now, before the brd to sell mcd to the national enquirer for a million dollars. at one point, prosecutors revealed the text exchange between davidson and the tabloid's editor where davidson joked, throw in an ambassadorship for me. i'm thinking aisle of man. when asked whoi he made the joke, he said it was a reference to trump's candidacy, that if the tabloid bought the story, it would help trump. i want to bring back in vaughn hillyard. kimberly is a boston globe columnist and msnbc political analyst and jeremy is still with me. criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor with the manhattan d.a.'s office. if you were donald trump's defense attorney, what about this morning's testimony worries you most? >> well, i think it's established that not everyone had an agenda. you have farro who's connecting

the dots. you have the sense of urgency. establishing intent or basis. that court of texting you just referenced, i'm saving the future of potential president's backside. everything is really starting to establish to keep the proof beyond a reasonable doubt that there's intent and knowledge and there's a reason why it's still happening. >> so carol, i want to go back to 2019 and that is when davidson did an interview with abc. he talked about the hush money payments. why he thought they happened and here's what he said back then. >> the access hollywood tape was the motivating factor and this case actually resolved. it defeats the argument that this was done for purely personal reason and that this was in fact done for political reasons. because after the access hollywood tape that something

like this could be the straw that broke the camel's back. >> again, i want to go back to the idea if i can first, carol, donald trump, his team, would like you to believe that anything that was involved in a cover up was trying to protect his family. right? he said as much in the opening argument. if he testifies to that, that the access hollywood tape threatened donald trump's candidacy so there was real urgency to pay off women who could hurt his campaign even more, how critical is that? >> very critical because this is the man who's receiving money for his clients and he understands exactly why the money is being paid. he talked about an ambassadorship in 2019. the reasons why this money was being paid. because it followed the same course. they couldn't have another access hollywood debacle on their hands so they're accepting this money to hush up this story so that donald trump's electoral

campaign will not be affected. that is very important to the prosecution's case, obviously, because they're trying to make this misdemeanor into a felony and in order to do that, they'd have to show an interference with election laws, campaign finance laws. this is the key to making this a felony. >> you know, it's interesting to me, kimberly, and i'd like your reaction to this. that everything we've heard from folks who are inside the courtroom, folks who are inside the overthrow room, and we talked about the fact that he seemed to have his eyes closed a lot of the time. whether he was sleeping or not, we don't know. at times when you think it would be difficult to listen to, for most people, it would be difficult to listen to an exchange where you're asked about an affair that you allegedly had. when a question is asked, did melania know in an exchange, donald trump seems to be, maybe he's tired, but you could also

argue he's disciplined. he's not reacting. at least in front of the jury, which is what any defense attorney would tell you. don't belie any thoughts, feelings you might have to the jury. does it surprise you? >> well, i won't say that i'm surprised. i will say that it is difficult for his defense if they'regoing to make the case that the reason for any money to be paid to keep a story quiet would have been to protect his family or to protect his wife as opposed to the campaign. his demeanor is something that the jury can see. whether it's entered into evidence or not. and that clearly cuts against this idea. but it's also the idea that if any of us were facing a criminal indictment or in a criminal trial as a defendant for them to lose such interest in parts of the case. even if it is some of the more

technical testimony that happened this morning. that's really interesting. i don't think that's a great way. i disagree with the argument that maybe he gives an illusion of the innocent. i don't think so. i'm really gob smacked that one of his attorneys isn't sitting and pinching him to make sure his eyes stay open throughout. >> you're not the first person i think to suggest that they've tried any number of things but so far, apparently, that has not worked. let me ask you about something that happened during the morning break. that was a discussion between the attorneys and the judge about whether the d.a.'s team can introduce evidence of trump's pressure campaign against witnesses. something that the judge had previously ruled they could not do. do you think things have changed enough that you think the judge might change his mind? >> the d.a.'s office has to be a little bit careful here about piling on and we just had a ruling in the harvey weinstein

case by the highest court in the state of new york saying that the prosecution went too far in introducing evidence of other acts. other things outside of the issues at trial here. the allegations in the indictment. they went too far and weinstein's conviction was reversed on that basis. it's a little bit of a surprise to me that the d.a.'s office is pushing this argument that they want to be able to cross examine donald trump on the most recent violations of the gag order. it seemed a little bit extremist to me. but these are apparently part of the d.a.'s evidence that this man cannot follow rules. he will do whatever is necessary to in the short-term, advance his own interests and their argument is that is part and parcel of the allegations in this -- >> decision by the judge, right,

