the "national enquirer," who, just to be clear who david pecker is, he is a friend of donald trump. this is not coming from outside the tent, this is a witness who said, i am still very close to donald trump. he is a mentor to me and described creating fake stories about his adversaries and

catching and killing stories that would denigrate donald trump. and keith davidson, the lawyer for karen mcdougal and stormy daniels, corroborated up one side and down the other what it is that david pecker said in that score, and made it absolutely clear that the actions that he was taking, he understood were to benefit the campaign and to elect donald trump. so much so that he is on an email after the election saying, oh, my god, essentially, what have we done? understanding that what his efforts were with respect to both karen mcdougal and stormy daniels, was all about electing donald trump. it had nothing to do, for instance, with melania. this is not some personal issue, that is going on. >> so they are very slowly and methodically building the case. just curious what you thought about the judge's order on the

ruling on the gag order. he obviously had to pay the fine. but the last part of it, when it talks about the options, if he does it again. what did you make of that? how serious do you think the judge is about using incarceration? and from watching trump's behavior, i feel he probably will go to the line, but won't break it. but is the possibility of incarceration real in your mind? >> you know, i take the judge at his word, where he said, look, i wish i had some other option under the law, but the way the law works is that i can only give a maximum fine of $1,000 and then the next option i have is jail. he said, i wish that i had a way to find somebody more commensurate with their wealth, and he talks about that, but he said, that's not the law. so he made it clear that he has an absolute duty to protect the

system, protect jurors, protect witnesses, and that he will do that if warranted by trump's behavior. so he made it very clear that if this continues to happen, that if donald trump is jailed, it will be because of donald trump's choices, not the judge's choices. but i think one of the reasons that he's reluctant to do that is just think about how damaging the testimony was of david pecker, the testimony that we just talked about with respect to keith davidson and the other evidence that's come in. donald trump would like nothing more than the stories to be about his incarceration and not about the actual substance of the trial. and so, you know, the judge is trying to figure out, how do i protect the system, but not give him what he wants, which is a distraction from the actual evidence in the case. because we know donald trump has tried to avoid this trial because he does not want facts

and law to be in front of the american people. >> yeah, that's always very disturbing for him. former federal prosecutor, andrew weismann, thank you very much for being on this morning. we look forward to more coverage from you. up next, we'll dig more into donald trump's comments on abortion, and president biden's response. plus, florida's six-week abortion ban is now in effect today. democratic senator elizabeth warren will join us to weigh in on that and the role reproduct i have rights will play in the 2024 election. "morning joe" is coming right back. 24 election. "morning joe" is coming right back

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20 minutes before the top of the hour. we're back now with more from donald trump's interview with "time" magazine. the former president was asked about his stance on abortion issues and he mostly dodged the questions. he was asked whether women should be able to get the abortion pill mifepristone. trump said he has an opinion on that, but would not explain. adding that he has strong views. and that he would probably release it over the next week. trump was then pressed further on the issue, who highlighted that some of the former president's allies want to use the comstock act to block the mailing of abortion drugs. trump replied, quote, i will be making a statement on that over

the next 14 days. he also avoided giving an answer on whether states should monitor women's pregnancies, so they can know if a woman has had the procedure after they are banned in a state. trump said, quote, i think they might do that again, you'll have to speak to the individual states. the former president then said it was irrelevant whether he was comfortable with women being prosecuted for getting abortions after a ban, because states are going to make those decisions. good lord. the biden/harris campaign released a new video this morning in response to donald trump's comments about abortion to "time" magazine. >> folks. did you hear what donald trump just said to "time" magazine? it's shocking. after bragging about overturning roe and saying women should be punished for accessing reproductive health care, he said states should be able to prosecute women and appears perfectly fine with signing a

national ban that would take away ivf access. there seems to be no limit to how invasive trump would let the state be. this should be a decision between women and her doctor and the governor should get out of people's lives. >> molly, i appreciate that from the president. this has been a terrible, terrible nightmare for women across america since the overturning of roe. you may be pro-life, but you also may be learning that abortion rights do impact your health. maybe you didn't know how the overturning of roe might have affected your life, but now women are more in danger, if they are pregnant, and women who need any type of procedure that is close to an abortion or even like one, but not for, they are in trouble. they are in danger. they're not going to get the care they need. and you're marrying now from trump, that he will go further. you're hearing it kind of muddled into other things that he's saying, sort of letting other people do his dirty work, but this could be a horrendous place for women to live, this

country. the united states of america, at the rate he's going. >> and it already is in texas and in tennessee -- >> florida today. >> florida today. >> i mean, what you're seeing here is women in the first trimester cannot get prenatal care, because doctors are afraid that if they have miscarriages -- and this is not completely true everywhere, but it's starting to be a real trend, doctors are worried that if they have miscarriages, they will get blamed. you have doctors practicing medicine in a defensive way, because they're scared of the federal government, right? they're scared of the state governments. because what donald trump has done by overturning roe is empowered these red state legislators to go after doctors. and so women are getting much less good medical care, and pregnant women, too. this doesn't even have to do with getting abortions. this has to do with getting actual medical care. >> it is more dangerous now to be pregnant in america than it ever has been. and i know the men at the table

with me all have children and have wives who have been through this. we're not super heroes. it is a really scary experience and you want access to all the health care that you might need, mike. >> you know what might be even more scary than that, which is a legitimately scary prospect, the idea that we're talking about someone in public life or a political party that's one of two political parties, major political parties, is talking about monitoring women's pregnancies. monitoring women's pregnancies. as the pregnancy proceeds, to see if she's trying to get an abortion or whatever. and we talk about it as if, oh, well, what's next on the agenda, instead of coming to a full stop, and saying, what?! >> and let me tell you why that happens. let me go to our next guest, joining me now, senator elizabeth warren of massachusetts, she serves as an advisory board member for the

biden/harris campaign. and senator warren, i'll take what mike was saying and send it your way, because some of the things that donald trump is talking about, monitoring a pregnancy, some of the things that have already been done, a six-week ban in florida! it is way dangerous to be pregnant in florida or to need any type of health care in florida if you are a woman starting today. but i'll pose the question to you that i asked to andrew weismann before. mike starts talking about the craziness of pregnancies being monitored. and someone who supports donald trump, perhaps in this conversation will say, oh, come on, he'll never do that! come on! you guys are crazy. you're radical! you're just like, over the top! i'm really tired of hearing all of this trump crazy stuff, because it's never going to happen. senator, your thoughts? >> so i look at it this way. this all started with donald trump, and if donald trump makes it back to the white house, it just multiplies and gets worse and worse and worse.

you know, donald trump bragged about overturning roe v. wade. he is the one who put that extremist supreme court in place. and he continues, when he's in front of the right audience, to brag about that. the rest of us are now living with wave after wave of what happens when roe goes away. the 10-year-old girl who is raped and can't get an abortion in the state where she lives. the women who have been partway through a miscarriage and can't receive the medical care that they need. the doctors, as you rightly pointed out, who are practicing defensive medicine. and now we just see the other pieces on the horizon, that the extremists in the trump party are calling for and starting to line up. donald trump wants to get re-elected. and he understands that it is

extremely unpopular, what he is doing. this is not what americans want. and so he's hoping, as you showed in that interview, to walk away from it just a little, until the election. but at the same time, keep encouraging his followers, who are laying out the plans, to control women's lives. for me, this is one of the biggest contrast between joe biden and donald trump. donald trump is the one who is responsible for getting rid of roe v. wade and all of the calamitous effects from that. joe biden is the one who will lead us to make roe v. wade law of the land again, so that women will be protected. they and their doctors will make decisions, not some politician. >> and donald trump has landed on the defense for all of this. well, all i did was help to return it to the states. well, we're seeing now what that means when you return it to the states, state by state.

