some of the legislation or some or their agenda ahead. we'll see what the americans say. it is a presidential year, and a lot of big things or -- you know, two, big, major people on the ticket. >> seems the consensus is emerging, republicans take the senate but lose the house. you're right, the top of the ticket, biden versus trump, may dictate what happens in the building behind you. kadia goba, thank you for joining us this morning. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this tuesday morning. a jam-packed "morning joe" starts right now. if you like puppies, you're not going to like kristi noem. because in her new book, she admitted to killing her dog. now, i know that sounds terrible. [ crowd booing ] look, i know it sounds terrible, but it is much worse. cricket ruined the hunt, going out of her mind with excitement, chasing all those birds and having the time of her life.

but who among us hasn't seen a dog running through the fields, not a care in the world and thought, you deserve to die? >> when you're trying to win over voters, i'm not sure being the bad guy in a john wick movie is the best way to go. >> this is a crazy person. i'm afraid of what she might do when she finds out how many chickens her favorite president has killed. >> all right. the kristi noem story providing the late night shows with plenty of material. even conservative media has turned on the republican governor of south dakota, now dismissing her as a serious contender for donald trump's running mate. we're going to play that reaction for you. there was a lot of it. people just don't get it. i don't think anyone really understands how you kill a puppy. anywho, also this morning, former president trump will be back in court today for his criminal hush money trial.

we'll have a preview on what to expect for that. also new this morning, fox news facing another threat of litigation, almost a year after the network agreed to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to dominion voting systems. >> this challenge coming from hunter biden. >> yeah, he is, i guess, considering a lawsuit. they made an announcement about it yesterday. we'll tell you the very latest about that. >> the oan had to settle, willie, with michael cohen, for lying about him. it is almost as if people like rudy giuliani and that info wars guy and all these other people are learning that, well, defamation laws still have biden america. you can't just make up stuff about other people and run it on your network. >> there is a cost to it. oan had to retract a story about michael cohen. we know almost a billion dollars, the settlement that

came down against fox news, perhaps left a mark, and they'll now be dealing with another lawsuit from hunter biden. who knows what the number will be there. yeah, there are consequences to spewing false information out into the atmosphere, and it is good to see some people starting to hold news organizations that just make stuff up in the interest of politics to defame people are being held accountable. >> well, make stuff up and refuse to retract it when it was brought to their attention they were wrong. >> that's the problem. >> we'll see what happens in hunter biden's case. we've seen time and time again, rudy giuliani still going around, i think, lying about, you know, conspiracy theories and everything else. it just goes on and on. it's pretty crazy. you look at, again, all of the false information, and, again, like we've said, it is almost as if gravity has returned. speaking of gravity returning, gravity returning, i

hear, willie, to madison square garden. >> where is he going with this? >> where i'm going is, you have the knicks. you've got the rangers. you've got, you know, it'd been floating in the stratosphere of irrelevance since about 1971. looks like things are about to get crazy there. >> joe, that was unfair. it was 1973 that we last won a title. >> he almost called you his son. >> i call you my son because i was about to tell you that george geist and i were at the last game, game two at the garden, when donte hit the three. the place was physically shaking, madison square garden. it was unlike any experience i've had at any game anywhere. knicks up 3-1. richard haass and i were just talking, need to close it out tonight. don't leave the door open. the sixers go back home. they win game six. then it is a high-stakes game seven. hoping the knicks can close it out tonight. i fully expect the garden to be

at its very best. all right. along with joe, willie, and me, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. president emeritus on the council of foreign relations, richard haass. author of "home and away," available on substack. and pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post," eugene robertson is with us this morning. we begin this morning with the growing unrest at columbia university. overnight, people protesting israel's war with hamas occupied a building, the same one students took over in the 1960s. the building is just a few hundred feet away from the gaza encampment site. now, the university is urging people to avoid coming to campus today if they can. the protests escalated just hours after the university began suspending students who refused

to leave the encampment. the tents have been up for nearly two weeks, and the university wants to clear it before graduation on may 15th. the protesters held a press conference yesterday afternoon, saying the university has not made significant concessions to their main demand. the group wants columbia to divest from companies with links to israel. the students also claim columbia has stopped negotiations. as a result, they say they will, quote, not be moved unless by force. meanwhile, protests escalating in other college campuses, as well. the university of texas, protesters clashing with police there, resulting in dozens of arrest. video shows officers in riot gear dragging, carrying out demonstrators. the university says at least 40 people were taken into custody yesterday for trespassing and disorderly conduct. many of them were not affiliated with the school. a phenomenon we're seeing at many of the campuses.

the university of utah, police were called to disperse protesters. 17 people were arrested last night. one officer was injured. a hatchet was confiscated there. the number of arrests at campuses across the nation approaching 1,000. let's bring in the ceo of the anti-defamation league, jonathan greenblatt eugene robertson also writing about this, visited the campus of george washington university yesterday. gene, first, i want the impression of what you saw. gw a flashpoint in the college campus protests the last few weeks. what'd you see in your reporting yesterday? >> well, i got there at a pretty quiet moment. the night before had been a very loud moment, on sunday night. the protesters had essentially -- there was a small encampment on the university yard that authorities had

surrounded with barricades. they actually had asked the d.c. police to clear that small encampment on friday night, and the d.c. metropolitan police said, "no, we don't think that is a great idea." so they didn't do it. it was still there. on sunday night, the students had torn down the barricades, rushed in, and put up a whole bunch more tents. it was a larger encampment but very quiet when i was there, actually, in the morning. some of the protesters were asleep. some were sitting outside of their tents, apparently cramming for finals. when i was there, there wasn't any chanting. there wasn't any shouting. there haven't been the kinds of conflictive sort of encounters at george washington that we've

seen at some of the other universities, and so the administration is trying to figure out what to do. you know, it's a stalemate, as it is on -- i think the protests are at more than 50 campuses around the country right now. >> you know, gene, i think it may be the only time in your life you struck an exonian pose. >> what? >> remember the story of nixon wanting to understand the anti-war protesters? he got there so early in the morning wearing his dress shoes, that they were still asleep at the lincoln memorial. nixon tried to talk to them about usc football. didn't connect with the kids that way. >> yeah, yeah. >> what do you think? i'm curious what your thoughts are. i had a lot of nice, wonderful, well-intentioned people that watch this show, love this show,

write me yesterday, and i wrote a lot of themback, called one or two back, and said, "you know, joe, vietnam was a bad thing. the gaza thing, we understand what the kids are doing." i understand the protest to an unjust war, and we've been critic of netanyahu's response in gaza. we know all that. i'm curious what your thoughts are on -- and we'll talk to jonathan greenblatt in one moment -- but how you balance that with not just outside agitators but also a rising sense of anti-semitism on college campuses and social life. i will tell you, i know, i know firsthand from friends and family members that jews are being pushed to the side socially.

that woke white girls and boys coming from elite families are telling their friends that they can't hang out with jewish friends. i could go on. i've been -- and maybe one of the reasons i was engaged as i was yesterday is i've been hearing about this now for three, four, five, six months. jewish students don't fear safe on college campuses. this isn't a bubble wrap or snowflake moment. this is people talking about genocide, screaming at them as they try to go to english class on campus. what do we do, gene? >> look, the anti-semitism is intolerance. it is awful. it is going to wreck, to destroy the movement and prevent any sort of chance of them achieving any of their aims. i'll get to the aims in a

minute, but it's crazy. it has to stop. again, when i happened to be there, i didn't witness it. there hasn't been that much at george washington of that sort of thing, but, then again, not every protest is alike. i know, i've seen some of the video and some of the scenes, some of the audio from columbia and from some of these other protesters, and it's horrible. it is atrocious. you know, anti-semitism, if anti-semitism is going to be a central element of this movement, then it deserves to fail and it will fail. but what i saw and what i think we're seeing in polls that have been taken, this and that, is something of a generational shift in overall sort of attitudes and impressions of the

palestinian-israeli conflict. we've seen polls showing that younger adults, 30 and under, are much more sympathetic to the palestinians than older groups. perhaps they are less aware of history. they seem to be very confused about how and why the state of israel was founded, this and that. but this is real. i mean, this is being shown in poll after poll. >> yeah, it is real. >> these kids grow up. i think it is something that we ought to pay attention to in sort of the macro lens. >> you know, willie, the thing is, and i'm certainly not saying this of all the student protesters that are out there, and certainly not children of palestinian families who have

lost loved ones through the years in this war, in this conflict. i will say, though, among, again -- and i've spoken with some of them. i want to be careful -- but among these white, woke, pampered, elitist -- i'm not supposed to use that word -- let's say children from wealthy families that decide, as dr. brzezinski said so many years ago, that they're going to play radical for a weekend and then go home to mommy and daddy's mansion, there's a complete ignorance about the complexities of this issue. now, of course, if you listen to the show, you would understand many of the complexities of this issue because we have been really tough on israeli officials that come on this show. we have asked why they've continued to allow illegal settlements in the west bank over the decade, why they have continued to fight against a

two-state solution for peace, why they have done what they have done in gaza, why they did with hamas, why netanyahu was hamas' ally leading up to october the 7th. it is very complicated. that's lost, though, in a lot of those things. when you start talking about even west bank settlements with a lot of these students, their eyes glaze over. because that's not in the tiktok video. again, i'm not saying this about all the students, but i will tell you, i'm saying it about a hell of a lot of students i have spoken with. when you go, "you know, in 2000, there was an oslo accord where bill clinton had gotten together, and they were giving 97% of the west bank to the palestinians. the other 3% they were going to make up with israeli land. they figured out, you know, a capital in east jerusalem." they sit there with their eyes glazed because they have no idea what happened in this peace process, what happened through the years.

they just see something on tiktok, and they're like, israel bad, hamas good. they go out and start shouting at jews. >> yeah, and you don't even have to go that deep. ask, "what does it mean to chant, from the river to the sea," and they don't know. we've seen this. reporters asking some of them -- again, not all, some have a deep understanding of this -- they don't understand that means the elimination of the state of israel and the people who live within that state. i've been having a lot of these same conversations as you, joe. if you watch our show, you know how critical we've been of netanyahu, the prosecution of the war, that we grieve and mourn for children and women who have been killed in this war, that are starving in this war. it is a terrible, terrible thing. but that does not give kids on college campuses license to chant "from the river to the sea" and to say that jewish kids should not exist in some cases. at columbia, for example. jonathan, from your point of

view at the adl, what are you hearing? i mean, you've brought us a great look at the jewish experience since october 7th. but right now, in the midst of these protests, what is it like to be a jewish student on the campus of, not just columbia, the university of texas, a whole bunch of schools? >> it is the right question, willie. i was at ucla on sunday. i was at usc on friday. talking to jewish students, columbia last week. let me tell you, i don't know exactly what eugene saw at gw in terms of the tents, but i've talked to students from all these universities. they don't feel afraid. they are, are good reason, right? i mean, as mentioned in the opening here, you had someone with a hatchet at the university of utah. you had students with hammers who broke into the building at columbia last night. you had someone with a sword at ucla on sunday. this isn't normal. people showing up fully concealing their faces like

they're isis fighters, that isn't normal. i heard from kids again and again and again, they are leaving campus. they're moving out of their dorms because they are worried. at columbia, of course, president shafik, she had to close classes. i don't know if people realize this. classes are over at columbia. they all went remote because the administration was so afraid of these people. i see these videos. i see these images of mass protesters breaking into buildings, barricading them with furniture, and, look, i'm reminded of january 6th. that's what this looks like to me. we talk at adl about right-wing extremists, masked proud boys showing up at board meetings, oath keepers wearing masks. i look at this, and this is what i see. let's be clear, the students doing this, the groups behind it, sjp, palestinian youth movement, their response to president shafik's offer was,

"columbia will burn." we shouldn't treat these people like children when they're hardened activists. >> go ahead. >> this is also, mika, about these authorities and the lack of them. why are these school administrators, why are they abdicating their responsibility to this degree? this affects students. it affects outsiders. it affects teachers with tenure. tenure is supposed to give you intellectual protection so you can say things in classrooms. it doesn't give you the ability to break the law with immunity. i just don't understand. >> yeah. >> you see also the difference on the campuses, between what's happening on some, chicago and florida, opposed to what's happening at columbia and others. there is an enormous gap in the principle and backbone we're seeing here. >> right. richard, to your point, i think that's where we've all -- that's the place we've all been sitting in, watching this, going, what

the hell is going on? what are these universities doing? why aren't they doing something? i'll echo the horror that this does look like january 6th. what a terrible example for our students. at the same time, these are young adults. the question is, why do you choose to learn about the complexities of other situations around the world but this one, you want to set up an encampment? this one, you want to scare people? this one, you want to come to the edge of violence or even go to violence. >> not the edge. they're breaking into buildings. >> you risk your future and your education for this one. see, i think these college students obviously are missing the part where they need to see what's going on across the country with these protests, that it is now in the realm of violence. it is in the realm of hatred, whether some are peaceful or not. they need to watch the news and look at all the different arguments and be adults or start learning to be adults and set up

discussions and debates across college campuses, or their colleges and universities are going to have no choice but to expel them and ruin their future. the impact they want to have on the community, society, and the world at some point. but let's then go to the hard part of this. what is the solution for college/university presidents and deans who want to maintain control but also preserve free speech? what are solutions? let's talk about solutions. >> it's very simple. first of all, you enforce the rules of your college campuses. there is a concept -- >> at this point, that would be hard to do. >> no, actually, it wouldn't. >> i'm just saying, you go out and start arresting people. >> yeah, you follow the law or don't follow the law. >> okay. >> there is a concept -- >> i don't think it is that simple. >> -- in the first amendment. no, if you -- i will say, i

understand over the last 24 hours, with the columbia administration, they've been trying to bring this to a peaceful resolution. what happened? people got hammers and broke into buildings. at that point -- >> that's a crime. >> at that point, that's a crime. they should all be arrested. they shouldn't be suspended but expelled from school. >> hear, hear. >> this is virtue signaling of the worst order for, again, white, woke kids that have no idea what they're talking about here, no idea other than that they've seen on tiktok. again, there's a huge gulf in my mind between children of palestinian families who have been a part of this tragedy and the suffering over the decades. so i am not one to be able to sit in judgment of them. but i can sit in judgment of school administrators. what do you do? what do you do in a situation like this?

