>> announcer: "this week" with george stephanopoulos starts right now. >> jonathan: defining moment -- >> the house will be in order. >> jonathan: after months of delay, a rare coalition approves billions in aid for america's allies. >> a bipartisan coalition of democrats and republicans has risen up. >> the house has worked its will. these are not normal times here in the house or around the world. >> jonathan: a big win for the speaker of the house, one that may cost him his job. >> mike johnson's a lame duck. he is not going to lead us into the next congress. >> jonathan: this morning, house foreign affairs committee chair, michael mccaul and congressman ro khanna join us. plus, our powerhouse round table. stream warning. >> the political system seems hopelessly divided. the court seems to reflect that

division. >> it's a very complex institution. >> jonathan: retired supreme court justice stephen breyer as the court once again takes center stage in a presidential election. and -- >> at the end of the day, do you feel like this is the most important thing you can do to fight climate change? >> jonathan: as earth week kicks off, maryalice parks speaks with the environmental advocates fighting climate change at the ballot box. part of our abc news special series "the power of us." >> jonathan: good morning. welcome to "this week." this weekend, we saw a rare outbreak of bipartisanship in what had seemed to be a hopelessly dysfunctional congress. just maybe the dawn of a new day for the house of representatives, or it might have been a final act of yet another republican speaker destined to be brought down by hardliners in his own party. here's what we know.

after months of delay, the house overwhelmingly approved billions of dollars in funding for ukraine, israel, and taiwan. the vote on ukraine funding was lopsided, a resounding show of support for volodymyr zelenskyy's efforts to defend his nation from russia's aggression, but look more closely at the vote. look at how republicans voted. just 101 republicans voted yes. 112 voted no. that's a majority of house republicans voting against support for ukraine, a defining moment for the republican party and a screaming indicator that the party of reagan and the hawks who followed him is a distant memory. this is trump's party, not reagan's. it's a party that has fully embraced trump's vision of america first, and while that is trump's slogan, it was also the slogan of the isolationist republicans who nearly a century ago opposed america's support

for great britain in the beginning of world war ii. yesterday's vote was also a defining moment for speaker of the house, mike johnson. he did his job. he allowed the house to work its will, but he had to stand up to many in his own party to do so. minutes after the vote, president zelenskyy took note of the man who made it possible, posting on x, quote, i am grateful to the united states house of representatives, both parties, and personally speaker mike johnson for the decision that keeps history on the right track. speaker johnson had to rely on democrats to make it happen, and as he now faces a challenge to his leadership, mike johnson will almost certainly need to rely on democrats to survive as speaker, a fact that could radically change the power dynamics in congress so we begin this morning with abc's selina wang on capitol hill. good morning, selina.

>> reporter: good morning, jon. this is a defining moment for speaker johnson. after months of delay, the house has finally passed $95 billion in aid to ukraine, israel, and taiwan, but johnson, he took enormous risk to get this done, defying the far-right wing of his party, but his job is safe, at least for now. >> i think we did our work here, and i think history will judge it well. >> reporter: for weeks, marjorie taylor greene threatened to force a vote to remove mike johnson as speaker of the house if he dared to allow a vote on military aid for ukraine, but now that the vote has happened, greene still has not pulled the trigger, at least not yet. >> i'm actually going to let my colleagues go home and hear from their constituents. >> reporter: now she'll have to wait until they're back in session at the end of the month. >> there's more support that's growing. i've said from the beginning i'm going to be responsible with this. i support my majority. i support the majority next time. i do not support mike johnson. >> reporter: so far only two other house republicans have

signaled they backed greene's potential motion to vacate johnson as speaker, but with the razor-thin republican majority, that could be enough to oust the speaker, but johnson says he doesn't care because support for ukraine is more important than his job. >> to put it bluntly, i would rather send bullets to ukraine than american boys. my son is going to begin in the naval academy this fall. this is real life for me as it is so many other american families. we can't play politics in this. we have to do the right thing. >> reporter: as some unlikely allies, democrats who could help him save his job. >> traditional conservatives led by speaker mike johnson have risen to the occasion. >> you think you can trust the speaker? >> so far it looks that way. >> reporter: republican hardliners are outraged by johnson's turnaround. for months, he said any aid tied to ukraine should be tied to border security, despite rejecting a border deal that former president trump opposed. >> we're worried about america's border. he seems to be more worried

