tonight on "the reidout" -- >> i love to talk to you people. i love to say everything that's on my mind. but i'm restricted because i have a gag order.

i'm not sure that anybody has ever seen anything like this before. >> day two of testimony in trump's hush money election interference trial. and the judge has already had it with trump and his legal team. meanwhile, i was in the courtroom as the first witness, david pecker, gave riveting testimony about his interactions with trump. i will tell you what i saw and heard. and that is where we begin tonight. with the historic first ever trial of a former american president, as donald trump spent a second day in court before a attan jury. it was a day that i can say i witnessed personally as i took my turn to be at the courthouse, and has been the case so far, there were no throngs of trump supporters outside raising hell on his behalf. we notice this one guy who had a crucifix and rang a loud bell while wearing a t-shirt declaring the three greatest u.s. presidents were george

washington, john f. kennedy, and donald trump. other than that, for all the giant barricades erected downtown, the largest numbers present were police officers and reporters plus a couple adorable middle schoolers who came down to see the events. inside the courthouse, i started as team overflow room and through the endless grace of lisa reuben moved to the main courtroom for the second half of the day. while i have written a book about donald trump called the man who sold america for which i interviewed many a trump person and former campaign staffer, et cetera, today was the first time i have actually been in the same room with donald trump. the tormentor of black teenagers like myself in the late 1980s when the central park trial took place in the very same courthouse. what i can tell you is he's taller than you might expect and walks in a gait that is shufflier than you would think. and he's definitely a scowler. although who wouldn't be scowling facing 34 criminal counts in a case that could in theory send you to prison.

i can also confirm he has a strangely orange hue, although lighter orange now that he's out of the florida sun and away from the tanning beds, and whoever does his hair masked the thinning in the back and on top with deft cantilevering. but how today started was not so much about donald trump the man as it was about donald trump the obsessive, repeated social media user. the first two hours of the day, without the jury present, was a battle between trump's lead defense attorney, todd blanche, and judge juan merchan, about whether trump had on ten separate occasions violated an april 1st gag order. by posting and reposting about potential witnesses in this case, including michael cohen, stormy daniels and even former new york prosecutor mark pomeranz, who apparently trump wants to see jailed. the posts including amplifying comments from michael avenatti who you might remember represented stormy daniels before she fired him for

apparently stealing from her and other clients. something for which he remains in prison, though he somehow is also still doing interviews. and also for amplifying this segment on fox, attacking the jurors in this case on april 17th. >> they are trying to rig this jury. they are catching undercover liberal activists lying to the judge. >> yeah, no, they're not. judge merchan proceeded to scold todd blanche for not being able to explain to him how trump's posts were responses to political attacks. it's like watching the kid who didn't do his homework get owned by the college professor. when it was over, todd blanche was moved to second chair. it was on to business, part two of the questioning of david pecker. pecker, who owned american media inc. in the early '90s was a smooth talking silver haired man

who seems to have almost idolized donald trump. he described him as someone americans respected as the boss on "the apprentice," which was also the way michael cohen referred to trump. pecker said the trump covers were consistently the "national enquirer's" best seller. the other covers that sold a lot of enquirer magazines on the supermarket news stands, covers featuring stories about bill clinton's womanizing and hillary clinton enabling him. making the deal with michael cohen, something he says happened in august 2015 with cohen and then campaign communications director hope hicks in the room, was a win-win. the enquirer would publish negative stories about trump's opponents which they did repeatedly, particularly when ben carson, ted cruz, and marco rubio started rising in the polls in the spring of 2016. at the same time, running positive stories featuring donald trump as the ideal next president of the united states, which they also did throughout that year. pecker was personally invited by

cohen to trump's presidential announcement in trump tower. and he hoped to financially benefit from how many magazines the pro-trump and anti-trump competitor issues would sell. a total win-win. he also testified that once trump announced his presidential bid, that he was in constant communication with michael cohen, as pecker and a small group of ami editors kept their eyes and ears pealed for stories that could be damaging to trump so they could catch them and kill them before they were published anywhere else. at least before the election. and one by one, the prosecutor walked david pecker through the deals that they cut with dino sajudin, the doorman who claimed to have information about a trump love child with his hispanic former housekeeper, which pecker paid $30,000 for, despite his team vetting it and determining it was 1,percent untrue. yet, they signed a deal with

