from the democratic party, but from participation at all. you believe that is true? >> yes and i dedicate a whole chapter. i talk about black women a lot and giving them flowers while they are living, as they should, but black men for a long time have not been t listened to. it is a clarity and all of the lights are blinking. whether or not we meet them where they are and have these conversations and listen to black male voters. i may differ from some of the analysts that come on, but this is not a race between joe biden and donald trump. it is a race between joe biden, donald trump, and the couch and there is a high probability that black men will stay at home. i am speaking directly to white progressives. look, it is not about race neutral policies. race specific solutions for race specific problems. >> this is the book. pick this up and read it so you can understand where we are now. this is one of rethe brightest brothers out there. bakari sellers, thank you my

friend. by the book. "all in with chris hayes" starts now. love you back, bye. stuck tonight on "all in" -- >> every woman lied when they came forward to her my campaign. 5% of the people think it is true and maybe 10%, we don't win. >> 2016 trump is played into evidence as the defense keeps resting. >> sleeping. we've tried a number of different devices to keep trump awake. >> tonight the judge hands-down his penalty for igviolations of the gag order. >> do you think we will see a change in his behavior because e he doesn't want to deal with this, because he doesn't want to risk going to jail? >> i don't know. >> and what we learned from the man brokering the deal between stormy daniels and donald trump. >> this takes us dright back t 2016 and those moments around the access hollywood tape. >> and a chilling plan for a

second term in trump's own words. >> they did a cover story, which is very nice. >> plus, what we know about what is driving protests nationwide and the latest installment in our ongoing series, are you better off? >> the testing and the masks and all of the things, we solved every problem. we solved it quickly. >> "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york, i am chris hayes. it was uneventful day in the manhattan election interference trial of donald trump. the morning started with the former president of the united p states being held in contempt of court, fined, threatened by the judge with jail time for violating his gag order in the case. we will have much more on that in a moment, but it was the first event in a day that included testimony from four witnesses for the prosecution. plus the jury heard from a personal banker for michael

cohen and he testified that cohen was in a big rush in 2016 when he created a new company called essential consultants llc and asked farro to speed through a payment from that company tool lawyer keith davidson. on the forms he said the money was for a retainer, but in fact it was to collect on behalf of his client, stormy daniels, to buy her silence in the lead up to trump selection. the prosecutor asked farro whether the bank process might have gone differently if cohen had told the truth about what he was up to, that it was set up to pay off an adult film actress. he said yes, we certainly would ask additional questions. in other words, trump's lawyer at the time, the guy fixing the scheme, knew the scheme was not legal and had to be concealed and the court heard from two unusual witnesses. a court reporter from e. jean carroll successful defamation

lawsuit against donald trump and the head of archives for c- span. they were there to authenticate trump's deposition from his defamation trial as well as videos of trump at his campaign rally so the jury could see him in his own words. here are some of those clips. >> it's a phony deal. i have no idea who these women are. i have no idea. i have no idea and i think you all know i have no idea, because you understand me for a lot of years. okay. when you looked at that horrible woman last night, you said i don't think so. whoever she is, wherever she comes from, the stories are total fiction. they are 100% made up. they never happened. they never would happen.

all horrible lies. all fabrications and we can't let them change the most important election in our lifetimes. >> so that was donald trump, looking more than eight years younger in my opinion, denying the stories of his assault accusers, saying he hopes they don't change the election outcome. clearly on his mind, understandable a few weeks before the election. this is october, 2016, just before the election. the same month he was allegedly approving a six-figure payoff to keep stormy daniels quiet. normally when it comes to public records like the stuff that is out there, the prosecution and defense agree on the authenticity before the trial starts. the trump team would not do that in this trial and the judge barred testimony from the many women who came forward in 2016 to accuse trump of assault. the prosecutor said to take this extra tedious step of calling expert witnesses to get the evidence in. which is funny because it draws