about ukraine. >> reporter: and hardliners are even angrier that johnson reached out to democrats to get this done. >> i'm concerned that the speaker's cut a deal with the democrats to fund foreign wars. i'm very disappointed and i've told speaker johnson that personally. i've continued to see capitulation and an unwillingness to even fight. >> reporter: johnson said he's not worried about the threats. >> i don't walk around this building being worried about a motion to vacate. i have to do my job. >> reporter: he'll need democrats to keep his job, and some say they will. >> i will vote to keep johnson as speaker. >> i think there are democrats who are happy to support him if he wants it. >> reporter: in addition to aid to ukraine, the house also passed $26 billion in aid to israel. in the end, 37 democrats voted against that. so now the package of bills led over to the senate where they're expected to vote on this on tuesday, and for his part, president biden, he thanked the house for getting this done saying that this sends a powerful message to the world

about american leadership. jon? >> jonathan: thank you, selina. i'm joined now by the chairman of the house foreign affairs committee, congressman michael mccaul. so let me ask you, congressman. at the end, the vote was overwhelming, particularly on ukraine. >> right. >> jonathan: on all of these bills. why did it have to be so difficult? why did it take months to happen? >> well, i think, you know, the motion to vacate mccarthy, which is a rarely used tool -- only twice in the history of congress, right? and the threat of the motion to vacate kept this from coming to the floor in a timely basis. i have to say, watching your piece, i am so proud of the speaker mike johnson. he went through a transformation. at the end of the day, the profile of courage is putting the nation above yourself, and that's when he did. he said at the end of the day, i'm going to be on the right side of history irrespective of my job, and i think that was what i admired so much.

>> jonathan: it was a transformation. i mean, he had initially said, no ukraine funding until we take care of the border. he was with a lot of, you know, a lot of the radicals are saying. how do you explain that transformation? what made johnson become the steadfast guy on this? that as you said, the profile in courage? >> i think he tried to do what the, you know, say the freedom caucus wanted him to do. it wasn't going to work in the senate or the white house. at the end of the day, we were running out of time. ukraine's getting ready to fall, and i think -- i think the briefings that he got in the classified space, the advice he got from people like me and mike turner, house intelligence, armed services, i think talking to world leaders. he became the man that went from a district in louisiana to the speaker of the united states, to also someone who had to look at the entire world and had to carry the burden of that and make the right decision, and his son's going to annapolis. he is smart. he knows what's at stake here if

we surrender in ukraine like we did in afghanistan, and america will be weaker, not stronger. >> jonathan: it's fascinating. he was the one guy that could either make it happen or not happen. is his job now in jeopardy? >> i tell you what. he's got any support, and he has a lot of -- i think his -- the stock in mike johnson's gone way up. i think the respect for him has gone way up because he did the right thing irrespective of his job. that garnered a lot of respect, and also from the democrat side. that's not what you normally want, but i do think -- >> jonathan: what's not what you normally want? to rely on democrats? >> to have to do that, right? >> jonathan: right. >> it shows you that we're in a bipartisan era in some strange way where democrats will be able to back the speaker on the other side of the aisle and not have him vacated out of the chair, but i think that -- i think -- i think he's in good shape. i really do.

nothing i mean, you already have you enough republicans to force it, and it only takes one to force the vote and you have enough to remove him if it were only republicans. so it looks like he's going to need to rely on democrats to remain speaker of the house. how does that change the dynamic? i mean, we're now a coalition government in the house effectively? >> maybe some people like that. i mean, there are -- >> jonathan: yeah. >> there are those in my party -- look. the motion to vacate has only been used in history. once joe cannon used it against himself to keep his position, and then mccarthy. when the motion gets threatened every week in the congress, that is being abused and i think we need to fix that. that is a tool that's being abused by a minority when the majority of my conference don't agree with them, and they use that because they think that gives them power, and it does if they have a gun to the speaker's head every day, and so i think that's something that we'll be looking at. >> jonathan: i mean, when you heard the way johnson was

talking about this moment in history, whether or not we support ukraine, the warning if we don't, putin succeeds there, and he moves through europe, and that's what particularly the eastern europeans worry about. you've made that case. why is it that a majority of republicans in the house voted against supporting ukraine? >> i think they bought into this notion that it's an either/or proposition. you can't secure the border -- you can't support ukraine without the border. we can do both. we're a great nation. now we are stuck in a political issue here, but, you know, america's back, and we have our allies back now, and the people, you know, in israel, and in ukraine and in taiwan, and our nato allies now know that america's back. we're leading the free world like ronald reagan did, and, you know, reagan brought down the soviet union for god's sakes. the eyes of the world are watching and our adversaries are watching, and history is watching, and that's what i kept telling my colleagues.

