the new yorker, as well. one thing worth bearing in mind here, is that there is a great deal of concern about the outside elements. there are people who are not affiliated with columbia university, and a great deal of concern at the municipal and statewide level of a possible threat that those individuals might represent, whether one of them has brought a weapon onto campus. people are pretty sure about the range of behavior they can anticipate from the students, but there is a wildcard in terms of not knowing who is in that building. so that has been a significant factor i think accelerating in the decision-making process here. >> jelani cobb, antonia hylton, still covering for us, think like you all. that is all in.

alex, good evening. it is a kinetic situation at columbia. we will follow that through the air. thanks for that coverage. we stay in new york city, where today, donald trump was back in court, where he is facing 34 felony counts related to the hush money payments he paid to adult film store star stormy daniels to keep quiet about an alleged affair, and particularly to keep ms. daniels quiet up until the 2016 election. the lawyer, keith davidson, took the stand, and we will get to that in just a minute. at the big news out of today's trial happened before any witnesses actually testified. today, the judge in this case, judge one russian juan merchan, said trump will be allowed to attend his very tall son, behrens baron's graduation.

the other matter was also somewhat of a win for donald trump. today, judge merchan found trump in contempt of violating his gag order, ruling he violated the gag order nine times. as punishment, judge merchan find trump $9000, $1000 per violation. and he warned trump that the court will not tolerate continued willful violations of its lawful orders, and if necessary and appropriate under the circumstances it will impose an incarcerated tory punishment. in plain speak if trump continues to violate this order judge merchan may throw him in jail. now trump already knew breaking the gag order could result in jail time, but he violated it nine times anyway. trump was treated a lot nicer than most americans in our criminal justice system. and after the trial wrapped for the day this is what trump came out and told the press.

>> they had me sitting here for a biden trial. i'm sitting here, because that's exactly what they want. they don't want me on the campaign trail. this is a corrupt system we are in, and i think the people are understanding it. >> that of course could not be further from the truth, but what donald trump is doing here is projecting. he is describing that the justice system he is actually experiencing, but the justice system if he were in charge of it. and i am not speculating here. this is trump in an interview with time magazine published today. question, would you hire a u.s. attorney who didn't prosecute someone you ordered him to? trump, it depends on the situation, honestly. question, so you might? trump, it would depend on the situation. yeah. that is from an extensive time magazine interview that came out today, and it is chock-full of news. trump actually got to talk about

his plans for a next term if he wins one, and those plans are, wow. like for example here's a question to trump. he said we want to protect police from prosecution, what do you and by that? trump, police are being prosecuted all the time and we want to give them immunity from persecution if they are doing their job. now, what trump is alluding to here is the notion of qualified immunity, which you might remember as a central focus of the black lives matter movement. qualified immunity is the legal doctrine that allows police officers to avoid personal consequences related to their actions on duty unless those actions violate clearly established law, which is actually a very hard threshold to beat. in practice, that qualified immunity has meant a lot of police officers have killed black americans in particular without consequence. and donald trump is all for it,

wants more qualified immunity, in fact. when confronted with effect violent crime is going down throughout the country, prior to what he's been saying for months now trump simply says i don't believe it. he explains the fbi gave fake numbers, it's a lie, fake news. so, donald trump is insisting police have immunity to fight crime wave that does not actually exist. if you are missing the racial subtext here, there is this. question, pulls show a majority of supporters expressed antiwhite racism now represents a greater problem in the country than antiblack racism, do you agree? trump, oh, i think that there is a lot to be said about that. i think there is a definite antiwhite feeling in this country, and that cannot be allowed either. throughout this interview, donald trump also explains his plans if he takes office, and the most shocking of those plans have to do with immigration and abortion.

question. you said you would do this massive deportation operation. i want to know specifically how you plan to do that. trump. if you look back to the 1950s dwight eisenhower was very big on illegal immigration not coming into our country, and he did a massive deportation of people. as a model for his immigration policy will see eisenhower's catastrophic rotation of around 100 million mexican immigrants known by a code name that happens to be a racial slur, operation from the name to the execution the whole thing was incredibly racist, british, and ended up accidentally deporting a ton of people who were actually u.s. citizens. that is the model donald trump