out this trial, which is apparently becoming quite taxing on the defendant who is reportedly mad at his lawyer, todd blanche. for people familiar told the new york times that trump has griped that blanche has not been aggressive. he wants him to attack witnesses and attack the judge, merchan. trump, who often complains about legal fees and sometimes refuses to pay them, also wonders aloud why his lawyers cost so much, according to people at the times. which brings us to keith davidson, a key player in this entire affair. a lawyer who never got money directly from donald trump, but he did represent stormy daniels and karen mcdougal and negotiated deals for both women to withhold their stories of infidelity with trump from public view ahead of the election. in court today, davidson walked the jury through the text on those deals and even relayed to the excuses that trump lawyer

michael cohen gave when the payoff to stormy daniels kinda failed to materialize. quote, he stated the computer systems were all up. my personal favorite, the secret service is in here. davidson and his client did, eventually, after a fair amount of follow-up and pestering get that $130,000, directly as you might recall, out of cohen's pocket and he says he was eventually reimbursed by the then president of these united states. joining me now are two people at the courthouse today. former prosecutor harry litman and correspondent lisa rubin. let's start where i ended on keith davidson, who is an important witness. tell us who davidson is and what he is going through today. >> is the lawyer for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, so prosecutors were taking him through the settlement payments

of both women, which as you know operated differently. the first one, ami handled. the second one, david pecker already testified he told dylan howard, do not get involved with this. i do not want any affiliation with a star. it endangers our distribution deal with walmart and i am not a bank. nevertheless, howard did get involved and he got involved by involving keith davidson who had a former relationship with stormy daniels manager, gina rodriguez, herself described as an infamous story broker. this was the underbelly of the world that david pecker kind of took us through. >> this is below the inquirer. like that is too sketchy for us, the national enquirer. you need to run this as an off book operation, because us, the national enquirer, find this to be dubious. >> i'm glad you used the word, sketchy, because sketchy comes

to mind with keith davidson. part of that is because he did not want to acknowledge his s full complicity in either of these deals. he was shadowy, for example, w about how we got involved representing stormy daniels in the first place. >> i mean it is a weird gig. >> and how the deal was resurrected after he told michael cohen after he failed to fund the settlement, i am out and by the way i don't represent stormy daniels or gina rodriguez anymore. nonetheless, michael cohen gets called back into action and the whole deal gets papered in 24 hours. we know that because of the banker. >> what was your impression? i think both of you were on the same page that pecker was an interesting witness and frank and not squarely and very upfront about the world he operates in and for that reason was a fairly credible witness. what did you think of davidson today? >> look, i thought he was also basically straight and most important he really brought us to the precipice of stormy

daniels and the crisis. there were these texts that every step and then when the access hollywood tape hits you have him talking and saying he is deschutes the end, waved the white flag. in the end he was very effective in reinforcing the notion that at this point it is a nitroglycerin crisis that has to be dealt with. >> when planet hollywood drops. >> when access hollywood drops, yes. >> access hollywood, i always do that. i don't want to defame the wonderful restaurant chain. >> great business idea. >> the key, kind of narrative point i took away. i'm following this on the slack channel, but the idea that there was the mcdougal deal, that it set off alarms i internally. at ami.

then there is the stormy deal and it kind of sputters out and michael cohen is being squarely and not really coming up and that is dead and what resurrects it is the crisis of access hollywood. >> yes and no, because the crisis precipitates the initial deal negotiations. at some points it falls apart. in mid-october after access hollywood already happens, but dylan howard and others decide it has to be dealt with, because stormy daniels and gina rodriguez are kind of now separated from keith davidson and going out and shopping her g story. >> so you've got a real problem. >> and that's the bigger point. there are hiccups, but the urgency is always there and that is most important, because really what is the defense going to say about that? it is all set up to really try to savage michael cohen, but he is out there paying $130,000, knowing he can't take someone to lunch without trump's

approval. what is the actual narrative that has him doing that that is not trying to put out this fire? >> i will say keith davidson was impossible for the prosecution today because he would not say, at least in response to a question that merchan would allow, that he understood trump was the ultimate pocketbook for the stormy daniels settlement and prosecutors desperately wanted him to say that. i think there were experienced lawyers in the room, harry included, looking at him like can you ask this question in a way the guy could answer, but he needed to lay the foundation for the fact keith davidson had an understanding at all, that it wasn't just an assumption trump was going to pay it. it was not just cohen freelancing you there and they did not get that neat and cleanly today. they might on thursday. >> there were text displayed today. we might have courtroom sketches of this. these were text between the inquirer, the ami, dylan