do you want to be a chamberlain or a churchill? because that is the moment in time that we are at. >> jonathan: well, one of your colleagues who agrees with you on this, dan crenshaw, said that looking at his colleagues that don't support this, fellow republicans, it's -- i'm guessing the reasoning is they want russia to win so badly they're willing to oust the speaker over it. i mean, how is it that we have republicans -- the party of reagan, or formerly the party of reagan, acting as if they want russia to succeed in ukraine? >> i grew up in the cold war, and i see -- i see the whole thing differently, and i think if we -- if we surrender on ukraine like we did in afghanistan, which was a debacle, is the united states of america going to be stronger or weaker? i would say weaker, and then putin will invade moldova. georgia, he'll threaten the baltics, and the united states, we can't shrink from this responsibility. you know, i quoted chamber -- churchill yesterday, the gathering storm.

he talked about how it was unnecessary war. he saw the axis of evil and coming to power and then he also says, this is an unnecessary war that could have been stopped. my dad was in that war. just think if we could have stopped hitler at poland, how much blood and treasure we could have prevented. i think we're at the same moment in history now. >> jonathan: so where's trump on this? we saw it when we met in turkey, and he said, not a penny more in ukraine. where's your party on this? >> if you read through the tea leaves, he has not come out and condemned a vote for ukraine. >> jonathan: not yet, yeah. >> he said, what happened if i would have been president -- he likes the idea of the loan program. you'll hear from lindsey graham on sunday. we have been talking to him about this loan program, and he likes the idea that it's not just a giveaway, but a loan program like the eu has for ukraine, and i think what he wants is for a lifeline to be given to ukraine so that when he gets into office in his thinking, that he can then negotiate and save it. >> jonathan: it's a loan program that can be forgiven. chairman mccaul, thank you for joining us.

>> thanks, jon. >> jonathan: appreciate it. coming up, we'll ask congressman ro khanna how democrats are responding to speaker johnson's moves and whether they'll help him stay in power. we're back in just two minutes. >> jonathan: after a busy and coming up, we'll ask ill, congressman ro khanna how democrats are responding to we're back in just two minutes. whether they'll help him stay in power. we're back in just two minutes. oooh! this is our night! shingles doesn't care. but shingrix protects. only shingrix is proven over 90% effective. shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness, and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever,

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i would give him credit for doing this. i would vote to table any motion to vacate him. congressman mccaul voted churchill and he also said, america's exhausted every wrong option before doing the right thing, and this shows that american democracy is very strong. >> jonathan: you said something significant. you said you would oppose -- table the motion to vacate. in other words, you will protect speaker johnson's job if marjorie taylor greene and others go through with the threat to try to remove him? >> i would. and speaker jeffries will be there in 2025, but look. i'm a progressive democrat and i think you would have a few progressive democrats doing that, and i disagree with speaker johnson on many issues and have been very critical of him, but he did the right thing here and he deserves to keep his job until the end of his term. >> jonathan: would you and fellow democrats that will protect him at this moment, ask him for anything in return? do we effectively have -- you heard me ask congressman mccaul, a coalition government in the house? >> i'll leave the negotiations to speaker jeffries, but i don't think everything in politics

needs to be transactional. i think here you have speaker johnson who not only put this up for a vote, but he also separated the bills which i thought was courageous. he let people vote their conscience on taiwan, on the offensive aid to israel, and on ukraine and i give him credit for that. >> jonathan: now you were one of the 37 who voted against the funding for israel. tell me more. tell me why. i mean, why -- was that a high number or a low number in your view? >> it was a high number. it was a hard vote. i mean, look. this was a stance against a blank check for netanyahu and offensive weapons unconditionally while he's talking about going into rafah when we know more women and children are going to die, and the reason you had people like jamie raskin and myself who have

