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good to be with you. i'm katy tur. it was an explosive day in criminal court today. donald trump's one time ally and friend, david pecker, laid out in detail what he, michael cohen, and donald trump agreed to do to protect his campaign. and then how they did it. describing multiple conversations and multiple moments of the campaign on multiple topics including times when pecker directly advised trump saying quote, i think you should buy it, about karen mcdougle's story, to which trump responded he would think about it according to pecker and have cohen call him back. the question for jurors was any of this illegal. pecker is the man at the center of trump's catch and kill scheme

in the run up to the 2016 election and he could be a more essential witness to cohen. because pecker is corroborating when cohen has long alleged. that there was a 2015 meeting in trump tower where he, pecker and trump hatched a plan to protect trump and hurt his opponents in his campaign for president. today, pecker called it a quote agreement among friends saying i would run or post positive stories about mr. trump and publish negative stories about his opponents. so what will trump's lawyers do with pecker on cross-examination? he did give them at least one opening. and what about their client, the former president? what he did in court today and what he did outside of it that could put him in contempt. judge merchan appeared to be fed up this morning. what he said to todd blanche. joining us now, lisa rubin. so, lisa, i call it an explosive day in court because pecker goes

into great detail about the relationship he had with michael cohen and what he believed michael cohen was doing. and also not to mention the relationship he had with donald trump and direct conversations he had with trump about what they were doing in the 2016 campaign. >> i think david pecker is a far more important witness that many people appreciate. not only because he can speak as you just noted to the formation of the conspiracy that the d.a.'s office wants the jury to buy into, but because at multiple points in time, he talked to trump directly including with respect to whether it was worth it to buy karen mcdougle's story at a point in time that enquirer ceo and chief content officer, dylan howard, had already flown to california to interview mcdougle about her story. decided essentially that she was credible after which point trump calls pecker and said what do you think we should do.

i also thought that it was a fascinating introduction to the world of tabloid journalism. it was like pecker was emptying the contents of his head about the lexicon and standard practices tabloid journalists use. whether we're talking about the source agreements or what he called taking a story off the marketplace, which is a nice way of saying catch and kill. david pecker was very nakedly frankly and calmly revealing the tricks of the trade. tricks that played into his very solid but also extremely transactional friendship with donald trump. one that he called mutually beneficial for decades because trump was a key seller of his magazines. when people went into the supermarket, they wanted to buy the magazines with donald trump on the cover and when they in fact tested which celebrities were the most popular, trump ranked among the top. each and every time. so david pecker giving us a

glimpse today into his relationship with donald trump, but one that i think will be nor important in the days to come when he starts testifying in earnest about what trump knew about the payments to karen mcdougle and to stormy daniels and of course, after the election, two conversations that david pecker has been privy to have had with donald trump where trump essentially thanked him for his contributions to the campaign and for making it happen. >> we can't see what's happening inside the courtroom. we're relying on a google doc to give us a transcript. you can see what's happening. tell us. what is it like as the prosecutors try to make their case? as they're interviewing david pecker. that's the jury like? what's donald trump like in that room? >> well, i would say everybody is really attentive today, which hasn't always as you know been the case. donald trump's attention kind of fluctuates. he has come in on days and been

extraordinarily bored. but when the subject is donald trump and donald trump directly, he stands at attention and he was very curious to hear how david pecker would describe his relationship. i would say his expression for the most part was fairly even. he was neither snarling at pecker as he sometimes does when he heads down the aisle and exits the courtroom and sees the press assembled, but he wasn't exactly friendly. my best recollection of the interaction was when pecker came into the courtroom yesterday and donald trump was almost like leaning around the table so he could get as close a look at david pecker's face as he could. it was as if he were daring pecker, you knew me for decades. make eye contact with me now. and pecker didn't seem to want to do that, but on the other hand, he wasn't a scared witness either. there was nothing about him that suggested he was intimidated or cowed. really, he was calm and