senator, i want to ask you, given what you just laid out and given everything we've been talking about in this incredibly clarifying, crystallizing interview with "time" magazine on abortion and all kinds of issues, there are many democrats, there are many progressives, frustrated for a variety of reasons, with president biden. you have a very large following, particularly among progressives. what would be your message to those who say, i don't like either of my choices or i think joe biden is too hold, or i'm just going to stay home or find a third party. what would be the message to your vast number of supporters going into the fall? >> i do look at this as contrast. we are in a world now where we have two people who are running for president, both of whom have been president before. one of them is donald trump. two, two signature the achievements in his four years as president, one was overturning roe v. wade and the other was $2 trillion in tax cuts, mostly succeed up by

millionaires, billionaires, and giant corporations. who has joe biden been out there fighting for? first, he's made very clear that as president, he has continued to fight to protect access to abortion. and by the way, i want to underscore that for a minute. he's not just saying, give me a house, give me a senate, and we'll make roe v. wade law of the land, he's in that fight right now. u.s. military who are stationed in states that ban abortion, joe biden has made sure that they will still have access to reproductive care. the veterans administration has started expanding to abortion services and joe biden is in the courts right now, making sure that at least expanded to abortion services, and joe biden is in the courts right now making sure that we are making the argument to keep medication abortion everywhere. in addition to that, who is joe

biden fighting for. look at what he has done. $35 insulin, and canceling student loan debt for 4.3 million people across the country already. getting rid of junk fees. passing the biggest climate package in the history of the world, paid for by a 15% minimum corporate tax on the giant corporations that have been paying nothing. in other words, somebody who is out there fighting every single day for hard-working people, for people just trying to build a more secure future for themselves. that's quite a contrast, and we need everybody in this fight for the future of america. >> senator, the biden campaign is suggesting that is the justices that did overturn roe v. wade. many schools out west and in the

heartland as well, and your thoughts about what the administrations have done and the police have done, and somebody who, as noted, has a lot of progressive and support and are you concerned young voters because of this issue will break away from the president? >> i am grateful we live in a country and people can raise their voices and make them heard, and it's crucial any efforts at a protest be peaceful and no individuals be attacked or feel threatened and this is what the dialogue is about, and we need to keep an eye on what is happening in the middle east, and it's long past time to get a cease-fire, and we have got to open up for humanitarian aid. >> yeah. >> literally thousands of people are on the brink of starvation. we have got to get that

humanitarian aid in. it's time to get the hostages back home. they have been held for months and months and months. nobody knows their medical condition. they have got to be brought back home. the biggest part, the united states must give a big shove to both parties to come to the negotiating table, work out a two-state solution where two peoples can live side by side with dignity and self-respect and self determination. that's how we need to move forward. >> that is a big challenge, senator elizabeth warren. thank you for coming on the show this morning. we are always so grateful to have you on. thank you. >> thank you. still ahead, the futures board in the red this morning ahead on the decision on interest rates from the federal reserve. plus, we will explain why a

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20 seconds left in game five. maxi fires. tied game. 8.1 to play. 41 for maxi.

three seconds left. at the horn, it's blocked. >> tyrese maxi, a name that will live in square garden in imtpau me. seven points in the final 25 points of regulation, including that three-pointer that tied the game from the logo, joining the caitlin clark range and sent it into overtime. the sixers came back to beat the knicks in overtime, and the first round series now shifts back to philly for game six tomorrow night. this says it all, this photograph of the great jalen brunson who did his part. it was a stunner. now we are even. still probably favored to win the series but things get

tighter now. >> i don't mean to trigger you, but that was maxey who hit that. they could win in philly. >> i thought we broke their spirits by winning the game if philly in game four, and we win here and it's over, but now they have life. we only hope the fans take over in philly. >> decades of baggage. >> yeah. >> what about the bees? >> how about this for major league baseball in phoenix. this is scary. chase field force add 90-minute delay between the diamondbacks and dodgers. >> look at the bees. >> he got the invitation, hey,

come and throw out the ceremonial first pitch. >> the beekeeper. now, you know, he had to go in there and get the queen to move the swarm. >> i had bees growing up and my mom had lots of beehives -- >> and the diamondbacks won with a walk-off. columbia university, it was cleared last night of protesters by the nypd. we're back in one minute. n one e this is our future, ma. godaddy airo. creates a logo, website, even social posts... in minutes! -how? -a.i. (impressed) ay i like it! who wants to come see the future?! get your business online in minutes with godaddy airo

of course when trump has not been asleep, he's been violating his gag order by attacking the witnesses and prosecutors and jurors, and judge merchan issued his ruling on those violations, fining trump $9,000. i know, $9,000 may not seem like a lot to a successful businessman, but what about to trump? >> oh, my. we will have all the developments from donald trump's hush-money trial, criminal trial, just ahead. msnbc legal analyst, lisa ruben, was inside the courtroom and will join us in a moment. also, we will go through trump's interview with "time" magazine. the former president was asked about january 6th, abortion

policy and the upcoming election. it's worth a listen or a read. plus, we will bring you the latest out of the middle east including israeli prime minister netanyahu's defining comments on a certain invasion. it's may 1st, everybody. i love may. >> birthday eve. >> yeah, birthday eve eve, willie. we have this birthday thing. anyway, along with willie and me, we have the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire. >> we have to share. >> yeah, we share a cake and everything. >> you were on what? >> seth meyers. >> we love you, seth. >> yeah, he's brilliant. i thought you did a good job. were you nervous? >> no, i have been on it before.

we talked about the trump trial and talked about the campus unrest, which i know we will here again. behind the scenes, we expressed worry about the boston red sox. >> did you sleep last night? >> i always get a little sleep. >> and also with us for bbc news, katty kay. police used a ram to get inside hamilton hall, which was occupied by protesters overnight on monday. video shows special police units entering the building through a second-story window. about 40 people were arrested there, walked out calmly. the university released these images of the vandalism, you can

see broken windows. the university explains it made the decision to call police after consulting with security experts and the board of trustees. it reads in part, quote, the decision to reach out to the tphrpd was in response to the actions of the protesters, not the cause they are championing. we made it clear that the life of campus cannot be endlessly interrupted by protesters that violate the rules and the law. the university says it believes the group that broke into the building was led by individuals who are not affiliated with columbia. we will talk about that more. in total, police arrested last night nearly 100 people, and they cleared the encampment that had been up for two weeks and now the university is asking the nypd to stay on campus until may 17th, which is just two days after columbia's commencement,

and i want to point out, you didn't see people getting dragged out screaming. i think they were all over this, and they outmanned it and outnumbered it and made sure it was a calm event. >> yeah, columbia university said we told you this would happen. >> they went in through the second-floor window. >> yeah, didn't have to use tear glass, and they cleared it easily for the nypd. let's bring in tom winter. let's talk about how it got to that point. what was the moment in which columbia said we need to bring in the nypd, who had been there outside on broadway and different places. >> to be clear, the nypd was intent on letting this to keep going, and they needed a letter

from columbia inviting them on campus, because if no crime was being committed, the nypd can't stroll on to private property and conduct police operations, and that's something they needed to be careful about. what happened was overnight the hamilton hall incident where somebody snuck into the building and then stayed in the building and let individuals in, and the nypd working with columbia said, wait, these are not students inside the hamilton hall, and this presents a problem because these individuals have been on our radar for several years, and they are anarchist types, and they are not pro palestinian, but the idea is this is an effort to engage in violence,

and the nypd were thinking they were co-opting the students and the protests and they overturned the chairs and i look at additional images and say this was a way to funnel police into certain rooms and cover up windows so police could not see where the individuals were inside of there. that was a primary concern. i think last night's 6:00 p.m.'s press conference was aimed at the public but aimed at columbia university, hey, there are concerns here. >> and this operation inside the building was not led by students, and is that what nypd -- i thought columbia was letting students off the hook, and is that the assessment by the nypd it was more of the anarchist than the students or do we not know? >> it's unclear because some of

the surveillance cameras were damaged so they were not sure of the makeup inside there. you saw the ramps they used, and it's called the mobile adjustable ramp system, and the nypd has invested in this as a way to get inside the vertical building should a standoff occur. based on some of the imaged we saw, the opening of the building, the entrance was locked. >> at 9:00, mayor adams and the police commissioner will hold a news conference and we will learn more about that. now, shifting to the west coast, there's ucla, and that looks more chaotic. what do we know about that? >> the lapd has been called to campus there. obviously they have a situation that appears they may have counter-protesters mixed up in all this, so that's something