voted for israel aid year after year and voted for iron dome take this stand is that we wanted to make it clear that there has to be a change in strategy and no more famine and suffering in gaza. >> jonathan: i'm sure you saw the report in "the wall street journal" on friday that the administration -- the biden administration is considering a billion dollar arms deal with israel. are you concerned about how biden is handling this? >> i am in terms of i'm glad he's moving in the rhetoric, but we can't be shipping offensive weapon when is netanyahu on his own terms, is defying the president's state department, defying the president's secretary of defense, and we know that thousands of people are going to die, and by the way, jon, we know that israel is still using the 2022 authorization and appropriation for iron dome which i voted for and many of the 37 who voted no voted for that funding. the money yesterday is not going to be used for another 2 1/2 years. so why are we giving this unconditionally to netanyahu

when the entire world is saying that there's famine there, that we need a new strategy, that we need a release of the hostages in peace? >> jonathan: have you given this message to the white house? >> they know. they've heard from many of us, but it's not just progressive democrats. i mean -- and we need an architecture for peace in the middle east. i mean, look. iran's attacks were totally unjustified. i voted to condemn them, but the reality is until we have a security cooperation effort, a diplomatic architecture in the middle east with iran, with saudi arabia, with israel, you're never going to get peace, and we're not going to be able to do what lindsey graham wants which is blow iran off the map. what is the alternative? how do we get peace? we should be leading as president obama did. >> jonathan: i mean, given the iran attack, attempted attack on israel, it was for the most part unsuccessful, but how do you -- how do you not support israel in

terms of defense aid at a time when the iranians, you know, have done something that they have never done before, which is try to directly attack the israelis? directly from iran to israel? >> you absolutely do, and i support it -- iron dome funding. we would have voted -- we tried to introduce an amendment saying let's just make this about iron dome and david's sling and arrow 3. that amendment wasn't ruled in order. many of us have voted for all the defensive aid. i would support it and i would support the united states using the intercepters to knock anything down against iran, but what we need is to figure out how we de-escalate, not give them offensive weapons to now going to hezbollah to expand the war, and by the way, jon, look. i'm for the labor tradition to perez to barack. i'm not sure sherrone to netanyahu. >> jonathan: before you go, there was also the vote on tiktok that was part of this. i know you have opposed efforts

to force the sale of tiktok with the threat of a ban, but now it looks like if tiktok is not sold within a year, this bill becomes law that bytedance has to either, if it doesn't sell, it's banned in the united states. >> i don't think it's going to pass first amendment scrutiny because there are let alternatives. we could have made it a crime to transfer americans' data to an adversarial foreign nation or interference, but just to ban 170 million americans' engagement in speech or livelihood, the federal judge in montana struck it down. the judges struck it down when trump tried this. it doubt it survives scrutiny in the supreme court. >> jonathan: ro khanna, thank you for joining us on "this week." >> thank you. >> jonathan: the powerhouse round table is standing by ready to break down what happens next for speaker johnson and how donald trump's first criminal trial could impact the 2024 race. we'll be right back. criminal trial could impact the 2024 race.

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lost 275,000 jobs. >> i'm supposed to be in new hampshire. i'm supposed to be in georgia. i'm supposed to be in north carolina, south carolina. i'm supposed to be in other different places campaigning, but i have been here all day on a trial that really is a very unfair trial. >> jonathan: president biden and former president trump on how his criminal trial is impacting his campaign. let's bring in the powerhouse round table. we have former dnc chair donna brazile, former rnc chair and trump white house chief of staff, reince priebus, abc news senior white house correspondent selina wang back with us, and politico senior columnist, jonathan martin. let's start right with mccaul. this was a transformation. >> it sure was.

>> jonathan: we saw it from the speaker of the house, johnson. what do you think drove it? how did he suddenly become this force willing to lose his job for the sake of something he opposed just six months ago? >> i think it was a combination of intel briefings with folks who work for groups with acronyms that were on their organizations. >> jonathan: cia, dni, whatever. >> exactly. folks with four stars on their shoulders, foreign leaders. i think it was also frankly the call of history, him recognizing that he was in a prove denshal moment, and lastly, politics. he was trying to save face, jon. the fact is if he hadn't moved this bill the way he did, there was going to be an effort to bring it to the floor directly through a procedure that would have effectively brought the senate bill up for a vote, gone around him, and so he wanted to save face, and he, you know, cut the bill up like he did, and he added that tiktok ban which is, i think, more consequential than what would have happened if it was just the senate big. that's something else. so look. i think right now he obviously is going to face a challenge,

but two things. i think the democrats are going to rally to him because otherwise, they would look small, and they would not look like they were answering history's call, but also something else is important. i think trump will stand with him at least for now not because trump has this sort of great sense of altruism, but because of trump's politics, jon. he doesn't want the distraction and the mess. trump does not want more drama. he has plenty on his own. >> jonathan: we heard ro khanna say he will vote to protect the republican speaker of the house's job. will we see a lot of that? >> i think it depends. the speaker will have to reach out to hakeem jeffries and others like he did over the last couple of days to be able to save his job, but look. i have to say this. i'm a louisianan. i'm always proud when louisiana people come through, especially someone with lsu ties, but he's no -- he's no moderate. he's a maga republican. we all know that. we know what he stands for. he resisted this.