collected and while our colleague described him as sort of an elliptical witness, today i would say he was more focused and direct in answering the methodical questions about the formation of the relationship, how they paid off the door man at trump tower who tried to sell the enquirer a story about trump's illegitimate daughter that pecker himself said is 1,000% untrue. then starting to tell the beginnings of the karen mcdougle story, which is where i expect they'll pick back up on thursday morning. >> and remember, pecker has an immunity deal. we're going to talk to you in a few minutes about the gag order hearing which got pretty contention this morning. joining us now, former assistant district attorney from manhattan, rebecca. and former assistant district attorney for the manhattan d.a.'s office. it's really good to have you. so pecker. having pecker on the stand today, how important was it for him to lay out the beginnings of

the catch and kill, the prosecutors will call it, a scheme. >> very important as lisa said. he's a very important witness. he's the center of it. that trump tower meeting, that was him and cohen and that was the boss. president trump. former president trump. and he had a lot of good nugget ts in his testimony including describing donald trump as very detailed and almost micro managing. this is not someone that's just hands off. >> why does the prosecution need to understand donald trump is very detailed? >> first of all, it's very important for the jury to conclude that he himself had a hand in this. and part of the defense may be he had nothing to do with this. this was maybe done on his behalf. being very hands on, detail oriented puts him at the table. i think it's also really important to focus on the fact that you know, it's the falsification of business records that is the criminal act. this is all about what he intended and the color comes

from the witnesses. a lot of this is going to be laid out in boring documents and the jury needs a story. the story comes from these witnesses. >> why is it important to get to his intent in this case? >> because the intent changes from being what would be a misdemeanor if there's only intent of fraud. in order to make it out to be a felony, prosecutors have to show they intended to commit or conceal. >> isn't that the tricky thing here? getting it from a misdemeanor into a felony. a more complicated case. a felony that he was trying to influence the election and hide something. is the prosecution, i know it's only day two, but so far, how are they doing on this? >> that's the hard one and it is only day two. and tomorrow, we have off and mr. pecker will be probably most of the day thursday and then cross-examination will start. because the misdemeanor is easy but you don't do a 34-count

against the former president and also would have been the statute of limitations would have been passed. five years on the felony. so, yes. it's intent is to find that it's your conscious objective. so they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was donald trump's conscious objective to commit or conceal, to intend to commit or conceal a crime. >> let me just read you a little bit on what pecker said in his testimony about the detail oriented aspect of donald trump and the payments. he said i went to his office and when i was there, rona, his secretary, brought him a batch of invoices and checks to sign and while he was doing accounts payable packages, he would look at each check and sign it. i would describe mr. trump as very knowledgeable. very detail oriented. i would describe him almost as micro managing. look at all the aspects of whatever the issue was. i thought that his approach to money, he was very cautious and very frugal. so if he's paying this back,

this check to michael cohen with the invoice attached and it says legal services, doesn't he have cover to say i paid a legal services invoice. that's what it said i was doing. he was my personal attorney. i didn't have to ask specifically what this specific legal service was for because i knew he was agenting in this capacity. >> i think that's his best defense but i do think there are some aspect of the case that make that a hard defls to maintain. >> like what? >> i think that you know what you just spoke about. the fact he micro managed. you don't just sign invoices if you're the kind of person that's that hands on. i think also some of the personal testimony about how involved he was going to be, again, may come from a problematic witness like michael cohen. but if cohen's testimony is corroborated on 90% of what he's talking about and you know, then there's 10% left. the jury might believe him even

though he's a serial liar. >> i wonder if this might help donald trump here. this when he talks about cohen, pecker said he didn't know who cohen spoke to at least some of the time and added that cohen may have essentially been freelancing, acting on his own as he tried to get more involved in the campaign. >> reasonable doubt. defense only needs just one juror to say i don't know. i have a reasonable doubt. >> does that give you a little reasonable doubt that cohen might have just known what he wanted to do to protect the campaign? he might have been the one doing this on his own knowing when he watched the debates and saw ted cruz do well. michael cohen wasn't officially a part of the trump campaign. >> but he had a campaign e-mail address the prosecutors would argue and the prosecution will, they're going to have to, because michael cohen has,