howard, and davidson. what is the substance of those exchanges? >> i think the substances mostly to show these guys were in touch very frequently. >> they are working this deal. >> they are working the sand they both understand that both sides have an interest in ha coming to these agreements. first mcdougal and then stormy daniels, even though davidson testified he wanted to rid himself of the whole thing. he found cohen detestable, but just when he thinks he is out he gets pulled back into doing this deal. >> flip sides of the same deal. >> quickly, 90 seconds. i will put on the clock for you to talk about the strangeness k of the e. jean carroll deposition, court reporter and c-span archives. what was that about? >> as you said, that they were not stipulating. everybody stipulates, so they were going through the sword of

first-year law school requirements for business records exception, et cetera. i thought the jury would be very bored. they actually seemed to be paying attention to this. >> take me through. i read the monologue, so i understand the point, but hammer it home. here is a campaign tape. it is public record. stipulated is accurate. >> we know this is the real voice of donald trump. >> not just that. c-span did it in the regular court -- regular course of business. >> don't stipulate. you have to establish a chain of custody of this document and authenticate it with a person who can speak with authority to its authenticity. >> that is it. you have to be able to show that it is what it looks like. >> okay and then the banker, who seems like basically he is basically like michael cohen is really rushing and desperate and he doesn't know much about

this deal, but is maybe like sniffing around it. >> i think he is saying that michael cohen was always in a rush and real estate transactions are often rushed. even though there was something a little funny about it in retrospect and certainly once we know about stormy daniels, while we were going through it it did not strike us as out of the ordinary because it was in keeping with how michael cohen behaved and in keeping with our real estate clients behave and e michael cohen represented that he was establishing a real estate consultancy. >> hold that thought, because you're going to stay right here. i want to talk about that, the gag order ruling, how trump is enjoying his time in the freezing courthouse, eight hours a day. that is all next. all next. it'e listen to science. one a day is formulated with key nutrients to support whole body health. one a day. science that matters.

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and environmentally friendly for everyone. get the facts at propane.com/now. so today we finally got the long-awaited ruling on whether or not donald trump violated the gag order in his new york election interference case. prosecutors flagged 10 instances that they said ran afoul of the judges order. most of the posts attack michael cohen, citing a new york post article calling him a serial per juror. others go after stormy daniels. today the judge agreed with the prosecution on nine of those 10 instances. judge merchan finding donald trump in contempt of court and ordering him to delete the

posts by 2:15 this afternoon, which he did. he is also to pay $9000 by friday and if he does it again the judge warned that the court will not tolerate continued, willful violations of its orders and if necessary and appropriate under the circumstances it will impose an incarceration punishment. >> harry, you're saying something when i cut you off before we went to break. do you remember what it was? >> no, but you buried the lead, because this was the first time trump is heard, next time you are going in. what preceded this was merchan saying this money was not effective and really he has now raised the money and says next time i'm coming down. >> you made the point that the $1000 fine is prescribed by new york law.

judge, you were with us and you made a point that a lot of people took a lot of notice of and i have heard back from folks who talked about the point you made in this area. you can say that there is going to be jail time and i will not tell you how much it is or where it is until after the trial so you try to get this disincentive effect. what do you think of the ruling by judge merchan today? >> the judge was totally within his discussion. he found nine violations, but there is a bit of a dilemma and it is another contempt hearing coming up on thursday and that is for more alleged violations. so if the judge finds all of those were in fact violations of his gag order, i think most people would think then he is going to send them -- send him to jail. he really can't because what he said today was going forward if there are violations. these preceded it, so we will

have 13 or 14 violations, likely with more fines. so have the judge had the violations and put them altogether and had one hearing, i think we would have a different situation where the judge probably would be inclined to say that's enough. you are going in. >> that is a great point and an important one because subsequent violations don't count. i want to enter into the record some of the posts by the defendant in this case, which again this is all very unusual. this really doesn't happen. the judge has taken away my constitutional right to free speech. i am the only president in history to be gagged. this trial is rigged by taking away my freedom of speech. the highly conflicted judge is rigging the election. he also said this is a total witchhunt. hours of sitting down and listen to nothing except exoneration and lies. the trial is going like a speeding bullet because he is working hard to make all his friends happy. >> this is today.