you stop the law breaking. you make your campus safe for everyone, for everyone. for everyone. you don't allow these protesters to take the campus over themselves and say, "this is our viewpoint. we are going to scream. we are going to set up encampments. we are going to dominate this debate so you only hear our side. the louder we scream, the more self-righteous we feel." >> that's what they're doing. >> the idea of colleges, willie, the last time i checked, for at least when there still were liberal, you know, sort of the liberal tradition of learning at places like columbia, you actually have discussions. you actually pursue the truth. not your truth. not the truth you're feeling. you try to pursue the truth, what the truth is. if you can't get to the truth in a place like israel, then what

you do is you talk through it. you try to work towards peace. you try to work towards a two-state solution. people say -- and i've heard this from students on college campuses -- "oh, you can't bring up a two-state solution because they say it's a zionist conspiracy." peace for the palestinians is a zionist conspiracy? go ahead, take these pictures down. i want to talk to willie. willie, who is learning by these images that we saw? who is learning more about the middle east? who is learning about the illegal settlements on the west bank set up by netanyahu? who talked through a discussion with, let's say jewish students, to say, you understand your government has been illegally setting up settlements in the west bank, making a two-state solution next to impossible,

while cynically aligning with hamas. you want to undermine the people who don't want to wipe israel off the map because they're the biggest threat to a two-state solution. and if you got both sides talking together, you would find out that hamas and netanyahu both are enemies of the two-state solution. so maybe that's why they were working together to divide people in israel, to divide people in gaza, to divide people in the west bank, and to divide people on college campuses. then you ask the question, okay, so we understand, there are people who are enemies of peace here. what do we do to outthink them? what do we do to outmaneuver them? how do we move toward peace? because that's what this should all be about, not virtue

signaling, screaming, or breaking into buildings. but for that to happen, people that run universities can't allow anarchists to take over buildings, to use hammers to break into buildings. people say, oh, you can't -- yeah, you can enforce the law. you can enforce the law. then you can start classes again, and then you can begin teaching students, like, having discussions with students. talking about the horrific, horrific complexities that have surrounded this argument, this debate, since 1948. then maybe you learn something. we kind of think that's what colleges are about. not getting hammers and breaking into and occupying buildings at columbia university. >> joe, your analysis is sophisticated, thoughtful, and more than an inch deep, so it's

just not going to work, i'm afraid. >> that's my point. >> but i will say, for all these images we've seen and been discussing, those conversations are happening. i will speak for my own school at vanderbilt. you guys talked a lot about dartmouth, where they're having these discussions. they're bringing in an israeli ambassador and somebody the head of the palestinian authority, and they're explaining their sides. they're having a civil debate. no one has a hammer. no one is yelling. >> it's great. >> they're giving people places on campuses to protest. then, in the case of vanderbilt anyway, when they stormed into a building and broke a window, pushed a security guard aside, and sat there for a day, the students were suspended. they looked individually at all their cases and expelled a handful of them. we've given you all these outlets, jonathan. we give you places to have these conversations, which is what college is supposed to be. you don't have to pick a side. listen to the debate. >> totally. >> but, i mean, do you think any of the people in the building at

columbia right now actually want to have that conversation? >> look, president shafik needs to deliver consequences, not make concessions. chancellor diermeyer at vandy is showing a model. president shill at northwestern gave into the protesters, inexplicably, giving them concessions after doing the same thing. we need to keep in mind, these demonstrators are ruining it for everybody. >> that's correct. >> they're holding hostage kids' graduation, commencements, just the final exams period. it is not just a jewish problem, it is everyone's problem. >> jonathan, jonathan, these kids that are going to miss their college graduation because of these people, these people that are occupying buildings and making the campus unsafe, were the same ones that missed their high school graduations because

of covid. >> yup. >> again, the selfishness, i just -- it's extraordinary that they have to shut down campuses when, in fact, there are ways for them to get their message across. >> of course there are. keep in mind the numbers. the numbers, columbia has 30,000 students. you know how many are in this encampment, joe? like 200. we're talking about 7/10th of 1%. same with northwestern and all these schools. this is a fringe between literally, like, 6/10th and 1% of all of the students. i would say one other point that's really important, you know, not all jews look like me. there are plenty of jews from the middle east. at usc on friday, i heard from iranian-jewish student whose parents fled the islamic revolution, who has basically been told, you can't be part of

the middle eastern jewish group. he grew up in his home with the first language. to these kids, because he is jewish, he's not part of the crowd. that is racism, plain and simple. look, much like you were talking about, about hamas earlier, and i'm sure richard will talk about it in a bit, israel keeps offering them concessions, making offers on hostages, and they refuse. these demonstrators, these activists, they get offered concessions by the universities, and look what's happening at columbia right there. they simply refuse to accept it because it seems like their goal isn't to come to some conclusion, it's about what's better for the palestinians, just to reject israel, reject their jewish pierce. again, it is racism, and it is wrong. >> jonathan lemire, there was a columbia student quoted. that was ucla, i believe.

there was a student quoted in "the new york times" yesterday who said, "i support a cease-fire. i really wanted to go in and wanted to -- i wanted to be with the people that were protesting for a cease-fire. basically, it wasn't about a cease-fire. it was about the end of israel. because i support israel, they told me -- the existence of israel, not what israel is doing, the existence of israel. because i supported the existence of israel as a jew, but because as a jew i also supported peace and a cease-fire, the end of the war in gaza, they told me that because i was -- i didn't want israel to be eliminated from the face of the earth, i was not allowed to be part of their protests." >> yeah, we had mayor eric adams of new york city on yesterday who said it was a mix of student protesters as well as outside agitators. he was clear to say, most of the students, peaceful. they were there on campus. it's the outside agitators causing most of the trouble and

hurling the violent rhetoric. we're not sure yet who has occupied this building, hamilton hall, the main academic building at columbia, also the site of the vietnam war protests of the 1960s. columbia university put out an alert this morning, telling students and personnel to stay off campus today because of what's happening there at hamilton. certainly, there is a place for peaceful protest. there shouldn't be any anti-semitism, any antimuslim rhetoric, too. >> jonathan, this is your college. who allows this? who allows students to take over buildings? i mean, again, this is not -- i'll tell you, this happened at vanderbilt or the university of alabama, it would be over. it would be over. at alabama, my god, it'd be over in five minutes. like, who allows students to break-in illegally into buildings and occupy buildings? >> i can think of a few. >> columbia is proud of its

history of protests. that's part of who columbia is. that said, of course, this seems like the administration made clear, this crossed any -- >> note to self, keep kids away from columbia. you're saying it's part of columbia's storied history to allow people to go in and illegally break into buildings. >> to protest peacefully. >> no, they're proud of breaking into the buildings and taking over presidents' offices in the 1960s. you'd think if that hung over them for 50 year, they would have been better prepared for this. >> certainly they were not. students and alumni and parents alike are upset as to how this has been handled. they hope to move to a quick resolution. we don't know whether the nypd would be involved. columbia had not asked for that. we'll see if that changes in the hours ahead. richard, i want to get to the ongoing state of the hostage negotiations.

secretary of state blinken was in saudi arabia yesterday. israel made a generous offer. we're simply waiting on hamas. u.s. officials feel there is a narrow window to get something done. there is a concern hamas doesn't have many hostages to give back to meet the criteria of the deal. a rafah invasion is coming, says netanyahu and his aides. u.s. wants this to be done before then. >> you have a two-phase negotiation that's being discussed. hostage for a prisoner exchange in phase one. then a limited but unclear how long duration pause, certainly in major military operations, possibly a complete cease-fire. yes, the israelis still want to move against rafah, where you have the preponderance of hamas fighters, as well as probably half the gazan population. the administration is trying to work this hostage-for-prisoner swap, get a cease-fire.

if they can't, the fallback of the administration is saying, we don't want you to go into rafah, but if you are going in, do it in a calibrated, measured way. use force for a more discriminated way than the last six, seven months. there are lots of negotiations going on with hamas, with israel, almost on various contingencies. that's where we stand. my guess is this will become clear in next couple of days. we are coming up to the seven-month point of this. let me say one last thing. however this works itself out over the next couple of days and weeks, you're still going to have some of the same fundamental questions. >> yeah. >> who is going to govern gaza? who is going to occupy it? what about the palestinians on the west bank? where do we go from here? is there a political dimension to israeli policy? joe was talking about settlements a minute ago. what about settler violence? what about israel's willingness to stop expropriating land?

the palestinian authority, willing and able to step up, to be a partner for peace? all of these issues are going to come back once we see what happens over the next few days. all right. jonathan greenblatt, to close, i just want to start where we began, which is on the campus of columbia university. you have students. you have outside agitators. you have people who don't know what they're talking about. within the realm of that, what can columbia do? if you can tell them how to handle this, what is the solution? >> president shafik, like, listen to the people around you. not to the radical fringe. president shafik, number one, none of us support the use of excessive force, but coordinate with law enforcement and get those protesters out of those buildings and retake the campus for all your students once and for all. number one. number two, no concessions to terrorists. these kids are telling you they, quote, want to burn columbia

down. like chancellor diermeyer, suspend and expel the kids trying to destroy the institution. number three, president shafik, no masking on campus. kids who conceal their identities, many are outside protesters, they're going in and destroying columbia university to the detriment of everyone. your jewish students need you. all your students need you. the broader columbia community needs you. president shafik, again, get in the law enforcement, consequences, not concessions, and no more masking, whether it is kkk or proud boys or sjp. >> ceo of the anti-semitism league, jonathan greenblatt, thanks for being here this morning. >> thanks. as we head to break, a quick statement last night from the university of florida, which says it patiently allowed students to protest many days, warned them, eventually, they'd

be trespassing. that i arrested a handful of students and sent out this statement. quote, "this is not complicated. the university of florida is not a day care, and we do not tree protesters like children. they knew the rules, broke the rules, and now will face the consequences." that's from the university of florida. >> hear, hear. >> makes a lot of sense. ahead on "morning joe," we'll talk about what to expect when donald trump's criminal hush money trial resumes in a manhattan courtroom in just a few hours from now. plus, hunter biden puts fox news on notice. what we're learning about a plan to sue the cable network for its coverage of the president's son. you're watching "morning joe." we're back in 60 seconds.

live look at capitol hill on a beautiful morning in washington, d.c. it's 39 past the hour. more than 50 u.s. mayors are in washington this week to discuss

efforts to combat homelessness at the federal level. joining us now, democratic mayor karen bass of los angeles. she's the chair of the u.s. conference of mayors task force on homelessness. and republican mayor david holt of oklahoma city. >> mayor bass, let me begin with you. thank you, both, so much for being with us. over the past few years, i've spoken with mayors of major cities, mainly across the northeast, some on the west coast, and ask, why can't you take care of the homelessness problem? why does it keep spreading? they'd allude to the lower court rulings that didn't give them the authority to take care of the homeless crisis in their own towns. it looks like the supreme court is going to give that power back to mayors, back to local officials, to have a wholist holistic approach, what works best in their communities.

does that work for you? >> it's not helpful, frankly. it's not just a matter of what tools you need to move people off the street. it is about getting people housed. my concern about what the supreme court can do is it could essentially usher in a wave of people being ticketed like they were in the city, $200, $300 tickets for being on the street. what does that solve? we need to get people housed, off the street and into housing. one thing we've certainly been able to do in l.a. is to see, people are not refusing to be housed. they don't want to be on the street. i think giving cities the power to arrest people or ticket people does not solve the problem. >> well, it doesn't solve the problem, mayor holt, but is it at least a good first step for you to be able to have more control of your situation? >> well, as a general rule, of course, mayors want local control, but as mayor bass said, i mean, you are not going to

arrest or incarcerate or ticket your way out of a homelessness issue. that's one of the toughest things to accept when you deal with this intractable problem. you have to bring wraparound services. people have come into homelessness a thousand different ways. you have to have a thousand different options to get them out of it. i would say it is a lot more complicated than that. you know, it is easy to clear an encampment and move people on, but if you're not getting them into housing and getting them the support, you know, the job training, the substance abuse, the mental health services they need, they're not going to stay off the street. >> mayor bass, los angeles has had a long running problem with homelessness, people on the street, skid roh and elsewhere. >> that's right. >> this didn't start with your administration, but you're in the hot seat now. what measurable progress have you made, can you make in the foreseeable future to get people off the street and get them housed? >> well, first of all, we

absolutely have to have a comprehensive solution because we can get people off the street and then more come on the street. but we have to develop a system of long-term interim housing while we are building. we are doing exactly that. so i've signed executive directives that fast track building, you know, los angeles over the years, which has become extremely expensive to live in. we have to address the supply of housing. we have to have a place for people to go while housing is being built. and the wraparound services mayor holt talked about. if we do not address this in a comprehensive manner, we are not going to succeed. to be clear, in los angeles, we're talking about in the city, 46,000 people who are unhoused. so we can make a measurable difference, but we have to operate from several different perspectives. that's why we're here in d.c. right now. we're trying to address a problem with veterans being unhoused. veterans should not have to choose between their benefits

and housing. that's the specific issue that over 40 mayors are here addressing on the hill today. >> mayor holt, good morning. as you know and you mentioned, so much of this gets back to mental health and mental illness of people on the streets and circumstances that have brought them there. how do you get better than we are now at the root cause of homelessness or at least one of the most prominent? >> right. i should give a lot of credit to the organization that mayor bass andry a part of because that's a high point of emphasis this year, in addition to homelessness, is mental health. we just have to invest in it at every level. you know, what caused a lot of what we see today, it's not the only cause, but, you know, 50, 60 years ago, this country made a decision for all the right reasons, to kind of close the institutions. the problem was that really wasn't replaced with anything. >> right. >> today, the streets and our jails and prisons have really replaced what was once the mental health institutions of this country. local level, state level,

federal level, everybody has got to make new investments in this issue. you're right, i mean, it is not the only thing. like i said, there are a thousand different ways that people enter homelessness. mental health is obviously a major contributor. we as a society have not invested in that enough. we have to do more. >> appreciate both of your focus on this issue. mayor bass, before we let you go, i want to ask about the scenes we're seeing. we were just discussing at the top of our show, at ucla and usc, the campus protests over the war in gaza. how do you think the schools have handled them? >> well, i think both schools have handled them the best that they can, but i will tell you, right now, both usc and ucla are peaceful. i know that the administration is talking to the protesters and trying to come to a peaceful resolution. i feel good that we will get there. >> all right. los angeles mayor karen bass and oklahoma city mayor david holt, thank you, both, very much for coming on this morning. >> we appreciate it.