mr. sajudin that included a $1 million penalty for breaking it. which they let sajudin out of in december 2016. after the election. the day ended on the deal ami cut with playboy model karen mcdougal, who got $150,000 after pitching a story of her own. a year-long affair with trump, which she alleges and he denies. today, absolutely felt like a day to set up cohen's own testimony and to make the point which they did with exhibits on the big screens in the courtroom that what pecker is bringing to the table is not just stories about his favorite tabloid cover subject but also physical receipts. and it's only just the beginning, as the prosecution hasn't even gotten to the stormy daniels part of the story yet. joining me is neal katyal, former acting solicitor general and msnbc analyst. katie phang, trial attorney and host of the katie phang show right here on msnbc, who was at the courtroom with me today.

and brian stelter, vanity fair special correspondent and author of the book of network lies. thank you all for being here. because you are at a disadvantage, our friend neal, i'm going to go to you first. what were you impressions today? >> first, i want to say katie's coverage of the trial live has been so spectacular. and it's really criminal that the american public can't see it for themselves. katie is the next best thing. and i just have to really, my hat is off to her for translating all of the antics in the courtroom and everything. to me, the big headline is the loss of credibility that trump's lawyer todd blanche had when he was trying to defend what donald trump was doing with his gag order. the gag order forbids trump from commenting on jurors or perspective jurors. trump clearly violated it, so what did his lawyer todd blanche do? deny everything. and deny everything so much so that the judge said, you have broken your reputation with me.

and credibility is the currency, joy, of lawyers, as katie knows. a judge should only look at the facts and law in the case, not a defendant's wealth or status. the lawyers, the key part of persuasion in that. this is all foreign to donald trump who traded in power and status his whole life, but when his lawyer has lost credibility with the court, that's a very serious statement that doesn't bode well for trump's legal team, bodes very poorly for donald trump because lawyers are like nuclear weapons. if one side has a good one, the other side has to get one. >> there are a couple lawyers on the jury, too. i want to cosign what neal said about you, katie phang. you're an exquisite attorney and have been doing a fantastic job of translating this madness on air. we were buddies today in team overflow. tell me, because it was an interesting sort of -- you were telling me the names, making sure i knew who everybody was. it was interesting when he

seemed to do such a bad job, todd blanche actually got moved out of the first chair. he was really convening with trump, and it wasn't happy if trump was happy. >> to neal's point, it is such a tragedy the american people can't see the dynamic inside there, but more specifically at counsel's table for donald trump. the level of disinteresting, the inattention, the perhaps sleeping going on. things like this, he's not even looking at his lawyer when his lawyer is making arguments about his violating a gag order that could put him in yale. wouldn't you have interest if you might be looking at incarceration for 30 days. susan necklace who is according to everybody, people have known her for decades, she's a true criminal defense lawyer, in the sense of she really believes everybody deserves a defense. but she parks herself the furthest away physically from donald trump. it's almost like she wants to be as far removed --

>> she was leaning away from him. >> so for todd blanche to try to reestablish, hugo talked about this last hour, this kind of buddy buddy kind of energy with donald trump, i thought that was very telling because it was sheer humiliation. i mean, blanche had nothing left to say. and it's one thing to be -- it's one thing for the judge to admonish you if you're in your zealousness to represent, you argue too far, but what's was humiliating, he had no evidence, no defense. >> no argument. >> no arguments. that is the problem when you're a lawyer. you're representing a client who is looking at 34 felonies and you have no evidence to refute it, and you take an position that is hidockulous. judge merchan said, oh, it suddenly appeared? i feel like when this is your alamo, you want to die on this hill as a lawyer? it doesn't make sense. but luckily, in some ways it didn't happen in front of the jury. because jurors sometimes can

feel badly for lawyers. sometimes -- >> katie was starting to say, he really looked pathetic and fidgety and uncomfortable. he didn't seem comfortable in hiskin today at all. >> jurors can feel badly about this lawyer getting yelled at by the judge. the other good way, it sets a tone that merchan is not taking it. >> merchan really comes across as just this very gentile, kind professor who is over it because you didn't do your homework. let's talk, i want to talk about david pecker a little bit. i'm going to call on your media expertise. he did a thing that they don't even normally do in checkbook journalism as he called it. buying really juicy stories and then not publishing them. and he even said in court, which i found kind of stunning, with the karen mcdougal story, they were like, let's buy it. we want to use it, just after the election. we want to even use the story about the guy who claims there's an illegitimate son. they just didn't want to use it until after the election.