wants to emulate. not time magazine reporter eric didn't let all that slide, he pressed trump and made sure he was correctly understanding exactly what donald trump was saying. here is more. question. what is your plan, sir? trump. we will be using local law enforcement. question, does that include using u.s. military? trump. it would. question u.s. law says you can deploy the u.s. military against civilians, would you override that? trump, well, these aren't civilians, these are people that aren't legally in our country, this is an invasion of our country. that is how far donald trump would be going to go to enforce his draconian immigration policies.he would use local cops, use the american military, he would break the law because he doesn't consider immigrants to be civilians. and then there are plans for abortion. question, your allies and the republican study committee which makes up about 80% of the

gop caucus have included the life and conception act in their 2025 budget proposal. the measure would grant full legal rights to embryos. is that your position as well? trump, i am leaving everything up to the states. question, would you veto that bill? trump, i don't have to do anything about vetoes, because we have it back in the states. question did you think states should monitor women's pregnancies so they can know if they have received an abortion after the ban? trump, i think they might do that. again, you will have to speak to the individual states. question. states will decide if they are double or not prosecuting women for getting abortions after the ban, but are you comfortable with it? trump, it's irrelevant whether i am comfortable with it or not, it is totally irrelevant, because the states are going to make those decisions. there have been very few times where donald trump has been asked in detail about what he

actually plans to do if reelected president. so, this is a really rare and essential piece of journalism here. if trump comes across as uninformed, but also remarkably cutthroat. willing to embrace extreme harsh policies and willing to countenance unimagined cruelty. as much as trump's answers are often garbled or opaque they are still the clearest most detailed outline we have had so far laying out what happens if donald trump becomes president once again. we are going to speak to the time reporter who interviewed donald trump in just a moment, but first we will go back to our breaking news, that developing situation at columbia university. joining me now is tragic correspondent antonia hylton outside columbia. i know that this is a quickly- moving front here. what can you tell us about the situation at columbia right now?

>> reporter: alex, right behind me here is hamilton hall. officers in riot gear are now lining up in front of the gate that is providing the closest access to that building where approximately 60 people including students may be outside actors and anarchists are inside barricaded in, and there was moments ago a massive group of protesters right there on the street chanting to the people inside, showing them support, and the police came up to them and told them very clearly they had to disperse or risk arrest. so all this people have fanned out on either side of the gate now and are chanting. people are shouting from the windows at police, it is extremely tense here. i will stand back so you can see some of the scene your self. you see officers in riot gear planning to get closer to the gate. there's been an open question of how they are actually going to enter, how they are going to

approach hamilton hall. we saw officers right here on broadway closer to 114th street. and they had double entry points to consider. it looks like a critical mass has chosen this gait here on amsterdam. that go-ahead. >> just to give a little context to what we are seeing, the sort of occupation of hamilton hall, can you give us a timeline in terms of when it began? and do we have more of a clear picture about who is in there? >> reporter: this all began last night at about 12:30 a.m. protesters moved toward hamilton hall. they brought supplies and gear. they entered, smashed windows, used furniture, and gates and all kinds of items like trash cans to barricade all the entrances to that building. at points they had scuffles with

students who tried to block some of the entrances to hamilton hall. students describe chaotic sounds, chanting, singing, and things breaking all through the night. and many of them, even pro- palestinian students who have been supportive of the encampments, supportive of students having their voices were at times a little shaken by this and concerned this was an escalation that would lead to what we are seeing here now. i have not met students how who are excited, and students on students and faculty on all sides of the issue, they are angry frankly with the administration. there's a feeling for many jewish students that the administration has really not done enough about their concerns, the threat and harassment, she said she would do something and let the deadlines does appear, so they are angry on that side. on the pro-palestinian side, they are frustrated with the administration because of what happened on april 18th we saw

nypd enter the first time, disruptions to classes, many students describe feeling traumatized at the site of what happened to their classmates that day. they think it is extremely upsetting to them. there has been a message that's gone out to faculty and students telling everyone they need to shelter in place because of police activity. that too is extremely unsettling. it has students wondering if they are caught out in the yard or nearby hamilton hall, it is right next to residential spaces, what will happen to them if they are misinterpreted as being part of the protest or simply get in the way of what nypd has to do to get people out of this building. our understanding there were students who were part of the movement, but this has been a decentralized thing, there's never been one clear leader or group making a decision about this action or that, so there are a couple dozen people who could be a mix of students and outside actors who according to

nypd may be trained for this which raises the fear of violence, and a very concerning right of confrontation to a whole new level, alex. >> and we have news nbc can report columbia university has sent a letter to the city of new york asking for assistance. that's coming from nbc news. antonio? in terms of mayor adams, he has been quite vocal. we also know as you talk about the unrest among the students the faculty has also been quite engaged on this. i believe earlier today the faculty sent a letter, prior to the situation we are seeing unfolding, but a letter saying nypd presence endangers our entire community, they hold university leadership responsible for what they call disastrous lapses of judgment that have gotten us to this point, the university president and board of trustees will bear responsibility for any injuries that may occur during any police action on our campus.