>> thank you. coming up, we'll go over what to expect later this morning when donald trump's criminal trial resumes in lower manhattan. "morning joe" will be right back. why choose a sleep number smart bed? can it keep me warm when i'm cold? wait, no, i'm always hot. sleep number does that.

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criminal trial will resume in a new york city courtroom. today, banker gary farrow is respected to return to the

witness stand, dealing with his handling of the account during the hush money payment that was made to stormy daniels in 2016. that payment was part of an agreement to keep daniels from going public in an alleged fair with trump. trump has denied any sexual encounter with the adult film actress. after the payment became public, daniels' lawyer at the time, michael avenatti, provided nbc news with an email from an assistant to farrow, confirming the transfer. cohen had used his trump organization email address in the communication but said at the time, company funds were not used. joining us now, former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst joyce vance. joyce, what will we be looking for, or what will you be looking for today in the testimony? what connections is the prosecution trying to make? >> right. so the prosecution is at the point in this case where they're

setting the stage for michael cohen's testimony, still to come, building credibility for cohen, who is going to be a very difficult witness, by establishing the events he will testify to. that they occurred. that the banker can confirm the nature of payments. along those lines. also, the government now has to begin proving the essentials of its case. the core of this indictment are the false business records, the 11 invoices, the 12 entries in ledgers, and the 11 checks and check stubs that form the core of the false financial entries that the government has to convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt were made as part of a scheme to commit other crimes. so pretty soon, we'll see them go through the technical process of putting each of those items into evidence and in front of the jury. >> so we have a lot more to talk about with this with you, joyce,

as in a few hours, court will resume. we also want to ask about when the judge is going to rule on the gag order situation. stand by if you could. also coming up, we're going to talk with joyce vance about hunter biden's possible lawsuit against fox news. we'll be right back.

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this to this. 81. 78 and muggy. [ applause ] welcome back. we continue our conversation with joyce vance about the former president, donald trump's criminal trial taking place in new york city. it's due to start in just a few hours. of course, the former president has to be there and sit through this. right now, a banker is on the stand. joyce, beyond that, we're waiting for word on the gag order that the judge put in place, especially because donald trump was just spouting off about people. one of the reasons for it, correct me if i'm wrong, is for safety, for safety of the individuals involved with this trial, witnesses, members of the jury, whoever. and i know there still might be another hearing, so this is the part where i think i'm being an impatient observer, but a gag order that's put in place for people's safety, to me, when it is very clear it was broken, i don't understand why it is

taking so long to rule on it. can you explain? >> well, i have the same feelings that you do, mika, as an observer. usually, when there is a gag order violation, you expect a judge to act quickly because judges have the obligation to protect the integrity of the trial process. a big part of that is protecting the safety of jurors and witnesses. something that judges take very seriously. we don't know for certain why the judge is moving so slowly. he now has the third set of allegations of violations of the gag order to consider in yet another hearing this week. it's possible that he may have decided that his best way of controlling donald trump is to hold incarceration. he can put trump in jail for up to 30 days for a violation. he may believe holding that over trump's head for as long as possible, he ensures good

behavior. trump toned it down in the last week. >> interesting. far-right media outlet oan issued a retraction and apology to former president attorney michael cohen after publishing an article falsely claiming cohen had been having an affair with adult film star stormy daniels since 2006 and he cooked up the scheme to exhort the trump organization before the 2016 election. oan published the story last month using a single, unverified post on the social media site x as its source. that post claimed daniels' former attorney, michael avenatti, was the source for the false allegation. cohen hired a defamation attorney who approached oan about the report, prompting the outlet to contact avenatti, who denied making the allegations. daniels also denied the claim in a post on social media. in the settlement with cohen, no money was exchanged, but oan was

forced to remove the article and issue a retraction and an apology that reads in part, quote, "these statements were false. oan regrets their publication. to be clear, no evidence suggests that mr. cohen and ms. daniels were having an affair and no evidence suggests that mr. cohen cooked up the scheme to extort the trump organization before the 2016 election." adding, "oan apologizes to mr. cohen for any harm the publication may have caused him." >> mika, we obviously have the hunter biden suing fox story. >> it is the top of the hour. >> what do you think about stories like this and just one example after another of lies spread by people on the trump right coming back to actually cost them money? >> yeah. >> or in this case, just embarrassment. >> i'm confused about fox news, given they already had to pay

$787 million for lies. they still have smartmatic. i don't know why they continue to beat the drum on hunter biden in ways that were potentially irresponsible. it appears lawyers for hunter biden think so. now, they possibly might be moving forward with a lawsuit. along with joyce vance, we have claire mccaskill coming up. at the top of the hour, hunter biden is our top story. willie. >> that was a $787 million judgment against fox from dominion, just one year ago. now, lawyers. >> reporter: hunter biden's lawyers plan to sue fox because of claims made on the air. in a letter sent last week on ta obtained by nbc news, it reads, it arises from the network's subsequent actions to defame mr. biden. the letter focuses on a six-part special that aired on fox's streaming service in 2021. in it, the network presented a

mock trial for what it might look like if hunter biden were charged with being a foreign agent or with bribery, neither of which he has been charged with. biden's lawyers also say they plan to sue over fox's decision to show nude photos of hunter on the air, which he says were stolen. fox has not responded to a request for comment. what case to you see here potentially for hunter biden against fox news, joyce? >> well, what the core of the charges they're alleging would look like would be a defamation lawsuit with maybe some subsidiary torts like presenting hunter biden in a false light. willie, we've all watched our country be locked in this battle with disinformation. it looks increasingly like defamation lawsuits are one of the most important tools in the arsenal for pushing back. before you can file a lawsuit for defamation as a plaintiff, you have to demand a retraction.

you have to give the defendant an opportunity to say they were wrong. hunter biden is asking fox to retract. the question is whether fox will have the appetite to fight another lengthy, costly, expensive battle. they've already lost, as you've pointed out, in the dominion voting machine case. they're facing a $2.7 billion lawsuit from smartmatic later this year. >> you know, former u.s. attorney joyce vance, thank you so much for your insight this morning. joining us now, msnbc contributor mike barnicle. nbc news and political analyst, former u.s. senator claire mccaskill. she and jen palmieri are co-hosts of the msnbc podcast "how to win 2024." co-founder and ceo of "axios," jim vandehei. his book entitled "just the good stuff" is out today. we'll get to that in just a moment. on the hunter biden issue, do you think fox will have -- because i think they're

demanding sean hannity, jesse waters, and others apologize. do you think they'll do that, or do you think they're going to once again go -- >> double down? >> -- double down and face a pretty large verdict? you look at what's happened in the republican committee, and they've just spread one lie after another lie after another lie about hunter biden, and it's blown up in their face politically. >> i think that fox lawyers will have to look at what exactly they're accuing them of and whether it merits defamation. also, as it pertains to the nude photos of hunter biden when he was going through a drug addiction and other very difficult mental health challenges in his life, something that he's written about in his book and he owns and admits to, i guess revenge porn is now a thing that can

hold up in court. better to go to claire mccaskill, who may know more in terms of the law. but it seems to me that fox news has a decision to make. i'll just say, on a human level, when you put a person in a position where they have nothing left to lose, where you humiliate them to the point where they're like, you know what? you keep lying about me, now you're putting these pictures out of me, you're enjoying this. it's time. you get to the point then, you have someone who is willing to go to the mat. that's where it looks like hunter biden is headed. claire, your thoughts? >> well, i think it is smart for hunter biden to ask for a retraction. it is a complicated legal issue because they have to determine whether hunter biden is a public figure. there's a different set of rules for people who are public figures versus strictly private citizens. a defamation case is much more difficult if you are a public

figure. i will say this, i will say, this is all part of a problem that trump has really added to. we were all shocked listening to the testimony, reading the testimony of david pecker, when he actually talked in very plain and simple terms about how the "national enquirer" buried stories. how they paid people for stories that they then decided not to report. or how they were part of a political operation to smear political opponents. we were all shocked at that because even though everybody kind of knew it, about the "national enquirer," it was hard to hear it out loud if you are part of a news organization that takes their responsibility seriously. people need to understand, trump convinced about half the country that this is what all journalism is. that every outlet of journalism is made up, that it is all about trying to help somebody or hurt somebody, not reporting the

facts. so this is really what trump has done. fox has been under that umbrella now for a long time, even though it cost them close to a billion dollars. it is going to be very interesting to see whether they do the business prudent thing, which is to say, hey, we went too far and got it wrong, or whether they decide to open the checkbook again, if for nothing else, a very expensive legal proceeding. >> so it is interesting, jim vandehei. i mean, fair to say that, on issues pertaining to very important national conversations on january 6th and on trump's criminal -- the charges against him, and on hunter biden, fox news has sort of -- among other right wing, but they're the ones in question given the potential lawsuit, has really pushed the envelope. i'll say that kindly. i'll say that really kindly. >> yup. >> but out and out lied about

hunter biden, have said that january 6th was nothing. several of their hosts say out loud that it was nothing, nothing to be worried about. other hosts get away with it by just avoiding. they don't talk about, they don't cover, they don't put anything in context, and that's its own irresponsible choice. but here's about the law. what was your reaction to the news that hunter biden is suing fox news, your gut reaction? like, does hunter biden now just punch back, or does it seem like some of the other defamation suits we've covered recently, like it has legs? >> listen, we've done a lot of reporting on hunter biden, he has been very clear that he's wanted to fight back. he's often under a lot of pressure from the white house and people in the campaign not to. they don't want him to be the focal point of the campaign. he feels like, listen, he's getting maligned.

he feels like he has a case. he wants to fight that case. now, he is going to fight that case. what the senator said is the thing i think so much about, that we've all lived through. which is, i just hate the fact that so many people are losing all faith in the media and in truth because of these constant, relentless, baseless attacks. most people in the media are trying to get to the closest approximation of the truth. we are not perfect. but you better be careful out there. the minute that you have nothing that nobody trusts, it is very hard to govern. it is very hard to have society function. i think that needs to end. it probably won't. >> mike, what do you think about that, this idea of the lack of faith in the media? that, you know, certainly, we know there are voices on both sides, both political parties, but certainly from the right, donald trump has been doing this for years. he is the overwhelming, loudest voice here. republicans claimed a long time the mainstream media, but trump has deemed reporters enemies of the people. dangerous stuff.

a number of us have received threats because of it. is this something that we can ever get back, or is this now -- is this a lost cause? is the media always going to be viewed with skepticism and, frankly, outright disgust? >> that i don't know. i don't know the answer to those questions, jonathan. what i do know is donald trump was very ineffective, incompetent at governing. what he was not incompetent at was branding the press fake news, all of that. it is stuck. it has stuck. a lot of people have not as much faith in the media as they did 10, 15, 20 years ago. we were talking about the hunter biden case. everything, it seems, in this country goes to court almost immediately. we get tied up in legalisms. i'm telling you, the average person who -- take the average person that all of us know. anyone who leads an average, normal life. show them the last six or seven years of clips on fox news about hunter biden. throw out the legalisms and say,

oh, this is clearly an effort to destroy this guy's life, to destroy a human being. >> yeah. >> using the power of television to destroy a human being. now, he is going to take it to court, apparently, finally. but the news media's reputation, partially our fault. we've lost -- you know, when i got into the business, jimmy, when you got into the business, i don't know whether it was the same instructions given to you as was given to me, people like to read about people. >> yup. >> they don't like to read about smears. they don't like to get upset over their conflicts at 7:00 in the morning. they like the news, and they like to read about people. we have lost a lot of that impetus. >> yeah. gene robertson, i am struck, i'm really struck by the constant attacks against hunter biden. i remember soon after january

6th, somebody in the media going, what about hunter biden? what about hunter? i said, i'm sorry, could we allow the embers at the capitol to sort of -- >> clean up the feces. >> clean up the feces off the wall before you talk about hunter biden. then they went on and on. but there has been this obsession with hunter biden, not just on the far right but by truth tellers, so-called truth tellers. we're just going to tell the truth. the media, the mainstream, the dominant media doesn't want to talk about hunter biden. what about this person? an international fugitive it ends up. what about that person? you know, a guy who is just making stuff up. what we have at the end of all of this is, james comer making a total fool of himself. the republican committee making a total fool of themselves. the news outlets making a total fool of themselves. they have just lied over and over and over about him. i will say, there is this --

there is this push/pull. people inside the white house don't want hunter biden doing this. i'm not talking about joe biden. joe biden's aides don't want him doing this because it distracts from the campaign. but i completely understand hunter biden saying, enough is enough. you can only lie about me so long, then i'm coming after you. >> yeah. look, i think hunter biden is certainly justified, and i think right, in, you know, demanding that the record be set straight. the focus on him and his troubles, and he has had a troubled life with addiction and his tangled financial dealings, but that has nothing to do with anything except as a vulnerability that the far right has tried to exploit, a

vulnerability that they saw that president biden has and the democrats have. they have sought to exploit it in the most cynical and in, some ways, effective way. i mean, because they've created this atmosphere about him. i get email from people on the right who write to me about the biden crime family and hunter biden, hunter biden, hunter biden. they've created this atmosphere. you know, when we talk about media credibility and how different it is now, how much we've lost, i just sit here wondering if, number one, that's not a horse that's left the barn a while ago, and i wonder if what we need to do is sort of chase that horse at a time when so many people are not getting their news from established and

respectable news outlets. they're getting their news from tiktok and youtube and other sources. you know, we have to, i think, first, just reestablish ourselves as part of that conversation, as sources that people even go to regularly, let alone trust. i think that's the first challenge for us. >> yeah. fox news has a lot of power and a lot of viewers, and so i do understand why this matter needs to be settled one way or another. still ahead, we're going to talk about the continued backlash over governor kristi noem's dead puppy. also, we'll get to jim's new book entitled "just the good stuff." he'll explain that for us next.

