that is part of the process of both trying to say to the jury, no, you are going to hear things from michael cohen you have heard from others. the other is they are going to think about how to rehabilitate him on redirect. that's something that i'm quite sure they are prepared for. >> thank you so much for being with us this morning. appreciate it. that wraps up the hour for me. i'm jose diaz-balart. you can reach me at social media. you can watch clips from our show at msnbc.com/jdb on youtube. thank you for the privilege of your time. katy tur picks up with more news right now. right now on "andrea mitchell reports," former president trump found in context of his gag order and fined by judge merchan who threatened jail time if donald trump refuses to respect the rules.

a live report from the courthouse steps in a moment. protesters broke into a building on columbia's campus overnight. what they are demanding today and what action the university is threatening in response. israel puts a new cease-fire proposal on the table. will hamas take it? ♪♪ good to be with you. i'm katy tur. andrea mitchell is traveling with antony blinken in the middle east as he tried for a seventh time to get israel and hamas to agree on a hostage deal. why this one could work in a moment. here in new york, judge merchan is getting blunt with donald trump. continue violating the gag order and go to jail, he says. merchan ruled that nine of donald trump's social media posts stepped over the line, fining him $9,000. but also concedes that more

needs to be on the table to deter someone of donald trump's wealth. defendant is hereby warned that the court will not tolerate continued willful violations of its lawful orders and that if necessary and appropriate under the circumstances, it will impose incarceration. judge merchan will consider four more alleged violations thursday. first, there has been more testimony today. a banker is off the stand. now on the stand, another lesser known witness. first, it was the head of c-span's archives. now a man who produces court documents. eric trump is in the courtroom today. the first member of the trump family to make an appearance at this hush money trial. he is in the gallery just behind his father. vaughn hillyard joins me from outside the courthouse and

catherine christian and former u.s. attorney chuck rosenberg. vaughn, a third fact witness. tell me what you are hearing from the transcripter. >> reporter: three witnesses and it's not lunchtime. after david pecker took three days to himself, the district attorney's office is bringing in new witnesses. two of the names in the last hour we had to quickly search who they were. one was the archivist for c-span videos. he worked for c-span for 37 years. he is out of indiana. the d.a.'s office brought him in authenticate two campaign rally speeches from october of 2016, for donald trump, as well as a press conference from january of 2017, shortly before donald trump was sworn in, in which he praised michael cohen as a great lawyer. he brought the c-span archivist

was able to authenticate that they were real and accurate. now he there is the regional director of this transcript -- this deposition company that's authenticating the deposition video that donald trump took part in as part of the e. jean carroll trial. that video, the transcript was from october of 2022. this individual, who was thrown in by the district attorney's office from texas, is now authenticating that that transcript is accurate and unedited. for the district attorney's office, we should expect them to wrap with the witness in short order before they bring on their next witness. >> do we have an idea when we will get a more high profile witness, hope hicks or michael cohen? >> reporter: not athis time. we are waiting to see if the district attorney's office could allow the defense or the public at large, give them a heading up

about potential witnesses here. that's outstanding. we know that michael cohen was spotted at his attorney's office just this morning. there's no indication that he is going to be called soon here. it's just sort of a waiting for the prosecution to bring -- open up the doors and bring up the next witness to take the stand. >> donald trump was found to have violated his gag order, $9,000 in fines, a few more violations considered on thursday. the threat of incarceration. has there been any reaction from trump world to what judge merchan said and ruled today? >> reporter: we are waiting to hear from donald trump directly when he hits in from lunch break, when he addresses the hallway cameras. we are waiting to see if judge merchan would rule on those alleged violations. when donald trump walked in this morning, clearly, he was not anticipated it. then that's when judge merchan found he violated nine of the ten alleged social media posts to have violated his court

order. now, you read in judge merchan's order there suggesting that under state -- new york state orders, that he is not able -- is not within his discretion to increase the fine amount. that's why it was just $1,000 per violation. he said that it could lead him, if donald trump were to violate again, to consider possible jail as a consequence for him to ensure that he is at least tempted to not violate the gag order in attacking not only the witnesses but also by discussing openly and publically the jury in this trial. what's your reaction to this ruling and threat from the judge this morning? >> it was right -- we were waiting for it. it's about time. the judge gave himself wiggle room. everyone who looks at it, he was fined $1,000 apiece, $9,000, saying the next time he will be