that is concerning when you have two groups clashing, and then you have potential clashes with police. it's not just east coast and west coast and universities or colleges associated with, you know, liberal viewpoints. we have seen protests up and down and across the entire country. i think it underscores two things, one, the kids are not all right. the kids graduating under the four-year graduation course, they graduated on zoom. >> yeah, we need a graduation to happen. >> you guys talk about this all the time. the lack of interests, the lack of students today in younger generations feel that politicians and people in the

country are listening to them. you saw this cause really being taken up in a way across the country, across political spectrums on campuses we have not seen before. two, i can't quite say where this is coming from to respect my grievance with some of the folks, and once people believe violence is a way to solve problems politically, that's a problem that can last for generations. we have obviously seen january 6th, and people believe that was the cause. i was somewhat heartened last night that, both, from a police perspective and protester perspective, we did not see widespread violence at columbia, and the kids said enough is enough, they are here to make arrests. >> yeah, those scenes we are

watching from ucla look more chaotic and violent from that scene, and the administration at columbia said they didn't feel they had a choice. they hope they can restore some semblance of calm on campuses. everybody is recognizing, you have conventions coming up this summer, and the election coming up in november. the political atmosphere, as you point out, tom, it's volatile. >> yeah, i think there's a political fallout, certainly those in the white house and biden campaign are watching, and trump is watching this as well and blaming it on biden, the unrest, and we know biden has problems with young voters that

don't like what is going on in gaza, and it's may and we are a long way from the election. if the war wound down before now and november, this will fade. graduations come in two weeks, and president biden is scheduled to give a couple commencement addresses and there are worries about what could happen at those events. >> say there was a cease-fire tomorrow and the ongoing military operations by israel or any sort of retaliation by hamas ended tomorrow, i think the concern in the law enforcement community, from what i have seen, is that it's another ideology that will be picked up certainly among the anarchist groups, they don't care what the ideology is, but among students because of the satisfaction, they have two generations older than them and not speaking to them, and the next thing in the jukeboxes of grievances they have concerns about, perhaps

quite legitimate concerns about, will be picked up. >> for example, students for justice in palestine, that group was outspoken before the war, and it's not about how the war is being prosecuted but how they feel about israel. we have an agreement at brown where the students and school came to an agreement and broke up the encampment and they will discuss in the fall the investment in israel, and it looks like in some places, it has run its course. virginia tech, north carolina, they are seeing these scenes. do the law enforcement and universities feel like this has legs and will continue through the graduations? >> at some point, kids are going home and summer internships, and

what they communicated to the new york city police department, we would like you here through graduation, and one of the concerns about some of the anarchist groups that they are not just in new york city and they travel around is they will co-opt any sort of movement, and columbia shutdown and we will move to -- pick a university. give it a week and they won't be as strict on security. at some point, though, i think it runs its course for the semester. whatever the next thing is will be the next thing and i think that's coming, you know, as late as this fall. >> we will be following that. tom winter, thank you very much for jumping in this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," we will turn to trump's hush-money trial. the big takeaways from yesterday, and there were a lot. just when the testimony veered

into snooze land along came keith davidson, former attorney for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. that's next on "morning joe." in.

♪ ♪ donald trump's criminal trial will resume tomorrow following a day of pivotal rulings and testimony from multiple witnesses. yesterday began with judge merchan ruling trump violated his gag order on nine separate occasions, fining him a total of $9,000, and warning the former president that future violations could land him in jail. i think that may have been the lead coming out of that. the judge also granted trump's request to attend his son,

barron, his graduation. and then there was the testimony of a shell company that was used to pay adult film actress, stormy daniels, the $130,000 hush-money payment to keep her quiet about an alleged affair with trump. >> but keith davidson said he was subpoenaed to testify in the case and got himself immunity. he's the former attorney for stormy daniels and former playboy model, karen mcdougal. davidson represented daniels and mcdougal, and he testified he believed the money being given to his clients ultimately was coming from trump but could not recall cohen saying he was negotiating on trump's behalf. court is in recess today. let's bring in former litigator

and msnbc legal correspondent, lisa ruben. keith davidson did not establish that direct line of intent, and didn't say cohen saying this is for donald trump. what is the impact of that? >> he said he understood ultimately that the money would come from donald trump, and that was a hard-fought admission. the assistant d.a. leading the questioning, a totally skilled trial practitioner ran into his first roadblocks yesterday in trying to get that from keith davidson, and trying to establish it was not just his understanding, and even after cohen got frustrated and said god blank it, i will pay it myself. at the end of the day, he understood that money was going to come from trump. one of the ways he understood that is cohen, part of his

identity is that he worked for donald trump. he never let you forget it. it was always clear, whatever cohen was doing he was doing for trump at trump's behest. he could not make the payment without trump's knowledge and permission is the impression that davidson left us with. >> they are making a point to go step by step, witness by witness, of every part of this transaction. is anything at this point surprising you in terms of the detail here and how much they are pinning down how this money got back to michael cohen through trump? >> what is surprising me is how painstaking it is. >> exactly. >> and how much scaffolding they are building around the case, and many of our viewers are

familiar, but what we didn't know, how many people touched the transaction. >> you know, just in our coverage of trump over the years, and lemire you would see this, he doesn't email and covers his tracks. there's no nothing touches him, and this was different because there were lots of texts and emails around him and more people involved than i expected. i thought it would be michael cohen and ultimately the people that received the money, but, no, this is a scheme with multiple participants. >> i was interested yesterday in how davidson said after the "access hollywood" tape came out, how suddenly everything changed then. describe why that is important for the prosecution? >> yeah, after that tape comes

oupt there's an understanding that even though the stormy daniels story had been in circulation since 2011, and his first interaction with cohen goes back to that story in 2011, and cohen was furious it got into the public domain. the way in which those two people interacted, i thought it was fascinating. davidson did not want to be part of this and he tried to extricate himself on this and because of the urgency felt by cohen, he said just when i thought i was out, i was back in. >> did they play the tape? >> they read portions of the transcript from trump in the e. jean carroll case. why it's relative, it's because this is my x handle, and i was

married to melania during this period of time, and even getting the basic admissions through the horse's mouth so to speak, is through the prosecutors. >> hearing these things read out loud, sometimes is worse than seeing them on tape. >> yeah, extraordinary cringe worthy, and impactful. speaking of foundations, let's talk about the gag order and the judge holding trump in contempt. it's only $9,000, and for trump that's not a lot of money and for other people it would be. tell us why it's important that the judge did this. is he sending a signal, i will treat you like any other defendant. forecast what that could mean going forward, he's got another hearing tomorrow on the same issue, and more potential violations and could it mean trump ending up in jail? >> it could. tomorrow's hearing is not

predicated on that notice. the things we are going to talk about tomorrow are things trump already has done, so you can't say trump had fair warning when he said these things, and merchan is saying to the public and everybody else, it's not enough that the statute only permits me to fine this guy $1,000 per, and in this situation it doesn't hurt this guy yet my hands are tied. my two options are jail or $1,000 per violation. the other thing where it hinges has nothing to do with trump at all, and there's a paragraph that says it's not on me that the guy is the gop presumptive nominee, and my understanding of

what counts as a violation in the future will also be contingent on how other people relevant to the matter behave, in other words, if michael cohen or stormy daniels use the gag order as protection as you take swipes at him, and i am sensitive to the defense todd blanche has raised, he's entitled to protect himself in the public domain. >> he wants people to behave themselves and not mouth off. >> were you in the courtroom? >> i was for part of the day yesterday. yep. >> let's talk atmospherics. donald trump alleged to have dozed off again, and i can't judge if he was sleeping or not -- >> she might be able to. >> it's cold in there.

he has complained about that a lot. >> it wasn't yesterday. >> it theoretically keeps you awake. anyway, tell us about donald trump in the courtroom yesterday? >> i will tell you from where i sat in the overflow yesterday, donald trump appeared to be a sleep or resting more often than not, particularly during the first part of the day where we heard from witnesses who were there as mostly records custodians. on the other hand, where this subject matter is very clearly donald trump and what donald trump might have been thinking, like we have seen, for example, with keith davidson's testimony, or david pecker, donald trump is sitting there and appraising and watching. i would say he's selectively choosing when to engage, but during the morning, in particular, this is not a person who was very interested or

maybe -- >> did eric being there make a difference? >> it was sad to watch. i notice at times, and eric trump was looking up at the documentation through which the deal was done, including between emails with cohen and davidson, and the contract between peggy peterson, watching eric trump watching those documents, as a human being, that struck me. these people are people, too. >> lisa ruben, thank you so much for your ongoing coverage. coming up on "morning joe" -- >> i got a lot of problems with you people! now, you are going to hear about it. >> how a sense of grievance have come to dominate so much of american life, especially politics.

