context. my colleague, as well, one thing worth bearing in mind here is that there is a great deal of concern about the outside elements. people who are not affiliated with columbia university. a great deal of concern at the municipal and statewide level of a possible threat to those individuals might represent whether one of them is brought a weapon on campus. people are pretty sure about the range of behavior they can anticipate from students, but there's a wildcard in terms of not knowing who is in the building. building. significant factor and i think accelerating the decision making process that has happened here.

>> thank you all. that is "all in" on this tuesday night. today donald trump was back in a court where he's facing 34 felony counts related to the hush c money payments he paid t adult film star stormy daniels to keep quiet about an alleged affair and specifically to keep ms. daniels quiet in the lead-up to the 2016 election. today the lawyer that negotiated that t hush money agreement for stormy daniels, keith davidson, took the stand. and we're going to get to that in justto a minute, but the big news out of today's trial happened before any witnesses actually b testified. today the judge in this case, judge juan merchan, ruled on two matters pertaining to trump himself. one is that trump will be allowed to attend his very tall son baron's graduation on may 17th, so he can look forward to that. the other matter was also somewhat of a win for donald

trump. today judge merchan found trump in criminal contempt for violating his gag order. the judge ruled that trump violated the gag order nine times. as punishment judge merchan fined trump $9,000, which is $1,000 per violation, and he warned trump the court will not tall ratd continued willful violations on its lawful orders and that if necessary and appropriate under the circumstances, it will impose an incarceratory punishment. in other words in plain speak if trump continues to violate this gag order, judge merchan may throw him in jail. now, trump already knew breaking the gag order could result in jail time, but he violated it nine times anyway, so in many ways trump was treated a lot nicer than most americans in our criminal justice system. and yet after the trial wrapped for the day, this is what trump came out and told the press. >> they have me sitting here for

a biden trial. it's a biden trial. i'm sitting here because that's exactly what they want.at they don't want me on the campaign trail. this is a corrupt system we're o in, and i think the people are understanding it. >> that, of course, could not be further from the truth. but what donald trump is doing here is projecting. he ishe describing not the juste system he is actually experiencing butst the justice system if he were in charge of it. c and i am not speculating here. this is trump in an interview with "time" magazine published today. question, would you fire a u.s. attorney who didn't prosecute someone you ordered him to. trump, it depends on the situationt honestly. question, sosi you might? trump, it would depend on the situation, yeah. that is from an extensive "time" magazine interview that just came out today and it is chock-a-block with news. he also got trump to talk about

plans foral his next term if he wins one, and those plans are wow. for example. you said we want to protect police from prosecution. what do you mean by that? trump, police are being prosecuteload the time and we wantec to give them immunity if they're doing their job. what trump is alluding to here is the notion ofng qualified immunity. qualified immunity is the legal doctrine that allows police officers to t avoid personal consequences related to their actions on duty unless those actions violate clearly established law, which is actually a very hard threshold to meet. in practice, that qualified immunity has meant a lot of police officers have killed black americans -- black americans in particular without consequence. and donald trump is all for it, wants more qualified immunity, in fact. when confrontedit would the fac

thatte violent crime is going dn throughout the country counter to what he has been saying for months and months now, trump says simply, i don't believe it. he explains, the fbi gave fake numbers, g it's a lie, it's fak news. so donald trump is insisting police have immunity to fight a crime wave that doesn't actually exist. if you are missing the racial subtext here there is this. question, polls show a majority of your supporters have expressed the belief anti-white racism now represents a greater problem in the country than anti-black racism, do you agree? >> trump, oh, i think there's a lot to, be said about that. throughout the interview donald trump explains his plans. and the most shocking of those planvise to do with immigration and abortion.

question, you said you're going to do this massive deportation operation. i wanton to know specifically h you plan to do that. here's trump. sot. if you look back to the 19s dwight eisenhower was very big on illegal immigration not coming into our country and he did a massive deportation of people. as a model for his immigration policy trump is referring to eisenhower's catastrophic deportation of around a million mexican immigrants known by a code name thatwn happens to be racial slur, operation wet back. it is a dark shapter in american history. the u.s. government used sweeps andnm brutal military-style tactics to round up mexican immigrants and ship them out of the country. and from the name to the execution, the whole thing was incrediblyhi racist and brutish and ended up accidently deporting a ton of people who were actually u.s. citizens. that is the model donald trump wants to emulate.