incarcerated. that's not what the judge said. he said, if necessary and appropriate under the circumstances, incarceration might be necessary if there's more flagrant violations from donald trump. the judge gave himself some wiggle room in case donald trump once again posts something that attacks a witness or a juror. it's a very strong order. donald trump's lawyers, i'm sure, are taking it seriously. i don't know whether mr. trump is. but he should take it seriously. the judge has held it out that incarceration might happen if there's another and if it's a willful violation of the order. >> chuck, how do you incarcerate a former president who has a secret service detail? >> with difficulty. i mean, logistically, it's problematic. it's not impossible. my understanding is that court officials and corrections

officials have been discussing the possibility and planning for it. i think catherine makes an important point. the judge didn't commit himself to incarceration if there's another violation. the judge indeed left himself some wiggle room. judges don't order -- don't issue orders for the fun of it. they issue orders so that they will be abided, they will be followed. if mr. trump can conform his behavior, then the whole issue becomes moot and nobody is going to jail as a result of contempt. if necessary and appropriate, it's possible -- there are other ways do it. you can find, for instance, that mr. trump would be confined to his home. in theory, be incarcerated there. it's not something a judge wants to do. it's not something any judge wants to do. my hope is that mr. trump will conform his behavior, if past is

prologue, perhaps it wasn't. >> it's a political hot potato. a logistic hot potato as well. vaughn, i asked when we will get a more high profile witness. the court transcriber is off the stand. here we are a more high profile witness. >> reporter: keith davidson is a player in all of this. the questions of what he could publically testify to are going to be so prudent here for the district attorney's office in showing this jury here that this was a scheme that was concocted and understood by multiple individuals. keith davidson was the attorney, a high-profile attorney working for not only karen mcdougal in 2016 but also stormy daniels. he was the one who allegedly went to michael cohen as well as the editor and chief of the "national enquirer" in david pecker on behalf of karen

mcdougal and stormy daniels to arrange the payments. he worked with david pecker and the editor for the "national enquirer" to secure that $150,000 payment for karen mcdougal. in october of 2016, he was the one just two weeks before the 2016 election that worked on that $130,000 wire transfer for michael cohen to him on behalf of stormy daniels. he is the one who was so intrinsically aware of this alleged scheme to the point that he was the one negotiating the selling of the stories of karen mcdougal and stormy mcdaniels. in early october, he was the one who allegedly engaged with michael cohen and with the "national enquirer" that stormy daniels was interested in going public with her stormry. at that point in time, the

>> a law firm he owns is -- his employment, civil litigation, media cases, sexual abuse. between 2003 and 2017, he says at that time i was involved in media cases and non-disclosure agreements and the like.

describing what a non-disclosure agreement is. catherine, give me more insight from your legal background into what he will be really focused on here with keith davidson. >> what the prosecution are doing are putting all the pieces together. i wouldn't be surprised, though i have no inside knowledge, that miss daniels might follow her lawyer. you have the banker. this is all corroboration. corroborating michael cohen. you can believe michael cohen when he says that he took $130,000 line of credit and he created this llc and then he wired it to mr. davidson. why? because mr. pharaoh explained how and mr. davidson explained how. miss daniels explained how. it's very important to put all of these people to corroborate michael cohen. outline the conspiracy to promote donald trump's election by unlawful means which is what

the prosecution theory is for that additional crime that would elevate the falsifying business records to a felony. he is very important. he negotiated with michael cohen. >> vaughn, going from what catherine mentioned, has there been any sightings of stormy daniels today outside of the courthouse? >> reporter: no, not at this point in time. we have received no word about stormy daniels being seen. she's been public about her documentary that was released on peacock just about a month ago here ahead of this trial. outside of that, she has had social media posts, but we have not seen her publically outside of the social media posts promoting the documentary and talking about the documentary and talking about tangents of this case. but we have not seen her publicly. she has not conducted any other interviews that we're aware of in recent weeks either. >> she would be a high profile spotting. there are reporters out there looking for her. we will see if she comes in soon or maybe she went through a side

door nobody happened to be watching. chuck, let me ask you one more question about elevating this to the felony. catherine was mentioning about how keith davidson is integral to get this from a falsifying records case to a felony election interference violation. explain more on that. >> sure. under new york state law, merely keeping false books and records, writing false invoices, making false ledger entries, it's a misdemeanor. it has to be in search of some other crime to be a felony. here what the district attorney has alleged is that the false records were done in order to conceal or to help commit campaign finance violations and tax law violations. to do that, the prosecutors have to show that was the intent.