people say baggage. he has tons and he keeps tweeting even today. they will have documents, they have mr. pecker. they will have other people who will be able to say okay, maybe michael cohen, i can find him credible on this even though he's a lair. >> prosecution's going to have to find a way to defend that. >> they're also trump's own comments. he so often goes to the public and says things that are contrary to his legal interests. so it's not just michael cohen's testimony. i think there are things that he has said before that make this a less plausible defense than it might otherwise be. >> thank you very much. catherine, you're sticking around. after the break, what will judge merchan rule on the gag order? did donald trump violate it and if so, what is the punishment? and knowing full well what kind of client donald trump is, what are his lawyers actually, realistically advising him? plus, what's happening on the campaign trial in florida as a six-week abortion ban is about

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ordering me to have a gag order. i don't think anybody's ever seen like this. i'd love to say what's on my mind, but i'm restricted. >> donald trump went after judge merchan again today just hours after a testy morning hearing on the gag order where merchan told one of trump's lawyers that he was losing all credibility with the court. still with us, msnbc legal analyst and correspondent, lisa rubin and catherine christian. lisa, again, you were watching. bring us into the courtroom in that moment. why did judge merchan tell todd blanche he was losing all credibility with the court? >> because he was essentially making the argument that he didn't have any case law for the proposition that when trump reposts other people's words, that he wasn't violating the gag order. what blanche ordered was your honor, i don't have any case law but it's just common sense. and that's why merchan sort of

exploded and said mr. blanche, you are losing all credibility with the court. this is a judge who lives and breathes the law. he wants to see evidence and legal citations at all times. and so what he was essentially asking blanche to do was direct me, for example, to posts that your client was responding to. you tell me that your client was responding to political attacks on him, direct me to the post that he's actually responding to. he asked blanche to do that eight or nine moved on to a ser of reposts. they're not directing others to make a statement and again, merchan was like, please, help me find the case law that supports your argument. at that point, blanche admitted there wasn't in. it was just a plain language reading of the gag order. that doesn't go over very well when the author of the gag order is the person you're making your argument to. presumably they understand what they meant by their words, maybe

more so than the parties do. so it was not a good showing for team trump at all. and you could hear both the silence of the room as merchan sort of told him you're losing all credibility but also the clickty clak of every reporter's typewriter trying to get down that quote. >> let me ask you about the prosecution and why they are saying this is so important to put, punish donald trump in some way. why it's now, the immediacy of it. what happened with the jury and one juror in particular? >> they're essentially saying that while many of the statements that are at issue were about witnesses in the case and specifically about michael cohen, there is one statement that is about the jury as a whole and specifically it's a quote that trump attributed to jesse waters but as blanche admitted in court today, not all

of the quote was from the fox news host. in fact, trump added on to it saying that liberal activists were lying to the judge. what waters did not say was what trump added. just to get on the jury. that's what chris conroy found unacceptable. whether or not it's directed at an individual juror or the jury process as a whole, that's pernicious. antithetical to the justice process. carrying on as it should. and that the judge should be particularly offended by and protective of the integrity of the proceedings in his courtroom, which is why it's necessary to find trump now and hold him in criminal contempt even though at this stage, they're not seeking any penalty in terms of jail time. >> isn't it partially though because there's one juror that asked to be excused? they felt their personal information was identifiable, that they were identified by people they know and there's a