he seemed to help that part of the case. >> this idea of checkbook journalism, it's a contradiction. there are no checkbooks in real journalism. we're not out there paying for stories in the real journalism world. but it's specifically because donald trump can't exist in a real journalism world. he doesn't want pesky fact checkers, people telling him he's lying. he's creating this alternative media universe. the enquirer was the key example in 2015 and 2016. he created, built up with his friend david pecker this alternative system to get out his news to his voters. we're seeing it be dissected now in real time in this trial. this idea of friends of pecker, fops, a friend of pecker, so trump gets a free ride. it is nothing to do with journalism. in fact, david pecker is revealing himself not to be a news man. he's an advertiser, a marketering, and his product was donald trump. >> when he gave him something about an estimate of $3 million a month of free advertising. he created a magazine that was a

quarterly magazine that's literally just about donald trump. he was talking about it in these weird reverential terms. he was asked what can you do to help the campaign? he's oh, i know what i can do. we're going to find all these negative stories. >> your, quote, eyes and ears. and michael cohen was the go between. to your point, this is setting up the cohen testimony. >> how is that a crime? that's what the prosecutor has to prove. catch and kill is unseemly, gross, but it's not illegal. >> that's why the new york statute that was previewed previously in the motions that were dealt with prior to this case surviving the motions to dismiss, because you know, this is important. trials don't just materialize overnight. there was litigation. there was motion practice that happened that this indictment survived because a lot of people want to say there's nothing here. there's no there there. donald trump whipping out like a toddler, look at all of my friends saying there's no crime here. well, jonathan turley is not the

gold standard for that. so what happened is when you heard the testimony through pecker that there was a conspiracy, and the conspiracy existed with the defendant and michael cohen, and now david pecker, and you heard that the purpose of all of these catch and kill were to insure there was going to be nothing that was put out that was going to be negative or negatively impacting that campaign, that is a crime in new york. it's not the nondisclosures, to your point. it's the actual trying to influence it. it's what are you trying to conceal? what are you trying to hide? and that is exactly what they're trying to hide. >> this relationship is cozier than i knew. i reported on the enquirer ten years ago, but i'm learning new details. there's new information about just how cozy it was. >> and neal, you know, not to put too fine a point on it, but ami made a nonprosecution deal

in 2018 in which they explicitly admitted what they did was a crime. they admitted they knew they were breaking campaign finance laws, they knew there was a limit on campaign contributions and they exploded through it. if he admitted to a crime, and michael cohen was convicted of a crime, kind of hard to say the only person who didn't commit a crime here is trump. >> that's exactly right, joy. and like what the testimony today underscores, the same thing as that 2018 plea deal. like ami and the "national enquirer" where journalistic integrity goes to die basically. that's not always a crime. if you're not running for president, like trump was paying the "national enquirer" perhaps to squelch stories about his girlfriend when he wasn't running, that's one thing. if you're running for the presidency of the united states, you do so against a backdrop of a whole series of laws passed to insure that the american voters have transparency in the process.

you can't get secret in kind campaign contributions. i mean, imagine if joe biden had "the washington post" basically buying up all the stories about his son and under biden so they could never be run, catching and killing them. obviously, we would all be up in arms the same way as the new york district attorney is here. and transparency really demands this prosecution. i don't think that the d.a. had a choice at this point when you have someone who is spitting on our campaign finance laws. >> you know, what that says to me, brian, all of the reasons that donald trump was so much better off not running for president, because he could have kept doing a lot of the gross, unseemly things that he likes to do, and none of it would have necessarily run him up against the law. because he could have done these catch and kills, but doing it for a campaign is where he messed up. >> and david pecker would be better off as well.

>> everyone he knows. >> david pecker loved his life. his proximity to power. doing favors for his friends, punishing his enemies, putting nasty pictures of hillary clinton on the front of his magazine. he's lost the enquirer. he's now testifying against his longtime buddy. we anyhow how this is getting to donald trump? the lies he's telling today about the crowds outside. i was on the outside in the park today. >> how big? >> i saw two orthree trump fans. tonight on truth social, trump said thousands are being turned away from the armed camp. he's telling you not to believe your own eyes and ears. it's so telling that he's obsessed with this protester, lack of protester that he's claiming he has lots of fans who want to be there. they're just not allowed into the park. >> they can't get on the subways, buses, trains. i saw that empty park when we walked in. >> a beautiful day in manhattan. people are out walking their dogs. >> the bell ringer guy was there. and he was passionate. >> he'll be back tomorrow and

thursday. >> more cowbell. >> brian stelter, thank you very much. neal and katie are sticking around for much more on day two of testimony in trump's hush money trial, including the judge's warning to trump's lawyers that they are indeed losing credibility with the court. stay right there.