it's almost like they're telegraphing what we see unfold, which is a very tense situation. hopefully that does not escalate, but antonia? can you give me a sense of, you are right there with nypd, but what can you tell us about the mayor has been on this thus far, and the police presence you are seeing at this particular moment? >> reporter: the mayor and nypd have been pretty clear all along that while they respect students' right to protest they sensed that if things got to a violent point they would be ready to reenter campus. they have consistently offered their help to the university. there have been ongoing negotiations with faculty, staff, and administrators coming to a table and trying to figure out a way to avoid exactly what's happening behind me here. clearly those talks have failed, but when you look at the examples of what is happening all around the country right now you see one

extreme, which are schools that have had police return. police are officially on campus , alex. the other end of that extreme with what happened at brown where instead of what is about to happen here, at brown, the students have taken down their encampment, and the university board has agreed to vote on the possibility of divestment. these are the two options that could have been on the table. it is clear the side columbia chose tonight. >> on the end, it's hard to get a sense of where the negotiations fell apart. we had the editor in chief of the columbia spectator where the tension was already there, and there were ultimatums being given by the faculty or by the president' s office. i am not sure that is the most effective, but beyond the divestment, are there other sticking points that have not been resolved? meaningfully and materially, i

wonder what the focus point of the negotiations has been. >> reporter: the focal.is the question of divestment and whether university would bring that to the table. the universities have voted on numbers and support have been very high. north of 70 and 80% grade okay we see additional nypd in riot gear about to enter. it looks like this is about to happen any moment now. what i can tell you is from the student perspective the talks fell apart the moment the university made clear they would once again invite nypd or at one point they say threatened to bring the national garden. that created a man's fear and concerns that students at columbia would be subjected to what happened at kent state, which led to deaths, students dying.

that is the concern here tonight. i think that's why you see in the language from the faculty members you mentioned they are trying to signal in advance of whatever happens that they will put the blame at the president of columbia's feet, shafik. everything is coming back to a feeling that the administration has not been clear in their surging, has not shown willingness to work not just with the students, but i've been receiving messages from faculty throughout the day to say they reached out to the administration today and said can we help you at the table? can we talk to students for you? can we figure out a way to de- escalate this mark the quote i received was we have been shut out. they are trying to telegraph to her if somebody gets hurt, if a student of ours gets hurt tonight we will.the finger at you tomorrow morning. >> it is probably worth mentioning here, if you are following with us, it's a tense situation, very tense situation, at columbia university related to the war

in gaza and the encampment. students currently running straight into roadblock as far as negotiations on divestment with columbia leadership you know. it is worth noting that this columbia protest has spawned a movement that has really flowered at campuses across the country. they have had as you point out, other outcomes at school. this is by far the most pitched confrontation we've seen thus far, but i do wonder as we talked about the police presence and the students or actors, the people whoever they are, who have barricaded themselves in hamilton hall, what is the campus like? school is out soon, and columbia, if i am not mistaken, switched to virtual classes at least a week or two ago to de-escalate the situation if you will, is there a large student presents on campus independent of what's

happening here? >> reporter: oh yeah, there are a lot of students on campus and around me now waiting to see what happens to their classmates potentially. some of them are moving down to other blocks. some of then them are planning to stay here. they are very present on the ground. we have an nbc news intern who has sent us information. there are kids in their dorms who watch front and center from the windows. they had a hybrid option. they went 100% virtual today, because-- okay. massive nypd trucks coming down the street. students-- have been nervous about this the entire day. and i can tell you the 2:00 p.m. deadline became very clear yesterday after this deadline that was set, the university saying please voluntary voluntarily pack up this encampment. the second that went by it was

clear the encampment was going nowhere. we were here almost until 9:00 last night. you could feel in the air in interactions with faculty and staff and students that something was going to happen, whether that was nypd or students escalating this themselves, now it is clear the students change their strategy. they moved into hamilton hall, they are trying to create echoes to 1968 and the vietnam antiwar protests, now nypd is here. in many ways this is the absolute worst case scenario for pre-much everyone involved. going to step aside so you can take a look at what's going by. >> it goes without saying, please stay safe and all of this. your reporting is essential and vital, but you are precious to our network. if you need to move to a different area that's okay. it seems this situation is escalating. you talk about the echoes of 1968, antonia and it's impossible to talk about this