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welcome back. house democrats announced yesterday they will save speaker mike johnson should congresswoman marjorie taylor greene move forward with her threat to oust him. in a joint statement democratic leadership said at this moment upon completion of the national security work time has come to turn the page on this chapter of pro putin republican obstruction. we will vote to table representative marjorie taylor greene's motion to vacate the chair if she invokes the motion, it will not succeed. in choosing to table the effort

to oust johnson, democrats will avoid a direct public vote on the matter. in response, greene posted on social media, if the democrats want to elect him speaker and some republicans want to support the democrat's chosen speaker, i will give them the chance to do it. in response to greene, the chair of the house democratic caucus, pete aguilar, had this to say. >> i am not trying to get in the head of marjorie taylor greene. i don't know what goes on in there. >> well, that's -- yeah, i think all agreed. joining us now, white house correspondent, julie cirkan. i guess the fine line, the balance, that democrats who are

supporting him, and i understand the transaction here, but mike johnson has some basic philosophical constitutional disagreements with the democrats? >> he does, mika. yesterday he looked caught off guard when the statement came out, and he was in the middle of the republican press conference and reporters pressed him on this when this news came out, and he said he did not do any side deals, and he's a conservative life-long republican and that will come into play, and if marjorie taylor greene continues to do this, and she is holding a press conference in about two hours that i plan to attend, and she will put forward her plans on this motion to oust speaker johnson, and many republicans have berated marjorie taylor greene's potential plans, and

she can directly link this and connect it and say it's a republican speaker that will only stay in power if democrats move to save him, and that statement from democratic leadership was a gift to her yesterday. it's going to be a fine needle for democrats to thread here especially if johnson turns around and puts messaging bills on the floor, and puts them in a hard spot. we are months away from the election. if they are going to do it once, it doesn't mean they will do it again. some say johnson is already weakened by the comment from democrats they will save them. the statement would have been a surprise yesterday but it's a -- it was a long time coming. >> and johnson said if you want

to oust me, come at me, and marjorie taylor greene also got what she wanted out of it, she will have a press conference and raise money and do all the things she does, and does the speaker feel like his job is safe and he survived this? >> he feels like his job is safe for now. you will remember, willie, he went to mar-a-lago to seek president trump's blessing a week before he decided to put the ukraine bill on the floor. trump stayed out of that. it's notable. if he wants to put his thumb on the scale, he has no problem doing that and if he doesn't want to say anything he opens the floor to vote how they want and for johnson to put the aid bill on the floor. all of these must-pass items for this congress, that's all through and finished. johnson did the heart part that mccarthy really couldn't do. he is well-liked among democrats. he's somebody that worked behind

the scenes and didn't have a big public profile and didn't have a chance for democrats to grow to dislike him despite his conservative record, and he's in a tough spot but that doesn't mean he's not cornered on a weekly basis for hard line republicans on the floor. i spoke to some republicans that may not like johnson but remembers what happened back in the fall, where there was a circus behind the scenes in which jeffries, the democratic leader ended up getting more votes than the republicans did for speaker. that being said, we are closer to the election now and republican donors don't wanted to see this happen again. coming up live, we are going live to wisconsin where trump is set to hold a rally today. we have that straight ahead on "morning joe."

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so the white house views a potential cease-fire in gaza as perhaps the only way to tamp down some of the unrest we have been seeing on college campuses nationwide. u.s. officials and arab immediate eighters. israel is reportedly planning to send a delegation in cairo in the coming days to secure a deal. >> in the meantime, antony blinken is there this morning meeting with benjamin netanyahu in jerusalem. netanyahu plans to move forward with the rafah operation with or

without a deal. and that could undermine the efforts to secure the hostages. joining us, richard haus. we will put the knicks to the side for a moment because it's too painful, and we will talk about the meeting between antony blinken and netanyahu. when netanyahu comes out yesterday and says we can meet all you want and tell me about the cease-fire deal, we are going into rafah one way or another. what is secretary blinken trying to do today with the prime minister? >> netanyahu has to say that, because he has defined success as eliminating hamas, and the coalition is looking at that, and the problem is a temporary cease-fire is not what hamas wants. they want an open-ended

cease-fire which is what bibi netanyahu can't agree to. it's not on the question of whether they go into rafah but when and how. there's going in and there's going in. do they wait, do they go in big? what the administration wants is they want them to go into rafah in a careful way. >> it was suggested yesterday that netanyahu, it's a warning, we are going to deal the first and then maybe navigate going forward. i thought it was striking kirby

cannot sound -- >> we don't know how many hostages are still alive, and hamas doesn't want to admit that. hamas wants an end of the israeli occupation, and that's not going to happen. i am skeptical. i would love to be wrong. it's hard. you have so many players here and, jonathan, it's hard to make confident predictions. if it were a deal, it's not a solution. it buys us a little time. a lot of the basic questions are still there about rafah and governance and the day after and the violence in the west bank. this is not the answer to what ails the middle east. it's not. coming up, global citizen is out with a new push to end global poverty. they will not give up. we will get a preview of this week's star-packed summit. that's still ahead on "morning joe." joe. life, diabetes, there's no slowing down.

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welcome back. global citizen now, the summit that drives action to end world poverty is returning to new york city today and tomorrow.

the public and private sector will come together for two dynamic days focused on creating a world where everyone's basic needs are fulfilled. can you imagine that? this year's event will feature major attendees including the presidents of rwanda and botswana, hue jackson, dakota johnson and michelle yo, padma laksmi and many more. joining me to talk about the event we have the co-founder and ceo of global citizen, hugh evans. also fran katsudis is back with us from cisco and co-chair of the global citizen board and the ceo of farmers on fire who is also a global citizen prize winner from kenya. it's nice to meet you. welcome to "morning joe." hugh, i will start with you.

ending world poverty, it all sounded so big at the beginning, like can you even -- are you getting closer to being able to imagine your goals? >> well, firstly, thank you, mika, for having us on your program this morning. really the eradication of extreme poverty is the greatest challenge of our generation as nelson mandella said. when i was born in 1983, 52% of the planet lived in extreme poverty, plummeted to less than 12% before the pandemic so we saw amazing progress but obviously we've seen a set back. that's what today is all about with global citizen now. we're calling together world leaders, business leaders, philanthropists, artists and most importantly our 12 million global citizens from all around the world to drive urgent action to end extreme poverty within our lifetime. and our whole focus of this year's summit is to achieve three big objectives, firstly, we want to drive investment into africa because we know that we need the g20 to step up urgently

and increase their concessional loans to the 75 world's poorest countries at 0 or low interest rates so that they can ultimately eradicate extreme poverty through a fund called ida. secondly we want to protect the amazon, we have many leaders across brazil coming to the summit today all focused on trying to raise a billion dollars to reforest the amazon ahead of the cop meeting. finally, we want to honor global citizen prize winners and we're also tonight awarding the cisco youth leadership award which honors an incredible young leader who is using technology to change the world for good. >> i can't wait to hear your story. fran, cisco is helping with this and i'm curious because fran shows up to make sure it's all going good. >> she does, every time. >> rolls up her sleeves and gets involved. how can companies like cisco help with these goals and how is it going so far? >> you know, i think when we look at some of the biggest

challenges and some of the issues that hugh mentioned i think the realization that we have is that there is no one organization that can drive this type of change. so it really comes down to the public and the private partnership with the engagement of communities around the world, and i think global citizen has become such a powerful convener which i think is so incredibly important and allows us to come together on issues like education, allows us to come together on issues where we together can have impact. what i find so fascinating and i think for every company you have to find what makes sense for you in your purpose, we know that technology is a huge part of global citizen and how you activate 12 million people. for us at cisco, technology, we've recognized, is how people connect, how they have access to the digital economy, how they work on their jobs, health care, and so this connection i think is incredibly important as well and something that we're committed to working on

together. >> and tech education as it's always changing, which is what you guys are incredibly involved with in many places around the world. >> that's right. and i think the only other thing i would say is together we have put the spotlight on youth that are doing amazing things around the world. tonight the award will be going to ricardo alba torres who is working so hard to ensure that underrepresented communities have access to water. what he's doing that i love is that he's both building a business and doing good for the world. i think that's something we believe in from a cisco perspective as well. >> so you were honored last year with the global citizen prize for your work training and uplifting farmers, particularly women farmers in kenya and you're going to be taking part in the summit this week. talk about your work and also how global citizen has impacted it. >> yes. first, say thank you for having us on your show. >> of course. >> immense gratitude to global citizen for giving us an amazing, amazing platform.