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so, if you could change the price, change the name! it's not a lock, i know a lock. so how can we undo the damage? we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that's uncalled for. neal katyal and katie phang are back with me. let's talk more about kind of

how things looked in the courtroom, katie, because we were just talking about this off set. and neal, i want to bring you in on this too. you said you wished cameras were in the courtroom. sitting in that courtroom, one of the things that really struck me was how alone donald trump looked, sitting there with that back bench behind him empty and the secret service in the one behind him, but no family there, no supporters there. he looked smaller. he looked less like the sort of big important man that he pretends to be. and it almost feels like the court system in some ways is protecting him from that image by allowing him to walk out to cameras and project whatever image he wants to project. katie, you first, and then neal. >> it's -- i struggle because i think in a blanket way you need to have cameras. i think sunshine is the best disinfectant, and transparency is what the american public always deserves because you need to be able to see the hypocrisy

going on. for example, when they show the negative headlines about ted cruz and marco rubio that the "national enquirer" did to benefit the trump campaign, and i want to ring that bell over and over again, the hypocrisy is, it's bad for marco rubio and ted cruz according to the fake news headlines in the enquirer to have mistresses and have porn stars and to have all of this illicit stuff happen but it's okay for donald trump. like a badge of honor for him. you want to be able to be offended as well when you see that exhibit and look at him and think, you know what, no, you don't get to get away with that too. america doesn't get to see that. what happens is donald trump goes to truth social unfettered and says lies. he actually promotes lies and tells lies. so whether you like him or not, you should be able to see him in his natural habitat. and the natural habitat of him is small, shriveled, old, tired. not sympathetic, but just alone.

>> and you know, neal, also to hear the judge, because this is -- it's very instructive to actually see the court case take place. and to hear the judge go back and forth with donald trump's lawyer about this gag order, the thing you pointed out. because you're seeing a lawyer kind of shrink before your eyes because he had no arguments. but no one got to see it but those of us sitting there. >> i agree, joy. these courtrooms are the american public's courtrooms. we pay for them with our taxpayer dollars. and the idea that, like this is all going on in a closed proceeding that fortunately we're lucky we have people like katie there who is translate what's going on for us, but there's no substitute for seeing it with their own eyes, particularly when the country is as divided as it is about all of these issues surrounding donald trump. and i think both sides would benefit from the airing and public transparency that would otherwise occur. i remember when i was special

prosecutor in the george floyd murder. we had initially opposed cameras and a televised trial. we were wrong. and the judge ruled against us, and he was right, even though there had never been a trial in minnesota televised up to that point. but what that did was allow the american public confidence around the verdict. so much so that we didn't have the riots and all the other stuff that people were predicting because people could see the trial with their own eyes. as for what's going on today with donald trump being alone in the courtroom, you know, i think that's at least in part a product of his criminal behavior. the people who would have ordinarily been there, michael cohen, allen weisselberg, they have been indicted or put in jail or now testify against him. david pecker is another one. so you know, everything trump touches, you know, it's kind of the anti-midas touch. and we're seeing that play out in real time in the courtroom. i really do wish this american public could see it.

>> i agree. it was really instructive to be there. and speaking of michael cohen, he's been on this show dozens of times, a lot, and one thing that struck me, he told me, he told this audience, he told msnbc's audience the same story for years. and now, everything he said you have david pecker today backing him up. to a point, i mean, literally, he's been telling this story consistently. and so now what's happened is he's already been backed up by david pecker who was the other person in the room making this deal who said yeah, we did do a catch and kill deal. yeah, it was about the election. michael cohen had a campaign email even though he was not on the campaign. no reason for him to have a campaign email. and david pecker said, you can release these salacious stories that would have sold lots of magazines but only after the election. >> one of the most amazing things is we have now been introduced to the conspiracy so early in the prosecution's case. sometimes there's a wind-up to the pitch.