worry that some of the jurors could feel like if i'm identifiable and donald trump's going after us, it's a problem. >> yeah, i think that's absolutely true. look, judge merchan has cracked down on the press in terms of what we are permitted to report. i think he realized after the first couple of days of jury selection that in allowing perspective jurors to talk about their current and former employers, he was also allowing them to reveal far more information about them that would be advisable in order to maintain their anonymity. many of whom were interviewed before that edict came through from the court. so between that and the way in which trump is accusing jurors of not coming clean with the judge in order to sort of import themselves into this jury and throw the verdict in another direction, i agree with you that there is a concern that jurors

are already way too concerned about their personal safety for the d.a.'s office's liking and therefore, they want judge merchan to make it absolutely clear to donald trump that the gag order is one that he must obey. whether or not they come forward with particular violations. >> catherine, i want to ask about michael cohen. why can't donald trump go after cohen when cohen is still allowed to go after donald trump? >> because donald trump is the one with the gag order and michael cohen doesn't have a gag order. >> why would it include cohen? the trump team would argue he's going on television, saying whatever he wants. >> it's all witnesses. cohen is shameless. he's not going to be intimidated. he wants to testify. but there may be other witnesses who say oh, no, look what he's doing to cohen. i'm up next, he's going to go it to me. it's about witnesses and cohen just happens to be one.

>> it's too hard to make a carve out. thank you very much. i know you're sticking around in case we have anything. lisa rubin, thank you as well. what can a lawyer realistly advise a client like trump and what do they do when he lashes out perhaps in front of a jury? plus, what is happening on college campuses across the country as pro palestinian protestors try to essentially shutdown the schools. to essent shutdown the schools nothing dims my light like a migraine. with nurtec odt, i found relief. the only migraine medication that helps treat and prevent, all in one. to those with migraine, i see you. for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment of episodic migraine in adults. don't take if allergic to nurtec odt. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. it's time we all shine. talk to a healthcare provider about nurtec odt from pfizer. you know, i spend a lot of time thinking about dirt.

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office of independent counsel from 1999 through 2002 where he initiated a report on the white water controversy. >> thanks for having me. >> this idea he's a nightmare client, that's baked in. he doesn't do what you ask him to. >> not always. >> if you're todd blanche right now, what are you saying to him about these gag orders and gag order and the judge at this moment? >> i think that your initial difficulty is dealing with a judge saying to you as a lawyer that you are losing all credibility with the court. i can tell you that's happened to me. it does happen on occasion, hopefully not too often. my reaction to that is i'm sure what blanche's reaction, i'm not going to be so easily intimidated. you're also going back to your client to say this is where things stand.

>> where do things stand? >> and it's getting more difficult. as we discussed at the beginning, it's one thing to have sort of pretrial skirmishing over feeling out everybody's relative position and how far you can push things. once the jury is sworn and the case begins and testimony starts and witnesses are in play, the court's toleration for too far outside of the lines is heightened and the court will take action. so i think what you're trying to impress upon your client is be careful. now, on the other hand, you know, donald trump didn't choose to bring this case and donald trump didn't choose to bring this case in the middle of an election cycle. so donald trump is right that he is you know, allowed to both defend himself in the political process and affirmatively go on the attack. so a court is going to be in a very difficult position. i understand you've explored with other guests how far things can be pushed and what might happen and there might be a

contempt citation and fines imposed and there might be consideration of the ultimate sanction, which is to put or attempt to put the former president into custody. as a penalty for noncompliance with a gag order. that obviously has some pretty severe implications and it will also cause that trial to stop in its tracks because donald trump will be able to appeal that and get relief from an appellate court. >> another delay. >> it is not a desirable result. even from the judge's standpoint. you're putting a jury on hold. you're subjecting them to review in the political process by those who correctly are allowed to continue to probe for undisclosed biases, which is what this is about with regard to jurors. they've been completely forthcoming about whether they can be fair. >> so you're saying that the judge puts someone into custody, it's going to throw a wrench into the process. >> unavoidably even if it's justify. it's a tough call. i think you have to, let's, i