now "time" magazine reporter didn't just let all of that slide he pressed trump to understand exactly what he was saying. question, what's your plan, sir intrump, we will be using local law enforcement. question, does that include using the u.s. military? trump, it would. question, u.s. law says you can't deploy the u.s. military against civilians. would you override that? trump, well, these aren't civilians. these are people that aren't legally in our country. this is an envision of our country. that is how far donald trump would be willing to go to enforce his draconian immigration policies. he mind use local cops, he'd break the law because he doesn't consider immigrants to be civilians. and then his plans forus aborti. question, your allies in the republican study committee, which s makes up about 80% of t

gop caucus, have included the life at conception act in their 2025 budget proposal. the measure would grant full legal rights to embryos. is that your position as well? trump, i'm leaving everything up to the states. question, would you veto that bill? trump, i don'tth have to do anything about vetoes because we now have it back in the states. question, do you think states should monitor womens pregnancies so they should know they got an abortion after the ban. trump, i think they could do that. again you'll have to speak to tt individualav states. question, states will decide if they're comfortable or not prosecuting women foror getting abortions after the ban, but are you comfortable with it?t? trump, it's irrelevant whether i'm comfortable or not.e it's totally irrelevant because the states are t going to make those decisions. there have been very few times where donald trump has been asked in detail about what he actually plans to do if

re-elected president, so this is a really rare and essential piece of journalism here. trump comes along uninformed but also remarkably cutthroat, willing to embrace extreme harsh policies and really to countenance unimagined cruelty. as much as trump's answers are often garbled or opaque, they are still the clearest, most detailed outline we have had so far laying out what happens if donald trump becomes president once again. we're going to speak to the time reporter who interviewed donald moment, but t a first we are going to go back to our breaking t news, that developing situation at columbia university. joining me now is msnbc correspondent antonia hilton who's outside columbia. antonia, i know this is a quickly moving front here. what f can you tell us about th situation add columbia right now? >> reporter: so alex, right behind me, here that is hamilt

hall. officers in riot gear are lining up outside the gate that is providing access to the building where potentially 60 people where outside actors and anarchists are outside barricaded in, and there was moments ago a massive group of f protesters right there on the street chanting to the people inside, showing them support. and the police came up to them and told them very clearly that they had to disperse or risk arrest. so allem of those people have fanned out on either side of the gate now and they're chanting to police. there areg people shouting fro windows to police. it is very intense here. i'm going to step back. you can see these officers in riot gear prepping to get close to that gate. there's been an open question all night,en alex, how are they actually going to enter, how are they going to approach hamilton hall? we saw officers in riot gear on broadway closer to 114 street,

and they had multiple entry points to consider, but it looks like the critical mass has chosen amsterdam and 116 street. oh, go ahead. >> just to give a little context to what we're seeing here, the sort of -- the occupation of hamilton hall,at can you give ua little of a time line in terms of when it began, and do we have anymore of clearer picture about who is in there? >> so this all began last night at about 1030 a.m. protesters moved toward hamilton hall. they brought supplies and gear, entered, smashed windows and used items like trash cans to barricade entrances to the build. at one point they had scuffles with students who tried to block the entrance to hamilton hall.

students describe hearing chaotic sounds, chanting, singing, and, things breaking l through the night. and many of them even pro-palestinian students who have been e supportive of inencampment, supportive of students having their voices here were concerned about this theer escalation of this. students excited about the prospect a of the nypd returnin here. and actually students and faculty on all sidesac of this issue they are angry, frankly, with the administration. there's a feeling for many jewish students that the really not on has done enough about their concerns, the threats and harassment and fear they felt on campus and that at many points she set these arbitrary deadlines and said she'sts goind to do something and let these deadlines disappear. so they're angry on that side. on a the pro-palestinian side they're frustrated with the situation because of what happened on april 18th, and we saw the nypd enter the first time, 100 plus students get

arrested, disruptions to classes. many students describe feeling traumatized noti matter wlupd pt cloe the sight of what happened to their classmates that day.s there's also been a message telling everyone they need to shelter in place because of police activity. extremely is unsettling. it has students wonder if they're caught out in the yard orht nearby hamilton hall, i me it's right next to residential spaces, what will happen to them if they're misinterpreted as being part of the protest or simply get in the wail of what the nypd has to do in order to get the 60 people out of this building. our understanding is that there are some students part of the movement, but this always been a decentralized thing. there's never been one leader or clear group making -- and there could be students and outside

actors, which raises the specter of theis fear of violence and vy concerning kind of confrontation tong a whole new level. >> we have some news nbc can reporte columbia university ha sent a letter to the city of new york asking for assistance. that is coming from nbc news. antonia, in terms of mayor adams and his position on all this, he's been quite vocal. we also know as you talk about the unrest among the students, the faculty has also been quite engaged on this. i believe earlier today the faculty sent a letter -- this is prior to the situation we're seeing right now, but a letter saying it endangers our entire community, they hold the administration responsible for disastrous lapses of judgment that have gotten us to this point. they'll bear any injuries that may occur on our campus. it's almost like they're

telegraphing what we see unfolding right here, which is a very intense situation that hopefully does not escalate from here. you're right there with the nypd. what can youh tell us about whe the mayor has been on this thus far and the police presence that you're seeing at this -- at this particular moment. >> thepa mayor and nypd have be pretty clear all n along that while they respect students right to whprotest, that they sensed that if things got to a point that was violent, that they would be ready again to reenter campus, they consistently offered their help to the university. for a while, though, there have been ongoing negotiations with faculty, staff, and administrators all coming to the table and trying to figure out a way to de-escalate this, to avoid exactly what's happening behind me here. clearly those talks have failed, but when yous look at the examples ofhe what's happening l around the country right now, you see one extreme which are schools returning day after day to interact with protesters.