sometimes you wait through a couple of witnesses before you kind of get to the meat on the bone of the conspiracy and of the crime. yet david pecker within just a few hours has explained with such clarity even for a guy who's been around for a long time, the long time friend for decades. david pecker even still showed respect to donald trump today. >> respect? he seemed reverential toward him. >> to hear it come from someone who says david pecker said yeah, we sat there in trump tower and agreed to the following, and yes, allen weisselberg was a part of it. so matter of fact, in a way that lends credibility. that's the critical thing. neal and i and others who have tried cases, a witness's credibility is always going to be squarely in the province of the jury. the judge doesn't determine the witness's credibility. for the jury to be hearing total and complete corroboration by david pecker and as well as seeing, because we're visual creatures. when you see the exhibits and

see the amendment to dino sajudin's source documents to silence him and you see, what do you mean it's going to be extended to perpetuity where you're not going to be able to air it for a while, that stuff is powerful. >> and charge of a million dollars if he takes that story anywhere else only to poof make it go away in december of 2016 after the election. things that make you go hmm. neal katyal, katie phang, you're great. thank you very much. up next, newly unsealed documents reveal trump, the aforementioned trump was told by his own associate to turn over everything he took from the white house or he would risk indictment. but he's donald trump, so clearly he didn't listen. that's next. en that's next. voices of people with cidp: cidp disrupts. cidp derails.

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yesterday in florida, trump friendly judge aileen cannon released 400 pages of unsealed documents that shed new light on how the department of justice built its rock solid case against trump for stealing classified documents. one those 400 pages is a stunning fbi interview from a high ranking trump world official who was so afraid of reprisal that they requested that interview not be recorded. what we also learned is that pretty much everyone in trump's world knew that he had taken classified documents, and that he should just hand them over and hand them all back. all 50 boxes that this official believed trump had taken with him. in late 2021, this official told the former president whatever

you have, give it all back. the response was, we'll check things out. when that didn't happen, trump allies turned to his children to get him to to the right thing. there are issues with it boxes. they belong to the government. talk to your dad about giving them back. it's not worth the aggravation. this same official flew to florida, drove to mar-a-lago, and impressed upon trump who was dressed in his golf khakis and entertaining a young female fan, that whatever you have, give everything back. let them come here and get everything. don't give them a noble reason to indict you because they will. joining me now is nick ackerman, former watergate assistant special prosecutor and former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. nick, some people just can't learn. they have to feel. >> no, but this is typical donald trump. there is nothing new here. the fact that he was telling walt nauta that he would pardon him, even if he lied to the fbi,

don't worry about it. hang tight. i'm going to pardon you. we have seen that story before. we saw it with roger stone. who the judge in that case when he was convicted found that he was covering up for donald trump. and lo and behold, what happens? he gets pardoned by donald trump. you have paul manafort who was supposedly going to cooperate until donald trump started dangling a pardon in front of him. paul manafort could have broken open this entire russian investigation. he knew where the bodies were buried, he knew about the russian agent that he was dealing with and providing detailed information about various parts of the battleground states, in order to microtarget voters. he wound up clamming up, and low and behold, he was pardoned. so when walt nauta listens to donald trump, he sees a history of an individual that's covered a few people's backs.

and this is all part of donald trump's pattern that he's been conducting since he got into office. >> there's something about all of this that feels very mauf yauso. >> very mafioso. it definitely is. it's like you have to pledge allegiance to the cappo, and everything is an idea, like the futile system of providing benefits to the futile people out there, the serfs so they do the work for you. they'll take care of destroying tapes so that the government doesn't get evidence of people moving boxes in and out. i mean, it's like he is the guy in charge, and what he says goes. and you have two people that are now defendants in this case in florida that it really explains why they haven't cooperated. >> i have a question, because it's very clear that the judge in this case wants the case to go away.

i don't know what he promised her other than maybe a supreme court seat. she's not letting the case go forward. could the case against walt nauta and other fall guys go forward without trump? >> it could, but that doesn't make any sense because in a way, these two people really are kind of the albatross around trump's neck. they're the ones that did all of the bidding. >> the dirty work. we have seen that in the michael cohen situation. he did the dirty work. he didn't sleep with stormy daniels. he took out the risk, took a risk of his own self, everything he did he did for trump. he did go to prison. in this case, is there some chance that walt nauta and the other fall guys in the case will go to prison and let trump skate? >> they may go to prison but i don't think trump is going to skate. >> if the case ever goes to trial. >> if it goes to trial, that's right. i think the government is in a weird position right now because right now, they know that the judge is backed off those crazy jury instructions that she asked