he fined him $9,000. he said take all those posts down by 9:15. he beat that by about 45 minutes. they were all taken down. going forward though, the judge said future violations could cost 2500. could be 150,000. could be jail time. let me get your thoughts on the gag order. >> i think it's absolutely appropriate and should be considered in dealing with cohen and daniels if they're going to take that position. >> earlier, the other thing the judge said, that cohen and daniels, who have been talking about this, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. >> the relationship with his attorney and the oval office and trump tower's may be trump's house but when you're at 100 center street and you're in the trenches, that's my house and you listen to my rules and i'm not standing by you outside of the courtroom, even if you have

your agenda and politics, which i understand, but i am here to defend you within the four corners of that court. if you're going to work against me, you are going to suffer the pain from that. not because of me. if you don't like that, go elsewhere. obviously that can't happen at this point, but the point i'm getting to now is because donald trump is saying the things he is saying, he's potentially exposing himself to things he could be crossed on if he testifies. the fines are -- in the sense he can get his message out for cheap. >> he may also raise far more money off that than he pays. >> i would just finish by saying if the judge does decide to put him in, it doesn't mean that in the middle of trial, all of a sudden, donald trump is shackled and put in. something could happen at the beginning of the trial, later on. hopefully it doesn't get to that point though i fear that donald trump, because his attorneys aren't reigning him in, this is going to continue. >> this is going to be i think one of the most fascinating things to watch in this trial. we saw donald trump whether

pushed by his lawyers, listen to what the judge said, took down those postings. it is very hard for him. he is someone again who has always been able to do what he wants to do and it's hard for him as well. what jeremy says makes common sense. you hire someone. you pay them a lot of money. you rely on their experience and when they say this is what you need to do, this is how you need to behave, presumably most people with their futures on the line would listen. we're going to have to wait and see, aren't we, what donald trump decides to do with what the judge and his lawyer have to say to him. >> we will. and i think it's very likely we will see future admonitions and contempt rulings if donald trump continues this behavior. we have seen, whether it's his attorneys, his advisers, whether

it's people in the white house who he picked. his cabinet members who were like a revolving door of people because they did not listen to him. he believes he knows the best way to do everything including the best way to message to his supporters on truth social. whether it violates the gag order or not. so i think he's a terrible client to have if you want him to listen to you. so i would not be surprised if we see orders like this at all. >> let me go to what's going to happen because we're seeing movement around the court. carol lam, what's the most important thing you'll be looking for when this testimony resumes? >> so, chris, for a prosecutor, please remember that the evidence has to come in witness by witness and one witness may testify about a number of things on the timeline and it may be confusing to the jury. so what the prosecutor is keeping their eye on is closing

argument. because closing argument is whether they look back on all the evidence and tie it together for the jury. sometimes they use a timeline. sometimes they track the indictment and they say here's the evidence of the violation of this count. count one. here's the evidence of the violation of this count, count two. you saw some tedious testimony this morning. what we're going to be looking for is the build up to more sensationalist witnesses like cohen, daniels and perhaps karen mcdougle. what we're looking for is is their testimony going to make sense in the context of what they've heard. is the jury going to understand everything they're saying and why they're being asked these questions and what part of the story this plugs into? all of these witnesses have to corroborate each other. we're not getting a lot of advanced notice about who the next witnesses are going to be because the prosecution is

concerned about statements donald trump might make that might intimidate them. >> vaughn, here comes donald trump. as i said, we're starting to get a sense of some movement. the assembled press is there and he gave them the fist pump. he often gives him that, the thumb's up, lets them know he's going to talk to them later. sue and lisa were talking about for all it mundaneness this morning, there are a lot of interesting changes that would get the attention and keep the attention of the jury. the question everybody wants to know is when are we going to see a karen mcdougle, a stormy daniels? talk about what we know going forward and what we don't know. >> we could very well see mcdougle shortly. look, having keith davidson come forward is sort of the