know todd blanche said this like common sense. part of this is common sense. part of it is you know forfeit about the law. let's just think control of your courtroom in a high profile case in the middle of a presidential campaign. is there precedent for that? no. >> part of why it's here is because of delays pushed by defense team. that's part of the reason with why it's happening at this moment. >> you make that argument maybe with regard to some of the other prosecutions. >> it's been delayed a few times. >> this one was brought after it was turned down by vance's office after the feds, the u.s. attorney's office for the southern district of new york passed on it then alvin bragg got it on a campaign promise that they would tackle trump then they brought the case. >> robert, i want to -- >> then it would be on trial

this year. >> what i really want to ask you because i haven't been in position to ever observe this, no one has, except for a handful of people. when you are talking face-to-face with donald trump and advising him in a legal context, i know the impeachment isn't a legal context like this. it's different. political more. but when you're advising him in a legal context, how do you get through to him in particular? especially when politics are so deeply intwined in the process. >> i think you would account for what you're talking about like you would have a conversation with anybody else. being a lawyer doesn't mean you're a separate being on planet earth. >> no, but donald trump isn't like everybody else. he's different. >> right. that's why you try to bring it home to things every person can understand. even a former president of the united states who's currently running for office, by acknowledging the great amount of pressure he's under and to have space to respond in a political environment while abiding by the rules. a judge's primary concern is to

protect witnesses and the integrity of the trial but donald trump has legitimate interests, too. and you're trying to subject to the client there may be a point at which there's a collision and also i think blanche is probably telling him if there's a collision, you can't necessarily predict what that result would be and it may be a result that may not be in your interest. >> here's how far i think you can push it if you go past this. it's out of my hands. i can't control what the judge might do. >> the ultimate result here is that you want to achieve the best chance you can at a trial for acquittal. you don't want to go anything to jeopardize that. >> you likely want to tell him that what you're doing in court may have an effect on the jury and may have a negative effect on the jury that can push them in the direction of a conviction. >> i think it's the unexplained or the unknown consequences that you're most worried about. be careful what you do because you may lose control over this

and it may go in a direction you're not able to safely predict. i think that's the advice you would give anyone. may not be the advice you would give. it's not a lawyer's advice. it's just being a trusted person close to the president who has his best interest at heart. >> i still think if i were in this position, i would want a lawyer's advice. not just in person. i would want a lawyer's advice. we'll have to leave it there. we are heavy. thank you very much for joining us. up next, what does funding for ukraine and israel have to do with a ban on tiktok? what we're watching in the senate today. plus, what columbia university is doing now in the face of pro palestinian protests that will not let up. that will not let up when i first learned about my dupuytren's contracture, my physician referred me to a hand specialist. and i'm glad he did, because when i took the tabletop test, i couldn't lay my hand flat anymore. the first hand specialist i saw only offered surgery.

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the senate just advanced a $95 billion foreign aid package that has an amendment to force the sale of tiktok tucked inside. so will the full senate vote on it and will president biden sign it with that tiktok amendment? joining us now, ryan nobles. so, first, explain to me why the tiktok ban is tucked inside the bill? >> reporter: this was a negotiation that took place in the house of representatives as they were debating this package, a $95 billion package that includes funding for ukraine,

israel and taiwan. the house had already passed a bill that would ban it if bike dance didn't sell it within six months. there were senators concerned about that length of time, thinking it wasn't enough for bike dance to fully divest the company in a reasonable am of time. they talked to is that rights and settled on this deal of a nine-month extension with the possibility of it moving to a year if president biden okayed it as such. senators indicated to house members they were okay with that. they ended up folding it into the supplemental package. it will now be voted on tonight and it appears like it will passed and signed into law. there are enough senators who appear to say yes to this? any notable hold ups? >> reporter: they passed a