moment without the political overlay, obviously the war in gaza has become a major concern for this white house. joe biden who is running for reelection. republicans i think have seen an opportunity to lay this at the president's feet-- go ahead. >> reporter: all right, alex, i've got to tell you what's happening over here. there is a crane that is now getting placed onto a structure adjacent to hamilton hall. officers i think are planning to walk across that and essentially enter on a partial section of the roof. are you able to see that? >> we can see the crane. i guess the question is, the main entrance to hamilton hall i would assume is barricaded so they are trying to take an alternate route into the building? >> that would be windows. exactly. >> just again-- expect they will be able to access that to the side there. >> let's reset for anyone

joining us right now. there is a standoff between protesters who have barricaded themselves in hamilton hall. we think there are about 60 in number. it's unclear if they are all students or if there are agitators. nypd is on the side of columbia university. they have requested assistance from new york city, mayor adams has provided that. you will see these giant police trucks, and now a crane that, antonia, maybe you can give us detail. officers i think are on top of the truck and ready to walk across the crane to enter hamilton hall. >> reporter: that's right. this crane has a ramp structure at its top. they will rest it right on this section that connects but also separates hamilton hall from one of the residential halls next door, so they can rest the crane there. the idea would be officers walk

across that and presumably access windows. there are students in that building who will be able to see exactly what is transpiring just feet away from them. in addition to the officers it looks like more than a dozen of them on the top of the crane who are approaching right now that there are hundreds of other officers right here on the street in right gear. we know they entered campus from another point, which means whoever is in hamilton hall is not just going to see nypd enter, they are going to presumably try to access other doors, windows at another corner of this building. >> we know that-- >> reporter: this is a massive response. >> it absolutely looks that way from what we are seeing on tv right now. we know that students have been told to shelter in place, and i believe we were told earlier today, but it does not-- it sounds like there is a large student presents in and around this.

>> reporter: students have been told to shelter in place. that only came out about an hour ago. some of the students tell me though because of the barricades that have been set up-- we see an officer approaching a window right now. you can hear people screaming shame on you. boo. students are all around us. they want to watch. there are neighbors who live in this community here who want to witness what happens right now. so it's very clear people have chosen not to shelter in place. there are students inside their dorms, but there are a lot of people here on the street waiting to see what happens any moment now, alex. >> it's hard to make out the shot a little, but they are in full riot gear, yes? >> reporter: full riot gear. one of the officers has a shield in his arm. they have flashlights, and it looks like they are trying to break into that window into hamilton hall. all day long you could get glimpses of the people who were barricaded inside. they would occasionally unfurl a new banner that said

something like free palestine. one went up to the roof at one point to wave a flag for a while. and nypd had drone operators who flew drones of her head to sort of monitor for quite a while before this all began, but now they are trying to make an entrance through that window there at the corner of 116th and amsterdam. >> just for context, encampments at university of connecticut, yale, and north carolina at chapel hill, were cleared out. about four dozen encampments on college campuses remain across the country, but the sort of the initial one, the first one, and the one with the situation is clearly the most tense and has escalated here in new york city, at columbia university uptown in manhattan. it-- antonia? can you make this out? are they trying to speak with the protesters who have locked themselves inside? is that what's happening?

>> reporter: we certainly cannot hear the officers who are by that window, but it does not look like there is dialogue. i can't see another person on the end of the window, but that's because there is a shade that has been blocking visibility into the building all day. so that is some of the instability, the concern, we know when they entered around 1230 a.m., the first thing protesters did was wrapped trashbags around security cameras. so they may be walking into an unknown, whenever the officers open that window. we hear noises. sounds like an officer is going through the window. the first officer has entered the window. people are screaming on the street in response. okay, here they go. >> what we are witnessing is nypd officers in full riot gear

entering hamilton hall on columbia university compass in new york city. there are about 60 people inside that building. it's unclear if they are all students, whether they are outside groups are agitators that have installed themselves in the building, echoes of 1968 are undeniable especially in this moment. you see an enormous police presence. that is a crane they are walking up to get into the building as the main entrance has been barricaded. antonia? what is the reaction? we can hear some of it, but what is going on right now? >> reporter: there are hundreds of people chanting, shame on you. as i said, alex, this is their worst nightmare. and that is where people on many sides of this issue, even for students who are upset with classmates who escalated it to this point, who don't condone what has happened in hamilton hall, this is not what they wanted to have happened. there were high hopes around negotiations at first.