he said at first, we will not pass this foreign aid package until we get the appropriation bills through, until we get the pfizer -- he kept putting conditions. at the end of the day, i agree with j. mar. he decided to go with history and to be the soul who understood what's at stake and protecting ukraine, serving -- protecting our allies in the middle east as well as in the indo-pacific region. so he did the right thing. >> jonathan: so reince, let me ask you something -- about something that newt gingrich, a former speaker of the house said about the mess unfolding. he said, the demons that gaetz -- matt gaetz -- and kevin mccarthy are still out there. you can't govern by shooting yourself in the head every day. >> whoa. >> jonathan: that's probably correct, but are republicans going to effectively be shooting themselves in the head? >> no, i don't think so because obviously, i think speaker johnson and his leadership prevailed, what he did was he also listened to his colleagues

this week for hours. he allowed amendments on the floor, and i think he made it pretty clear as has been just said that, you know, it's one thing to govern through media clicks, small-dollar donations, podcasts, and getting famous as a representative. it's another thing when you sit down in an intel hearings and discussions and you really hear the truth and you listen to recordings and you know what the truth is and you feel the weight of our country -- >> jonathan: ukraine may fall if this doesn't pass. >> and the uncertainty, and also donald trump also laid off. >> yeah. >> because he knows also the intelligence, number one, and number two, as it was said nobody in the republican party wants to look so stupid as to have yet another leadership fight with no pathway in sight. >> i've got to fact check you there because there are many republicans who are ready. >> there's a few, but -- there are always going to be a few that want -- that want to get this kind of attention, but trump is doing very well. trust in the economy poll came out and he was plus 22 in georgia, plus 12 in michigan, and why would -- why would he or any republican want to create this kind of mess? >> jonathan: selina, i saw you

up there all week on the hill running after those that were gunning for johnson and also with johnson himself. he seems confident that his job is not at risk. is that a real confidence? >> every time he's asked about it, including when i did, he just laughs it off and says, i need to do my job. i can't be focused on this motion to vacate every day, but i think reince makes a good point which is when i was talking to more of these moderate members of the republican house, they said, look. i'm very angry at johnson. i'm extremely disappointed in him, but it makes us, the

republican party, look bad if we throw this house into chaos once again, so they were saying they were not for what marjorie taylor greene is doing, and so far let's be real. she's been all bark, no bite. we haven't seen a motion yet, so so far johnson has managed to use some congressional jujitsu so get this across the finish line and he kept his gavel. >> jonathan: and the democrats seem serious about actually not allowing marjorie taylor greene to do this. >> yeah. i mean, i think that they understand that they want to get some stuff done and they're going to look like a adults in the room if they end up -- if she ends up doing it and they end up coming in to save him. even if there was a motion to vacate, it's not necessarily going to be successful. >> jonathan: you know, reince, your former colleague in the white house, steve bannon, told me this morning, mike johnson's going down. >> well -- >> when? what year?

what year? >> we'll see, but i think -- i think as we're listening to this, the democrats do need to be careful. i mean, they need to keep quiet as far as their willingness to jump up and down and save speaker johnson because the more democrats come out and say, i'm going to protect speaker johnson, the more -- >> jonathan: the opposition -- you can't have that. >> we're not going to be silenced because we're standing up for the american people. we want a budget that works for everybody. we want a country that functions. we want to, you know, we want to protect america's dignity in the world. >> by protecting johnson, that's very good. >> he's the speaker of the house and while he is elected by the majority of republicans, he's a constitutional officer so it's not about the individual. it's about the constitution and an officer of the nation. >> jonathan: my question -- my