i'm receiving a note police are officially ona campus. police are officially on columbia's campus, alex. the other extreme would be what happened at brown -- what is about to happen here at brown. the students have taken down their encampment, and the university board has agreed to vote on the possibility of divestment.it these are the two options that could have been on the table. it's clear the side the administration chose tonight. >> c it's hard to get a sense exactly where the negotiate eggs fell apart. we had thegs editor-in-chief of the columbia spectator on last week when the tensions were already there and ultimatums given by the faculty, the president's office that didn't seem to be unfolding. are there other sticking points that haven't been resolved? just meaningfully and materially

i wonder what the focus point of thely negotiations has been. >> reporter: well, the focal point is the question of divestment, and whether the university would consider bringing that to the vote. they have repeatedly voted on divestment to show the community their perspective and the numbers and support have been very high, north of 70 and 80%. okay, we see additional nypd in riot gear about to enter. it looks like this is about to happen any moment now. what i can tell you is from the student perspective, the talks fell apartct the moment that th university made clear that they would once again invite the nypd or even at one point they say threaten to bring the national guard in. thatti created immense fear, concerns thatr, students at columbia would bet subjected t what happened at kent state, which led to deaths, students dying. that isea the concern here tonight. and that's why you see in the language from the s faculty

members you mention they are trying to signal in a advance o whatever happens, they will put the blame at nemat shafik's feet, that is the president of the columbia. every single feeing is coming back that the administration has not been clear in their messaging andth not shown a willingness to work not just with students but i've been receiving messages throughout the day who said they reached out to the administration saying can we talk to you at the table, can we figure out a way to escalate this, and the quote i got back is "we have been shutout." they're trying to tell her if a student gets hurt tonight, we're going tots point the finger at u tomorrow morning. >> it's probably worth mentioning if you're following with us, this is very intense situation at columbia university. this is all related to what's

happening in gaza. students apparently running straighten into a roadblock as r as divestments with columbia ia leadership. it is worth noting that this columbia protest has spawned a movement that has really flowered at campuses across the country. they've had different outcomes at othere schools. this is by far the most pitched confrontation we've seen thus far. but i do wonder, you know, as we talk about the police presence and the students who -- or the actors -- the people, whoever they are who have barricaded themselves in hamilton hall, what is the campus like, antonia? school is out soon and columbia if i'm not mistaken switched to virtual classes at least a week or two ago in order to de-escalate the situation, if you will. is there a large student presence on campus independent of what's happening here?he

>> reporter: there are a lot of students onhe campus. there are a lot of students around me now watching and waiting to see what happens to their fellow students potentially. they are very present on the ground. we haveen an nbc news intern wh is a student who has sent us video and information about what's happeningan inside. sope there are kids in their dos who will watch what happens from thech window. so classes have been a virtual hybrid option. they went to 100% virtual today because people simply couldn't -- okay, massive nypd trucks coming down the street. students have been nervous about this the entire day, and i can tell you the 2:00 p.m. deadline, it became very clear yesterday after thisve 2:00 p.m. deadline that was set, the university saying please, voluntarily pac up this encampment, please leave and if you do we'll make sure

you graduate. that went nowhere. you could feel in the air the interaction between staff and students that something was going to happen whether that was going to be the nypd or the studentse escalating this themselves,sc and now it's beco very clear. the students changed their strategy, theye moved into hamiltonnt hall. they're trying to create echoes to 1968 and the anti-vietnam war anti-war protests, and now the nypd is here. so in many ways this is the absolute worst-case scenario for pretty much everyone involved. i want to take a step to the side for what's involved here. >> antonia, it's worth saying here please stay safe in all this. you're precious to our network, but please if you need to move to a different area by all means do so, because it clearly seems the situation is escalating. you talk about the echoes of 1968, antonia, and it's impossible to talk about this

moment without the political overlay here. obviously the war in gaza has become a major concern for this white mhouse, this democrat jo biden who'shi running for re-election. republicans seen what i i believe is an opportunity to lay this a at republicans feet, at democrats feet -- >> reporter: alex, i've got to tell you what's happening here. there is a crane getting placed onto ane structure adjacent to hamilton hall, and it looks like officers are planning to walk across that and essentially enter a partial section of roof. are you able to swing to see that? >>g we can see the crane. i guess the question is the main entrance to hamilton hall i would assume is barricaded so they're trying to take an alternate route into the ro building, is that what you're saying? >> that would be windows, exactly. >> anddo just, again -- they wi be able to access that on the windows on the side there. >> let's reset for anyone joining l us right now.