for us we have a sore spot for women in africa because they are so disadvantaged, so marginalized and we come in and try to see how can they gain a livelihood from agriculture. in my country we have over 60% unemployment rates, people are shying away from agriculture, seeing as a peasantry job. we are trying to make it cool and sexy and saying you can help your family by learning ago a. agriculture. >> this is what it's all about. especially lifting up a woman. >> she is the most extraordinary leader. she's bringing so many incredible women entrepreneurs. >> yes. yes. >> to see agriculture as part of their livelihood. i think she represents the future of the global citizen movement because she has been leading her efforts across kenya

and now around the world. >> yes. we have over 1.2 farmers that we are coming in together, breaking barriers in the industry, looking for policy, making sure the small-scale farmers are on the table of decision-making. >> you are sitting next to a leader in gender equity and education. thank you, guys, so much. it's so fun. i love it. enjoy your day today. >> thank you. >> it's going to be a big one. thank you all very much for joining us. for more on global citizen now visit globalcitizen.org. coming up, a live report from los angeles where police have responded to violent clashes on the campus of ucla. we will have the very latest straight ahead in the fourth hour of "morning joe." urth hour of "morning joe." itis or crohn's disease... put it in check with rinvoq... a once—daily pill. when symptoms tried to take control, i got rapid relief... and reduced fatigue with rinvoq. check.

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healthcare to after care. community schools can wrap so much around public schools. ...and through meaningful partnerships with families, they become centers of their communities. real solutions for kids and communities at aft.org mclaughlin reports. >> reporter: overnight in new york city a tense drama unfolding at columbia university. police in riot gear swiftly taking back a building occupied by anti-war protesters. nypd officers using a s.w.a.t.-style truck to enter hamilton hall by force. >> the building was very heavily fortified. >> reporter: police video showing officers clearing the building, eventually taking about 100 people into custody. >> you see the police in full riot gear leaving the campus. >> reporter: the dramatic end coming just hours after officials revealed what they called evidence of professional agitators, trying to create chaos on campus. there were also protests and arrests at the city university of new york overnight. and across the country at ucla,

clashes between pro-israel and pro-palestinian demonstrators, police moving in this morning. over the past month encampments have popped up on dozens of college campuses across the country, many inspired by the initial demonstration at columbia. according to an nbc news talley, police have detained or arrested more than 1,300 people. many protesters have been calling on their schools to divest or cut financial ties with israel and companies they say are aiding the war. >> we have to divest in order for us to have peace and to have justice in the region. >> reporter: columbia has said it will not divest from israel, but offered more transparency. one of the central demands the protesters who had occupied hamilton hall had had of the university. students there before the police came in asking columbia to allow food into the building. >> do you want students to die of dehydration and starvation? >> seems like you're sort of saying we want to be revolutionaries, we want to take over the building, now will you bring us some food.

>> nobody is asking them to bring anything. we're asking them to not violently stop us from bringing in basic hamilton aid. >> reporter: as the protests going on jewish students at multiple schools have said they've felt unsafe. >> this should not be my number one concern, my safety, and feeling overwhelmed by my environment. >> reporter: and now graduation ceremonies are just days away for the class of 2024. the same students who had their high school graduations canceled four years ago by covid. >> i think the primary concern is just restoring peace and order to the university. >> reporter: erin mcwill you have lane from reporting here at new york city. across the country at ucla unrest as well. let's bring in nbc news correspondent steve patterson live on campus. what's the latest there? >> reporter: we are right on the border of this pro-palestinian encampment. you can see the board behind me, the fence line which has now been established and then these boards that protesters have established really now for about a week or so. this is the site where we have

seen really what officials and protesters have described as really the worst conflict or outburst of violence so far since this whole thing started. counterprotesters arriving here at about 11:00 right to this very site, peeling parts of this metal and wooden barricade down, using it almost as like blunt force weapons. we had heard the possibility that pepper spray was deployed. we heard that fireworks had been deployed and were thrown inside the encampment and that protesters and counterprotesters were fighting or scuffling somewhere upwards of hours. obviously ucla got involved, decrying the violence, calling it abhorrent, calling for backup essentially with the police department, sheriff's department, who arrived on scene sometime around 2:00, full riot gear, peeling these two elements apart, trying to keep them as separate as they possibly could as the scuffles kept going on

throughout the night. finally by 3:00 a.m. those two groups were separated. obviously as the sun has risen now it is a whole lot more peaceful than it was a few hours ago. certainly an escalation of violence we have seen on this campus as the mayor's office, obviously state officials and of course the element on ucla is trying to do their best to try to stop these conflicts from happening, but they obviously are progressing. willie? >> we've heard from columbia university and the nypd that many people arrested last night who were inside the building at hamilton hall were not students, they were sort of an,ists who came on and glommed on to the protested there. we heard from a jewish student who said the counterprotesters who arrived at 11:00 last night on campus at ucla may not have been students, were not familiar to the jewish students who had been there. do we have any sense of who those people were? >> reporter: we have similar reports that they arrived in

white masks and black hoodies. there were the obfuscation of who these people were for protesters inside here was very apparent maybe they didn't know who this was. they could have been students or could not have been students. there is no reporting officially from not only the element that arrived here last night but who is inside the encampment. we don't have an official word of the breakdown of the numbers of are they official students on campus or are they an outside element? is there some sort of infiltration of element on campus as well? none of that is known yet and obviously in the cover of darkness when you add this violence outburst it is hard to tell who is who, but of course that is part of the investigation and part of what's happening here on campus as police try to get ahold of this encampment. willie? >> nbc's steve patterson reporting on the campus of ucla thanks so much. earlier on "morning joe" we spoke to new york city mayor eric adams and deputy commissioner of public

information for the nypd tyreke shepherd. he was on the bear cat officers used to enter hamilton hall at columbia. here is some of what they told us about unfolded last night. >> i believe that when we started seeing footage and we were able to identify what was always my belief based on some of the organizations and individuals, but once we were able to actually confirm that with our intelligence division and one of the individuals, a husband, was arrested for -- and convicted for terrorism on a federal level, once we were able to identify some of the other people, i knew that there was no way i was going to allow those children to be exploited the way they were being exploited. many people thought that this was a -- just a natural evolution of a protest. it was not. >> no. >> these were professionals that were here and i just want to send a clear message out that there are people who are harmful

and are trying to radicalize our children and we cannot ignore this. that these outside influencers, i don't know if they're international, i think we need to look into that as well. >> yes. >> but there is an attempt to radicalize young people in this country. >> once we realized that -- and expected -- that the outside agitators would step in, we started to prepare for anything. this is not what students bring to school, okay? >> i don't think so. >> this is what professionals bring to campuses and universities. these are heavy industrial chains that were locked with bike locks and this is what we encountered on every door inside of hamilton hall. >> joining us now we have a member of the "new york times" editor i can't board mara gay, nbc political analyst and publisher of the newsletter the ink anna and frank bruni, the author of the book entitled -- perfect for this conversation -- "the age of grievance." great to have you all on board.