>> this is today. one thing he says and we have made the stroke before that it is going too fast and too slow. he is sitting there so much, but it is going so fast. two things to bring up. one is the thing we discussed, which is the refusal to stipulate is elongating the trial time, right? >> absolutely. it's hard to see how it couldn't. the fact that you have to bring in the guy who is the head of the c-span archives to go through the process by which c- span record speeches and make the jury sit through that, too. and imagine how many more times we might have to go through similar things for other videos, for example. it can't help but elongate the trial and this is a guy blaming alvin bragg for keeping them off the campaign trail when he and his lawyers have made choices that are keeping him there for longer. >> not only that, to follow-up he does not appear to enjoy himself. i don't imagine i would,

either. i don't think this is a character flaw. he does a lot of resting his eyes. we can't say what is going on. saying the rosary in his head, revelry about campaign speeches or falling asleep, whatever it is, his eyes are closed a lot in that room. >>'s eyes are closed a lot and, to me, he appears to be addressed for considerable periods of time. i spend a lot of time with my nose in my phone or computer at the courthouse, trying to transcribe or capture moments for you and our other colleagues, but every time i looked up today, particularly during the first part of the day, donald trump's eyes were closed. he could have been meditating, he could have been napping. that is not for me to say other than he appeared to be addressed. >> i brought binoculars. he was under. >> judge, let me ask you this question. the pacing of the trial so far, i want to get your sense of how

you think it is going. obviously there is the fact that defense will not stipulate to these records. after bring in experts. what do you think about the pacing so far? >> so it is really the job of the judge to make sure the trial is moving along and i know when i was on the bench and had jury trials, i was always looking at the jurors and they were looking at me, too, to see if they were with us. if i saw them nodding off we would take a recess. so i believe the pace is good. these jurors are generally interested in what is going on in the courtroom and i think it is true. there may be a few exceptions. they really want to do the work and they are paying attention to what is going on and they know that this is important. and if i could say one thing about the fines that judge merchan imposed. i put out a call to new york

legislators. they need to amend the statute that punishes criminal contempt in new york. it is ridiculous now to have a maximum fine of $1000 per violation. it was probably right at the time, because i don't think they ever envision having somebody really wealthy just blatantly ignore the orders of the court. so i hope that happens sooner than later. >> on the point of juries, if you will indulge me it is the case that people's ability to pay attention for long periods of time, all sorts of empirical evidence is pointed to that ability shrinking. we understand why that is. we have constant stimulus and distraction. this is happening every day at courtrooms across america, so this is a slice of that. the idea of remaining attempted -- remaining attentive, for everyone in the room, it has taken on a level of difficulty

or strangeness in the normal course of things that i am curious when you check in on the jury, how you think they are doing. >> i actually think they are doing really well. they all have, as you know, an individual monitor in front of them and that certainly helps, particularly when an examination is document intensive, because their eyes are fixed on the individual texts between davidson and howard or the emails and looking intently at the bank records that other people might be bored by. they are interested in the details, but the technology is assistive in that way in helping them stay engaged. they are closer to the players than anybody else and they have their own personal monitors with exhibits demonstrated for them. that having been said, i think this particular jury is especially attentive. more attentive than, for

example, the juries in the e. jean carroll trial so i thought were also fairly attentive. >> i would say it is ebbing somewhat. the best part of being in the courtroom, to really focus. there are a couple of jurors who you think if he has a shot it will hold out. they have come in and out and the texts we were talking about, you can see their attention come forward. but it has waned, i think, even in the days i've been there. they are pretty good, but they are not at the edge of their chairs. there is much less notetaking than there was. >> judge ladoris cordell, harry litman, lisa reuben, great to have you all. thank you very much. also you can get much more insight on what is happening in the trial in my podcast, why is this happening? with lisa reuben. it is available wherever you get your podcast. check it out.

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remember ronald reagan talking about jimmy carter? >> are you better off? >> are you better off? >> are you better off? >> better off. >> better off. >> better off.