there's a standoff between protesters who barricaded themselves inca columbia university's historic hamilton hall, and we think they're about 60 t in number. it's unclear whether they're students or outside agitators. police and nypd are on the site. columbia university has requested assistance from new york city. mayorne adams has provided that. you see these giant police trucks and now a crane that, antonia, you can give us a little bit moreni detail here.ta the police officers i think are on top of the truck and ready to walk across the crane to enter hamilton hall. >> reporter: this crane has a sort of ramp-like structure at its top, so what they're going to do is rest it right on the section that connects but also separates hamilton hall from one of the residential halls next al door, so they can rest the crane there. the ideast would be officers wa across that and presumably access windows. there are students in that building, though, right to the

left of hamilton hall who will bele able to see exactly what's transpiring just feet away from them.t in addition to officers it looks like more than a dozen of them on top of that crane there who are approaching right now, that there aret hundreds of other officers right here on this street infi riot gear. wen also know they already entered campus from another point, which means whoever f isn hamilton hall is not just going to see the nypd enter here, but they're alsoen going to presumay try to access other doors, windows, whatever they might be at another location, another corner of this building. >> now, we know that -- >> reporter: this is a massive response. >> yeah, it absolutely looks that way from what we're seeing on tv right now. we know that students have been told to shelter in place, and we're told that i believe earlier today if i'm not incorrect about that, but it doesn't sound like students -- it sounds like there's still a large student presence in and around this.n >> reporter: students have been told to shelter in place. that only came out about an hour

ago. some of the students tell me, f though, because of the barricades that have been setup all overha the place -- okay, w see an officer approaching a window right now. you can hear people screaming "shame oneo you," "boo." students want to watch. they are neighbors, those in the community here who want to witness what happens right now. it's veryht clear people are chosen not to shelter in place. there are students in their dorms, but there are a lot of people on the street waiting to seen what happens now, alex. >> i'm assuming it's hard to makeg out the shot but they'ren full riot gear, yes? >> reporter: full riot gear wch one of the officers has a shield on his arm, they have flashlights andioon looks like they're trying to find a way to break into that window that goes into hamilton hall. all dayto long you could get glimpses of theng people barricaded inside. occasionally they would pull up a shade, unfurl a banner that

said free palestine. one even went up to the roof at one point to wave a flag for a while, and the nypd had drone operators here who flew drones overhead to sort of monitor for quite a while before all this began, but now they're clearly trying to make an entrance through that window right there at the corner of 116th and amsterdam. >> just for context, encampmento at the university of connecticut, yale, and the university of north carolina chapel hill wereer cleared out. about four dozen encampments on college campuses remain across the country, but the initial one, the t first one and the on where the situation is clearly the most tense and has escalated to the highest degree is here in new york city at columbia university uptown in manhattan. antonia, i don't know if you can make this out, but are trying to speak withou the protesters who locked themselves inside? is that what's happening?ni

>> reporter: we can't -- we certainly can't hear the officers who arert by that wind, but there doesn't look like there's dialogue. i cannot actually see another person on the other side of that window but that's because there's a shade that's been blockingth visibility into the building all day. that's somebu of the instabilit the concern here. one thing we do know what happened last night 10:30 a.m., the first thing protesters did is wrap trash bags around security cameras. they may be walking into an unknown. whatsoever then officers open that window or breach one of the doors. okay, we hear some noises. it sounds like they're -- oh, an officer is going through the window. the first officer hasgh entered the window. people ared screaming on the street in response. okay, here they go. >> what we're witnessing is nyp officers in full riot gear entering hamilton hall on columbia university's campus in new yorkmb city. there are a group of about 60

people inside that building. it's unclear if they're all students, whether there are outside groups or agitators that have installed themselves in the building. thehe echoesms of 1968 are undeniable. you see just an enormous police presence. that's a crane they're walking up to get into the building as the main entrance is barricaded. antonia, what is the reaction -- we can hear some of it, but what's going on in the crowd right now? >> reporter: there are hundreds of people chanting "shame on you." as i said, alex, this is their worst nightmare, and that's for people on many sides of this issue. even people upset with classmates who escalated to thi point, who don't condone what happened in hamilton hall. there are high hopes around negotiations at a first. people were very excited about certain faculty members who they

felt had good rapport with administration and trust from and they thought there might be a possibility of dialogue, of a vote of the kind that's happening at brown university. and forni anyone who's joining now, there's been a range of response at universities. we have seen consistent police presence at universities and we'd seen what happenedun in columbia where there was an entrance of the nypd and about 100ny arrests and then there wa silence, anen encampment peacef for days and days. andnd then at brown university they closed their encampment down.th and that is because the protesters were able to come to an agreement with theer universy to take it to a vote so that the board of governors essentially of brown could consider the students concerns and questions, and then take action themselves. and the students felt like that was a good enough middle point that it made them feel like their voices had been heard. so the question for many people is why couldn't something like this happen here w at columbia?