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21 past the hour. south dakota governor kristi noem continues to face backlash from both sides of the aisle after she wrote in her upcoming memoir about killing her 14-month-old puppy, cricket, 20 years ago. here's how some fox news hosts

and analysts reacted. >> when you think about people having a dog put down, and i've had the experience with a dog in our family once had to be put down, you go to the vet and the vet does it with a shot. the dog goes unconscious and doesn't feel anything. not many people executed their own dog. a great many people in america look at that and think it is telling. i think it is damaging, brett, i really do. cruelty to animals, shooting your dog strikes people has not normal behavior by, they'd probably imagine, a not normal person. >> the fact she wanted to say that is also telling. >> pepeculiar. if i were a political adviser to her, and it's not my department, but had i been asked an opinion, i would have said, don't put that in your book, whatever you do. >> i have four rescues. i have a puppy. i got to tell you, what she's

done, she's sabotaged herself. whether or not it was to buttress down the road. but she also managed to unite the right and the left. america, if nothing else, we are dog lovers. >> she just destroyed any chance she had at being donald trump's vice president, if she had any chance at all. there is no going back from this. >> puppygate does continue to leave a mark. >> it is going to be the lead on "morning mika." >> claire mccaskill, your take on someone who believes she helps her vice presidential chances by saying that she decided to shoot a joyful -- >> jubilant. >> this is not how "old yellow" or "how the red fern grows," not how either one of those ended. this is sort of "good fellas" meets "old yeller," and i don't

think america likes the ending. >> my dad was from houston, missouri, a very small town. that's where we lived when i was born. my mom had to go to a little bitty town near houston to have me because there was no hospital in houston. i can assure you, this was really insulting to most farmers and ranchers in america. this is not how they would handle it. everybody understands the realities of farm life. there are sometimes different rules for livestock than you might think of for family pets. but really, the damning thing here is that, in trump world, in maga world, she actually believed this would help her. she actually believed that showing this kind of brutal, brutal cowardice and violence over an animal would elevate here in the eyes of donald trump. make no mistake about it, this is book, everything she's been doing for the last nine months, it's all about trying to become

vice president. i put on my twitter account last night, i don't know if you remember the episode on "succession" where roy logan did the bore on the floor game, where he made grown men, you know, scramble around the floor for a piece of sausage. >> yes. >> that's what i feel like the vice presidency contest is. trump is going to have a bore on the floor exercise for all these guys at mar-a-lago. they're all diminishing themselves with what they're willing to do to try to stand by his side. it really is sickening. >> i like to associate myself with the remarks of judge jeanine. americans, if nothing else, ice cream, the laughter of children, puppies, in a divided nation, these are the things that bring us together. to claire's point, it is pretty staggering that governor noem thought, i ought to slip this into the book. maybe donald trump will like it.

the number of people who must have read that manuscript, did anyone say, hey, maybe take that line out? i guess not. >> what is the line, though? >> narrative. >> she took the dog on a death march. she walked the dog to a gravel pit. gravel pit. then shot the dog. that's intent. that's like malicious intent. it's like walking a dog to the dog's death, incredible that anyone would have not looked at that manuscript and said, hey, this is a death march for you if you print that in your book. but she did. >> then she did it to a goat. >> she didn't just stop at the dog. >> yes. >> if you read on in the book, she decided that -- >> that's a chore. >> -- while she's at it, while she's on this murderous rampage of killing innocent pets, i'm just going to go after the family goat. >> she's a serial killer. >> i don't like how the goat

butt up against the kids and make their clothes dirty. >> missed it the first time. >> brought it into the ditch, shot the goat, and realized that she missed and only injured it. while the goat ri writhed in pa in the ditch, she looked for more ammo. >> kids are eating the captain crunch with crunch berries right now, sweetie. >> i'm not joking. >> she should have done what we do with the red sox pitchers. >> send them to worcester. >> yeah. i always say -- >> so many good choices one could have made before that. >> -- send them to where we don't have a program. >> she says the goat smelled. >> jim vandehei, tell me about your incredible book which does not smell and doesn't need to be taken to a gravel pit and thrown over. >> it does not. i don't assassinate any puppies in there named cricket. >> good. >> it's "just the good stuff," a

book about the lessons i've learned, we've learned from starting "politico," from starting "axios," hiring thousands of people and, unfortunately, fire people over time. the stuff i wish people would have learned me for ceo. written for managers, kids coming out of college, to wrestle with the tough stuff. i make a lot of fun of myself in terms of things i got wrong to eventually, hopefully, become a pretty good ceo. i benefitted from a ton of people, including the two of you. i want to thank the two of you. we started "politico" in early '07. you grew the most powerful morning news brand. you're entrepreneurs. we talk offset a lot about running businesses. you've been really generous in helping us. i appreciate that. >> that's nice. >> jim, it is hard for a southerner and also you to talk in a way that is not self-deprecating when looking back at your career. i know it may make you feel uncomfortable, but i do want to set this up.

after working for roll call and dave mcintosh. >> don't do that. >> i remember you went to work for "the washington post." i thought that was, like, the coolest thing. i thought, this is amazing. man, i knew this guy. he is working at "the post." i grew up reading about "the post." it is historic. i remember, and i'm dead serious, i remember when you said you were leaving "the washington post" to start something called "politico." i kind of was like, eh. like larry david, eh. >> you know. >> doesn't make -- and you went ahead and did it, and it was a success. i was like, oh, my god, i guess i was wrong about that. then leaving "politico" to start "axios," and, again, is this really -- >> it is amazing. >> jim, things like that don't happen by chance. i would like you to talk to

people. you know, the media is just -- everybody is getting wiped out out there. whether it is big companies, newspapers, little this, that. i'd like you to talk to people who, maybe it's a media startup having trouble, or a company they want to start, our maybe they want to figure out -- >> personal brand, yeah. >> -- what to do personally. what has made the difference for you? what do you think has made -- what can you pass on to other people that made the difference from you being able to be a great reporter at roll call to "the washington post," but then just blowing it all up and saying, i'm going to go to uncharted waters. >> you're going to make me blush, joe. i think the big thing is, one, doing something you love doing, which we all love doing what we

do. then really thinking about the person you're trying to serve. if you're running a media company right now, don't worry about the noise around you. try to serve the reader. in our case, we're trying to get them smarter faster on the topics that matter. "politico," it was trying to get them better informed on politics. just thinking about the culture, listen, there is a generational clash inside companies. we wanted to just make money and maybe not have employers hit us. young people want purpose and more meaning out of their work. it is great. figure out, how do you merge those things? how do you play the things that really motivate people, stay focused on doing one thing better than anyone else? >> right. >> if you surround yourself with good people who are really high achieving, good things happen. you do have a lot of choices. if you're working with bad people at a bad company, get them out of your life. so many people i know tolerate grossness in their life because they think they have to. we have a lot more agency than people realize.

>> jim, something you brought up which is so important, and i hope people will listen, especially younger people, younger entrepreneurs, younger students, people starting out, you talked about tuning out the noise, right? michael lewis, just one of the great writers as far as just being able to put a story together and whether it is "money ball" or "liar's poker," go down the list, he was saying the same thing. when you sit down and write, don't think about the negative things people are saying to you. write to somebody who believes in you. when he started writing, he wrote letters to his mother. he knew his mother didn't judge him. he could go off in any direction he wanted to go off without judgment. in this age of social media and everything else, i just want to salute you. you also "politico," people are

saying, oh, it's too this, too that. "axios" is too this. you put on the blinders and created great media outlets because you didn't listen to the critics. can you dive in more about how important it is for entrepreneurs, young people, students, to tune out the noise that they may hear on twitter or instagram or tiktok, and follow that north star. >> yeah. i think great point. shut it out but also surround yourself with people who do love you unconditionally or do understand you and are rooting for you. then be thankful when they do. one thing i hope the book takes off with is college graduates, especially from oshkosh, wisconsin, where i didn't grow up with privilege, other than two unconditionally supportive parents, didn't have riches, didn't have aachieved more thani could. i don't say it to brag but i

hope a kid in a small town picks up the book, is graduating, and decides, everyone dogs this country, but how could the kid from oshkosh, wisconsin, cover the presidency, ask whatever he wants, never have to fear being imprisoned like he would in an authoritarian regime like china, make a couple companies, make money, in an environment that celebrates the vitality of capitalism and of new ideas and of creating jobs? those are the great things. i think that gets lost in all this negativity that we marinate in. this is a far, far superior country to anything else out there. there is a reason people storm across the borders and want to come here. the smartest and the brightest want to be here, and the best things are created here. that gets lost when we sit on social media and doom scroll or become way too self-obsessed. i don't want to be lecturing, but for young people, there is so much you can do here. just tune that crap out. >> jim, i want to ask you about

the courage it takes to make the leap that joe was talking about from, in your case, "the washington post" to "politico," and then to "axios." i think there are a lot of people who are at their job because they get a check every two weeks and have benefits, and it feels secure. to go to a start-up or do something like you did, there is the intellectual part of it, which is, i kind of want to do that, but then the gut says, hang on to the security. how do you find the courage? not just you, but how should people find the courage to do something they feel passionate about or gives them more meaning than the job they're in. >> i don't consider myself a risk taker. i felt these were calculated risks. i think, like, you only get one swing at it, right? only one lap around the track. i want to make sure that i enjoy all of that. i want to also be calculated, making sure, listen, do i think i could start a company when we started the first one? did i feel i knew enough? did i know enough people would come around and help build it? it is pushing yourself out

there. otherwise, you're so complacent. life is a little dull. again, i know there are some people who are in positions who don't have the luxury to do that. i don't mean to diminish that. i think too often, that is a crutch. most people, until you have to take care of your children, maybe ailing parents, you probably have a little more freedom to go test new things if you're not happy. that's what i always wanted to do. i loved "the washington post" when i left. i really did. it was really hard, but i was so excited by the idea. i loved creating and helping create "politico." i've loved creating "axios." loved, like, building upon that. if you can -- that's the thing i tell kids. if you can, find something you would do for free, and then get paid for it. then the 80% of the day that you spend working or getting to work or whining about work, it's good energy. it is positive energy. i don't mean to be self-helpy about it but we spend a lot of time working. it helps to work with people you like. you can tell you like each

other. you've been with joe and mika now almost the entirety of the time. that's friendship, loyalty. you're also feeding off each other intellectually. we're blessed to be in the position we are. other people who are not in the news have those opportunities to do it as teachers or construction workers or whatever they choose to do. >> at the risk of sounding sincere with these two guys, we always talk about, how do you get up at 3:30/4:00 in the morning? you have to go to work with people you like and do a job you like. joe and mika and i talk about it all the time, too. not in the book, just wanted to get you quickly to talk about something we were discussing a minute ago, you're doing a lot of speaking in the country, going into red states, you're a media guy from washington, all that. you were making a fascinating point about how the temperature can be turned down. not to be pollyannish, we're all in together and find common ground, but what are you finding when you go on the road? >> i want to give twitter enough to hate on me today. i did a bunch of speeches in normal america. wichita, fargo, couple other places.

they were largely trump audiences. i'm there to explain politics. listen, i'm sure they're meat-eaters and ready to crush on this communist reporter from "axios," but the minute you say, i'm here to try to explain politics clinically, explain how the different parties are thinking about it. i'm not perfect in that explanation, like, you could see it. people were able to engage in a very thoughtful, hour-long conversation. no one threw anything at me. no one stormed out. no bun started yelling that you're a crazy lefty. there is a good lesson in that, in terms of when we're writing about these things and talking about it. the more we can be clinical and can be illuminating, so people are armed with a certain set of facts, less hyperventilating. it is easy to hyperventilate. there's a lot of bad stuff happening to us in the media who grew up in this stuff. it's abhorrent, but the more we can help explain to people and reach those persuadables, the

people who are still open-minded. i believe, and i'll go to my death believing there's more of those normal, persuaable people than most think. >> the book, "just the good stuff." jim vandehei, congrats on the book. >> thank you. anti-liberalism is tearing america apart again. historian bob kagan joins us next to explain that and weigh in on the state of our democracy ahead of the november election. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪♪ missing out on the things you love because of asthma? get back to better breathing with fasenra, an add-on treatment for eosinophilic asthma that is taken once every 8 weeks. fasenra is not for sudden breathing problems or other eosinophilic conditions. allergic reactions may occur. don't stop your asthma treatments without talking with your doctor. tell your doctor if your asthma worsens. headache and sore throat may occur. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. step back out there with fasenra.