congratulations on the book, we will fold it into this conversation. i want to start with you and just get your thoughts about what's happening on college campuses across the country and the response to it. i'm very interested in who these outside agitators, that's the phrase that i keep hearing, but what does it mean? >> look, i think you never have a perfect protest and there are always outside elements, there are always some bad signs, there's always some people saying bad things, but i think there is a weird dynamic where we revere the protests of the past that were actually the same, that were actually just as messy, that had the same problems that today's protests have. we revere 1960s protests, we revere protests for women suffrage that had some of the same debates, some of the same questions of radical elements. i think it's important to be smart about, yes, outside people

should not occupy buildings, it's important to be very clear about anti-semitism having no place in any kind of movement, but also be curious about what young people are trying to tell us in this moment. often the actual thing they're saying is different from what young people are trying to tell us. throughout history these kind of protests, young people have often been trying to tell a jaded society something that that society couldn't quite hear. it's often a kernel of the larger complex of things being said, but i think we are hearing from young people who have profound moral concerns, concerns that have been aired on this show by all of you about this war. and i think the other thing that we probably don't have young people there sharing with folks on this show is that they are of an age and a generation where they have not seen the conventional methods of political participation work. they haven't seen accountability for people who break the law work. they haven't seen voting necessarily deliver the fruits

that are promised. so i think we have to understand this is -- this is what happens when young people are trying to tell us something that maybe we become -- all of us, including myself in this -- too jaded to see. i think they should be curious about what they don't know, but i also think we should be curious about what we don't know and can't see. >> i would switch your "but" to an "and." meaning it can be true that anti-semitism on campus is unacceptable, period, full stop, end of story. unlawful behavior needs to be stopped, consequences need to happen, end of story. and the concerns of young people need to be heard. i mean, i'm not going to validate what i'm looking at right here in any way. >> no. >> that's not how you communicate. >> but this country was founded in civil disobedience, this country was founded by dissidents breaking the law. by the way, when you break the

law and civil disobedience you expect to be punished, that's part of civil disobedience, but there is a tradition in this country of people trying to make a case that they feel can't be heard and i think we should be curious. i'm not saying that as an endorsement of their position. >> no i don't think you are. >> i don't think a lot of us who are not them are being as curious as we should be about what young people are trying to tell us which has often historically had something important to say. >> i might be distracted by the encampments and the broken into building and the fighting with cops. a little distracted. >> it's easy to be distracted by it. i'm trying to suggest we go beyond that distraction because there's often historically been something there worth hearing. >> mara, before i get to frank's book your thoughts on sort of where we're going with this conversation because it makes me a little nervous, although i want to validate what young people want to hear, i want to hear it, i want to understand

it, at the same time i think we had a lot of dangerous situations quelled last night at columbia, thankfully. it could have gone very differently. >> it's a really challenging situation, right, and ultimately there's no place for intimidation, there's no place for violence. >> yeah. >> and that includes, by the way, police officers who may or may not be brutal with peaceful protesters. there is no place for violence. and there's no place for anti-semitism. i think at the same time, and this is what's so challenging about the first amendment in the united states, disruption is a part of civil disobedience, is a part of democratic tradition, and i think students who are engaged in peaceful protests and civil disobedience should expect there to be some kind of consequences for that. >> right. >> that was part of the civil rights movement. that is not the same as intimidating, physically or otherwise, jewish students or arab students.

there is a difference in that. occupying student buildings is a long tradition in this country, including in the '60s during the civil rights movement. there are moments where you look at the broad spectrum of who is out there protesting and it is very complex and difficult because you do have these protests at the heart of it, there are many people, many students out there who are simply morally outraged at seeing their taxpayer dollars contribute to bombs that are killing innocent civilians. that in and of itself is not anti-semitism in my opinion, but then you also have these protests as an excuse for those who are anti-semitic to express their views. that complexity i think is getting lost and so we have to hold all these truths at once. i also am very concerned because i do feel that universities are essentially a public forum and that the university has two responsibilities, one is to protect students, all students,

jewish students, arab students, all students from capricious punishment by members of congress, by police, by others. the other is to protect vulnerable students. in that case that really means often in this moment jewish and arab students. >> from other students. >> from other students or from anyone. it could be from, again, capricious members of congress who are trying to criminalize dissent in a way that canceled students before they even graduate. i really believe that this is a moment to both uphold the values that we believe in and really be very forceful about anti-semitism, but also to say, do you know what, civil disobedience is a long tradition, we are not going to punish students for that and ruin their lives before they graduate. i do wish listening to some of the students that they would go to the highlander folk school which i know no longer exists but you have to kind of question their strategy is not always perfect.

that's part of the movement. you know, you learn. but i just think that we need to get curious, as you said, we need to listen, and there need to be consequences and we can't allow violence. >> no. >> and we can't allow intimidation, but we should expect disruption. this is a messy and understandable part of a democracy so we should get more comfortable with it. >> in good faith protests as anand said through history, people come in and are shouting anti-semitic and racist things and tar the rest of what's happening. this fits right into your book, obviously, frank, it's titled "the age of grievance." we're watching that play out for the last two weeks on campuses. the book covers much more than that, but it really is the age of grievance. i guess we should start by defining how you see grievance in this moment in this time. what is it? >> grievance has become a dirty word. it used to be a righteous one. we are living in a moment where nobody -- everybody begins their

political discussions with what am i not getting? how have i been wronged? who has wronged me? how angry should i believe at them and how should i take my revenge? that's why we can't have constructive conversations or make progress on basic things where there is overwhelming agreement. mara, you used two words that are so important, you said challenges, you said complexity and then said we have to hold several truths at once. we are no longer good at that. i have my truth, you have your truth, i'm right, you're wrong, and i have to fight with you about it. i don't consider your perspective and wonder what the merit in it is or how you came at it. i don't think we need to find some sort of common ground. i just go to the battlements and that larger culture is what you see on campus. yes, there are genuine passions involved in these student protests but they're also mirrors of our culture. it's interesting to look at the scenes and think how much visual similarity there is to january 6th. these are different extremes of the political spectrum, but

there is a common political muscle and there is a common cultural dynamic to both. >> i don't disagree. i brought up the sort of just initial seeing people bark in the windows going, yeah, that's what happens on january 6th. these are examples. and we have the head of the -- the front runner, the republican front runner, anand, whose like main branding line is i am your retribution. >> yeah. but i do think -- i understand the visuals, right, but i do think people's motive and intent is of great moral relevance, right, and if you are motivated to show up on the capitol to invalidate an election because you've been goaded to think that -- people of color, america, is -- and the gays and everybody else are coming to suppress your freedom that is one kind of motivation to overturn a constitutional process. the founders didn't even put

protests as like the third or fourth amendment, they actually put it first in line and they were all dissidents. they were all breaking the law. i mean, starting a country, just to be very clear, starting a country, your own country, when you are actually part of another country is the ultimate civil disobedience. this country started with a giant illegal act, right, an illegal act i think we are all grateful for. it doesn't mean that all disruption is good, it doesn't mean all disruption is bad, but i think it is complicated, as you say, and we need to be able to hold complexity and i think students are often wrong about the specifics of what they say. students are not good at setting a foreign policy. students are not good at necessarily like eight-step strategy, but students throughout history have often been telling us something really vital that almost anybody else in the society is too afraid or too paid to say. >> i mean, would you apply that same logic of your first premise

that you laid out beautifully to protesters on january 6th? >> that there's some truth we should understand what they're saying? >> uh-huh. >> yeah, and i don't think it's -- it's exactly -- it's not the thing they're saying, the truth in that movement is that we have an enormous number of people in this country who are anxious and stressed and feel like they don't fit in the multiracial democracy and as i've said many times on this show i think those of us who want that multiracial democracy have not done the right organizing job to show a lot of those people that they don't need to go with fascism, they don't need to go with white supremacy. that there is a healthy fulfilling life for them in the future that's coming. i have said many times i think it is the burden of those of us who want that future to organize those people into a different reality. so, yeah, when i see january 6 i'm absolutely trying to understand what is underneath the thing. part of grievance is the thing on top and there's the thing that people are actually feeling