and it's because the negotiations, the conversations seemed to have failed. >>ed antonia, we're going to goo tom winter now but please standby. obviously thisut is kinetic situation. joining me on the phone is nbc news tom winter who's been in touch with police as we're watching this unfold live on-air. tom, what can you tell us about how police are approach this situation and any directives or requests they'vey gotten from clubu university. >> yes, as nbc was first to report about half an hour ago columbia university transmitted a letter to the city of new york authorizing the city of new york and police department to enter its premises to make any sort of arrests they deem appropriate or assist inn any way. it's private property in new york so the nypd can't go on for whatever reason just because they feel like it. there needs to be a crime in progress or complaint, or they need tore be asked on.

i want to point out a couple of things you've been looking at. if you'rein looking at a red flashing light on some of these officers, that's a body worn camera. you've got a number of different types of police officers that are going in on this specialty vehicle that the nypd has. primarily the initial officers that entered are part of the nypd's emergency services unit. so there's a saying that when -- when the rest of us need help, we call police. when the police need help, they call emergency services unit. and so the officers that initially went in are part of the esu. the officers that are going in now, you're seeing some with cameras, they're there to document the arrests, document evidence what they see inside, and they obviously have the flexi cuffs, the bulletproof vests and ballistic helmets as well. the students are likely going to face at a minimum trespassing charges, burglary charges, potentially vandalism charges.al

and it's what's happening inside that hall, alex, that has law enforcement so concerned. primarily they're concerned that there's a group of anarchist-type individuals who have no particular ideology. it's propalestine today, pro-israel tomorrow. pro another cause next week. but their main goal, please say, is to try to find a way to engage andd engage in a violen way to fight police. and that is what has police so concerned because they're worriedol about the students the individuals have co-opted, that's their belief they could get hurt and certainly worried about the lives of their officers. that's really their concern and the reason why you had the press conference earlier today, and that's why you're seeing such an escalation over the last 8 to 12 hours and police is concerned about what's going on at columbia guniversity. so that's why you're seeing the response tonight mchb. >> s tom, do they have any

evidence that there are anarchists involved here, or is that just general concern. i'm looking at the police hall from the window -- the window of hamilton hall from the ladder truck. it is a number of officers, and i'm just wonder whether they've given any sort of intelligent on how and why they believe there might be outside groups involved in this. >> sure. so i spoke to the head of nypd's counter intelligence program, deputy commissioner rebecca winer earlier tonight part of the press conference.th they say they've uncovered evidence and they've produced video and evidence they've recovered through security se cameras, through social media posts s online, from inside tha hall, and they say they've identified a number of individuals that are well-known to the nypd over a number of years they believe are definitely inside of there. they don't know the notality of

individuals inside of there. time will tell. we'll see what comes out of there. the nypd understands you never take anyone's word at face value. they do haverd a a really good handle on these groups and they absolutely believe this is an a theory, they say they have hard evidence that's the case, and that's why they were so concerned w about this haul and the developments there today. >> all right, they're certainly responding based on that intelligence right now. nbc news investigative reporter tom winter, tom thanks so much for the breaking news and information. i want to go now to michelle goldberg, opinion columnist for "the new york times." >> i was at columbia for most of the days. today. >> this has been brewing for a number of t days. what was the sense you got on

campus? >> well, it was actually very, veryt quiet today because they completely locked down the campus. i was lucky someone from the journalism school helped me get it. otherwise the press doesn't have access. it's the student journalists doing a heroic job letting the world know what's going on on columbia's campus. clearly it's an untenable situation, and both sides said that negotiations had completely broken down. >> as for the idea that there are -- i mean there are kind of outside kiagitators, i think th is something that we hear all the time, and so i'm not saying i have evidence one way or the other, but i think we should taker, it with a few grains of salt.of i saw one video the nypd released that showed in the crowd that wasny surging toward hamilton hall,gi they pointed o one older looking woman who i guess is known to them. but i think we have seen very

little in the way of hard evidence, ande i would assume that most of the people in hamilton are students. >> right, and it's not an overstatement to say this is an issue that has animated a lot of students on campuses across the country. it is unfolding across america and the epicenter is here at columbia but an issue that has ignited a lot of passions across the country. i do wonder, though, when we talk about the way in which the administration has handled this, which is something everybody points to as problematic and by everyone i mean students and faculty alike. the president of columbia, nemat shafik went and testified on the hill and i think had a demonstrably shall we say deferential attitude to the line ofde questioning. she did not push back on the allegations this was an inherent