procedural step, it was passed overwhelmingly the range of 70080 votes. they're concerned that the israel aid is not conditioned, there's not enough for gaza or that they're opposed to the ukraine part of it. we haven't heard any loud voices coming out specifically about tiktok itself. there have been some concerned raised about free speech, intervening in business practices, things along those lines but most senators feel comfortable with the way this law has been written, that it will solve those problems. tiktok feels differently. >> forgive me, tell me what's going on with speaker johnson and whether he is going to hang

on to the gavel. >> reporter: it's still up in the air. we won't know until next week, but he was given a lifeline last night when donald trump said in a radio interview he was doing a good job and trying very hard. certainly giving him the space he needs with those conservative republicans who view donald trump as their leader. the cover he needs. now, it only takes a couple of republicans to throw him overboard. the question is will democrats come to his rescue. some have indicated they will. still an open question but for now, mike johnson looks to be on solid ground. >> thank you very much. coming up next, what president biden and donald trump are saying about the giant demonstrations at elite universities and what the reaction to the war in gaza could do to the election this november. there is a test case in pennsylvania voting booths today. pennsylvania voting booths today. they need their lawn back fast and you need scotts turf builder rapid grass. it grows grass 2 times faster than just seed alone. giving you a stronger lawn.

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online. hybrid until the end of the spring semester. after 100 of its students were arrested last week. joining us now from columbia university is nbc news correspondent, valerie castro. so tell us what you're seeing there today. >> reporter: university officials held a virtual press briefing a short time ago and they say one of their continued concerns is what they say is people who are unaffiliated with the university behind some of the most disruptive acts they've seen over the last several days. as for students, one of their concerns is graduation that's less than a month away. scheduled for may 15th. we have reached out to the university to find out if there are plans to change graduation because it is traditionally held in the area of campus where that large encampment is currently set up. we're still waiting the hear back if the ceremony could move to a different location, if it

could be canceled. no word yet from the university but students aren't sure what to think with the last few weeks of the semester remaining. take a listen to what they had to say. >> it's been emotional. i suspect graduation will look a bit different this year. i think right now, we're in a moment where everyone has to make a conscious decision about whether traditions are worth sacrificing to a greater cause. >> i feel like they kind of, they treat students as targets sometimes. >> i think it's good that you know, they're trying to keep this all under control. >> reporter: and those last two students from new york university reacting to the police presence around campus. there were arrests last night after police were called in. >> valerie, thank you very much. the war in gaza could make it into the polling booth as americans use their vote to tell the biden administration what they think of the u.s.'s position on israel. we're going to get a preview

today in a pennsylvania primary election just outside of pittsburgh. it is a district where 11 people were murdered in 2018 at the tree of life synagogue. joining us now from pittsburgh is nbc news capitol hill correspondent, ali vitali. so, explain the dynamic in this primary today. >> reporter: it's interesting that we would make a foreign policy point or see that foreign policy is royaling a house race, but we're watching these two things come into pennsylvania's 12 congressional district because there's a historically jewish neighborhood here. the squirrel hill community, as well as the fact this is where the tree of life synagogue is and the memory of that 2018 shooting will no be gone for a long time. it's why we're seeing this community be so engaged in this policy debate around israel and gaza. i spoke with the incumbent and

her opponent. to patel, this is a race all about the israel gaza conflict and the referendum vote on the job lee has done. for lee, she says it's one of the many issues voters are focused on. the house took the all posht vote on the series of bills on a israel piece. summer lee voted against it. she voted the vote to me as the fact that the u.s. needs to think about the way we continue to support israel in light of the ongoing conflict in gaza. that is lee's explanation for this. but it hasn't stopped various people, religious leaders in this community, from speaking out and saying they think she's out of step from where she i th how central israel is to jewish faith. i think she sees is more in geopolitical terms and i understand where she's coming from, but as a representative she needs to go further.