intermediary between mcdougle and daniels with michael cohen and dylan howard and david pecker at the national enquirer. we are now connecting these two entities together. we're going to be looking at the witnesses who are at the heart of this. and now the question is do karen mcdougle, stormy daniels, to carol's point, do they have the corroborating testimony or evidence to show that donald trump directed the scheme to play out here. that is an outstanding question. having keith davidson answer these questions methodically and in chronological order. we started off in june with him coming with that text message to the national enquirer editor saying quote, i have a blockbuster trump story. then one month later, knowing they were going to be competing with ami and abc was allegedly interested in getting mcdougle's story. you have the editor of the national enquirer messaging

keith davidson saying quote, we are going to lay it on thick for her. so you suddenly have these players here who are so instrumental to understanding whether this was actually a conspiracy here at play. i think it's important. we were talking about the likes of karen mcdougle and stormy daniels here. these are not political figures. we've got to continue to come back to that. that in the middle of all this is a republican nominee who you just saw walk into the courtroom followed by senior adviser, jason miller, as well as club for growth president, david mcintosh. you have ken paxton, ag out of texas. eric trump, his own son. so really for the first time in stark contrast to the first two weeks, you've seen donald trump coming with a cast of not only political, but also a family member and other political allies here to have his back inside of that courtroom at a

time when the testimony is only going to increase the pressure on him and his legal defense team is only going to rise as the testimony mounts. >> we're waiting for 2:15 to hit. it is 2:15. testimony is going to resume. i don't know. this is something that's been talked a lot about, vaughn. that unlike many defendants, donald trump's support system has been really his lawyers, right? to the point where last week, it was uncomfortable, they thought, for him to be sitting by himself and they had lawyers who were moving chairs so that he would have somebody next to him when he otherwise would have been alone. it might be significant, the fact that eric trump is there. >> right. and look for donald trump. he feels he is being restricted in what he can do and base off

this gag order and the fact he has found to have violated it with social media posts, he is being restricted from attacking witnesses that are crucial to this or questioning the jury and specific jurors' motives by being among those that are impanelled. so for him, he needs allies from the outside and while we have seen up on capitol hill, some people like marjorie taylor greene or matt gaetz come to his defense. for him, donald trump likes to see people defending him. that's where he was talking about last week, thousands were out here wanting to protest but couldn't get near the courthouse. that's just not fact. donald trump, by airing that out, he is telling the world he wished he had seen thousands of people coming out to defend him, protesting outside of this courthouse despite that not being a reality. now being able to see his campaign team by his side, at least he knows there are people at least visually defending him. that's why this isn't like alina

hobba, her coming out to the courthouse steps and blasting the judge and blasting the prosecutor. blasting attorney general james. that's not what's going on this time. blanche is much more measured in keeping the defense contained to the courtroom. >> let's bring folks up to date because all the parties are back and gathered and donald trump has been chatting with one of his lawyers and keith davidson is coming back to the witness stand. wiles and trump have gone back to their seats in the gallery along with ken paxton. everything is settling down. everything is moving in that direction to get back to resume. let me go to you, jeremy, because where we left off specifically, i'm going to read again from our document, was why, to davidson, why did you

need this to happen? why did you need to make this agreement? the answer was because she at the time, at that time, this is nonprivileged information, she add announced her desire not to tell the story about her interlude with donald trump. they essentially ended it there going to a zoom invitation that involved a number of people who we know, but where do you pick up from there? >> you pick up from there that it wasn't her intent to go and then sell that story and tell that story to another party, which was abc. and it wasn't her agenda to make hay out of it to selfishly hurt the president. she wanted to keep it quiet. she's a credible person. this whole story from daniels through mcdougle is really an effort to keep it quiet so the president's election was not going to be impacted and try to take it back to that underlying crime that bumps up that investigation with business records. >> does it make sense that mcdougle could be the next

witness? >> absolutely. but i'd hold it close to the chest if i'm the prosecution. >> which they're doing. >> right. i'm not giving them anything. no reason to give them anything. >> by them, you mean the defense. >> correct. you have to give them the witnesses, provide discovery. i'm not telling them who's next. >> carol, vaughn, kimberly, jeremy. please stand by. in 60 seconds, all eyes and ears on america's most famous ex-fixer. will cohen's comments outside of court hurt him being a critical witness in this trial? him bein witness in this trial? but i'm done struggling. now i sleep with inspire. inspire? inspire is a sleep apnea treatment that works inside my body with just the click of this button. a button? no mask? no hose? just sleep. yeah but you need the hose, you need the air, you need the whoooooosh... inspire. sleep apnea innovation.