anti-semitic exercise this encampment. i think to the chagrin but being ain reporter if you can contextualize where we are today. >> what i've heard from people is that her testimony threw fire on a volatile situation by just making it so clear that the administration had, you know, kind of no sympathy for the demands of protesters, for the fact the administration threw several member of their faculty under the bus and revealed what should have been disciplinary proceedings, sometimes disciplinary complaints unphone to the themselves, and i think in retrospect, this makes a lot oft, people appalled by the performance of claudine gay, and

thirefused to commit to saying the chant from the river was genocidal and violates their student policies, they didn't want to commit to cracking down on student protesters and i think that decision looks smart in retrospect. >> i want to read a statement we got from clu. a little after 9:00 p.m. this evening nypd:0 arrived on campu at the a university's request. we regret that protesters have chosen to escalate the situation through their actions. after the university learned overnight that hamilton hall had been occupied, vandalized an blockaded, we were left with no choice. a member of our facilities team was threatened. we will not risk the safety of our community or the potential for further escalation. thefo leadership team including

the board of trustees met throughout the night. we made the decision early in the morning this was a law enforcement matter and that the nypd was best positioned to determineas and execute an appropriate response. this is interesting. "we believe the group that broke into and occupied the building is led by individuals who are not b affiliated with the university. sadly this dangerous decision followed more than a week of what had been productive decisions with representatives of the west lawn encampment." it goes onto talk about the security precautions they're taking on campus, and they are making clear that the life of campus cannot be endlessly interrupted by protesters who violate the rules and the law. >> i mean, look, i do think once the -- once they broke into the hall, once they kind of seized this building, the administrationld was in a no-wi situation because no administration is kind of going toon tolerate their buildings being taken over indefinitely.

that said, this was less than 24 hours, so they clearly decided to move extremely quickly. and we'll find out soon enough, i guess, whether this was indeed, quote-unquote outside agitators.ot but now you have not just the nypd but columbia's administration putting theirol credibility on thes line. >> the issueit that's unfolding here has become actually much bigger inre a lot of ways the w in gaza. with the entrance of the speaker of the house, mike johnson who was there lastmi week, it's bece sort of the embodiment of the left-right divide in higher education. >> i think there's something tragic about this. netanyahu in israel is threatening to invade rafah. and in a way these protests against the war have eclipsed the warve that they're protesti, and that might be partly the fault, frankly, of us in the

media. it's also the lack of strategy of some these of demonstrators that have made the protests -- you know, some of the demands the protesters are not about the protests. they're demanding amnesty. there was a press conference today they were asking for food and water for the protests. gaza itself we've kind of all lost that. >> we're actually not talking about that. we're talking about what happens when a student protest reaches -- or an outside protest, whatever it is, reaches an outside point the university can no longer tolerate. what we were just seeing is protesters being detained, i believepr people who had been taken out of hamilton hall, people being taken out of the hall and now put in police custody. i want to bring in msnbc law enforcement analyst and member of the task force on the central policing center who's also been in touch with the new york police department andch sources there this evening. what can you tell us about your

understanding of this situation andta the hope for sort of resolution in the least violent way possible? >> well, i think we're going to see resolution throughout the course of the evening.ur it's going to be very planned for, very methodical. and i'm quite sure the nypd has had some time to prepare for this in case they were called in,al and they have been called in. sole i think what you're seeing evolving right in frontnk of yo is a police department certainly that historically has years of experience inll working in thes types of situations. and i think what you're seeing tonight is a demonstration of them being very organized, very prepared, under good supervision, supported by the mayorsu and the city at large. and i think at the end of this hopefully there'll go throughout the night without any real incident.

so i'm quite hopeful of that. i'm quite sure all this has been planned out over the last few days. and now nypd has been given permission to come in, thatee i what we'reco seeing and appear be doing this job very well. that does not mean you will not have those who may resist. if they do, i'm quite sure that they will use the force that would be appropriate and proportional to the resistance, but let's just hope for the best. and i think we'll get through this night because this certainly needs to come to an end, and i think we're all in agreement of that. >>em we know police were enteri with zip ties. we have no reason to believe anybody inside r hamilton hall armed, however, is that right? >> well,ar we have no reason to believe that.o but, however, i think the community kind of circumstance you certainly want to go in being prepared for whatever may be onpr the other side of that doorth inside that building. but i don't think that's so much

of a concern. they are trained for these types of snechbts. you're seeing a well-trained force entering from the ground and upstairs, and here again we allga will be hopeful this willo without any incident throughout the night. >> msnbc law enforcement analyst cedric alexander, thank you for your time tonight. i want to bring in marianne hersh a professor at columbia university. i just want to get your thoughts about what we're seeing unfold here, which is probably the sort of worst-case scenario of how -- short of a worst-case scenario but up there in terms of how protests meet its resolution. what can you tell us about what you've seen and what you've heard during your time on campus? >> well, i think this is utterly tragic. it did not have to be this way.