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a while ago, i had the honor of calling senator barack obama to congratulate him -- [ crowd booing ] >> please. i urge all americans -- [ applause ] i urge all americans who supported me to join me in not just congratulating him but offering our next president our goodwill and earnest effort to find ways to come together, to find the necessary compromises, to bridge our differences, and help restore our prosperity, defend our security in a dangerous world, and leave our children and grandchildren a stronger, better country than we inherited. whatever our differences, we are

fellow americans. and please believe me when i say, no association has ever meant more to me than that. >> that was the late senator john mccain during his concession speech after the 2008 presidential election. that was just over 15 years ago, but those calls for bipartisanship, civility, and hope seemed far removed from today's toxic political climate and active threats to democracy. joining us now, senior fellow at the brookings institution, and columnist for "the washington post," bob kagan, author of the new book, "rebellion: how antiliberalism is tearing america apart again." thank you for coming on the show. let's start with the term antiliberalism, if we may. can you please define it? >> yeah. i mean, the word liberal is

thrown around, has a lot of meanings for a lot of different people. the essential thing about our founding was that it was a liberal government, in the sense that it was about protecting individual rights for all people, universal, equal rights for all people. that was what the government was founded on. we have been -- that system has been under attack at various, different times throughout our history. before the civil war, obviously, the south was opposed to that, to the declaration of independence. even today, in fact, coming back today, these forces have returned that are opposed, not just to the biden administration, but to the general regime. they call it the regime that is the founders' system. this is not just a donald trump problem. some of his core supporters are committed to changing the system that we've been living under and undermining our democracy. we need to understand that if

donald trump wins, it won't just be the danger posed by donald trump but by many people in his administration and by his strongest supporters who simply do not believe in the fundamental principles on which this government was founded. >> you write in the book, on the other hand, if he loses in november, he undoubtedly will call into consider the outcome of the election, the results. we've seen this movie before, of course, four years ago. then you sort of follow the dominos even further from there, which is to say, republican-led states may change the way they work with or do not work with the federal government and view their own role in our culture, our society. >> yeah, for one thing, we kind of forget that the secession or the threat of secession was a common feature of american governance, certainly in the 19th century, until the civil war. it is always an option. i think what we need to understand is that if donald trump loses, as i hope he does, and he declares that the election is fraudulent, this

time, he is going to have the republican party substantially supporting him. you'll see the leaders in both houses agree that the election was fraudulent because they're totally, you know, supportive of whatever trump says. then the question is, what happens in heavily republican states? states where the legislature is republican, where the governor is republican. we've already seen texas recently, in a way, engaging in nullification by having its own -- or trying to establish its own border control, which is, you know, not the way things are supposed to work. you know, if you poll americans, quite amazingly, a very high number in both parties talk about the possibility of secession if the wrong person is elected president. i do think that is something to worry about. the one thing that i think we can all be confident of is that if trump loses, there will be a substantial resistance, perhaps

violence, you know, january 6th on a much greater level. i think we won't be out of the woods even if trump loses. >> bob, we have always had tremendous issues boiling in this country, forever, no matter what decade you're talking about, no matter what generation. but today, if you listen to the principal candidate for the republican nomination for the presidency, he describes, at times, a country that, to me, is unrecognizable. a country that seems almost finished. a country that if he is not elected, it's over for this country. a country that if the election goes to joe biden this fall, it'll be the last free election we ever have. what has happened within the confines of all of that i just described, to so drastically change the way we look at the country? >> well, i think what's happened is the republican party has been captured by this fundamentally anti-liberal movement. it is a minority of the country. in fact, it is a shrinking

minority of the country, inso far as as made up of white christian nationalists who are a shrinking portion of the country but who have a significant influence, clearly, in the republican party and can control what everybody else does. that has given trump license -- and, in fact, he summoned this group to him. we talked about john mccain's concession speech to barack obama. how did donald trump introduce himself to the scene in this country? 2011, potentially for a 2012 run, he made his number one issue the birther conspiracy. in other words, the first black american president was not really an american. n american candidate of white nationalism.

now he made himself the candidate of white christian nationalism with the trump bible, saying he is going to teach america to pray again. this is from donald trum but he has that following. what we're seeing is not necessarily a fundamental misdirection of the united states, but particular group that haspa always existed in th country has now seized control of one of our two political parties and we are paying the price for that. >> one of donald trump's first acts as ana candidate was to attack john mccain and his heroism. it's titled "rebellion: how antiliberalism is tearing america apart." again, bob kagan, thanks. congrats on the book. still ahead congressman moskowitz and mike lawler will join us on the bipartisan effort to crack down on antisemitism on college campuses. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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joe," donald trump's criminal trial will resume. the banker who worked with michael cohen is set to retake the witness stand. we will go through what we expect from that testimony. a look at new images showcasing the initial wave of beatlemania. through the lens of sir paul

mccartney. we will show you the decades-old personal photographs captured by mccartney that he once thought were lost. we are back in a moment with another packed hour of "morning joe." g joe. because your basic things should be your best things. one purchased equals one donated. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first order.

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not going to like kristi noem. in her book, she admitted to killing her dog. i know that sounds terrible. look, i know it sounds terrible.

but it's much worse. cricket ruined the hunt, going out of her mind with excitement, chasing all those birds and having the time of her life. but who among us hasn't seen a dog running through the fields, not a care in the world and thought, you deserve to die? i am not sure being the bad guy in a john wick movie is with best way to go. >> i am afraid what she might do when she finds out how many chickens her favorite president has killed. >> all right. the kristi noem story providing the late night shows with plenty of material, even conservative media has turned on the republican governor of south dakota. now dismissing her as a serious contender for donald trump's running mate. we will play that reaction for you. there was a lot of it. people just don't get it. i don't think anyone understands

how you kill a puppy. also this morning, former president trump will be back in court today for his criminal hush-money trial. we will have a preview of what to except on that. also new this morning, fox news facing another threat of litigation almost a year after the network agreed to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to dominion voting systems. >> and this challenge from hunter biden. >> yeah. he is, i guess, considering a lawsuit. they made an announcement about it yesterday. we'll tell you the latest. >> and oan had to settle with michael cohen for lying about him. it's almost as if people like rudy giuliani and that infowars guy and all these other people are learning that, well, defamation laws still have bite in america. you can't just make up stuff about other people and just run

it on your network. >> there is a cost that oan had to retract a story about michael cohen. we know almost $1 billion, that settlement against fox news, perhaps left a mark. now another lawsuit from hunter biden. but, yeah, there are consequences to spewing false information out into the atmosphere and it's good to see some people now starting to hold news organizations that just make stuff up in the interest of politics to defame people are being held accountable. >> well, make stuff up and refuse to attract when it's brought to their attention they are wrong. we will see what happens in the hunter biden case. we have seen time and time again rudy giuliani still going around, i think, lying about, you know, conspiracy theories and everything else. it goes on and on. but it is pretty crazy. you look at, again, all of the false information.

again, it's, like we said, almost as if gravity's returned. speaking of gravity returning, gravity returning i hear, willie, to madison square garden. in fact, like -- >> where is he going with this? >> you got the knicks. you got the rangers. you got, you know, it's been floating in the -- the stratosphere of irrelevance since about 1971. looks like things are about to get crazy. >> that was unfair. it was 197 that we last won a title. >> he almost called you his son. >> i called you my son because i was about to tell you george geist and i were at the garden when the place was physically shaking, madison square garden. it was unlike any experience i had at any game. knicks up 3-1. richard haass and i were talking. need to close it out tonight.

the sixers go back home, win game six. then a high-stakes game. hope the knicks close it out tonight and i fully expect the garden to be at its very best. along with joe, willie and me, the host of way too early jonathan lemire, president emeritus of the council on foreign relations richard haas, author of the weekly newsletter home and away and associate editor of "the washington post" eugene robinson is with us as well. we begin with the growing unrest at columbia university. overnight people protesting israel's war against gaza occupied a campus building, the same one students took over in the 1960s. the building is a few hundred feet away from the gaza encampment site. now the university is urging people to avoid coming to campus

today if they can. the protests escalated just hours after the university began suspending students who refused to leave the encampment. the tents have been up for nearly two weeks and the university wants to clear it before graduation on may 15. the protesters held a press conference yesterday afternoon saying the university has not made significant concessions to their main demand. the group wants columbia to divest from companies with links to israel. the students also claim columbia has stopped negotiations as a result. they say they will, quote, not be moved unless by force. >> meanwhile, protests escalating at other college campuses. the university of texas protesters clashing with police there resulting in dozens of arrests. video shows officers in riot gear dragging, carrying out demonstrators.

at least 40 were taken into custody yesterday for trespassing and disorderly conduct. many of them were not affiliated with the school. a phenomenon we are seeing at manies campuses. the university of utah, the university says 17 people were arrested last night. one officer was injured. a hatchet was confiscated there. the number of arrests at campuses across the nation now approaching 1,000. let's bring in the ceo of the anti-defamation league jonathan greenblatt. eugene robinson also visited the campus of george washington university yesterday. gene, i want your impression of what you sat gw, one of the flashpoints in these protests the last two weeks. what did you see in your reporting yesterday? >> well, i got there at a pretty quiet moment. the night before had been a very loud moment on sunday night.

the protesters had essentially, there was a small encampment on the university yard that authorities had surrounded it with barricades. they actually had asked the d.c. police to clear that small encampment on friday night and the d.c. metropolitan police said, no, we don't think that's a great idea. so they didn't do it. so it was still there. then on sunday night, the students had torn down the barricades and rushed in and put up a whole bunch more tents. so it was a larger encampment. it was very quiet when i was there in the morning. some of the protesters were asleep. some were sitting to outside of their tents apparently cramming for finals. and so when i was there, there wasn't any chanting or any shouting. there haven't been the kinds of

conflict encounters at george washington we have seen at some of the other universities. so the administration is trying to figure out what to do. but it's a stalemate, as it is on -- i think there have been protests at more than 50 campuses around the country right now. >> you know, gene, i think it may be the only time in your life you struck that pose. >> what? >> you remember the story of nixon? you go out and understand the anti-war protesters. got there so early in the morning wearing his dress shoes that they were still asleep at the lincoln memorial and nixon tried to talk to them about usc football. he didn't connect with the kids that way. i'm curious what your thoughts

are. i had a lot of nice, wonderful, well intentioned people that watch the show, love the show, write me yesterday, and i wrote a lot of them back, called one or two back, saying the vietnam war was a bad war, joe, and you were -- and this gaza thing, we understand the kids and what they are doing. i understand, obviously, the protests to an unjust war. we have been bitterly critical of netanyahu's response in gaza. we understand all of that. i am curious what your thoughts are on -- and we have to talk to jonathan in a moment. how you balance that with not just outside agitators, but also a rising sense of antisemitism on college campuses. i tell you, i know. i know firsthand from friends and family members that jews are

being pushed to the side socially, and that woke white girls and boys coming from elite families are telling their friends that they can't hang out with jewish friends, and i could go on. i have been -- and maybe one of the reasons i was engaged as i was yesterday is, i have been hearing about this now for three, four, five, six months, where jewish students don't feel safe on college campuses, and this isn't a bubble wrap or snowflake moment. this is people talking about genocide, screaming at them as they try to go to their english class on campus. so what do we do, gene? >> look, the antisemitism is intolerable. it is awful. and it is going to wreck, to destroy the movement and prevent

any sort of chance of them achieving any of their aims. i'll get to the aims in a minute. but it's crazy and it has to stop. and again when i happened to be there i didn't witness it. there hasn't been that much at george washington of that sort of thing, but then again, not every protest is alike. and i know. i have seen some of the video and some of the scenes and some of the audio from columbia and from some of these other protests. it's horrible. it's atrocious. you know, antisemitism, if antisemitism is going to be a central element of this movement, then it deserves to fail and it will fail. but what i saw and what i think

we are seeing in polls that have been taken and this and that is something of a generational shift in overall sort of attitudes and impressions of the palestinian/israeli conflict. and we have seen polls showing that younger adults 30 and under, are much more sympathetic to the palestinians than older groups, and perhaps they are less aware of history. they seem to be very confused about how and why the state of israel was founded and this and that, but this is real. i mean, this is being shown poll after poll. and these kids grow up. so i think it's something we out to pay attention to in sort of that macro lens. >> you know, willie, the thing is, and i am certainly not

saying this of all the student protesters that are out there, and certainly not children of palestinian families who have lost loved ones through the years in this war, in this conflict. i will say, though, among, again, and i have spoken with some of them. i want to be careful. but among these white woke pampered elitist -- i am not supposed to use that word. let's say children from wealthy families that decide, as dr. brzezinski said so many years ago, they are going to play radical for a weekend and go home to mommy and daddy's mansion, there is a complete ignorance about the complexities of this issue. if you listen to the show, you would understand many of the complexities of this issues because we have been really

tough on israeli officials that come on this show. we have asked why they've continued to allow illegal settlements in the west bank over the decade, why they have continued to fight against a two-state solution for peace, why they have done what they have done in gaza, why they did with hamas, why netanyahu was hamas' ally leading up to october the 7th. so it's very complicated. and when you start talking about even west bank settlements with a lot of these students, their eyes glaze over. that's not in the tiktok video. again, i am not saying this about all the students. but i will tell you, a hell of a lot of students i have spoken with, when you go in 2000 there was an accord where bill clinton got together and they were giving 97% of the west bank to the palestinians and the other 3% they were going to make up with israeli land and they

figured out a capital in the east -- and they sit there with their eyes glazed. have no idea what happened in the peace process, what happened through the years. they see something on tiktok and they are like, israel bad and hamas good and they go out and start shouting at jews. >> you could ask what does it mean to chant from the river to the sea and they don't know. when you tell them what it is, and we have seen this from reporters asking them. not all of them. some of them have a deep understanding of this. they don't understand that means elimination of the state of israel and people who live within that state. i have been having a lot of same questions, joe. if you watch the show, you know how critical we have been of netanyahu, the prosecution of the war, we grieve and mourn for women and children who have been killed in the war that are starving in the war. it's a terrible, terrible thing. but that does not give kids on college campuses license to

chant from the river to the sea and to say that jewish kids should not exist in some cases. at columbia, for example. jonathan, from your point of view at the adl, what are you hearing? you brought a great look at the jewish experience since october 7th. right now in the midst of these protests, what is it like to be a jewish student on the campus of not just columbia, the university of texas, there are a bunch of schools. >> it's the right question, willie. i was at ucla on sunday. i was at usc on friday. i was talking to jewish student. i was at columbia last week. i don't know what eugene saw at g.w., but you i talked to students at all these universities and they don't feel afraid. they are with good reason. as mentioned in the opening here, you had someone with a hatchet at the university of utah. you had students with hammers who broke into the building at columbia last night.