in other words, the goal wasn't just to make false entries in your ledger. it was to cover up some other crime. all of these witnesses, as they come on the stand, those who have spoken to cohen or perhaps better for the prosecutors, those who have spoken to trump, like cohen himself, can help explain to the jury what the goal actually was, not just to make false entries, not just to falsify the books and records, but to do something else, to conceal campaign violations, to commit election fraud. if the government can establish that, then those misdemeanors become felonies. >> a little bit more from the transcript that we're getting directly from the courthouse. this is a google document. it's being updated in real time. keith davidson acknowledges that between 2015 and 2017, he regularly worked on ndas, as we said a moment ago. he describes it as an agreement through which parties agree not to discuss certain subjects and

that on occasion, the subjects of those ndas were the subjects of tabloid media coverage. davidson says he got immunity through his grand jury testimony, but he did not seek it. davidson is now explaining that he knows a talent manager named gina rodriguez who manages reality tv stars and that he has known her over a decade. there's a lot more here. we will get back to it in a moment. we will be back in 60 seconds with the politics surrounding all of this and any updates from the court as we follow keith davidson's testimony. this is "andrea mitchell reports" only on msnbc. is "andl reports" only on msnbc it's never a good time for migraine, especially when i'm on camera. that's why my go-to is nurtec odt. for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment of episodic migraine in adults. it's the only migraine medication that helps treat & prevent, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec odt. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using.

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seeing that contrast. new polling from nbc news demonstrates where you get your news significantly impacts what you think of this election cycle. among voters who read newspapers and watch national network news, biden is winning. among those who don't consume either and don't follow politics, trump is the pick. joining me now monica alba and back with us is vaughn hillyard. part of the issue is which group has more people? are there more people watching tv news and consuming newspapers or more people who aren't paying attention? monica, i want to ask you about president biden and how he is out there campaigning and what the white house and what the campaign feels about the consumption out there and how they address it. >> reporter: it's so interesting when you do look at this data from our nbc news poll that you just put up there. when you look at the traditional consumption, people who still

read newspapers in print, people who watch the evening news shows, people who are watching cable programs like this one right now, they heavily lean towards president biden. then those people who just really say they don't follow political news at all, and that's not any kind of a traditional news consumption diet they have, they lean towards former president trump. you see that kind of campaign strategy playing out in real time for the biden campaign and the re-election effort. they know those voters, they have a sense of how to get to them through that traditional media strategy we have seen for decades and we have seen campaigns of both parties pursue. it's about getting to some of those voters that don't live in those more typical places. that is why you see them have a more online and digital strategy when it comes to that. the larger approach to this trial overall, for weeks has been not to say anything too specific about it. in the last couple of days or so, we really have seen the

president himself lean in more heavily. he was joking about his republican opponent at the white house correspondents dinner over the weekend, even talking about and referring to, quote, stormy weather, saying that he has been tied up in the last couple of weeks with something else, even action knowledging those reports of the former president falling asleep in court at times as sleepy don, a nickname that we know is sort of a play on what donald trump has for years called joe biden in terms of sleepy joe. trying to capitalize on some of that, using humor. that's the extent of what they're going to be talking about when it comes to this trial. they want to do counter programming and have the president be out doing these events, having these official white house events where he is talking about legislation, but also campaign events where he is calling out his rival here and talking about the specific things he is outlining for a