people were excited about certain faculty members who they felt had good rapport with the administration and trust from the students, and they thought there would be a possibility of a vote of the kind happening at brown university. for anyone joining us now, there has been a range of response at universities. we have seen consistent police presence in leases like texas. we have seen what happened here at columbia, where there was an entrance with arrests, then a lot of silence, and an encampment was largely peaceful for days and days. and at brown university they closed their encampment down, and that is because the protesters were able to come in agreement with the university to take it to a vote so the board of governors could consider concerns and questions and then take action themselves, and the students felt like that was a good enough middle point that it made them feel like their voices had

been heard. so the question for many has been why couldn't something like this happen at columbia? that is because the negotiations seem to have failed. >> antonia? we will go to tom winter now, but stand by. joining me now on the phone, nbc news tom winter who has been in touch with police as we are watching this unfold live on the air. what can you tell us about how police are approaching the situation, and any requests they have gotten from the university? >> caller: nbc news was first to report letter to the city of new york authorizing new york city police department and the city to enter its purpose is to make any sort of unrest arrest or assist in any way. lapd nypd cannot go on there just for whatever reason just because they feel like it.

they, there needs to be a crime in progress or a complaint, or the need to be asked for the need to be asked on. if you are looking at a red flashing light on some of these officers, that is a body worn camera. there are different officers that are going in on this special vehicle nypd has. primarily the officers that entered are part of the emergency services unit. there is a saying when the rest of us need help we call police. when the police need help they call emergency services unit. so the officers who initially went in our part of the officers that are going now you have seen some with cameras, they are there to document the arrests, to document evidence of what they are seeing inside, and they have bulletproof vests and ballistic helmets as well. their job is to go in there. the students will likely face minimum trespassing and

burglary charges, potentially vandalism charges, and it's what's happening inside that hall, alex, that has law enforcement so concerned could primarily they are concerned that there is a group of anarchist-type individuals who have no particular ideology. pro-palestine today, pro-israel tomorrow, pro another cause next week. but their main goal please say is to try to find a way to engage in a way to fight police. and that is what has police so concerned. they are worried about the students that these vigils have co-opted is their belief in a word that they could get hurt and they are worried about the lies of their officers lives of their officers. and that is why you have seen such an escalation of the last 8-12 hours, and that is what has officers concerned, and

that's why you are seeing the response tonight. >> tom, do they have evidence there are anarchists involved? is that just a general concern? i'm looking at the-- entering the hall from the window of hamilton hall. it is a number of officers. i am just wondering whether they have given any intelligence on how and why they believe there might be outside groups involved in this. >> sure. i spoke to the antiterrorism program. she was part of the press conference, they say they have uncovered evidence and produced video and evidence that they have recovered through security cameras, through social media posts online from inside the hall, and they say they identified a number of individuals that are well known to nypd over a number of years they believe are definitely inside there. they don't know the totality of

the individuals in there, but hard evidence that these people are there. time will tell. we will see what comes out of here. we will always report. we never take anybody's word at face value. investigators involved, they do have a really good handle on these groups and they absolutely believe this is not a theory. they say they have hard evidence that's the case, and that's why they are so concerned about this hall and the developments there today. >> well they are certainly responding based on that intelligence right now. us to get reporter tom winter for nbc. thanks for the breaking news and information. i want to go now to michelle goldberg for the new york times. thank you for being here. did you spend time at columbia? >> yakima for most of the day

today. >> this has been brewing for a number of days. what was the sense you going campus? >> it was very quiet today, because they completely locked down camp's. i was lucky someone from the journalism school helped me and otherwise the press doesn't have much access. it is really student journalists doing a heroic job letting the world know what is going on columbia's campus. but clearly it is both sides, you said that negotiations had completely broken down. as for the idea that there are outside agitators i think this is something we hear all the time, and so i'm not saying i have evidence one way or the other, but i think we should take it with a grain of salt. i saw one video nypd released that showed in the crowd that was surging toward hamilton hall, they pointed out one older looking woman who i guess is known to them. but i think