you had someone with a sword at ucla on sunday. this isn't normal. people showing up fully concealing their faces like they are isis fighters, that isn't form. i have heard from kids again and again and again they are leaving campus, they are moving out of their dorms because they are worried. at columbia, president minouche shafik had to close classes. classes are over at columbia. they all went remote because the administration was so afraid of these people. i see these videos, i see the images of mass protesters breaking into buildings, barricading with furniture. i am reminded of january 6th. that's what this looks like to me. we talk at adl about right-ring extremists, masked proud boys showing up at school board meetings, oath keepers wearing masks. i look at this and this is what i see. let's be clear about one thing.

the students doing this, the groups behind it, sjp, palestinian youth movement, their response to president minouche shafik's movement last night, was columbia will burn. we shouldn't treat the students like children when they are hardened activists. >> these authorities and the lack of them, why are these school administrators, why are they abdicating their responsibility to this degree? and this affects students. it affects outsiders. tenure is supposed to give you intellectual protection so you can say things in classrooms. it doesn't give you the ability to break the law with impunity. i don't understand what -- and you see also the difference on the campuses between what's happening on some. chicago and florida as opposed to what is happening at columbia and others. there is an enormous gap in the principle and backbone we are seeing here. >> coming up, a preview of donald trump's day in criminal

court. former u.s. attorney joyce vance weighs in on the prosecutor's case against the ex-president as court resumes today. "morning joe" is back in a moment. an alternative to pills, voltaren is a clinically proven arthritis pain relief gel, which penetrates deep to target the source of pain with nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory medicine directly at the source. voltaren, the joy of movement.

more than 50 u.s. mayors in washington this week to discuss efforts to combat homelessness at the federal level. joining us is democratic mayor karen bass of los angeles, she is the chair of the u.s. conference of mayors task force on homelessness, and republican mayor david holt of oklahoma city. >> so, mayor bass, let me begin with you. thank you all both so much for being with us. over the past few years, i have spoken with mayors of major cities, mainly across the northeast and some of the west coast, and asked, why can't you take care of the homelessness problem? they allude lower court rulings that didn't give them the authority to take care of the homeless crisis in their own

towns. it looks like the supreme court is going to give that power back to the mayors, back to local officials to take -- to have a holistic approach, the way that works best in their own communities. is that good news for you? >> well, i don't think that it's helpful, frankly. it's not just a matter of what tools you need to move people off the street. it's about getting people housed. and so my concern about what the supreme court can do is that it could essentially usher in a wave of people being ticketed like they were in the city 200, $300 tickets for being on the street. what does that solve? we need to get people housed, off the street into housing. one thing that we have certainly been able to do in l.a. is to see people are not refusing to be housed. they don't want to be on the street. so i think giving cities the power to arrest people or to ticket people does not solve the problem.

>> well, it doesn't solve the problem, mayor holt. but is it a good first step for you to be able to have more control of your situation? >> well, as a general rule, of course, mayors want local control, but as mayor bass said, i mean, you are not going to arrest or incarcerate or ticket your way out of a homelessness issue. that's one of the toughest thing to self when you deal with this intractable probably. you have to wring wraparound services. people have come into homelessness thousands of different ways. it's a lot more complicated than that because it's easy to clear an encampment and move people on. if you are not getting them housing and support, the job training, substance abuse, mental health services they need, they are not going to stay off the street. >> mayor bass, los angeles has had a long running problem with homelessness and people on street, skid row and elsewhere.

so this certainly didn't start with your administration. but you're in the hot seat now. what sort of measurable progress have you made, can you make in the foreseeable future to get people off the street and get them housed? >> first of all, we absolutely have to have a comprehensive solution because we get people off the street and then more come on the street. but we have to develop a system of long-term interim housing while we are building and we are doing exactly that. so i have signed executive directives that fast track building. you know, los angeles over the years has become extremely expensive to live in. we have to address the supply of housing. we have to have a place for people to go while housing is being built and the wraparound services that mayor holt talked about. if we do not address this in a comprehensive manner, we are not going to succeed. to be clear, in los angeles we are talking about, in the city, we are talking about 46,000

people who are unhoused. and so we can make a measurable difference, but we have to operate from several different perspectives, and that's why we're here in d.c. rate now. we are trying to address a problem with veterans being unhoused. veterans shouldn't have to choose between their benefits and housing. so that's the specific issue that over 40 mayors are here addressing on the hill today. >> mayor holt. as you know and you mentioned so much of this gets back to mental health and mental illness of people on the streets and circumstances that have brought them there. how do you get better than we are now at the root cause of homelessness or at least one of the most prominent? >> right. give credit to the organization that mayor bass and i are a part of. that's a high point, mental health. we just have to invest in it at every level. what caused a lot of what we see, not the only cause, but 50, 60 years ago this country made a

decision for all of the right reasons to kind of close the institutions. the problem was that really wasn't replaced with anything. so today the streets and our jails and prisons have really replaced what was once the mental health institutions of this country. local level, state level, federal level, everybody's got to make new investments in this issue. it's not the only thing. there are a thousand different ways that people enter homelessness. mental health is, obviously, a major contributor and we as a society have not invested in that enough. we have to do more. >> appreciate your focus on this issue. mayor bass, i want to ask about the scenes we are seeing and we were discussing at the top of the show, ucla and usc, these campus protests over the war in gaza. how do you think the schools have handled them? >> both schools have handled them the best they can, but i will tell you right now both usc and ucla are peaceful.

i know that the administration is talking to the protesters and trying to come to a peaceful resolution. so i feel good that we will get there. >> all right. los angeles mayor karen bass and oklahoma city mayor david holt, thank you both very much for coming on this morning. coming up, our second bipartisan panel of the morning. we are joined by democratic congressman jared moskowitz and republican congressman mike lawler as they work to raise awareness about antisemitism. "morning joe" is back in a moment. (psst! psst!) ahhh! with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary. spray flonase sensimist daily for non-drowsy long lasting relief in a scent free, gentle mist. flonase all good. also, try our allergy headache and nighttime pills.

this morning donald trump's criminal trial resumes in a new york city courtroom. today banker gary farro is set to return to the witness stand for more questioning,

specifically about his handling of michael cohen's account at the time of the alleged hush-money payment made to stormy daniels in 2016. that payment was part of an agreement to keep daniels from going public and about an alleged affair with trump. trump denied any sexual encounter with the adult film actress. after the payment became public, daniels' lawyer at the time, michael avenatti, provided nbc news with an email from an assistant to farro confirming transfer. cohen used his trump organization email address in the communication, but said at the time, company funds were not used. joining us now former u.s. attorney and ms nbc legal analyst, joyce vance. >> right, so the prosecution is

at the point in this case where they are setting the stage for michael cohen's testimony, still to come. building credibility for cohen, who is going to be a very difficult witness by establishing the events he will testify to, that they occurred, that the banker can confirm the nature of payments. along those lines. but also the government now has to begin proving the essentials of the case. the core of this indictment are the false business records, the 11 invoices, the 12 entries in ledgers and the 11 checks and check stubs that form the core of the false financial entries that the government has to convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt were made as part of a scheme to commit other crimes. and so pretty soon we will see them go through the technical process of putting each of those items into evidence and in front of the jury. >> beyond that, we are waiting for word on the gag order that

the judge put in place, especially because donald trump was just spouting off about people and one of the reasons for it, correct me if i'm wrong, is for safety. for safety of the individuals involved with this trial, witnesses, members of the jury, whoever. and i know there still might be another hearing. this is the part where i think i'm being an inpatient observer. but a gag order that's put in place for people's safety to me, when it's clear it was broken, i don't understand why it's taking so long to rule on it. can you explain? >> well, i have the same feelings that you do, mika, as an observer. usually when there is a gag order violation you expect a judge to act quickly, because judges have the obligation to protect the integrity of the trial process, protecting the safety of jurors and witnesses, something judges take very seriously.

we don't know for certain why the judge is moving so slowly. he now has the third set of allegations and violations of the gag order to consider in yet another hearing this week. it's possible that he may have decided his best way of controlling donald trump is to hold the threat of incarceration. he can put trump in jail up to 30 days for a violation, and he may believe by holding that over trump's head as long as possible he ensures continued good behavior. trump has toned it down in about the last week. the lawyers for hunter biden say they are planning to sue fox news over unfounded claims made about hunter biden on the air. in a letter last week obtained by nbc news, biden's attorneys notified fox of the impending lawsuit. they write, it arise from the network's subsequent actions to defame mr. biden. it focuses on a special that

aired on foxes streaming service in 2021. in it the network presented a mock trial for what it might look like if hunter biden were charged with being a foreign agent or with bribery, neither of which he has been charged with. biden's lawyers also say they plan to sue over fox's decision to show nude photos of hunter on the air, which he says were stolen. fox has not responded to a request for comment. what kind of case do you see here potentially for hunter biden against fox news? >> well, what the core of the charges they are alleges would look like would be a defamation lawsuit with maybe torts like presenting hunter biden in a false light. you know, we've all watched our country be locked in this battle with disinformation, and it looks increasingly like defamation lawsuits are one of the most important tools in the arsenal for pushing back. before you can file a lawsuit for defamation as a plaintiff,

you have to demand a retraction. you have to give the potential defendant the opportunity to say that they were wrong. and so hunter biden is asking fox to retract, and the question is whether fox will have the appetite to fight another lengthy costly expensive battle. they lost, as you pointed out in the dominion voting machine case, and they are facing a $2.7 billion lawsuit from smartmatic later this year. when you don't read and pray, you say, wow there's a bible out now that includes the constitution and the bill of rights. isn't that wonderful? no. no, it's disgusting. it's blasphemous. it's a ploy. >> a pastor in north carolina takes donald trump to task for

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the beatles through the eyes of paul mccartney himself. a new exhibit features hundreds of photographs that were once believed to be lost. we'll talk to the person who found them when "morning joe" comes right back.