second term as was illuminated in the article today. expect the campaign to do a lot of that while creating content in a digital manner that is, they hope, reaching people that right now maybe aren't paying as close of attention to what is happening in this consequence shall trial. >> vaughn's shot froze on us. i'm going to ask you this question. the white house and the president, do they see the donald trump hush money trial is a benefit to them? do they like seeing -- not like. but do they think it's a good thing to have donald trump in a courtroom? or are they worried maybe it could backfire? >> reporter: they want to be incredibly careful about what they say about these legal matters of which we know there are many. this is one trial that's ongoing now where they don't want to have any appearance of any interference, which is, of course, what donald trump when he is talking to the courtroom cameras, he likes to imply, that

this is somehow being rigged without presenting any evidence. we know that that is not accurate. the white house doesn't see much political upside to engaging in that kind of a back and forth. you will continue to see them instead try to say, we do have the ability to campaign and send the president on the road while donald trump is tied up in this court proceeding. >> the court proceeding is proceeding. there's a few updates from inside the courthouse about davidson, confirming a relationship and knowledge of dillon howard. talked more about how he met michael cohen. a little color from inside the courtroom from our own reporter that trump is primarily -- doesn't appear to be aware. monica, thank you very much. a live report from columbia university, as tensions escalate between protesters, administrators and school is security after students occupy a college hall. updates from inside the courthouse. don't go anywhere.

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lots going on inside that courthouse. back with us is vaughn hillyard. we got his shot unfrozen. here on set, former prosecutor charles coleman. keith davidson is talking about how he knows michael cohen. he is talking about knowing stormy daniels. he is talking about karen mcdougal and non-disclosure agreements. explain the significance. >> reporter: keith davidson has not been a public figure. it's not like he has come out and done tv interviews or talked about his representation of stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. that's why for the prosecution, he could be key here as linking these pieces together. he was the one in 2016 who was negotiating the selling of karen mcdougal and stormy daniels' story.

he will be able to provide some veracity to the expected testimony of michael cohen and their exchanges and how ultimately the negotiations of their sales went down. right now, the prosecution for the jury is simply setting up, how did you become aware of karen mcdougal? he is saying he knew her for 25 years. he got connected to her via a friend of his. then started representing her in the summer of 2016. that is where the retainer was set up. he was beginning to personally advise and provide counsel for her. he was sort of the attorney/agent role there where alleged he was negotiating, helping them provide them counsel, take their stories of their alleged affairs and was the one who executed on the $150,000 transaction for karen mcdougal and the $130,000 for

stormy daniels. we expect here in the minutes and hours ahead for them to begin to get into minutia of what the transactions and negotiations look like. >> bring us back around and explain why this will help the prosecution show that donald trump committed a crime. it's not just seedy details about porn stars and non-disclosure agreements with this lawyer who represented media personalities and tabloids. how does this get to a crime? >> you have to tell a story. part of the story is getting to the point that you are explaining, number one, why these payments were made but number two, alluding to the crime that's making this from a misdemeanor to a felony. in order to do that, you have, for example, the framework which is laid by david pecker and you have witnesses that come in and add context to each part of the framework that david pecker laid out. now, with this witness, you have someone who is providing more context to the actual payments

that were made and how it was negotiated. that's setting up the testimony of michael cohen. it's setting up michael cohen's testimony to involve donald trump. to your point, at this point, we haven't necessarily heard a ton of testimony since david pecker that's linked donald trump to any of this. you need to set that up. michael con cohen is the linchpin do that. you made the point that this is not necessarily about seedy details. in some parts it is. you have to keep the jury engaged. this is a trial that's not necessarily the most exciting thing in the world. you don't want to lose your jury. on a certain level, some of the details, they do matter. >> we have on screen what our nbc reporters are seeing in court. trump occasionally looks around and closes his eyes again. it appears he is going in and out of sleep. according to the reporters who are inside the room watching. i'm not clear if the jury is seeing him do this. we are waiting on a confirmation of whether the jurors are paying

attention to donald trump or paying attention to the witness stand. when the defense co comes back around and questions keith davidson, what do they ask? >> they start with his history. he has a history of exploitation of these seedy stories and getting this trouble in terms of trying to exploit money from witnesses. he had a situation with hulk hogan where he tried to extort him for $300,000 over a sex tape. you discredit him around that. the next thing you will do after you have discredited him is make the point, you were never in contact with donald trump, were you? donald trump never actually reached out to you, he never negotiated anything with you. you put donald trump as far away from any interaction around this as possible, because if you are the defense, these were people who acted on behalf of donald trump. they acted to protect donald trump. they didn't act necessarily at donald trump's direction in the