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you. for example, he promised on x on april 24th that he will cease posting about trump on x or his podcast. something clearly prosecutors would like him to stop doing, but apparently that did not include his tiktok live because here he was last night. >> when i put out that tweet that turned around and said that i was not going to discuss anything to do with the trial or my former employer or anything like that. i think i've lived up to that. the maga morons, hook, line, and sinker. donald trump told them one plus one equals three, they will fight you tooth and nail. that's the crazy thing, too, right? those hats are [ bleep ] -- >> oh, my god. >> other people, oh, my god, everything about trump, you hate it. that's not true. it's not true. i am just saying that they are

not the kind of hats that you wear to, i don't know how to describe them. with the string that goes across the top. i mean, it's just, it's an ugly hat. >> they have the string. >> it's an ugly hat as his red, gold sneakers are. i mean, you know. his sneakers are ugly, too. >> i want to bring in "washington post" staff writer, peter jameson, who just wrote a piece on cohen. and jeremy is back with us. peter, you did such a deep dive. so here's a guy who says i'm not going to talk about this on x. i'm not going to talk about donald trump on my podcast. and yet to raise money and if people are not familiar with that live version of tiktok, people can post emojis and he makes money off of it. so that's what all that stuff is popping up.

but is this kind of classic michael cohen? >> look, michael cohen is making a strong case for himself being the most irrepressible star witness in history at this point. i mean, he's, you know, he's written two memoirs on his experiences with former president trump. he's hosted a very popular podcast, actually had a number of celebrities on to talk about his personal journey. working for trump then turning against him and also his broader thoughts on trump and the political movement he leads. i think this is the classic michael cohen. he's been very chatty in a way that i'm sure has given prosecutors tense moments about the things he, you know, directly or indirectly, the things he will be addressing when he takes the stand in this trial. >> maybe chatty bordering on,

can't stop himself, jeremy. and also, i guess we can make the argument that may not eve describe it because what happened today in court, there have been complaints from the defense side, look, you've got this gag order on donald trump and he can't talk about witnesses but witnesses are going out there and they're saying all this stuff about my client to which the judge said they need to be careful. they need to watch because why not, there's a chance that donald trump would be able to respond to them. how much is there from prosecutors from michael cohen going on? >> out of the gate, it's, i mean, being cruel to people who are acting sophomoric to say that michael cohen is being sophomoric. so the donald trump. they can't control trump, but they can control cohen. >> can they? >> if you let me finish my

sentence. to a certain point, they can. they can be on top of him and tell him you are going to subject yourself on the stand. we're going to try to take some of the steam and bring out your credibility issues because they're going to cross you on it but the more you do it, the more you're going to be portrayed and in fact, will be a guy who has an agenda who lacks credibility, who when you leave this courtroom when you're done, it's going to be following you for the rest of your days. is that what you want to do? and don't ruin this case. we're doing everything we can to find those pieces to corroborate you so it's not just on your shoulder. whether it's david pecker. whether it's any witness who's come before us. but if you continue to do that, you are going to damn this case and that's going to be on you and we can only protect you so much. >> we don't know what's been said to him but it would make sense to me, peter, that what jeremy laid out would be something prosecutors would say.

don't put this case in jeopardy. don't put your testimony in jeopardy. we are going to try to do what we can to essentially rehabilitate you. i don't think, based on any conversations i've had or seen with cohen, that he wants to ruin the case. he would like frankly to see donald trump pay for what he believes he has done. so why is he doing this? i know i'm asking you do get into his brain. why? >> so the problem here is that you know, as you pointed out, cohen's credibility as a witness will be a central issue in this case. it may well end up being the central issue depending on what documents the prosecution can produce. with every statement, with every thing a witness writes. any way they rehash a story of what they're going to be telling