and actually driving them and it's often different. >> i want to understand the roots of what happened that day because i think it's important for our civil health. i'm not saying you were doing this, but i want us to be very careful about romanticizing and laundering what happened on that day. to me one of the scary things going on right now is a certain defendant in a courtroom in downtown manhattan is talking about those people as patriots who need to be freed from prison. >> right. >> that's a really terrible message and however disenfranchised those rioters felt, whatever the spark of their behavior was -- >> do you think i romanticized them. >> no, i think donald trump is. donald trump is. >> i have not affiliated with donald trump. what i'm saying is i think all political behavior, there is an expression of putting a chair somewhere or climbing a wall, that's the behavior, and there's often something going on with people underneath. and you can't do politics well if you don't understand -- i'm not romanticizing anything to understand. if you don't understand why very large numbers of white people in

this country have been convinced that fascism is better than multiracial -- if you don't -- if you don't like get that and have that ability to talk to them and do some research, you're not going to be able to outwit that. and i think if you don't understand what students are -- what is motivating students to potentially throw their entire careers, academic prospects, what's inspiring them to potentially throw all of that out -- again, you're missing something. you don't have to agree with it but they're telling you something and throughout history they've often been telling us something that aged better than the people who were against them at the time. >> frank, the companion piece to grievance is victimization and donald trump has made himself the avatar for this. this alleged billionaire who lives on fifth avenue in a penthouse and at a beach club, he somehow is a victim. he is a victim now of a two-tiered justice system in this country, but not people who love and support him they see in him how they feel. >> it's the craziest bit of

political scores is i i have ever seen. that line i am your political retribution. he's saying the same forces that are victimizing you are victimizing me, the way you get back at them is electing, venerating me and then we have had our revenge. that notion of revenge is so central to our politics. we are not living in -- we are living in apocalyptic partisanship. i'm going to slay those who bother you. >> i'm pretty sure we are on the same page here, but no matter where it happens violence and, you know, breaking of the laws, vandalism, taking over buildings, jumping in them, running all over them, saying you want to kill somebody is wrong. >> always wrong. >> and deserves consequences. >> absolutely. by the way, civil disobedience is people choosing to suffer those consequences to make their point. that's literally what it is. it's a choice to face -- it's a choice to willfully break the

law in the view of everybody. violence is always wrong, the intolerance that we've seen in this movement and any other movement, elements of it always wrong, but it's also been overblown. "the new york times," an incredible piece of reporting where she actually went there and spent days on end. she said, yeah, there are some people who say the wrong thing and problematic signs but the bulk of this is peaceful, nonviolent protests about people who are devastated by an immoral war. by the way, a lot of those protesters are jewish. so the idea that this is, you know, defined by the actions of some people who are outside the gates in many cases -- >> we don't know exactly how many people who were arrested or taken in last night from columbia were outside agitators who are students. we still don't have those numbers. that means you don't have them, either. >> i'm talking about the people over weeks who have been in that encampment, there were passover seders held by jewish protesters

in that encampment. this is not a collection of anti-semitic activists. there's been reporting on who these people are, a lot of interviews and a lot of incredible jewish students at the heart of this peace movement that we should not just erase and paint with a broad brush. look at people who have actually done the reporting in both of your paper, incredible, fair reporting and it's evidence-based. i think we should just ground ourselves in evidence rather than kind of slandering this group of people as so many people are doing. >> i'm not slandering anybody. >> i'm not saying you are. >> i'm saying they can't break the law and break into buildings. >> they were choosing to break the law to face consequences to make a point. >> i want to, again, separate the difference between breaking a law that says you can't enter a building and occupy an administration building and committing acts of violence on other individuals. >> correct. >> i just think we need to separate that for a moment. i think that's really important because i believe there should be consequences for, you know, occupying an administration building as well, but that is

not the same action as committing violence. that is actually, i believe, a part of civil disobedience and actually when you look back at the civil rights movement, you know, the belief among those leaders and i think this was the right one is that violence is corrosive to the human spirit and also to democracy. so actually it was an inversion of what we're thinking of at the moment. what you actually had was people from snic and other movements who were having violence committed upon them and refusing to act in response. that's what you saw at lunch counters across the country. that's what you saw when we saw police hoses coming out against peaceful protesters, protesting for civil rights. so i just want to just highlight that to say that there is a right way to go about civil disobedience that is still going to be uncomfortable, but it is not going to be violent. >> but taking over a building versus the violence that we might have seen versus chanting "river to the sea." i mean, do you want to like parse them and, you know, decide

which one is worse than the other or do you want to have a campus that is safe for everybody? >> well, i think the difficult thing about the first amendment is that, you know, you can have hateful speech, offensive speech and the first amendment still applies. that's true if the klan was marching through fifth avenue right now, they have a right to do that, and that is difficult. that is difficult for us. so even when something is offensive, you know, that doesn't necessarily mean that people should be stopped from expressing offensive views. >> but at a private university if you are harassing jewish students the university reserves the right to shut that down immediately. >> i just want to be clear. i find anti-semitism horrific and offensive and i think i'm not going to, you know, be the arbiter, i don't think any of us should. >> you don't want to defend -- >> no, but, again, i think universities are public spaces and i don't have the right to be

safeguarded from offensive speech necessarily. i think that's very difficult. >> wait, jewish students have the right to not be harassed. >> hold on. >> the point that mara is making very well on one side of a line there is violence, intimidation, hate, directed at individuals. that's all on this side of the line and we don't endorse any of that and no one sensible that i know endorses any of that. but on the other side of the line there is encampment, there's even things like taking over buildings which has a history in this country as part of protests that aged better than the people who are against those protests and it is part of the discomfort of living in a free society and sometimes people who we perceive in the moment -- i just saw the incredible broadway musical "suffs" those women fighting for suffrage were cast in exactly the same light. they were force-fed by the

police because they were perceived in the exact same light as people on the wrong side of history. they aged much better -- >> you are not talking about the chanting "from the river to the sea." >> no the encampments. i just want to make that clear. >> absolutely. >> frank, would you like to pour more gasoline on the fire and plug your book as we close. >> that is the right title. >> i know the book is not about the protests on college campuses across the country, but it really is the age of grievance, especially in the age of trauma. >> no, and i think we can move beyond it if we bring nuance to discussions and make some of the distinctions you were just making. if we have these discussions not in the broadest strokes possible but with a calmer demeanor. >> i think we did a good job today, do you think? >> i think we did. >> the book "the age of grievance" on sale now. frank bruni, thank you very much. congratulations on the book. the time is perfect for it. anand, thank you very much and

member of the "new york times" editorial board mara gay, thank you both as well. we appreciate you guys coming in and doing this. coming up, the federal reserve will meet later this afternoon where it's widely expected to keep interest rates unchanged as it continues to face stubborn inflation. we will get a preview of that meeting when we're joined by andrew ross sorkin at the table here. also ahead, eight daily newspapers are suing openai and microsoft, accusing the tech giants of copyright infringement for illegally using news articles to power their ai chatbots. that's all straight ahead on "morning joe." ning joe."