sense of, he instructed these people to do these things. those are the two things you do if you are his defense attorneys as far as how you deal with keith davidson. >> don't go anywhere. we will come back to you. we want to get to the pro-palestinian protesters at columbia who broke into a couple puss building overnight. they smashed windows and barricaded doors. they will not leave hamilton hall until their demands are met. at ucla, police in tactical gear intervenes as protesters clashed with pro-israel demonstrators a. the university of texas, austin, troopers in riot gear detained some students. others surrounded the police who say they used pepper spray to get them to disperse. joining me from columbia in new york city is antonia hylton. they are in hamilton hall. it has a history of being occupied goes back 100 years. what are they demanding?

what is columbia university saying? >> reporter: well, the dozens of students who are inside this building behind me here are demanding that the university divest from israel and that they essentially come back to the table and meet some of the students' demands. we heard yesterday from the school administration that that conversation had fallen apart, that they were at an impasse. the school had given them this 2:00 p.m. deadline. the team was here past that seeing encampment and protests were active. you could get this feeling at 8:00 p.m. came along that there was this feeling that something was about to escalate. whether that was the nypd was going to enter campus overnight after press no longer had access, or students and faculty wondering if the protesters were going to change strategy in some way. now it's clear what the answer was. they are in this building. they say they are going to stay barricaded with these metal gates, with furniture and zip

ties they used last night to lock themselves in there essentially. they are going to stay there until the university meets them on their demands. we have not heard much today from the university except for the fact that safety to them is paramount. they locked down the campus. faculty and students who normally have access to these spaces, they can't get in there. that's the state of play here at columbia. >> antonia, when you are watching this unfold, we also saw yesterday that after some time, the university followed through with the suspension of students who stayed on the lawn. what do we know about that this morning? >> reporter: we know that there are students who face suspensions. we don't have the exact numbers or names. which is typical. columbia doesn't disclose much about their disciplinary procedures. we know there were students that our team witnessed this morning trying to swipe into campus who said they have access but couldn't get in. >> interesting. thank you very much.

joining me now, anthony dehe is poe disease toe. congressman, thank you very much for being here. i know you have strong feelings about what you are witnessing. >> yeah. thanks for having me. i think what we have seen here now is what some have said have been peaceful protests have been hijacked by those aggressive spewing anti-semitic and anti-israel and at some fronts anti-american rhetoric. >> what about the right of students to protest, to call out injustice as they see it and to say, frankly, with free speech, even offensive things? >> i have said all along that these students are protected by our constitution. it's one of the beautiful things about being a citizen of the united states of america and living here. when you are causing others harm, when you are putting others in fear, when you are taking away students' ability to

learn and be educated, that their parent or guardians or whoever is paying for their education is paying well over $90,000 for and now we have students who can't come on campus, we have those who are told, we can't keep you safe, you have to learn from home, i think what we are seeing is, again, it's these aggressive individuals that are -- that have taken over the right to protest. this is no longer peaceful protests. these are people that are aggressive, spewing hate and that want to see these educational institutions continue to be these petri dishes for hate. columbia university shouldn't be suspending anyone. they should be expelling those who violate protocols and policies of the school. i think that the leadership or i should say the lack of leadership that we have seen from columbia needs to grow a backbone, grow a spine and do the job that they are supposed to do. when you can't keep students

safe, there's a problem. when you are trying to rationalize with issue rational people, you are negotiating with people who are praising terrorist organizations. something needs to stop here. they need to show leadership. they need do it quickly. >> are you worried about confrontations with the police or national guard? >> i think we should always be worried about violent confrontations with the police and national guard. the video that you just saw before we started this segment, i guess that was overnight of breaking windows and using zip ties and holding members of staff against their will in hallways. these are violent protesters who no longer are being peaceful. they are being aggressive. they are making and leaving people in fear. >> there are a number of protests around the country. there's obviously what we are witnessing at columbia university and the protest demands run the gamut. what about those saying they want a cease-fire, they want an