on the witness stand just gives defense attorneys more fodder to pick apart their statements. to look for potential inconsistencies. and to present those as challenges to michael cohen's credibility. so you know, what strikes me about him is i think this is kind of attention at the heart of his personality. certainly the heart of his public persona. michael cohen is now someone who's rebranded himself as a truth teller. someone who's speaking out against a powerful and vengeful person but we're now in a situation where speaking out that way can actually hinder the cause he's trying to advance. so i think that's the struggle we're watching sort of play out here. >> so as we were talk about the gag order and two men who continue to talk about things that maybe their lawyers would prefer they not talk about, jeremy, donald trump may have been busy over the lunch break

because there was a new posting on truth social. the judge has taken away my right to free speech. i'm the only presidential candidate in history to be gagged. this trial is rigged and by taking away my freedom of speech, this judge is rigging, extra word in there, 2024 election, election interference. this is nothing new and nothing true. so it's important to say that, but it doesn't break the gag order, does it? because he's allowed to say that about the judge. >> it's not a witness. not the prosecution's family. the gag order's limits so it's okay for it to be there. if you're not wanting to stand on top of the table and scream and say donald trump has decimated the criminal justice system and making a mockery of it for his own selfish game. unless they forget, he's also innocent in the courtroom. but for him to make such statements so dangerous that

people are going to grab on to it and run with it, it's despicable. terrible, horrendous. this is where again, there's no one controlling him. needs to grab him by the back of his neck and say stop. stop it. it's deplorable. >> back for a second to this former fixer, michael cohen, peter. you said that when he takes the stand, it's going to mark the climax of cohen's transformation. he has described himself as the canary in the coal mine for millions of americans mesmerized by trump. what are you going to be watching and listening for from his testimony and anything he say about his relationship with trump when he testifies? >> well -- kind of questions, one that's very important inside the courtroom when it's not so important inside the courtroom about cohen. one is the extent to which people truly buy into this story that he's a reformed human being.

he's now following his moral true north and trying to do the right thing. not motivated by self-interests or vindictiveness towards his former boss. the much more important question inside the courtroom is not that kind of, doesn't have that metaphysical framing to it. it's more just about can cohen be trusted in terms of what he is telling the jury and perhaps even more importantly, can the prosecution give jurors the confidence in what he's saying by corroborating what he's saying with either the testimony of other witnesses or any documents that they may have. i think cohen's demeanor when he takes the stand will be important. his delivery, how he can stand up under cross-examination. i also think the supports that the district attorney's can provide to sort of buttress what he says to the jury will be extremely important. we still don't have a great sense yet of what those are going to be so i'll be watching for that as well. >> i just want to say your article is such a smart and

nuanced look at michael cohen, who for many people has become a bit of a caricature. so thank you, peter, for coming on the program. and jeremy, you're going to be staying with me throughout the hour. coming up, we've got new reporting that the lawyer who upended his career to represent donald trump is now on his bad side. the behind the scenes tension after the hush money trial, next. n after the hush money trial, next with cascade platinum plus, i have upped my dish game auntie, in that dishwasher? watch me platinum plus gives you the highest standard of clean, even in your machine. clean enough for you? yeah! scrape. load. done. cascade platinum plus. smile! you found it. the feeling of finding psoriasis can't filter out the real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready for your close-up. or finding you don't have to hide your skin just your background.

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we are back following the hush money trial which is back from lunch and i want to give you a bit of color of what's happening inside the courthouse because according to laura jarrett, jurors have been smiling as some text messages have been read. they're between dylan howard, who was the editor and chief of the enquirer and keith davidson. he's the attorney that represented both mcdaniel -- stormy daniels and karen mcdougle in their deals for hush money. she said jurors are smiling at all the profanity laced text messages between dylan and howard. i will not read those to you. but in the end, davidson said the deal was frustrating for everybody involved. davidson says to howard, yes, i believe so. i told cohen, michael cohen, this never would have happened without you and the text back

from howard of the national enquirer to davidson was he's hopeless. oh, well. another one done. from inside the hush money trial, our reporter also says that former president trump was whispering back and forth with his lead lawyer, todd blanche today, urging him to make stronger arguments about the evidence that can and can't be admitted. that comes after just this morning "the new york times" reported that trump has been complaining that blanche quote has not been following his instructions closely and has been insufficiently aggressive. mr. trump wants him to attack witnesses. attack what the former president sees as a hostile jury pool and attack the judge. keep in mind blanche is someone trump is known to like but now faces a familiar problem. how do you handle a client like donald trump? kimberly, carol, and jeremy are