>> better off. >> that you were four years ago? >> tonight we bring you another edition of, are you better off than you were four years ago? it is the question every candidate asks, even donald trump who really should not. >> are you better off than you were four years ago? i don't think so. >> well, if you think so, but it is easy enough to check. that would be april 30, 2020 when the headline of the new york times was pandemic death toll much worse than reported. that red line skyrocketing up the chart represented the 6500 deaths in one week in new york city. economy shrinks at quickest pace since 2008 plunge. far worse is yet to come. in fact the worst was yet to come. daily deaths would not hit their peak for nearly a year. maybe donald trump thinks we were better off on april 30, 2020, because he was trying to

spin his own alternate reality every day in his excruciating daily briefings. >> tonight, the national divide. with stay-at-home orders set to expire in eight more states and as they reopen, major gaps and testing. long lines across the u.s. >> the testing and the masks and all other things, we solved every problem. we solved it quickly. i don't think anyone has done a better job with testing, with ventilators, with all of the things we have done and our death totals, our numbers per million people are really, very strong. we are very proud of the job we've done. >> the push to test more americans for the virus and learn just what it is we are facing as the number of dead keeps climbing, now over 62,000. >> your son-in-law, jared kushner, yesterday said the government's response has been, quote, a great success story. is that the right tone and message? >> i don't think anybody has

done the job we have done other than at public relations, because the press won't talk about the facts. >> a staggering economic crisis for so many families and businesses. new numbers showing 30 million americans are now jobless after six weeks. >> i think you will have a very strong transition and i think the fourth quarter will be successful. next year we will have a phenomenal year economically. >> across the country, state and local governments face crushing budget shortfalls. one report estimate states will be short more than $200 billion over the next fiscal year. >> i feel good and our country is making a lot of progress. making a lot of progress. >> every time we do these, i look at it and i just think, i have walled off that little part of myself from four years ago and i think a lot of us have, which is why he can ask that western. so i ask after watching that, are you better off than you

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i want to thank everybody. you have really been treating me very fair. i want to thank time magazine. they did a cover story which is very nice. >> donald trump started the day by thanking time magazine for putting him on the cover because he is locked in the 1980s. being on the cover of time magazine is so important to him, he had a fake one hanging in at least four of his golf

houses. the actual substance of the peace paints a deeply alarming portrait of a second turn. it matches up with the reporting that he and the people around him are squarely planning an authoritarian takeover of the federal government. quote, to carry out a deportation operation designed to remove more than 11 people from the country. he would be willing to build migrant detention camps at the border and inland. he would let red states monitor women's pregnancies and prosecute those who violate abortion bands. he would deploy the national guard to american cities as he sees fit, close the white house pandemic preparedness office and staff his administration with acolytes who back is false assertion the 2020 election was stolen. i'm joined now by someone who covered trump extensively in his first term, as staff writer for the atlantic. this is in line with other reporting. i think what distinguishes it is there is an interview with

trump, although what he says in that interview was kind of as worthless as everything he says. sort of veggie on some stuff and straightforward on others, but it does seem to me that the picture is quite clear. >> no question. i've been doing stories for the past year about what trump would do if he came back to the white house and what is interesting is often we would do these stories and we had many conversations with republicans were tentatively backing trump and they would say you guys in the media are being so alarmist. i think you are trying to scare people. but he doesn't really mean these things he says in the rally. he doesn't really mean these things he says on social media. and then he gets into a setting like this and almost every time he has asked about it, he doubles down or says maybe i will go further. so i think that the reality is, trump does not even know

exactly how he will behave in office. but he has a broad picture of what he wants a second term to be about and that is revenge to his political enemies. >> i want to play you a clip of steven miller talking about mass deportation. this is something that keeps coming up again and again and i think people have to understand, get their head around what it would take, the level of force by the government to show up at people schools, homes, and workplaces. 11 million people, ripping them away, putting them in camps. the logistical fate and what it would probably provoke in terms of protest and opposition and what that would mean. here is miller describing the plan and comparing it to building the panama canal. >> it is an undertaking every bit as significant and every bit as ambitious for example is building the panama canal. it is a great undertaking.