i think the university and administration have escalated this situation from the very beginning by bringing in police already on april 18th, arresting students. that makes the protests grow. and there have been deadlines and otherve deadlines. i think all of the protests have been criminalized rather than being treated as a right of students to express their opinions. and this takeover of hamilton hall does not have resolve and this takeover tonight. there hadn't been professional mediation. there hasn't beenon enough timeo resolve the situation in a different way. >> when you a talk about the police presence being a galvanizing force, can you speak

more c to that, i mean the way which the escalation here has actually brought students into the s fold, if you will, or brought them into the issue or engaged them in some way. >> well, president shafik testified before congress. there was an encampment on campus within literally a day. police were called to campus to eliminate the encampment and arrest students. this was very fast. i've never heard of anything happening so fast, and that's galvanized the movement across the country and now across the world. there have been encampments everywhere. and i'm not sure why this has to be resolved with violence so quickly. why haven't there been more discussions and conversations andd professional mediation an also visits by the administration to the encampments, discussions with the students about their demands and about their political

convictions. >> marianne hirsh, a professor of english at columbia university, if you can stay with me. i want towi bring in jelani cob. dean, we spoke about this when it was beginning and i wonder your thoughts as we watch this heavy, heavy new york city police presence enter hamilton hall. >> it's tragic, i think probably one of the few things people would agree in about this very contentious situation is that it's a very difficult thing to see nypd on campus.pd i do want to make a couple of corrections, however. there have been extensive negotiations. i'm aware of that because i've been part of them, and those negotiations have gone on for eightgo days straight, and ther actually have been professional

remediations between people from columbia law school who have been involved and from the faculty senate and an array of other voices. the negotiations seem to have met an impasse that seemed insurmountable, but the idea there was no engagement with students acrosss that time is t true. in my career and the things i've written about and a long history in writing about police brutality and concern about the policey use of force, my motivation and i think the motivation of people in the negotiating was to try to forestall something like this happening. and i will say there'll be plenty of time to evaluate, you know, the decision making here but in terms of the window into the understanding i got called from people fromgo high up in state government and people

highly placed in municipal government asking the same thing, what's the guarantee the people ocpeeing the building were columbia students or the people in the encampment were columbia students, and there was no way to verify that. and there was a great deal of concern while columbia -- the recognition of members of the columbia community may have had a kind of range of behavior that you could anticipate, there was a lot of concern about what people from outside the community may have been capable of. and so that was something that was, you know, consistent worry from people in all sorts of different areas. >> it's really hard to imagine that this issue is in any way settled after what we're seeing tonight. and i kind of wondered jelani, professor dean, what you expect tomorrow to look like.

we have word there are dozens who have been taken into police custody. theto focus here has been hamiln hall. but foron the issue writ large, the suinkachgments and the jepel student dissatisfaction with columbia and its resistance to divesting, i just wonder what you imagine comes next. >>in no clue. i don't think anyone has a sense of that. you know, i don't think we anticipated this two weeks ago. so the one thing that we probably -- one of the few things we would agree on is that this is not resolved and we'll have more issues on these lines to contend with. >> i just want to reset for anyone joining us at this late hour we're closely following developments at columbia university. in the last hour students were ordered to shelter in place due to police activity, a massive response by new york city

police. at therk top of the hour new yo police in full riot gear began entering campus and making arrests. it is unclear how many students have been arersed, but what we do know before police entered the campus an nypd official said protesters barricaded themselves inside hamilton hall those protesters will be charged with third degree burglary, criminal mischief, and trespassing. a moment ago we saw dozens of officersw making their way int the building from the back. and police also said those in the encampments could be charged with trespassing and disorderly conduct. nbc news was first to report columbia university asked the nypd to enter and make lawful arrests. just moments ago columbia released a statement noting that the decision to reach out to the nypd was in response to the actions of the protesters not

because they're chanting. michelle, you point this out and you should continue to point it out we're talking about a situation between law enforcement and campus protesters we'll call them for now, but we're not talking about the issue at hand, which is the deathly, deathly war in gaza where over 35,000 people have been killed potentially looming invasion of rafah. an israeli prime minister who even president trump had harsh words for. >> yeah, an israeli prime minister who seems tuesday be doing his best to kind of scuttle any hope of a cease-fire and a hope of saving his far-right coalition and keeping himself out ofn prison. and again, i think that this is a failure of the media, it's a failure of us. but these protests have clearly turned -- these protests that were meant toha awaken to world conscience to what's happening in gaza, to make it seem business as usual can't continue

as long as the war goes on, they clearly had some impact, but they've also through some of their own tactics have made the story about them. >> well, i would say there has -- we started to talk about this. it has been a political opportunity especially for members of the far-right to make this is a plank in the war on woke, right? the idea this is liberal elites flouting the law, effectively showing a middle finger to leadership and doing what they want, occupying hallsch and that needs to be met met with the strong arm of law and order is something that is right for s lpens which is why you saw the speaker of the house visiting columbia not that long ago. in the broader context of how elites are, you know, against order and rule of law and that, you know, the sort of bastions of elite institutions need to be brought