end to the israeli bombing in gaza, they want an end to the bloodshed. >> hamas needs to surrender. every one of those hostages should be released. that's the starting point. >> what about the offer that's on the table? >> what we need is we need hamas to sur rend are and all hostages to be released. that's what we should focus on. individuals going around to educational institutions around this country are claiming that they want peace, that they are doing it for humane tear yan reasons. they must have missed the attacks where hamas came into israel and butcher and murdered and raped and pillaged. >> let me ask you about something closer to home. speaker mike johnson, marjorie taylor greene is making nose about her motion to vacate. if that comes up, what do you believe will happen? >> i think that speaker johnson is doing a great job leading not

only our con trens but leading the kous of representatives. it's a tough job. i would argue probably the most difficult job in the country right now. he is doing it with great. he is doing it with courage. we saw last saturday where he brought people from different sides of the aisle, from all across this great nation, to come together to support our allies, to do the work that the american people are hoping for us to do. i think he will continue in that. >> will you still support him if democrats vote to keep him in the speakership? >> i will support mike johnson for as long as he wants to be speaker of the house. >> thank you very much for joining us. we appreciate it. >> thanks for having me. coming up next, we will head back to lower manhattan for an update on today's court proceedings. more from keith davidson talking about the details of his interactions with stormy daniels, karen mcdougal and michael cohen. don't go anywhere. mcdougal and michael cohen. don't go anywhere. l day long but with prilosec otc just one pill a day

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let's go back to the courtroom. back with me is vaughn hillyard. bring us up to speed. >> reporter: we are getting into the details of that summer of 2016 where dillon howard was exchanging text messages with the gentleman davidson who is currently up on the stand here. davidson, who is working as the role of attorney/agent for karen

mcdougal and stormy daniels, he was essentially working as the middle man for them with the national enquirer over potentially selling their stories to the "national enquirer" to be published. currently, there was a text message on june 7, 2016, in which davidson texted the editor and chief of the "national enquirer," i have a blockbuster trump story. they met two weeks later. they asking him about that meeting. that's why davidson says that he told them that karen mcdougal alleged to have had a longtime affair with donald trump while he was married to melania trump. and that she was interested in selling the rights to her story. that's where the d.a.'s office left off questioning here right now. they expect this to play out throughout the afternoon following the lunch break. >> catherine, give us the point of this. >> the point is that we know that miss mcdougal, we know from mr. pecker, was paid $150,000 to

squash her story. it was called a catch and kill. she thought it was going to be published. they paid it to keep her quiet and not go to anyone else. this is more corroboration for what michael cohen and mr. pecker has testified to. the campaign to keep negative information about the campaign from the public to unduly influence the election. >> they are looking, the jurors, at a screen showing these text messages between keith davidson and david howard. one of them is davidson's first text to howard about mcdougal. he says, i have a blockbuster trump story which referred to karen mcdougal's story. howard said, talk first thing. i will get you more than anyone for it. you know why. you know why. why would he say, you know why? >> hard to say without his

context. i would imagine, it may have to do with what he believe ez could have secured financially for the story. >> here's is more from the court, from our reporters. both of the above text mention sajs are dated 6/7 sln 16. davidson says he understood at that time that ami had implicitly endorsed donald trump and that pecker and trump had both a friendship and a former business relationship. >> yeah. understanding number one the timing of it. you are talking about the summer of 2016 right before the -- as things are progressing in terms of the election. also, the fact that it's donald trump and he is a presidential candidate at this time, you are able to get a considerable amount of money for this. this is a valuable story. especially when you are labeling it as a blockbuster. >> fur listening to this, does it turn you off, this idea that

these men are conspireing or talking -- conspireing is a loaded word. talking about the story and getting a ton of money for it, could a jury start to feel sympathy for donald trump? >> i don't think so. your point is a good one. jurors can be disgusted by what they see in many cases. but here, none of this is the prosecutor's fault. they weren't in these meetings, trying to catch and kill stories, they weren't trying to keep bad information out of the press. this was done by mr. trump and the people around him. prosecutors have to show the jury what happened. that is their absolute obligation. here they are also showing the jury why it happened. it's hard for me to imagine that a jury is going to fault the prosecutors. this is the story. this is the trial, the facts, the evidence that the prosecutors are producing. they didn't cause any of this to