we have seen very little in the way of hard evidence, and i would assume most of the people in hamilton hall our students. >> it's not an overstatement to say this has animated a lot of students on a lot of campuses across the country, right? this is unfolding across america. the epicenter is here at new york's columbia university, but this has embedded a lot of passions across the country. i do wonder when we talk about the way in which the ministration has handled it, which is something everyone points to as problematic, students and faculty alike should the president at columbia, minouche shafik, testified on the hill and had i think, shall we say, differential attitude towards some of the line of questioning. she did not push back on allegations this was an inherently anti-semitic

exercise, i think to the chagrin of not just pro- palestinian groups but other students as well. being a reporter, could you contextualize that moment to her we are today? >> i think the encampment started before her testimony. so her testimony wasn't responsible for the encampment, but from what i've heard from people, her testimony through fire on a volatile situation by just making it so clear that the administration had no sympathy for the demands of protesters, for the fact the administration threw several of their faculty under the bus revealed what should have been confidential disciplinary proceedings, sometimes unknown to the professors themselves. and i think in that retrospect this makes a lot of people were really appalled by the performance of claudine gay,

and at penn and mit. this is what they were trying to avoid. the chant from the river to the sea is genocidal, that it violates their school's policies, they did not want to commit to cracking down on student protesters, and i think that decision looks pretty smart in retrospect. >> i want to read a statement we got from columbia. a little after 9:00 p.m. this evening nypd arrived on campus at the university's request. this decision was made to restore safety and order to our community. we regret protesters have chosen to escalate their actions. we learned hamilton hall was blockaded and vandalized and were left with no choice. personnel were forced from the building and a member of the facilities team was threatened. we will not risk the safety of our community or the potential for further escalation.

the leadership team including the board of trustees met her at the night into the early learning consulting with security and law enforcement to determine the best plan to protect our students and the entire columbia university community. we made the decision early in the morning this was a law enforcement matter and that nypd were best positioned to determine and execute an appropriate response. this is interesting. we believe the group that broke into an occupied building is led by individuals who are not affiliated with the university treat sadly this dangerous decision followed more than a week of what had been productive discussion with the west lawn and encampment. it talks about security precautions they are taking on campus. and they making clear the life of campus cannot be endlessly interrupted by protesters who violate the rules and the law. and look, i do think once they broke into the hall, once they seized this building, the administration was in a no win situation. no demonstration is going to

tolerate their buildings being taken over indefinitely. that said, this is less than 24 hours, so they clearly decided to move extremely quickly. and we will find out soon enough whether this was indeed outside agitators. you have columbia's administration, not just nypd, putting their credibility on the line. >> i have got to say when we talk about this it becomes the issue unfolding has become much bigger than the war in gaza with the entrance of the speaker of the house, republicans talking with the situation. mike johnson, there last week. it's become the embodiment of the left-right divide. >> i think there's something tragic about this. that netanyahu in israel is threatening to invade rafah,

and these protests have eclipsed the war they are protesting. that might be the faults frankly of us in the media. it may be the lack of strategy of some of these demonstrators that have made the protests you know, some of the demands of the protesters are now about the protests. they are demanding amnesty. it was a press conference where they were asking for food and water. gaza itself, we have kind of all lost sight of it. >> we are actually not talking about that, but what happens when a student protest reaches, or an outside protest but whatever it is, it reaches a point where the university can no longer tolerate. we were seeing protesters being detained. i believe people who had been taken out of hamilton hall, yes, people had been taken out of hamilton hall and are being placed in custody. i want to bring in msnbc law enforcement analyst and former member of obama's task force, alexander, in touch with new

york police department and sources there this evening. cedric? can you tell us of your understanding, and the hope for resolution the least violent way possible? >> i think we are going to see resolution throughout the course of the evening. it will be methodical, and i am quite sure nypd has had some time to prepare for this, and they have been called in. i think what you are seeing involve is a police department certainly that historically, there is years of experience and working in these types of situations. i think what you are seeing tonight is a demonstration of them being organized, supported by the mayor and the city at large. and i think they are at the end of this hopefully, it will go throughout the night without real incident. so i am very hopeful of that,

but i'm quite sure all of this has been planned out throughout the course of the last few days. and now that nypd has been given permission to come in, that is what we are seeing. and they appear to be doing this job very well. that does not mean you will not have those who may resist. i would hope they would use the force appropriate to the resistance. but let's hope for the best. i think we will get through this night, because this certainly needs to come to an end. >> we know police were entering with zip ties. we have no reason to believe anyone inside hamilton hall is on, right? >> well, we have no reason to believe that, but in any kind of circumstance you certainly want to go and being prepared for whatever may be on the other side of that door inside

the building. but, i don't think that's so much for concern. they are trained for these types of incidents. the force from the ground and upstairs, and i think they will be prepared on the other side, and we will be hopeful this will go without any incident throughout tonight. >> msnbc analyst, cedric alexander, thank you so much for your time tonight. i want to bring in marry ann ahern, professor at columbia university. professor hirsch, i would love to get your thoughts about what we are seeing unfolding here, which is probably the sort of worst-case scenario of how, short of a worst-case scenario, but in terms of how protest meets resolution. what can you tell us about what you have seen and heard on your time on campus?