[ to reality. >> again, i think this is exactly the kind of outcome elise stefanik and other members of the community wanted when they called the presidents of universities before them and demanded a firm response. i think this is the reason why today they called three more college presidents in for a hearing next month. right, this is catnip to them. >> i want to go back to marryianne hirsh. as a nod to what this is about what you've been hearing from your students as the war has progressed and beyond the sort of divestments issue which we know is a major sticking point in these negotiate asians, what more they wanted to see from columbia leadership. >> well, divestment is one, but i think they want -- i think they're very serious about the issue of divestment which has ts do with watching this incredible

violence across the world and knowing that the united states and somehow the university is implicated in it. i know there have been negotiations. jelan cobb has told us there have been. my misunderstanding of that is a symptom of the lack of communication on campus. and students have a variety of opinions. i think one thing we all as faculty and also students came together on is that we did not want police presence on our campus. we have procedures for dealing with infractions. we have a university senate. none of those structures have been used properly by our administration, and that's been -- there's been a tremendous lack of trust and lack of communication among us. i want to respond for a second to michelle goldberg's statement that this is taking a lot of attention away from the war in

gaza. i think you could say that, but i also think that there's been a tremendous gratitude from the people of gaza for the engagement of students on american campuses and on campuses across the world. this has brought attention, and it's a gesture of solidarity that i think is being appreciated. i also feel that if we can't negotiate our way out of this situation, how can we expect the middle east crisis to be resolved? this is a much more simple issue to negotiate than a cease-fire in gaza. >> asmarianne hirsch, thank you for your time andhi insight int this. we really appreciate it. michelle, hamilton hall is for people who are not familiar with the columbia campus in april of 1968, 56 years ago, hundreds of students seized the building duringts protesters over the vietnam war. i do not think that was lost to

the people who stormed hamilton hall. after a week this is again in 1968 police entered in underground tunnels and cleared themd out. over 700 people were arrested. >> let's remember that's a really dark l chapter in columbia's history, which is why it'sis so breathtaking to see tm repeat it. >> but it does -- putting this in the broader context what's happening in american politics when this began i think for a lot of people all these protests had the eye opening of the 1960s. the country feels catastrophically divided on every issue from basic facts to, you know, an actual policy. >> i think a democratic presidential convention in chicago. >> yes. exactly echoes of 1968. it's hard to imagine this is -- that this imagery of the nypd

storming columbia in this moment is not going to reverberate in ways that we cannot yet see across the political divide. >> and i think we should remember what the kind of images of protest disorder did in the late 60s. because even as the vietnam war became increasingly unpopular, so did the anti-war protests, and it was in part the backlash to that as well as urban crime gave us not not just richard nixon but a sort of unbroken republican rule until bill clinton. and so i would expect -- and we're already seeing the backlash to this, but i would expect it to be ferocious. >> yeah, the late 70s were a period of entrenchment and the 1980s saw ronald reagan and a conservative agenda that was fiercer, more focused, and more effective than any other conservative agenda than we're grappling with today.

the establishment, any number of right-wing organizations, a master plan to retake the judiciary. what we saw in the after effect of the vietnam war was really a brand w of conservatism, a new right that the country had never seen before. we're going to take a listen now to police who are speaking after the entry to hamilton hall. >> did the students resist arrest? >> we're not doing an interview. >>n how many students were arrested? >> if you want to learnts how t work with me, if i tell you i'm done, i'll give you all the information. but when you try to force it out of me, it doesn't work. >> okay, police obviously not wanting to talk about what's going on at this juncture. presumably we'll hear from them or the mayor's office or columbia university. again, to reset for those of you joining us, at the end of this hour the police, nypd have

entered hamilton hall, a storied building on columbia's campus where approximately 60 individuals -- we're going back to the police. stick with me. let's listen. okay,we're obviously dealing with a lot of moving pieces here, but you see a very robust police presence. police in riot gear used a ladder truckr to enter hamilto hall i i think about 60 protesters were inside, barricaded themselves inside. we have reports dozens of protesters have been arrested or detained by police. we do not yet know what the charges w are. nypd came to the campus at the request of columbia university, which requested assistance just after 9:00 p.m. tonight. we're going to leave it there. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. breaking overnight, columbia university calls in the new york city police department to car