happen. >> a little more from inside the courtroom. this from laura jarrett. keith davidson's disposition on the witness stand is notable, she says. his speech is monotone without a lot of elaboration. avoiding colorful language. for instance, he called the alleged dealings between mcdougal and trump a personal interaction. he is looking at his text messages and asked to explain the context around events he described as bombshell. his voice pattern never changes even when the subject is eyebrow raising. what do you read into that, catherine? >> it means, he doesn't want to be there. he is a witness for the prosecution because they called him. he is not really. he is there under subpoena. he has immunity because in new york state, when witnesses testify in the grand jury, they automatically get what's called

transactional immunity. whatever they testify to, they can't be prosecuted for. he also, i believe, asserted attorney/client privilege when asked about conversations between him and miss mcdougal. which means she did not waive her privilege with him. he is just there and just going to answer the questions but not going to give anything more to the prosecutors. we will see what he will do on cross examination. >> here is an interesting piece. on july 27, 2016, davidson wrote to howard, don't forget about cohen, time is of the essence, the girl is being corned by the estrogen mafia. this is what davidson wrote. mcdougal was about to enter into a deal with abc as for the he is to electroagain mafia, he said it was a regrettable phrase but that he was referring to women who were leaning on karen to sign with abc. what about language like that when a jury hears it?

>> it doesn't help. it's not something positive. i don't necessarily know it's going to sway a jury one way or the other. it may resonate -- >> distaste of all of these people involved? >> someone's mind. you are also counterbalancing that with his demeanor with what our colleague was talking about. with him being so monotone, things like that may not necessarily jump off the page the way they should. i'm curious as to what will his demeanor be when he is on cross-examination for the defense? will he come alive? will he be more engaging and more responsive to their questions given the fact that as catherine said, it's obvious that he does not want to be there. >> we were talking about how donald trump wasn't as engaged as in other moments. he seems to beslumping in the chair, nodding off. i mentioned one of the questions was, is the jury looking at donald trump? are they seeing this? laura jarrett notes the jury has been rapt with attention at the

text messages on the screen, everything being shown to them. they haven't looked over at donald trump. if they were to see him nodding off or appearing to nod off, what does that do? >> normally, i would say this is not a good sign, not something you want to do if you are a defendant at your own criminal trial. you don't want the jury to see you in that way. i think that that's majorly true for donald trump. i think the one exception is that there may be a juror who watches donald trump's demeanor and says, if it's not that big of a deal to him, he really must not be that concerned, because he may not have done anything wrong. if you are donald trump's defense team, you are looking for one. you are looking for one juror who will be your holdout. that may be the person who says, his demeanor doesn't affect me because it's not a big deal. i don't think he did it. >> stick around. we will take a quick break. we will talk a little about some foreign news. we will come back to the court. secretary of state antony blinken travels the middle east working towards a peace deal in

gaza. andrea mitchell is with him. she just filed a new report. more from her when we come back. . more from her when we come back.

secretary of state antony blinken is en route to tel aviv right now, still working on a hostage release and cease-fire deal for gaza. today he met with jordan's king abdullah ii in amman as benjamin netanyahu reiterated that israel, quote, has no other choice now but to go into rafah. as we mentioned, andrea is traveling with the secretary and she just filed this report. >> reporter: while the whole world is watching whether a hostage deal can be accomplished this week, while secretary blinken is here to set up final negotiations, he's also working really hard on what he's done since the first and second and third of these shuttles, now

seven shuttle diplomacy trips to the middle east, to try to get aid to the starving people of gaza. this is a critical moment. what he called a critical time in briefing aid workers today, these pallets of aid, this is food, it is basically sugar, it is nuts, it is oil, it is all kinds of dried goods. one of these pallets can take care of one family of five people for about two weeks. the important thing is that today they're setting up for tomorrow, which will be the first time that all of this aid from jordanian relief organizations, supported by the united states, by charities here in jordan, are going to go directly across israel and directly into north gaza through the herez crossing. this is something president biden pressed prime minister netanyahu to do on april 4th, in a tough phone call, and it is finally happening today. so, this is a bit of a victory