and there have been deadlines and other deadlines and i think all of the protests have been criminalized rather than being treated as a right of students to express their opinions. and this takeover of hamilton hall last night also does not have to resolve in this police takeover tonight. as far as i know there have been no serious negotiations. there has not been professional mediation. there hasn't been enough time to resolve the situation in a different way. >> when you talk about the police presence being a

galvanizing force, can you speak more to that, the way in which the escalation here has actually brought students into the fold or engaged them in some way. >> well, president minouche shafik testified before congress, there was an encampment within the day. police were called to campus to eliminate the encampment and arrest students. this was very fast. i've never heard of anything happening so fast. that has galvanized the movement across the country and now across the world there have been encampments everywhere. and i am not sure why this has to be resolved with violence so quickly. why have there not been more discussions and conversations and professional mediation? and also visits by the

administration to the encampments, discussions with students about their demands, and about their political convictions. >> professor miarianne hirsch, if you could stay with me. i want to bring in dean of columbia university school of journalism, jelani , what are your thoughts as we watch this heavy police presence enter hamilton hall? >> caller: i think it's tragic. the one of the few things i think people would agree about in this contentious situation, is that it's very difficult for us to see. for nypd on campus. i do want to make a couple corrections, however. there have been extensive negotiations, i am aware of that, because i have been part of them. those negotiations have gone on

eight days straight, and there have been professional remediation, people from columbia law school who have been involved. and from the faculty senate and an array of other voices. negotiations proved to have met an impasse that seems not been surmountable, but the idea there was no engagement with students across that time is not true. and given everything i have done in my career, things i have written about, and my long history in writing on police brutality and use of force my motivation, and i think those on the negotiating team, was to foresee something like this happening. i will say there will be plenty of time to evaluate, but in terms of the window into defending. i got calls from people high up

in state government and people i replaced in municipal government asking the same thing people occupying the building were, the encampment, work columbia students, and there is no way to verify that, and there was a great deal of concern. recognition of the community range of behavior you could anticipate. there was a lot of from what outside the community may have been aware of. that you know, a consistent worry. >> it's really hard to imagine that this issue is in any way settled after what we are seeing unfold tonight. i wonder, jelani, professor dean, what you expect tomorrow

to look like. there are dozens who have been taken into custody. the focus has been hamilton hall, but for the issue at large decided section with columbia and its resistance to divesting i wonder what you imagine comes next. >> caller: no clue. i don't think anyone has a sense of that. i don't think we anticipated this two weeks ago. one thing probably again that we would agree on is that this is not resolved. >> i want to reset for anyone joining us at this late hour, we are following development side of columbia university. in the last hours students were ordered to shelter in place due to police activity.

that activity was a massive response by new york city police at the top of the hour. nypd officers in full riot gear entered the campus and began making arrests. it's still unclear how many students have been arrested. but what we do now is before police entered the campus an nypd official said protesters who have barricaded themselves in a university building known as hamilton hall, that those protesters will be charged with third-degree burglary, criminal mischief, and trespassing. months ago we saw dozens of officers make their way into the occupied hamilton hall from the back. police also said those in the encampments on the west campus i believe could be charged with trespassing and disorderly conduct. nbc news was first to report columbia university asked nypd to enter and make lawful arrests . columbia released a statement noting the decision to reach out to nypd was in response to

the actions of the protesters, not a cause they are championing. we have made it clear the life of campus cannot endlessly be interrupted by protesters who violate the rules of law. michelle? you point this out, and we should continue to point it out that we are talking about a situation between law enforcement and campus protesters we will call them for now, but we are not talking about the issue at hand, which is the deathly war in gaza were over 35,000 people have been killed. potentially looming invasion of rafah, and did even president trump had harsh words for netanyahu. >> he seems to be scuttling any hope at a cease-fire at any hope of keeping himself out of prison. and i think this is a failure of the media, a failure of us, but it is, these protests have clearly turned, these protests that were trying to make it