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does all that hair help you sing? >> definitely, yeah. >> he feel like sampson if you lost your hair, you'd lose what

you have? >> i don't know. i don't know. i don't know. >> i don't think so. >> how many are bald, that you have to wear those wigs? >> deaf and dumb, too. >> they had a question about -- >> that was a look -- >> george's hair. >> cute. >> you should have seen it yesterday. i said, when are you going to cut your hair? >> that was the first look at the beatles first press conference on american soil in february of 1964 during their meteoric rise. the fab four's every movement was documented by the press. but now thanks to a new museum exhibit, the public can re-live those early days of the beatles through the lens of one of its own members. paul mccartney photographs 1963-64 eyes of the storm opens at the brooklyn museum this friday and was co-curated by sir

paul himself. it includes 250 photographs taken by the music legend from the 12-week stretch in late 1963 and early 1964 when beatlemania first took the world by storm. >> let's bring in the exhibit's co-curator, sarah brown, the photographic curator of mccartney productions limited. >> how cool is this? >> it is beyond cool, sarah. what is so cool, one of the many things about it is sir paul thought these pictures were lost. as he says in the quote, it was the '60s. doors were left open. fans came in and out. who would have guessed? my god, what historical gold mine. talk about finding these pictures at the peak of beatlemania. >> absolutely. so, paul was very pleasantly

surprised to find that they were all still in great condition and that there was around 1,000 photographs from this three-month period that you mentioned. and he worked really closely with myself and the national portrait gallery in london to narrow down 1,000 pictures to 250 you can see on show at the museum. >> you know, what's so extraordinary also about these photos that were found, it really was at the explosion of beatlemania, '63, '64, coming to america. and he talks about it being like a roller coaster ride, and you are getting at the top and you are waiting for it to crash down. there is this amazing picture he took, and i can't believe it. it's on 58th. n 58th

>> absolutely. it really sums up that journey for them at that moment in time. paul talks about how that made him feel like a movie star in a film. he said this is what their years of hard work had been building up to, and the reason he took pictures was because he was so in awe of what was going on around him. as we know, that band just went biggerd and bigger and up and . this is a really special treasure trove of a three-month period in history that really changed music, popular culture forever. >> there's a picture of the

beatles landing at an airport.n i never saw women in bikinis ata jfk. then i realized it was miami. it was like a summer holiday for these young guys to get down to miami. talk about this and especially the miami trip as it plays into this exhibit. >> by the time you get to miami and the exhibit, they have been on the road since december '63. they'd barely had any days off. this is a moment where they've gone to perform on the ed sullivan show, a performance that broke records with 73 million people watching it. in miami, we had three beauty queens wearing beatles bans, but there was also someone dressed in head to toe leopard print and

holding a chimpanzee. it kind of sums up the fun of the '60s and what they were experiencing. >> this miami time, it's almost like a scene in "the wizard of oz" where everything had been in black and white, and then sir paul switches out his camera and he goes color. i've seen some photos in miami other than the famous cassius clay picture.tu george, it seems, enjoyed miami more than any other beatle. here is george lounging by the pool t here. again, just an incredible photo. >> paul summarized this one as

them living the good life. this is them at the end of this really intense period where they had been performing in paris three shows a day, they finally had a day off. three of them had never been to the u.s. before. they were in their absolute element living, as paul said, the good life. in the exhibition there's a photograph of george putting on his suntan lotion. it's intimate moments that no other press photographer would have got. that's what makes the exhibition so special. >> this is what the "washington post" t wrote. mccartney'se. photographs are me intimate than anything in the beatles "get back."

mccartney living with his subjects every minute in the apartment and backstage, he could peer underneath the blanket wherever he wanted to. what makes this so special is that hea wasn't trained as a photographer, yet he had this extraordinary eyehi for composition and the dramatic. the parallels of him as an artist, as a musician without any formal training, and yet he can sail above everybody else, because it just comes naturally. art comes naturally to him. >> its does. i think this exhibition really shows that he has a true artistic eye.

none of the photographs in the exhibition are cropped. he was composing the shots in the blink of an eye. he was moving in a car, in a train, but he still managed to get these beautifully composed shots with amazing lighting. he does talk about the photographers who inspired him and that he was lucky to be surrounded by artists throughout this period of time. >> talk to us about some of the broader themes you find. what are some of the take-aways when someone goes and sees that? >> looking at it as a really jolly moment for them. people know the band and are still familiar with them, but going to the show you may walk away seeing something different. john wearing his chunky glasses.

the everyday of being bored backstage, waiting around, this idea of life on the road. >> i love it. you can see the new exhibit ex "paul mccartney photographs 1963-64 eyes of the storm" friday may 3rd through august 18th at the brooklyn museum. ccurator sarah brown, thank you for a sneak peak. >> my pleasure. coming up, as the gaza war protests upend campus life at universities across the country, "new york times" columnist david french argues colleges have gone off the deep end, but he says there is a way s out, next on "morning joe." there is a way out, next on "morning joe." to buy and

never publish unflattering stories about trump, a practice known as "catch and kill," which is also kristi noem's book. we begin with protests on the campus of columbia university escalating overnight with the occupation of the building after students refused to leave an encampment. >> reporter: overnight, campus

protests escalating. demonstrators occupying a building at columbia university, smashing windows, barring doors, unfurling banners including one reading "intifada." >> these repulsive scare tactics mean nothing compared to the deaths of over 34,000 palestinians. >> reporter: some faculty on site linking arms with some of the demonstrators. overnight, at virginia commonwealth university in richmond, clashes between police and protesters on campus leading to arrests. and at ucla in the early hours of the morning, authorities in tactical gear moving in during

confrontations between dueling demonstrators. early in the day, students storming through a building waving a palestinian flag, some jewish students frustrated. >> i was always supported the right for freedom of protest and speech, but when that starts to impede upon our right to education, that's where i have an issue. >> reporter: state troopers also in riot gear in austin, students surrounding police, who say they used pepper spray to disperse the crowd. the university says they believe the majority of protesters are not affiliated with the school. and the university of florida taking a firm stance this morning. in a statement following arrests, the school saying the university of florida is not a daycare and we do not treat protesters like children. they knew the rules, they broke the rules and they'll face the

consequences. >> that was george solis with that report. by the way, david french is coming up to talk about a piece entitled "colleges have gone off the deep end" on the "new york times." we'll look at potential solutions here while things seem to be escalating at college campuses across the country, including columbia. >> what did that look like when they were breaking the windows? >> it looked like january 6th. students have quite a model in maga republicans, i guess. meanwhile, the house rules committee voted yesterday to advance a bipartisan bill that would codify the international holocaust remembrance alliance's definition of anti-semitism into

title 6 of the 1964 civil rights act. common mike lawlor joins us now along with congressman jared moskowitz of florida. congressman lawlor, tell us more about the bill and what you hope to accomplish with this in a bipartisan effort. >> i think what we're seeing on college campuses right now is a failure to act and a failure to lead. the problem is the lack of a clear definition of anti-semitism. what this bill would do is force the department of education to adopt the ira working definition. i think defining it clearly and forcing these schools to act is

critically important in this moment. >> congressman moskowitz, explain how it would define it and how it could change the game to what's happening on college campuses. where's the ambiguity here? a lot of us don't see ambiguity in hatred. >> thank you for having us to talk think about issue. it's going to give more teeth to the federal government to enforce rules and regulations. it's going to give more teeth to universities and colleges across the country. as the president of uf said in the beginning of that statement, this is not complicated. we're seeing universities complicate it by failing to lead and protect their students, giving all the power to the protesters.

i have been to columbia. i have talked to jewish students and parents. while there are peaceful protesters, while we do not want to lose sight of the plight of the people in gaza, make no mistake about it, there is a tremendous amount of anti-semitism on these campuses. we have members in this body pouring gasoline on that by saying jews fall into two buckets, pro-genocide and anti-genocide. this is what's going on. i remember when charlottesville happened. it was universal condemnation. the people who tried to ignore that or explain it away or say it's not everybody, we condemn those people.

here for some reason all of a sudden it's peaceful. >> congressman lawlor, how do you explain that double standard? some of what we're hearing is explicit calls for anti-semitic activity, behavior and violence. why are the universities handling these protests unlike any other if it were any other group of people being targeted? >> if this was a protest against immigrants or black people or others, it would be clearly condemned and stopped immediately. for some reason, under the guise of the conflict between israel and palestinian, it is okay for this to occur. when you are chanting from the river to the sea palestine will

be free, you're calling for the eradication of israel. i want the palestinian people to be free too from their oppressors. their oppressor is hamas. in 1969 the president of notre dame sent a letter to the faculty and students. he said, you have a right to protest, but the moment that protest turns violent, you will have 15 minutes to cease and desist. if you do not within 15 minutes, we will ask for your id card. upon presentation of the id card, you will be suspended. if you don't have an id card, you'll be arrested. if you still stay, within five minutes of that, you will be expelled and arrested. this participation trophy generation needs to be told no.

these demonstrators allowing anti-semitism to be held on their campuses need to be held accountable. the president of columbia has lost control of her campus and cannot ensure safety and security of every student, but especially jewish state of the unions who are under attack right now. >> it is interesting. after charlottesville and people saying there are good people on both sides, universal condemnation. here it's chants going on and on from the river to the sea and people talking about genocide and holding up signs that talk about the final solution. we're getting a lot of

correspondence from people who say we understand, but ignore the genocidal hatred toward jews. they want college administrators and jewish students to sort through genocidal chants as they go to class and be fine with it as it's part of a bigger cause. it looked a lot like january 6th. that was game, set, match for most of the people, for us and also people in the center and a lot of people on the left. now, it seems there are some people celebrating this as an act of civil disobedience, instead of the raw vandalism and

criminal activity that it is. even saying that, people go, oh, you don't understand what's going on and there's a bigger cause. no, no. as we said after january 6th, let's talk about it, let's debate about it and do it through democratic means and move towards a peaceful solution. people who were so offended about january 6th, rightly, and what donald trump said after charlottesville, rightly, are saying, yeah, but this is complicated. no. it's really not complicated. we understand, because we've been talking about the suffering in gaza of the civilians. we've been talking about illegal settlements on the west bank. we understand why palestinians would be upset about this and why they would want this issue

to be front and center. but there are people that are breaking the law and making codes on campuses, that are committing crimes. i don't think administrators should say, well, let's sort through this and maybe the crimes aren't so bad, maybe the ends justify the means. no. they didn't on january 6th. they don't here. >> it seems, sadly, to how fractured and tribal we are right now. you're right, january 6th was immediately met with condemnation. they aren't anymore. people in the rnc deemed it legitimate political discourse. trump stands with those he calls hostages that were locked up. there's a place for peaceful protests. there's not a place for some of the violence and horrible rhetoric that's coming with some

of these demonstrations. common moskowitz, there has been some pushback from this proposal saying it curtails free speech. i just want to get your response. >> this is a piece of legislation. you could always find a period or comma that you're unhappy with and find a reason to vote against it. we had 75 democrats vote present at one point against an anti-semitism resolution. there are different factions amongst my colleagues, but let's not lose sight of what's going on in the streets of america right now. and there is a double standard. jews don't fall into this little box of how we figure out who's a minority, who's not a minoritym.

you're seeing jewish students surrounded on campus, not being allowed to move or go into a building or take a test in their classroom, having to do it virtually. jewish students being singled out because they're jewish, not because of some israeli foreign policy. you have folks who want to pretend it's not happening, who want to silence it. jews are not saying you can't be critical of the israeli government without being anti-semitic. i think you can be critical of israel without being anti-semitic. the problem is they're not. they're the ones conflating this issue. go back to 1948, go back to poland. all zionists should die.

they're literally telling us exactly how they feel. we don't want to listen. what's happening in gaza is a separate issue. what's happening on college campuses is rooted in anti-semitism. >> jared and i yesterday went to the nova exhibition in lower manhattan. you saw the result of this level of hatred that is being taught, that was taught in schools in gaza and is being taught in schools here in america. we saw hundreds of innocent civilians killed simply because they were jewish and attended a music festival. what these children on this campus are doing, they are embracing the rhetoric and ideology of hamas. this is not a free speech issue. this is embracing hatred. i don't care whether it was in

charlottesville, whether it was in the halls of the capitol or on those college campuses. threats of violence or violence of any kind is wrong. it needs to be not only universally condemned. it needs to be prosecuted. >> where are the students who want to give the palestinians more rights, want to help the people in gaza? where are the students that are a part of that movement saying they want to eliminate the state of israel. i haven't seen that student. one has to wonder why we haven't seen those students saying don't mess up our movement. >> not only that, we're seeing members of congress go and embrace these students, embrace the ones saying death to

zionism. with respect to my colleague jerry nadler, he was a cosponsor of this bill in the 115th congress. i don't know why he's changed his opinion, but the reality is we need to define anti-semitism and enforce the law, period. >> thank you so much for coming on the show this morning, democratic congressman jared moskowitz and republican congressman mike lawlor. >> there's something else that goes beyond just stopping violent behavior on campus. this is going to be a multi-year effort. anti-semitism has spread rapidly across campuses, not just on the

quads and places we can see, but unfortunately the hearts of so many students. we've spoken with students that have been on campus who have basically said that jewish kids are afraid to go to class and other kids are told, if you're friends with jewish kids or you date jewish kids, you're part of the problem. the underlying anti-semitism there really does sound like germany. these are coming from some of the lead institutions. yes, we should clear the campuses of illegal activity and allow them to be open for all. but this is a multi-year effort.

anti-semitism has creeped in. you have to look at the administrators and say you have a responsibility to clean this up unless you're part of the problem. >> let's deal with the situation at columbia right now and colleges and universities across the country. joining us, david french. his latest article entitled "colleges have gone off the deep end, there is a way out." we've been talking about this to people from different colleges and universities. it's a precarious road to try and get back to baseline here on dealing with crime and hatred and anti-semitism at the start of it. in some ways, the toothpaste is out of the tube at columbia. the question is how to clean up the situation but how not to go

back and relive history and have violence ensue and get out of control. >> yeah. what's happened is we've seen a lot of these colleges in mass confusion between free speech and civil disobedience. what we saw was not civil disobedience. that means you're violating an unjust law and accepting the consequences. here they're violating just laws and refusing to accept the consequences. that's chaos. in the name of free speech, you have to end this chaos. when they occupy a quad, other voices can't use that quad. when they storm administrative buildings, you can't use that administrative building for academic instruction.

we have to restore the balance between free speech, peaceful civil disobedience and uphold the law and prevent chaos, or we have exactly what we have today. after the break, david is going to talk about the way out. i'm skeptical, but hopeful. coming up in a few moments, donald trump's criminal trial will continue as the banker is set to take the witness stand. e. diabetes can serve up a lot of questions. like what is your glucose and can you have more carbs? before you decide with the freestyle libre 3 system know your glucose and where it's heading no fingersticks needed. now the world's smallest and thinnest sensor sends your glucose levels directly to your smartphone. manage your diabetes with more confidence

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that's amazing doc. mobile savings are calling. visit xfinitymobile.com to learn more. doc? welcome back. sometimes we make it seem too easy on this show, saying, well, administrators should crack

down, do this, do that. you know, if you're at the university of florida or university of texas, that may be easier to do than at columbia, where you've got a bunch of faculty who are trying to sensor you. we certainly understand the president of columbia is walking a bit more of a tightrope than some southern state schools that i went to. if you're advising her on how to get out of this, what do you tell her, especially understanding that a lot of those students, if the 1968 protests are any indication, they want the police to come and drag them out. they want the confrontation. they want the pictures of victimhood. they want the pictures of state oppression.

they want that to help their cause. so understanding all of that, that storming into a building and dragging people out, that's the picture they want in the "new york times" tomorrow. so what do you do? >> one thing you have to understand, none of this is easy, but also there are legal obligations here that the university is under. title 6 of the civil rights act of 1964 says you have to protect students from harassment on the basis of national origin, race, color, et cetera. both the biden and trump administration before biden said this includes anti-semitic harassment. when you're not enforcing university policies so that jewish students are facing a problem where they don't feel safe on their own campus, you have to sit down and say you

have legal responsibilities to your jewish students. they have to be on campus free of harassment. there's still that legal obligation. now, it must be humane, it can't be over the top, but they have to obey the law here. that's one element. the other thing is, i think a lot of these folks want to hang on by their fingernails until the summer when the doors close and hope to come back fresh. it's not going to be any easier in the fall. we're going to have an election, and the gaza war may still be going on. that's an opportunity to reboot and say free speech, yes, but we're going to enforce restrictions. the first moment that first stake goes in the ground for a tent, it's coming back up immediately. we cannot permit a repeat of all of this.

the last thing i would say is these universities really need to rethink their stance towards protest and activism. chicago gets it right. they say we're going to allow all voices to protest. some of these schools have become so activist where the faculty are actually participating in the lawlessness. that is over the line. this is something that i think is sending a message to students that say the university is on their side as radical protesters, rather than being neutral and enforcing the rules in a way that all sides get to speak. it's not easy. >> no, it's not. david, thank you very much. >> david, stay with us.