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live shot of the beautiful u.s. capitol. this afternoon the federal reserve will announce its third interest rate decision of the year. is there going to be a rate hike? let's bring in co-anchor of cnbc cnbc's "squawk box" andrew ross sorkin. >> don't expect a rate hike today. some people are praying for a rate cut, i don't think we will see that, either. i think there's going to be nothing. today is about hearing the language and trying to read between the lines and maybe some tea leaves from what jay powell says about what he's thinking about for the rest of the year. he is sort of stuck in this very unusual position, which is that on one end clearly there are some cracks in the economy, you saw mcdonald's, by the way, their earnings yesterday much poorer than people expected. same thing with starbucks, people are not going into,

they're trading down. we heard this from amazon. >> because i stopped drinking starbucks. i think i literally moved the whole market. >> part of it is that starbucks is too expensive for people right now. >> it is. >> the people on the edge cases who -- where it's not totally part of their routine, they are not going. >> just make your own coffee. >> so that's having on one end, on the other end, by the way, we had private payrolls announced this morning, we will get jobs numbers later, and that came in hotter. which means that wages are still hot. you say wages being hot with a good thing. >> right. >> but they're inflationary. we're sort of stuck in this middle place and trying to understand which direction even jay powell will ultimately go with interest rates is actually going to be a big, big deal. as we talked about all year, i think even though they say they're independent and i know there's a whole question about the independence of the fed under a trump administration based on the "wall street journal" article last week, come this fall presidential election,

is the fed willing to either cut rates or even increase rates given that that could have a real impact on how people feel about this election. >> they are in a tough spot. let's talk about this fascinating -- we talk about ai, what it can do, what it's already doing, this lawsuit brought by eight newspapers against openai for copyright infringement saying you're effectively taking our work to train your bots. >> this is the second big case that's now been brought against openai, the first i should say is one of my employers, "the new york times," who brought the original case and basically made the argument that openai has been training its models off of these articles that were copy written articles. there's a real question as too, a, whether they really were, and b, whether it's, quote, unquote, transformational and that's sort of a copyright technicality, but

can you actually learn from these things and use that information if you are not replicating them completely. have you also, you know -- all these websites have terms of service. you know, have you broken the terms of service to do it? and if you've done all of that how much do you really have to pay? there was an article that talked about how openai had started to run out of data actually to train on, so what did they start to do according to the article? they took youtube videos and started creating transcripts of the video so they could train on the transcripts of the video. >> i'm so scared. i can't keep up with it. >> the question is whose information is real. just one last point. mika, if you were to go off and write a book or frank bruni writes his book, frank could go read 40 other books in the process of training his brain to write the book, right? what openai is effectively arguing is that their computer is effectively training the same way that an author might train

to learn a lot of stuff and then put some of it in the book. nobody ever imagined, though, that frank bruni could write millions of books a day based on being able to do this. and that's the big distinction about how this technology works. if that makes any sense at all. maybe it doesn't. >> it does. >> ai doesn't create content out of the ether, it has to learn. >> it has to learn from something. >> a newspaper or a movie. >> are they stealing? >> that's the question. no, that is -- basically the lawsuit is is openai stealing? is -- there wasn't a lawsuit but anthropic is a similar one, google -- >> i think they are stealing. >> they have to be doing something and they're saying they crawled the open web and that that is a fair use situation. >> are you allowed to crawl the open web and just throw stuff on the air and say it's yours? >> no, because historically we would attribute it. and that's the other piece of

it. you know, currently we live in what's called the blue link economy which is use google and they've crawled the internet but there is a link back to where you could get it and you could create economics around that. once you get into chatgpt and these services that actually are writing things for you with maybe no link back. >> right. >> there is no economy except to say you are taking the information and regurgitating it towards me, and then the question is how should the fees work. a lot of news organizations, ap, axios and a whole other bunch have already made deals with these guys so they are not suing them. it's going to be very interesting to see who is on the right side of this in the end. >> cnbc's and drew ross sorkin, you've done nothing but stress us out this morning. >> sorry. >> really, no word on inflation going down, just zero, nothing. >> i wish i had better news on that front. could happen, by the way. second half of the year could happen and that's what we are all waiting to find out. >> okay. let's hope. >> ending on a slightly positive

note. still ahead, the big take a ways from the slue of concerning things donald trump told "time magazine" in a new interview. "morning joe" will be right back. a new interview "morning joe" will be right back (reporters) over here. kev! kev! (reporter 1) any response to the trade rumors, we keep hearing about? (kev) we talkin' about moving? not the trade, not the trade, we talking about movin'. no thank you. (reporter 2) you could use opendoor. sell your house directly to them, it's easy. (kev) ... i guess we're movin'.

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former president trump is taking advantage of a break in his hush money trial today to campaign in two swing states, michigan and wisconsin. joining us now live from waukesha, wisconsin, shaquille brewster. what can we expect from the former president today? >> reporter: hi there, mika. look, donald trump will be able to hit the campaign trail, a place he says he's wanted to be as he's been stuck in that new york city courtroom dealing with that criminal trial. when you look at his truth social and social media posts, you get a sense of what is top of mind for him and it's back to what he's been going through in new york. you see him this morning

attacking the judge, saying that the judge is crooked, that the trial is rigged, that he's facing election interference, though notably not seeming to break or violate that gag order that he's facing and that he was violated -- or that he was fined for just yesterday. you also see the former president talking about those college protests that we're seeing all across the country, suggesting that they are organized in a way that's to take attention away from the border. so you can hear immigration -- or you can expect immigration to be something that we hear as he hits the campaign trail today. he is as you mentioned visiting wisconsin this afternoon, then later this evening going to michigan. you know, while all of those messaging points that we've been hearing from him on his social media, while that will be red meat for the folks inside of these events, the real focus and the real intention behind these visits is to get out in front of these people outside of these events, in these battleground

states. i spent some time here in waukesha yesterday talking to voters about how much they're paying attention to that trial. how much they're even following the election at this point. you get a range of views. for some -- i spoke to one who said she voted for donald trump in 2020, but she doesn't want a president who has to deal with and go through a criminal trial and said she's now leaning toward joe biden. another person told me that he voted for biden in 2020, but he believes that these trials are essentially rigged, that it's a kangaroo court was the word -- or was the phrase that he used and says that he is now at least listening to donald trump. so the impact of the trial will be something that we continue to watch here on the trail and it's clearly top of mind for donald trump. >> nbc's shaquille brewster in waukesha, wisconsin, where the president will alive later today. shaq, thanks so much. this morning we've been going through donald trump's interview with "time magazine." here is how the reporter

described his take a ways from two extended interviews. quote, what emerged in two interviews with trump and conversations with more than a dozen of his closest advisers and confidants were the outlines of an imperial presidency that would reshape america and its role in the world. to carry out a deportation operation designed to remove more than 11 until people from the country, trump told me. he would be willing to build migrant detention camps and deploy the u.s. military both at the border and inland. he would let red states monitor women's pregnancies. >> okay. >> and prosecute those who violate abortion bans. he would, at his personal discretion, withhold funds appropriated by congress, according to top advisers. he would be willing to fire a u.s. attorney who does not carry out his order to prosecute someone, breaking the tradition of independent law enforcement that dates from america's founding. he is weighing pardons for every one of his supporters accused of attacking the u.s. capitol on january 6, 2021. more than 800 of whom have

pleaded guilty or been convicted by a jury. he might not come to the aid of an attacked ally in europe or asia if he felt that country was not paying enough for its own defense. he would put the u.s. civil service, deploy the national guard to american cities as he sees fit, close the white house pandemic preparedness office, and staff his administration with acolytes and back -- who back his false assertion the 2020 election was stolen. so that's the assessment, john, after two long conversations with donald trump, crystallizing all in one place and as we said a little bit earlier, if you are on the fence this have election, if you are thinking about sitting it out, whatever your politics, just -- if you read one thing, read that and you will know what it means to have a second term under donald trump. >> donald trump. >> yeah, first compliments to two very thorough and insightful interviews there. i think we always say when donald trump tells you something, believe him, and we're seeing it right there. i think the challenge for all of us and not just on this show, is

that this election is really to frame it in the stakes of the election. it's not just a day-to-day horse race. it's not just the polling each and every day. that's important. campaign developments are important, but it is a fork in the road moment for this country. >> yeah. >> and we're seeing from donald trump the path that he's taking the nation down if he were to win again and it's crystalized right there. >> if you want something tangible, just look at women right now and their health care and 50 years of rights that are gone, rights that we grew up with our children do not have. we'll be right back with more "morning joe." joe." it faster and sell more. much more. take your business to the next stage when you switch to shopify.

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order, he might lock him up. melania was like don't let the judge tell you what to do. >> we'll be back tomorrow morning 6:00 a.m., for you 5:00 a.m. >> 5 for me. >> how do you do it? >> a lot of coffee, caffeine, greens. >> we need to make some changes. >> works for me. >> ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a quick final break. e coverage after a quick final break.

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hello, it is 10:00 eastern. i'm ana cabrera reports from new york. let's get right to the breaking news this morning and what is