business as usual as long as this war goes on, i think they threw some of their own tactics have made the story about them. >> and i would say we started to talk about this. it's been a political opportunity especially for members of the far right to make this a plank in the war on woke, the idea that is his liberal elites flouting the law, effectively showing a middle finger to leadership and doing what they want, occupying halls, and that needs to be hit with a strong arm of law and order that is something for right for republicans, which is why you saw the speaker of the house visiting columbia not that long ago. this is something like to talk about what in the context of the policy in israel should be but in the broader context of how elites are against order and rule of law, and that the sort of bastions of elite

institutions need to be brought back to reality. >> and i think this is what members of the community wanted , when they had presidents of the schools before them and demanded a firmer response. and i think there's a reason why just today they have called more presidents in for a hearing next month. >> i want to go back to miarianne hirsch, professor of english at columbia university professor? i wonder if you could tell us as a not to what this is actually about what you have been hearing from students as the war has progressed. what more do they want to see from columbia leadership? >> divestment is one, but i think they are very serious

about the issue of divestment, which in regards to watching this incredible violence across the world, and knowing the united states and their own universities are somehow implicated in it. i know there have not been i think my misunderstanding is a symptom of the lack of communication on campus. and students students have a variety of opinions. i think one thing that we all as faculty and as students came together on, is that we did not want police presence on our campus. we have procedures for dealing with infractions we have the university senate. none of those structures have been used properly by our administration, and that has been a tremendous look of lack of trust and medication.

i want to respond to michelle goldberg's statement that this is taking a lot of attention away from the war in gaza. i think you could say that, but, i also think that there has been a tremendous gratitude from the people of gaza for the engagement of students on campuses across the world. this has brought attention, and it's a gesture of solidarity that i think is being appreciated. i think that if we can't negotiate a way out of this situation how can we expect the middle east crisis to be resolved? this is a more simple situation to resolve than a cease-fire in gaza. >> professor miarianne hirsch. we really appreciate it. michelle? we really, hamilton hall, for people who are not familiar with columbia campus in april, 1968, hundreds of students

seized the building during protests for the vietnam war i do not think that was lost to those who stormed hamilton hall. 1968, police entered through overground tunnels and 700 people were arrested. >> we remember that as a dark chapter in columbia's history, which is why it is so worth taking to see them repeated. >> putting this in the broader context of what is happening in american politics, i think when this began for a lot of people all these campus protests had that echo of the 1960s. if you like an inflection point for the country. we are barreling toward a presidential election. the country feels catastrophically divided on every issue from basic facts to an actual-- >> a democratic convention in chicago? >> i wonder if this this

imagery of nypd storming columbia in this moment is not going to reverberate in ways we cannot yet see across the political divide. >> and i think we should remember what the images did in the late 60s. even in the vietnam war when it became increasingly unpopular so did the antiwar protests. it was in part the backlash for the crime that gave us not just richard nixon, but four year oasis of jimmy carter unbroken republican rule until bill clinton. so i would expect we are seeing the backlash, but i would expect it to be ferocious. >> the late '70s were a time of retrenchment. and ronald ragan saw an agenda that was fiercer, more focused and effective than any other conservative agenda in ways we

are blocking still trying to understand. the master plan to retake the judiciary. what we saw in the effect of the vietnam war was really a brand of conservatism, and new right that the country had never seen before, and it remains to be seen. >> we will listen to police speaking after the entry to hamilton hall. >> officers enough time to get to the barricades. expected students resist arrest? did the students resist arrest? how many students were arrested? >> if you want to learn how to work with me, if i tell you i am done, i will give you all the information, but when you try to force it out of me it does not work, all right? >> okay. police are obviously not wanting to talk about what's going on at this juncture, presumably we will hear more from then or the mayors office or columbia university. once again to reset for those

of you joining us at the end of this hour the police, nypd have entered hamilton hall. a story building on columbia's campus, where approximately 60 individuals were going back to the police. let's take a listen. okay. we are obviously dealing with a lot of moving pieces here, but you see a robust police presence. police in riot gear using a ladder truck to enter hamilton hall where i think about 60 protesters were inside, barricaded themselves inside. we have reports dozens of protesters have been arrested or detained by police. we do not yet know what the charges are. nypd him at the request of columbia university, which requested assistance after 9:00 p.m. tonight. we are going to leave it there. it is time now for the last word with my friend, lawrence o'donnell. >> good evening, alex.