>> we have a little bit more we want to talk to you about. it's related in a way. pretty incredible video we want to show you. it's an evangelical pastor delivering a forceful sermon denouncing what's become known as the trump bible as blasphemous and disgusting. in march, trump began selling a $64 god bless the usa bible complete with copies of the nation's founding documents. the sermon by reverend livingston in charlotte, north carolina, has gone viral, drawing millions of views so far. take a look. >> when you don't read and pray, you say, wow, there's a bible out now that includes the constitution and the bill of rights. isn't that wonderful? no!

no! it's disgusting! it's blasphemous. it's a ploy. are you kidding me? some of you are so encouraged by that? let me tell you something. the gospel is not an american gospel! it is the gospel of the lord jesus christ! [ applause ] >> but pastor, i bought the bible. really? you're telling me that you're encouraged because someone took a government u.s. constitution, a document that says we are of the people, by the people and for the people, the people, the people, the people. and you have put it right beside

the word of god, which is eternal, unchanging, which says of him, by him, through him, to him, from him are all things. and you're going to put those together and be happy about it? god forbid. now, you can get mad if you want to, but i'm going to tell you something. if you glory in that kind of thing, you don't have a prayer life. if you glory in that kind of mess, political mess, you do not know what the word of god says. >> let's bring in russell moore, the editor and chief of "christianity today." we also have still with us david french. russell, before anyone gets confused, this gentleman is not going to be a democratic delegate to the chicago democratic convention. his positions on abortion and lgbtq issues and many others would not come close to fitting

the democratic party's message on those beliefs. that said, that actually makes that a more steaming indictment among republican evangelicals, i think, what he just said. take us through what he just said and how it aligns with so much of what you believe and david and i believe. >> well, what he said shouldn't be controversial or even remarkable at all. it was an old-fashioned sermon against idolatry. it's the fact that we're living in such strange times that we even take notice of this. what i notice about this man is he's not scared. i don't know him, i've never heard him before, but there are so many people that are scared of their audiences that they're afraid of what's going to happen. i guarantee you this guy was

being stopped on the way out of the church to say how dare you criticize trump? he's acknowledging that this is not only destroying our politics, but also our religion. we have people selling products to us with our own sacred text mixing them in some political marketing campaign. that is doing something really sick to all of us. i think this pastor recognizes donald trump has a lot of branded properties with his name on them. the church of jesus christ shouldn't be one of them. >> what's so extraordinary about that clip is that we don't see more of it. what is your sense of why that is? is it a fear of the congregation in the same way that politicians fear trump voters? >> you have politicians who fear

their audiences across the board. in some ways, it is what we see with faculty members say to campus administrators you can't be screaming anti-semitic remarks because they don't want to lose their base. same thing happens, sadly, in churches. there are some people who don't want to get the angry conversations that come if they criticize a favored candidate in their churches. some other people think if we simply ride this out, it will go away. we're eight years in. it's not going away. we have church attendance plummeting. we have people willing to call themselves evangelicals plummeting. what's one of the reasons for that? people see it as just another form of politics. we have to have people willing to say, no, the gospel is actually more than that.

>> david french, i wonder if you're sensing what i'm sensing. again, i think i'm always a little too optimistic. but i'm hearing pastors preach sermons this year in churches that four years ago were all in. they may not say vote for donald trump, but they were all in. i'm hearing this message more from pastors in very conservative churches saying, let's do this. let's keep politics outside the church doors and let's just let in the gospel of jesus christ. let's focus on that for a while people. what a radical concept. i'm picking that up in some conservative places i'm going to church. i wonder if you are as well. >> a little bit, joe. i'm going to be a little less

optimistic. what i'm sensing more of is the people who are tired of the trump phenomenon are just dropping out, the exhaustion factor more than the pushback. i was so happy to see that clip. it was so powerfully stated. one reason it went so viral is because it is such the exception rather than a rule. i'm seeing people who are tired of trump who are much more apt to check out than rise up in opposition to it. they'll retreat kind of back into the bushes rather than actively oppose it. there's this sense of hopefully this will pass and be over. that's what i'm seeing. this clip, you never know what will make a person say enough is

enough. so every one of these clips where a person has the guts to stand up and say obviously true things so well, those things help. but as far as the math, when people are upset with trump, they're checking out, not opposing him as much, at least where i am. >> finally, i've got to say, unfortunately, too many pastors over the past seven years have been scared to tell their congregations the truth. they've told you that quietly. i've had pastors quietly telling me that. meanwhile just the hatred and venom inside of these churches is shocking. tim alberta told his story of being at his dad's funeral and the receiving line coming in and people attacking him for reporting on donald trump.

i told the story before about being at my mom's funeral shaking hands with people that i went to church with four times a week at first baptist church in pensacola, coming up to me saying they're playing for me and god is not pleased because i'm not supporting donald trump. my mom's casket two feet behind me. what do you say other than what i said to her, which is, i want you to know i will be praying for you tonight and praying that jesus christ will find his way back into your heart, because he's not there right now. it's shocking. this is straight out of jeremiah and the worshipping of idols. this is not about do you vote

for trump or biden. this is about what goes on inside of the church. is it an arm of a political party, or is it the altar of jesus christ? it's pretty simple, isn't it? >> it's pretty simple, but when a politician becomes the religion, then who's in and who's out is defined by how enthusiastically support the politician. that's what's so tragic about what's happening here. there have been a lot of pastors who have been profiles in courage, saying we're not going to hand our bibles over to a political movement. a lot of those pastors aren't in ministry anymore, precisely because of the backlash they've had. a lot of people who aren't on board are just checking out and leaving. that means people really have to stand up and say we have something we have to hand to our children and generations to

come. it can't be just another mess of political pottage. >> thank you both for coming on this morning. we're monitoring now the former president trump's criminal trial as it gets under way again this morning. the former president spoke, as he always does. he's in there now. we'll go live to the courthouse, next. now. we'll go live to the courthouse, next for twice as long as pepcid. get all-day and all-night heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day. choose acid prevention. choose nexium. why choose a sleep number smart bed? can it keep me warm when i'm cold? choose acid prevention. wait, no, i'm always hot. sleep number does that. can i make my side softer? i like my side firmer. sleep number does that. can it help us sleep better and better? please?

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breaking news just in in the trump hush-money trial. judge merchan ruled trump violated the gag order nine times. vaughn hillyard outside the courthouse. >> reporter: we're making our way through the order just which

youed -- issued by judge merchan alleging donald trump should be held in contempt for violating ten different times the gag order placed on him prohibiting him from attacking witnesses and jurors. what the judge has decided is that nine of the ten instances from social media posts of donald trump, he did, in fact, violate the gag order and is held in contempt, fined $1,000 for each of those posts. he says, in part, that this was willful violation by donald trump. he noted that several of these instances were reposts on his truth social account. donald trump's attorney todd blanch suggested that did not mean donald trump was making the statement. as part of this order, judge merchan said whether he added extra commentary or not, a

repost violates the gag order because it is a form of speech by donald trump himself. along with the fine, donald trump has been ordered to remove each of those nine posts on his social media account by the end of the day. there is also an amended gag order on donald trump that now also includes other counsel to the district attorney. so donald trump could attack alvin bragg if he so desired, but he is not able to personally attack others. we have seen him go on the offense against one of the prosecutors. donald trump has alleged that he is colluding with the biden administration by coming to new york. of course, there is no evidence of that. it is completely reasonable that an individual leaves one post with the federal government and joins a state entity here.

so for donald trump now having been found to have violated the gag order nine times. there are other allegations the d.a.'s office has brought against trump. the judge will hear those at 9:30 a.m. on thursday morning. >> so this was seen as most as a warning shot by judge merchan. this was $9,000, obviously walking around money for donald trump, but it sends a message >> the penalties could escalate and trump could face potentially a night in jail if held d face py a night in jail if hel

moments ago and looked very -- i don't want took assign too much personality to sihim, but did n look like he was in a pleasant mood here this morning. he railed against the fact he's got to bens here again, suggestg that he is being removed from theei campaign trail, of course. over the course of those last four days. saturday, sunday and monday. he had no campaign, no courtroom obligations but chose not to campaign. it wasbuch melania's birthday, flew to florida for the weekend. this forth donald trump is now e third week ofal this trial, the second week of testimony. it is not clear who the next witnesses areth going to be. it could very well be the likes of karen mcdougal or hope hicks, gary farro, the first republic banker who worked with michael cohen to set up the bank accounts there. he's on the stand beginning this morning. but for donald trump,st of courp

this is only wearing on, and we are looking well into june in which this trialll is likely to continue. >> we're also seeing that the judge hasre ruled that donald trump can go to his son barron's graduation on may 17th. vaughn, i'm curious, you might have said it and i missed it, but what else did the judge say about the gag order. i knowab there is another heari. but what if he does it again? were there any warnings moving forward that the consequences could be worse? >> reporter: yeah, actually, i was just got to that part of the order here at the very end, and i'll just read it here for everybody ift i may. quote, what $1,000 may suffice in most instances to protect the dignity of the judicial system to compel respect for its mandates and to punish the offender for disobeying a courts order, it unfortunately will not achieve the desired result in those siinstances where the contender caner easily afford sh a fine. in those circumstances, it would be preferable if the court could

impose a fine more commensurate with the wealth of the contempter. that might be a $2500 fine, in other cases it might be $150,000 fine. and here's the final line, because this court is not cloaked with such discretion, it must therefore consider whether in some instances jail may be a necessary punishment. those are thece words of judge merchan on this tuesdayof morni, mika. >> okay. well, that's absolutely clear. thank you very much, vaughn hillyard, for thath, reporting. all right, the criminal trial of donald trump and new york city continues. and we'll be back in just a moment with more "morning joe." moment with more "morning joe.

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don't wait! call, click or visit an xfinity store today. here it is. we're describing earlier as perhaps a warning shot to donald trump. we know $9,000 is not going to make a dent. we take this seriously, if you read through the order, judge merchan does hold out the possibility of what he calls incarceration. >> yes, these kinds of punishments are incremental. they must be. they start with a verbal reprimand, then you get these relatively low financial penalties and a lot of people said, hey, that's not really going to deter donald trump. yes, but it is the first rung of the ladder. at the end of the ladder is incarceration. that really is the ultimate punishment for all contempt. the court has the inherent authority to enforce its own rules and this is how it does it. >> so, if that's the ultimate punishment, how do we get there? what is your sense, from your experience, what would take a judge to eventually go, you know, hey, there is a long way from $1,000 to a night in jail. how do you get from one to the other? >> it a regular defendant it is

not as hard. if you're any of the judges in any of donald trump's cases, this is the worst possible outcome. you do not want to be the judge that makes the decision to try to incarcerate the former president. number one, he's accompanied by secret services. and in addition, number two, it is going to be a hotly contested, hotly political thing and here's why. all gag orders are arguably suspect because they crash together both the constitutional concerns of the first amendment, the sixth amendment, right of the public to a fair trial, and the judge's responsibility to control his own courtroom and protect jurors and protect witnesses. >> just one other note too, the judge said the reposts were in fact violations of the gag order. trump's defense team tried to suggest reposting someone else's thoughts is not a violation. in this judge merchan writes, defendant is hereby warned that the court will not tolerate

continued willful violations of its lawful orders and that if necessary and appropriate under the circumstances it will impose an incoursetory punishment. so there you have it. how does this impact now the remaining seconds here, danny, the rest of the trial going forward? you expect to see donald trump may change his behavior? >> he's going to have to. it really depends on looking into the mind of trump and saying do i want to make this a symbolic issue and push the point of incarceration. i think he's going to tone it down knowing they have begun the process and the process ends with jail cell. >> we will see. does he want a shot of himself in jail to raise money? that's always a possibility. msnbc legal analyst danny cevallos, danny, thank you so much. and we'll now turn over the coverage to ana cabrera. right now on "ana cabrera reports," we're following two