back with me. jeremy, we saw some examples in opening statement, actually, of blanche appearing to nod to trump's desires. he mentioned trump had built this large, successful company, but that will only get you so far when it comes to donald trump. so as a lawyer, how do you find a balance and we talked about this earlier but i didn't get to ask the question. how do you find a balance between doing what your client wants, you work for him, and doing what you know is best for him. >> it's funny this is coming up. about a month ago, i had a trial. i was picking a jury. my client wanted a juror that i disagreed with. we went back and forth, not in the presence of the jury. i made a decision, said this is the right person. ultimately my client acquiesced. donald trump is not going to do that. i think unfortunately for mr. blanche, he's playing to the

nar of donald trump and he has to put his client in the right place. >> and maybe he's not thinking about this, carol, but i am. the fact that todd blanche isn't just his attorney here, he's also for two federal criminal cases. in florida and washington, d.c. so this relationship could set the stage for a long slog. not just in this courtroom, but a couple of others, that arguably have some higher consequences for the former president. how do you think their interactions here could play into those cases going forward and would you think blanche would be thinking about that? >> well, as jeremy points out, these differences between client and counsel, usually almost always occur outside of the presence of the jury. in some instances, it's very natural. the client has a lot on the line and if they don't think they're being fought for in the

courtroom then they become very upset about that. but remember that donald trump always plays to a different audience than his attorneys in the courtroom. i think what todd blanche knows that being hostile and irritated and angry and sarcastic in the courtroom is not going to play out well with either the judge, who makes a lot of rulings about what evidence comes in and out, or the jury when they go back to deliberate on the case. and the moment it might give some satisfaction to donald trump, but that is not the way to win a case. it was always emphasized as trial attorneys, you want to have the three cs. cool, comfortable and most of all, competent. that's the way you win a case. >> though it is worth reminding folks, kimberly, trump has been admonished by the judge. he's been told, quote, let's try

to keep it short and let's do better. i can't imagine that's something a trial attorney wanted to hear from a judge, to do better. so fair to say, do you think, kimberly, that the challenge with trump can also be a problem with the judge. you don't want the judge to lose trust in you. >> that's absolutely right. i mean at one point at the beginning of the trial, we're told that the judge said to blanche, you're losing credibility with this court. if a judge ever said that to me when i was a practicing attorney, my soul would leave my body. that's the worst thing you want to hear a judge say to you. while it's true that donald trump has always said he wants his code, referring to a previous attorney who fought in the political way that donald trump likes. he ended up charged and disbarred at the end. there's really not a lot good that can come not only of you as

an attorney. there are several of donald trump's former attorneys who are under indictment right now. or in terms of your case. his attorney was sort of the fighter that he wanted but he lost that case with e. jean carroll so todd blanche, it's important for every defendant to have a strong defense and attorney for our judicial system to work, but that good deed will not go unpunished for blanche. >> sometimes expect the unexpected with donald trump and it would be a very awkward approach to take, but there's also that thought in the back of my mind that donald trump wants to set this up for an appeal. knowing full well he's going to lose. and if i can poke enough at the judge and make the judge do something inappropriate or become bombastic and angry, use something atypical or my attorney does something improper, at least i could have some ground to challenge this

and still play to the press. that could be part of his thought process. >> so -- we're making a big jump. so i want to state that, but if he were to be convicted and he were to appeal because that would happen, right? any conviction, you're going to appeal, especially on a felony. what happens in the meantime? >> even if he was sentenced to jail -- >> unlikely. >> he wouldn't be in. he'd be out. he'd be able to fight it from the outside then he'd become the president or not and if he becomes the president, it changes. where are they going to go if he wins on appeal. are they going to try again? to be clear, i was not saying he was going to be convicted but in his mind if he believes there's a real chance he can be convicted, i'm going to bring out all the stops. use this angle of appeal. >> kimberly, carol, and jeremy. i think you're going to stand by. coming up, a former top executive who spent 18 years working for donald trump joins me live with her impressions of