lap and a very tough journey for tony blinken, the secretary of state, in seeing all of this lined up, he's going to watch it being loaded on to trucks and tomorrow he'll start a week long journey to herez to get into israel, north gaza, which means it desperately, rather than in the south. the critical question now is how does it get inside gaza to the people who desperately need it. that is relying on unrwa, the u.n. agencies at the u.s. and israel. the u.s. has been forced to cut off money to israel, very critical of, but that's another challenge. >> andrea mitchell filing that report for us as she travels with secretary of state antony blinken. black to the new york city courtroom, the hush money trial where we have been watching a number of fact witnesses today. now we're on to keith davidson, the lawyer for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, talking about the agreements he was negotiating for them, with the "national enquirer" and ultimately with michael cohen.

catherine, when we get to the negotiations with michael cohen, what does the prosecution want to get out of keith davidson? >> again, more corroboration, how active michael cohen and why he was doing this on behalf of donald trump. now, stepping back, we haven't heard from mr. farro or from this lawyer that donald trump was involved. to their personal knowledge. to their personal knowledge, they were dealing with michael cohen. it is very important this witness to corroborate this catch and kill with karen mcdougal. it is connected. the doorman, miss mcdougal, the playboy model is connected to that $130,000 payment to stormy daniels. it is all connected to influence the campaign and keep this negative information away from the electorate.

they call it inextricably inwoven, that's the legal term, why we're getting all this legal evidence in. >> we are going to lay it on thick for her, davidson says good, throw in an ambassadorship for me. i'm thinking isle of man. just the content of the text messages, chuck, what does that do for the prosecution? what does it potentially do for the defense? >> yeah, this is just context, it is banter, some of it is unimportant. but if you're telling the story, you ought to tell the entire story, and by the way, this is not unusual. in any criminal trial, some witnesses are relatively minor, they have limited interaction, they don't know the defendant. they never met him.

never spoken to him. and some have, like michael cohen much more interaction, much more knowledge, can testify a motive. they were there for the key conversations. so, what you're seeing is an array of witnesses who did different things with different people at different times and have different stories to tell. right now i don't think this banter is all that important. it doesn't matter that much for the prosecutor or the defense. but it is part of the context in telling the story, the whole story, the complete story, to the jury. >> so, davidson's been on the stand for longer than the other fact witnesses that were on today, gary farro on and off pretty quickly, even though he was testifying on, i believe, on friday. and then there were a couple archiists and a court transcriber who was on, he was on, cross examination hasn't started yet. if you're the prosecution and timing this out, at what point do you bring in michael cohen? at what point do you bring in

stormy daniels? >> i hate to say it, when you're ready. >> what does that mean? >> it means you can't do it prematurely. you have to think about obviously when you may be most apt to engage the jury, but at the same time, it can't be out of order chronologically unless it makes sense to the jury. keith davidson is super important to putting michael cohen's testimony in context. that's really what they want to do. >> are they deciding on the fly when they're going to bring people in or -- it already has been laid out? they have a plan, very haven't revealed it, we don't know the full extent of the witness list either. >> correct. they know when they intend to -- you may make a switch in a smaller witnesses, but in terms of a smaller witness, but in terms of the order of a cohen or a mcdougal or hope hicks or stormy daniels, you know exactly when during your case in chief you intend to call any of those witnesses and you're not making any changes, barring some sort of blockbuster testimony that you didn't anticipate coming out on the stand and that rarely, if

ever, happens. >> he's being asked right now about negotiations directly with michael cohen. this is going to take it from the ami deal to direct negotiations with michael cohen, where michael cohen made the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels under a code name that they used, stormy daniels and keith davidson. and that eventually they're going to ultimately try to get that donald trump paid michael cohen back and knew what he was doing. donald trump is walking out right now. the court is in a short recess. eric trump is there for the first time. we have been talking about how the family wasn't there. i have ten seconds left, but tell me what does it mean to have eric there? >> i think it is important for the people who are really paying attention. he did not have any of his family members there before and so the fact that now someone has finally showed up on his behalf is probably a good thing, but the question is are you going to stay and are you going to continue to be there? >> you say finally, only been a week. thank you very much. chuck rosenberg, catherine christian, love the polka