president trump has outlined a plan that involves building large-scale staging grounds near the border. most likely in texas because of the existing infrastructure there. so you go around the country arresting illegal immigrants and large-scale raids. you have somewhere to put them. >> again, miller is kind of like a very chesty dork who likes to talk like a tough guy and like a bond villain. so there is a little bit of psi ops here, but it does seem like a genuine plan. >> miller is a troll and kind of leans into that, but he is also somebody who, by every account, is going to have a lot of influence over immigration policy in a second trump term, so i don't think we should downplay things he is saying. also listening to that, something that occurs to me is that an important way of understanding all of this stuff is that trump pares an

authoritarian instinct with a deep love of showmanship and what i mean by that is the detention camps, the idea of massive deportations, deploying the national guard to american cities, these are extremely draconian tactics and things that would look very dramatic on tv. that is where the overlap between donald trump and stephen miller is. they are both going to want to pursue a draconian immigration program that also will look really scary and get a lot of tv attention that there will be footage of and i think that really is an important way of understanding how trump plans to go about his second term. >> there is no shortage of reporting on this. there really has been good reporting on this. new york times is doing this. you've done a series. again, these visions we are doing. something on my podcast where

we are looking at trump's record. just look at what he did on various issues. called watch the stakes, on what is happening. i saw paul that has biden leading by 50 points and losing people who don't follow the political news by like 15 points. i do wonder, are you confident the sense of alarm with the reporting and people following this closely will penetrate some point into the public consciousness? >> i can tell you this is a conversation i am sure you have been having. this is happening all the time and newsrooms around america. like everybody is sort of waiting for when is our reporting about this going to start to break through? actually millions and millions of people are reading these stories. >> absolutely. >> they are people who are already very plugged into the campaign news, right?

for a lot of the country there is a deep level of exhaustion about donald trump. he is an exhausting person to think about, to read about, to watch tv about and i understand that. i do think that at some point, we are still early in the cycle, relatively speaking. september or i over -- or october, people will plug back in. what is important is that we in the media don't take for granted that everybody has been following this stuff for the past four years and try to explain the stakes and the plans that trump is making. you know, calmly and in a non- alarmist way, but in a very clear eyed and forthright way, because i do think a lot of people will come to this pretty late in the last few weeks of the election. >> last point on the department of justice, which is an area of focus. donald trump urged jeff sessions to prosecute his

political enemies all the time, in public, on twitter. it happened in front of all of us. we covered it, we watched it, we were there. but sessions generally didn't. bar was more plant and played ball a little bit more and then when the going got very tough, like a coward he issued this to donald trump and then quit, leaving other people to it. he wrote this back in december. he will be especially focused on getting right attorney general. he believes both men who held the position were guilty of grievous betrayal. it does strike me as one of the most proximate causes. causes. >> and it's also probably the single administration post he is most focused on.

every conversation i've had, with the organization, they say this is where he will need to get it right. somebody incredibly obedient who will do it he says without asking questions. you hear names like josh holly, mike lee, jeffrey clark, pam bondi, like these are people who he believes, and people in his orbit, believe will be compliant. >> yeah. >> i don't know their thinking, but that is his priority, and i do think it's a way you could see some of the most danger in another trump administers them. >> mckay coppins, thank you very much. breaking news tonight. columbia university, new york city. nypd officers in riot gear have been seen moving toward the campus. those protesters you see i believe our counter protesters, but i don't know, maybe they are supportive protesters, outside the campus gates waving the palestinian flag in the background. nypd

are expected to enter into campus imminently according to msnbc . a group of columbia campus protesters broke into a campus and occupied early this morning. they were calling for similar occupation similar as back in 1968. in a press conference earlier, new york mayor eric adams saying the campus protest has been co-opted by outside agitators. what's happening tonight comes nearly two weeks after nypd went to campus at the request of the university president arresting over 100 students and an in canada protesters demanding the university divest from israel. turn to correspondent anthony hilton is outside columbia university, in upper manhattan, and has been reporting on this for weeks now. antonio? what's going on? >> reporter: hey, chris, we are waiting for nypd to enter