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just a little note on day nine of this trial that the jury has seen but not heard from donald trump and even though he has said in the past he is going to be a witness, it is possible

and lookly they will never hear from him, but he has to sit there and listen to all the things that are being said about him and what's happening in court right now is this. that the prosecutor is saying to keith davidson who was the editor of the national enquirer, do you know someone named stormy daniels? yes, she is a client of mine also known rather davidson was the lawyer representing her again in her deal with the national enquirer. yes, she is a client of mine. also known as stephanie clifford. she was talent managed by gina rodriguez and gina referred stormy to me. she was a talent manager and she was stormy's manager. that is right now. what donald trump is listening to in court and as we stay on top of the testimony, i want to bring in someone who spent years working with donald trump. barbara res. former executive vice president of the trump organization.

also authored the book, tower of lies. jeremy is also with me. barbara, we have been hearing today for the first time in some detail people talking about karen mcdougle and talking now about stormy daniels. we heard at the end of last week that there were key people surrounding donald trump who not only knew of them but saw them at trump tower. people who donald trump had said unequivocally he doesn't even know who they are. as someone who was to close to him for so many years, i just want your general impression of this trial so far. >> as far as what you just covered, there's a woman that was interviewed, for 15 or 20 minutes. rona graf. she's been working for him for a

long time. got to know her pretty well and was friendly with her. norma, trump's number one and she knew everything. and nothing happened with her. no reading. she made an arrangement, saw the people. she made sure people came and went and. she retired and rona stepped into her role and i'm pretty certain that rona knew all about making meetings with these different women and where they were going to meet. just like they all knew about how he set up marla maples on his boat in atlantic city so he could have her down there and moved ivana up to new york at the plaza. there's a handful of people he

ever trusted and those two are rona so she knows a lot more than she said. >> well, there's going to be far more testimony to come from a lot of people to come, but you said something that was so interesting to me because there have been a lot of reports that donald trump's biggest fear here is he could end up going to jail. and you said in an interview that your impression of trump in court isn't that he's afraid of the legal peril he's in, but that he's angry as hell. why do you think that? >> i think donald has spent a lifetime, i've observed this and i've observed a change, believing that virtually he can't do any wrong. he is above the law. and nothing's ever going to happen to him. just things like these violations of these gag orders. he should be in jail for doing that already.

everything that he was told not to do, he's doing. what does he think he can get away with anything. but how does he feel about sitting in a courtroom and having things said about him? he's curious, absolutely, and needs somebody to blame. he will never, ever accept blame for himself and even in the opening remarks which worked against him, he didn't allow the attorney to even say look, this is a man who made mistake, but he's a good man. trump will not allow any of that. so he doesn't admit to anything but now he's got to find someone to blame and ultimately someone to punish. does he fear going the jail? i don't think he's capable of that. i don't think trump is capable of believing that that could happen to him. just my opinion. >> i only have a minute left but i want to ask you quickly if i can, today is the first day we have seen a member of the trump family join him in court.

his son, eric, is sitting directly behind him. do you think he's leaning on his kids or family right now? >> leaning on them, well, i mean -- affairs and paid women off. he felt bad he couldn't go to his wife's birthday party and supposedly she is very upset now. he uses his family and continues. i don't know that the others are available to him, but he's there. that's something. >> before we go, we have to go, jeremy. do cohen and trump share this that either lawyer might argue you don't have to think he's a nice guy, a good guy. that doesn't mean that he's not telling the truth or that he deserves to be convicted.

>> absolutely, a drug dealer can be a victim of a crime. a bad guy can do bad things but in this moment, he's telling the truth. put that aside, sets his credibility. you'll get to the conclusion. >> barbara, jeremy. thank you. make sure to join us every weekday from 1:00 to 3:00 p.m. our coverage continues with katy tur reports after this. rage cony tur reports after this you founded your kayak company because you love the ocean- not spreadsheets. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire

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and mcdougal and. the former attorney for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal is on the witness stand in manhattan. he's been on the stand for much of today. keith davidson negotiated the alleged hush money agreements for both women back in 2016. and while his tone on the stand today is not exactly colorful, the evidence jurors are seeing, specifically the text messages between davidson and dylan howard, those text messages are colorful. did he cheat on melania, howard asked davidson in a june 2016 text message, referring to karen mcdougal. do you know if the affair was during his marriage to