them to do. which really the most bizarre thing i have ever seen. and they're kind of betwixted and between as to whether or not to take her up on appeal. >> let me ask you about today's michael cohen hearing. you were saying there are things in that transcript that people have not really highlighted. tell me one of those things. >> everybody now has access to these transcripts. they all went up on the -- >> in the new york hush money election interference case. >> they're all up there. you go through these things, there's one little piece of evidence that just hit me between the eyes. that's the tape recording that michael cohen made of donald trump talking about karen mcdougal and the setup to pay her and to buy back from pecker, from the "national enquirer," the rights that they got from karen mcdougal. and i always wondered, why the heck did michael cohen ever make that tape recording of donald trump and not tell him about it? we know now if you look at the

opening of the d.a.'s opening in there, it's because michael cohen wanted to use that tape to convince pecker that donald trump was actually interested in paying that $150,000 to take back the rights to karen mcdougal's story. >> right. >> so michael cohen was not telling his boss what he was doing. yet he was playing the tape for pecker. so what you've got is, you have pecker who is going to identify the tape at trial. you have michael cohen who is going to identify the tape. and the tape is none other than donald trump who is right in the middle. so if there's ever a question about credibility here, that blows their argument about credibility right out of the water. >> nick ackerman, such a valuable friend. coming up next, huns of students and now some college professors have been arrested as pro-palestinial protests have only grown on college campuses throughout the country.

despite pressure from members of congress and people in the media. we'll talk to a jewish professor at columbia university who participated in yesterday's protest. we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ i got the power of 3. i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. i'm under 7. ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events such as stroke, heart attack, or death in adults also with known heart disease. i'm lowering my risk. adults lost up to 14 pounds. i lost some weight. ozempic® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. don't take ozempic® if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if allergic to it. stop ozempic® and get medical help right away if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, or an allergic reaction. serious side effects may include pancreatitis. gallbladder problems may occur. tell your provider about vision problems or changes. taking ozempic® with a sulfonylurea or insulin may increase low blood sugar risk. side effects like nausea, vomiting,

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if you have an eye infection, eye pain or redness, or allergies to eylea hd, don't use. eye injections like eyla hd may cause eye infection, separation of the retina, or rare but severe swelling of blood vessels in the eye. an increase in eye pressure has been seen. there's an uncommon risk of heart attack or stroke associated with blood clots. the most common side effects were blurred vision, cataract, corneal injury, and eye floaters. and there's still so much to see. if you are on eylea or a similar type of treatment, ask your retina specialist about eylea hd today, for the potential for fewer injections. the israel/hamas war continues to fuel a national debate over free speech and student demonstrations amid growing unrest over the fate of palestinians in gaza. dozens of universities across the country are seeing pro-palestinian imcampments pop

up in the wake of columbia university siccing the police on the encampment there. nine university of minnesota students were arrested for setting up tents, as were several yale students. at new york university, a demonstration monday night turned chaotic with the university calling the police to assist with dispersing the growing crowd. more than 100 people were taken into custody, including students and professors. and today, more than 100 pro-palestinian protesters gathered in washington square park to show solidarity with students and faculty who were arrested. columbia university says classes will now be hybrid until the end of the spring semester after 100 of its students were arrested last week. joining me now is marianne hirsh, professor of english and cooperative literature at columbia university, and professor at the institute for women, gender, and sexuality. thank you for being here. >> thank you for inviting me.

>> what's so strange about what's happening at your university, at columbia, is peaceful protesters got the copped sicced on them while the mad people who are outside of campus screaming at jewish people, screaming epithets and becoming violent and some people think might be plants, they're not getting the cops sicced on them. why? >> well, the university only organizes its own space, and what happened was that the gates were open and cops were invited into the university to disrupt the peaceful protest by students. what happens outside the gates is new york city. >> but it sounds to me what's happening on these university campuses is students have fewer free speech rights than whoever wants to show up outside. there is this attempt to kind of bully college students that you're thinking wrong about what's happening in gaza. we're just going to punish you until you stop thinking that way. >> it's a weaponization of anti-semitism under the guise of