>> reporter: and we've met people here in this community on both sides of the issues, some saying they'll stick with summer lee and others saying they'll vote patel. but it could be a first litmus test in how this issue is playing with voters. >> thank you very much. coming up, what president biden is telling voters in florida today. yes, florida. a mystery! jessie loves playing detective. but the real mystery was her irritated skin. so, we switched to tide pods free & gentle. it cleans better, and doesn't leave behind irritating residues. and it's gentle on her skin. tide free & gentle is epa safer choice certified. it's got to be tide. power e*trade's easy-to-use tools, like dynamic charting and risk-reward analysis, help make trading feel effortless. and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market. e*trade from morgan stanley

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courtroom right now. >> that is a good question. i'm not sure how eager would be to be flying around the country before the general election. >> it is a little bit of a lull period. >> exactly. the convention is not until july. so he has the benefit here of actually being able to huddle up with his team to the extent that he desires. he's meeting tonight with the former japanese prime minister, last week he met with the polish president duda. and he's making some little stops around new york. >> is he frustrated being in the courtroom or is he actually -- tell me what you get from his team about his mindset? >> his mindset is having to deal with the realities that are playing out from eight years ago. and from his operation, they express outrage and fact that they're going to focus in on this. they will have plenty time to focus in on joe biden. but they're focusing on making the case there is a connection

between the department of justice, we don't expect they'll be able to prove this, a connection between the department of justice and this is the biden white house and this is a way to crumble his organization and take his money and they're spending $4 million on legal expenses a month and they can't put it toward campaign events and advertising, so all of this is left them to utilize the trial to the extent that they can. >> he's getting coverage every day on it. thank you very much. and let's talk about what president biden is doing in florida, florida, i guess, is still a swing-y state. what is the president and his team hoping to get out of the state and what issues are they focusing on? >> reporter: well, president biden just wrapped up an event here and it was his first solo came event focused on abortion. we've seen the vice president hold a number of campaign events in a number of events focused on

abortion. the most prominent voice on the issue for the administration. but today the president was leaning in and him talking about donald trump and attacking the former president in his home state, about a week before the six-week abortion ban is set to go into effect in florida and he did lay the blame on donald trump. he said that donald trump is responsible for women not having as many rights as their predecessors did. and talked about the fact that voters need to hold donald trump accountable and as now as donald trump is stuck on trial in new york, here is joe biden going out on the campaign trail and embracing the treat that we've seen him and the vice president do, which is attacking the president by name over and over again. so a striking thing as we saw the president do the rare thing in holding events focusing on abortion. >> did they say they think they could turn florida blue? what is the expectation of florida? do they think there is enough

voters out there. >> reporter: it is a good question. the biden campaign believes that because abortion will be on the ballot, there is a ballot measure where voters could vote whether or not they want to expand abortion rights in the state. it would be up to viability, which is around 24 weeks of pregnancy. that is on the ballot in november and as a result, the president thinks maybe i could benefit from that. there was some campaign aides who are saying the last time abortion was on the ballot in florida, in 2012, president obama won the state. but as noted, florida, my home state has become increasingly red in the last few years. donald trump won it twice when he was running so it is cautious to think whether or not president biden could win it. abortion rights activists say they might vote to expand abortion rights but they don't want to see restrictions on their guns or other things so there could be people that vote for donald trump at the top of the ticket and i don't want to have abortion up to six weeks which is when a number of women

don't know they're pregnant yet. but president biden is signaling that he think this will help him in november. >> and i think it is an open question whether having that ballot initiative out there on the ballot in november will make it easier for conservatives or people who like donald trump to say i'm going to get rid of this issue as a problem, i'm going to vote for this, i'm going to make abortion legal, up until the point i want to make it legal. that is now off the table and i feel free to vote for the candidate i like now, now that the issue of abortion is not going to be as pressing. thank you so much for joining us. a appreciate it. that is going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi, everyone. a blockbuster day of news today. 4:00 in new york. pulling the curtain back on an extraordinary scheme hatched by