campus. we are hearing officers in riot gear are on broadway. they are on the other side of the street from where hamilton hall is that which is behind me, here. that's where we believe 60 people are barricaded inside. and we know from our nbc news reporting, as well as an nbc news intern, also a columbia student, there are students inside that building. but nypd says there is very likely a presence of outside women unaffiliated actors, some of whom may be an artist, and people who have been professionally trained and are prepared for an nypd response, so that is some of the fear and tension on the ground, is what happens when nypd interest, what will they encounter as they get to the doors of hamilton hall? and students on all sides are feeling some sense of frustration. pro-palestinian students angry that it's gotten to this point that they haven't had a more successful dialogue with the university to de-escalate. and then jewish students, who say they are angry with the administration, that they set

these arbitrary deadlines, they kept letting them pass, that they made threats they don't follow through on, and it's left them confused. we spoke to a mom to take a freshman child out, because she was done. she felt like things were too unstable on campus. >> stay with us, antonio. i want to bring in dean of the columbia journalism school, joining me now by phone, has been involved in negotiations. what is your understanding about the developments, tonight? >> caller: chris, i am standing in front of butler library, a centerpiece of the campus. the occupation has been taking place on the west lawn. the main occupation, before the takeover of hamilton hall but was taking place on the west lawn in front of butler library, which is about the money going to say, about 200 feet away from hamilton hall. there is a mass of police on

the 114th street side of campus . the downtown side of campus. and, that street is blocked off, as are several other streets, i am told. i am told they are blocked off to 110th. 114th street is the closest side to hamilton hall, so the suspicion is that police will enter through that gate, which was locked throughout most of the day. they will make entry. one other thing i will point out is that there are between four and six drones flying over campus, and arrival of the police the first time they came on april 18th. when we saw the drones nypd drones is not legal to fly any

other kind of drone over the campus. and so the emergence of those drones seems to signal police action is imminent. finally there has been a shelter in place email that went out to the campus from the central public safety authorities, telling people, particularly students who are in the dorms, that if you are in a student housing you should remain inside. that is roughly what is happening here right now. in the background you can probably hear the drums and trance coming from protesters both inside, rather inside the gates outside hamilton hall. >> i want to bring in andrew, staffer for the you darker new yorker for reporting on how campus was torn over gaza.

you talked to a lot of folks there. it has felt like it's driving towards this point, although the decision by the president to call in nypd does seem to be if you go back, the moment that all of this escalated both at columbia, and across the country, there were, like, half a dozen encampment before that, and now dozens across the country afterward. >> yeah, i don't see how this has made anyone safer, honestly. i don't see how come out of the university's self interest, that this helps by their own lights. i mean, the professors, they put out a statement sing we hold the university administration responsible for injuries caused by nypd on campus tonight. and it's not like, this all started when the president shafik went to be on capitol hill, it's like those republican lawmakers are happy

with her. expect they are calling for her to resign. >> she's done this once before. now they are saying the inmates are still running, so it's a massive breach of protocol, i don't see who is safer. everyone on campus is enraged by it. i've spoken with jewish zionist students who like the protests, it's also seemed to escalate, he pushed everything outside the campus where any random new yorker could come in and attend and be drawn like moth to a flame, that's when you have a this escalation read it just doesn't seem like there is a plan here. it doesn't seem like there is an end game. at brown university this afternoon there was an encampment that got their main demands met, and the demand, i just saw this, the administration said we will, and they said we will pack up

and go home. it seems if you talk to the protesters and negotiate-- >> although you have been involved in those negotiations, and clearly they have not gone that way to, at columbia. >> caller: let me add to yes, okay. so let me add to that that there have been negotiations going on up until about an hour ago actually. and probably a frustrating experience for all parties involved. there's been extensive dialogue and a number of different offers that have been put on the table over the course of the seven or eight days now that they've been involved in this. so, we have not liked the dialogue, we have lacked progress maybe. on the other side of it, there has been concern-- so here is, you know, the context for this,

for my colleague, andrew, at the new yorker, as well. one thing worth bearing in mind here, is that there is a great deal of concern about the outside elements. there are people who are not affiliated with columbia university, and a great deal of concern at the municipal and statewide level of a possible threat that those individuals might represent, whether one of them has brought a weapon onto campus. people are pretty sure about the range of behavior they can anticipate from the students, but there is a wildcard in terms of not knowing who is in that building. so that has been a significant factor i think accelerating in the decision-making process here. >> jelani cobb, antonia hylton, still covering for us, think like you all. that is all in.