security and safety for students who say they're feeling uncomfortable, and it rests on the profound misunderstanding of what anti-semitism actually is, very painful for somebody who is jewish and has studied anti-semitism during her career. i think the impression is that if you just -- any pro-palestinian or any palestinian narrative is a threat to the israeli state. that any kind of criticism of the state of israel's actions, violent actions in gaza, is anti-semitic. it's not. it's criticizing a state, not criticizing an identity or faith. >> this is the thing, that in theory, if israel is a secular state and is a state with multiple religions inside it, there are christian people living there, jewish people living there, muslim people living there, then criticizing that country and its policies, how that has become translated even for some in the media here

as it's inherently anti-semitic. you must approve the way israel is conducting the war in gaza, you must approve every single killing. it must be approved or you're anti-semitic, it doesn't make sense to me. >> it feels like a threat to jews where it's actually a criticism of the actions of a state. >> of a country. so how do we translate -- i mean, you have this metastasizing movement. many of the people manching are jewish themselves. young people who are jewish. even their organizations are being told they're anti-semitic. >> they have been suspended at columbia. jewish voice for piece is a student organization of jews. many jewish students are in the encampment at columbia. last night, i was very honored to be invited to a to be invited as a faculty member within the pro- palestinian encampment. it was a beautiful ceremony with lots of other students included. we chanted in hebrew and

yiddish. no one was attacking us. we all felt safe. >> why do you suppose the leadership at columbia and other schools are capitulating so dramatically in advance to peaches -- to people and capitulating to certain donors who don't like the general liberal vibe at places like columbia and they want to shift it to the right by bullying students. why are they capitulating to that? >> it is a plot to undermine universities, to humiliate university presidents and, you know, the elite. there is a lot at stake. there is funding at stake. if these universities lose federal funding, that would be a complete disaster. i think there is a lot of intimidation and bullying by the committee, but we have other representatives and i am afraid that, you know, our mayor called these protests

anti-semitic. president biden called the protests anti-semitic, so they are all resting on the same kind of misunderstanding of what anti-semitism is. i think they want to protect merchan. -- to protect jews. they want to score points. >> what you think president biden and the mayor and the governor, you're right, they are jumping on the bandwagon to essentially write off hundreds of thousands of young people who are simply against a war that they find distasteful because children are dying. how can that be wrong, even with democrats jumping on this bandwagon? >> they find it unbearable. there is a movement of well- funded campaigns to convince democrats as well as republicans -- >> absolutely. >> that this is anti-semitic. that these actions are hurting

members of the jewish community in this country. there is a long history of anti- semitism for 5000 years. this is true. there are anti-semitic acts in our country, but also all kinds of other bias and racial persecution that, right now, our universities are not doing very much to protect muslim students and palestinian students from attacks on them. >> i appreciate you. it has been wonderful meeting you. thank you so much. before we go to a break, i want to remind you, four years ago today this happened. >> and then i see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute and is there anyway that we can do something like that by injection, inside or almost a cleaning. it gets in the lungs and does tremendous, so if you are interested -- >> you are definitely better off

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they are keeping me in a courtroom, freezing, by the way. in a courtroom all day long while he is out campaigning. he's out campaigning and i am here in the courtroom, sitting here. all day long. >> we've got a telling split screen today marking this

year's election. trump in court, biden on the campaign trail. the president is in florida, giving his first major speech on abortion since trump suggest the issue be left to the states and he is calling out trump's role as the main architect of this post-roe america. >> trump bragged how proud he was to get rid of roe v. wade. he took credit for it. he said there has to be punishment for women exercising reproductive freedom. his words, not mine. he described the dobbs decision is a miracle. maybe it is coming from that bible he is trying to sell. i almost wanted to buy one just to see what is in it. >> biden's visit comes as florida joins arizona as an epicenter of the battle over abortion restrictions. florida's six week abortion ban is poised to go into effect one week from tomorrow and florida

voters are gearing up for a november ballot measure that would enshrine abortion rights in its constitution. if you take a step back and look at these maps, you will note a striking similarity between states trump. in 2020 and states where abortion is banned or unavailable. and since the roe decision, regardless of how the states voted in the past, abortion is a losing issue for trump. the latest poll shows biden leading by a 15 point margin on which candidate would be better on this issue. which, surprise, surprise, also happens to be a top issue on voters minds. if the former president is stuck in court, spending more and more donor money on legal fees, it is worth knowing how much abortion is raising the stakes for the november election and creating the potential to flip the electoral map and it is not just florida that is in play. that is tonight's "the reidout." "all in with