question to donna -- >> it's the support. >> jonathan: and to j. mart though is if democrats continue -- if this effort goes forward and johnson is there because there were democrats that refused to go along with the effort to oust him, is there going to be a price that the democrats -- now this is politics after all. do democrats want to get something in return for supporting johnson? this is my question about a coalition government. >> i mean, look. i'm not in hakeem's office every day or anyone else in the leadership, but as a former staffer, i would hope that the democrats would put the interest of the country -- this is a very -- as the president often said, it's an inflection point for the nation. so the democrats must do what is in the best interest of the nation, and then figure out what's in the best interest of hour chances 19 7 days from now. >> i think the agenda for the rest of this calendar year in the congress is pretty darn thin. they're in the bringing up the civil acts right of 1964, okay? >> jonathan: the government's funding. >> keeping the lights open of the government. look. i think the only way the democrats would change their mind and move on johnson is if johnson would move to impeach biden, okay? because that i think would effectively break the task and bargain. i don't see that happening, and if this is the order to keep the

government open until november, i think johnson's job is safe, but next year, who knows? >> jonathan: i want to turn to trump in court and i want to play something he had to say outside the courtroom this week. >> it's a shame, and i have been sitting here for days now from morning till night in that freezing room. freezing. everybody was freezing in there. >> jonathan: everybody's freezing in there. i mean, he's stuck in a room where he can't even control the thermostat. >> 50% -- >> jonathan: you've seen that donald trump before. that's an irritated donald trump. >> 50% of the american people think that this case is political. that's a big number. donald trump of all people, is -- he's turning himself into a victim, and that's an amazing thing, and he's doing it, and this is the perfect case to do it, and this is classic donald trump, and whether it not being able to go to barron's high school graduation, the supreme court this week, or freezing in the courtroom. this is all part of the

narrative. it's all part of the movie script moving forward, and he's playing it. >> that's why he's tried to delay this trial ten times because it's meaningless. it doesn't matter. do you know what matters? he's sitting in a courtroom every day while joe biden is going from your home state to pennsylvania down to florida this week because the biden campaign will take every opportunity to show -- >> and it's not working. >> it's working. >> he's still behind. >> he's making himself a victim. does that resonate with anybody outside of who already supports him? that's the question. >> it marginalizes the independents and whatever happens in this case. in 2016, it was 24/7 lousy press, good press, every in between donald trump. if you look at the press, 90% of it's about trump, and he -- he

went through the last three weeks with five rallies a day, and turned out one of the big upsets in modern history. when it's all about trump, he's winning. >> yes. so i disagree with that. >> jonathan: fivethirtyeight average has shown the movement towards biden. >> i think if the election is about trump, biden's got a lot better chance, and right now biden's problem is this election is about joe biden. this is a challenge, right? >> jonathan: those are the numbers that make biden very nervous. how does the white house deal? >> that's the most ominous number, michigan. >> jonathan: how does he deal with the fact that donald trump is stuck? >> he's still winning. >> i think they're loving it actually because you haven't seen them directly tackle his legal issues head-on. you've seen veiled swipes, but for the biden campaign to have the former president, the gop front-runner sitting in court

defending himself against criminal charges covering up this massive scandal, they think that speaks for himself, and he did some half a dozen campaign stops in pennsylvania. he'll be in florida this week handling the issue of abortion which is interesting because as a catholic, he's been uncomfortable and letting harris deal with it. this is going to be the strong split screen they want with trump. >> jonathan: donna, those numbers have to terrify democrat. >> i got numbers that look better than that. every week we see one number this way and one number that way. they're going to seesaw. here's the best part of this conversation. if you look that far down, you will not see bottom of the mississippi river. >> he's scraping. >> no. joe biden has to do a delicate dance in bringing back the family and the independents and especially suburban women. he is showing every day he's bringing them back home and when you bring them home, they will turn out.

>> the numbers aren't there yet though. >> jonathan: we've got to move on because up next, we have retired supreme court justice stephen breyer joining me right here in our chambers in the studio. we'll be right back. our chambe studio. we'll be right back. with schwab investing themes™, it's easy to invest in ideas you believe in. spot a trend in electric vehicles? have a passion for online gaming? or want to explore the space economy? choose from over 40 themes, each with up to 25 stocks identified by our unique algorithm. buy it as-is or customize to align with your goals. all at your fingertips. schwab investing themes. 40 customizable themes. up to 25 stocks in just a few clicks. ♪ smile! you found it. the feeling of finding psoriasis can't filter out the real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready

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entitled "reading the constitution: why i chose pragmatism, not texualism." he's joining me here in the studio. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> jonathan: you make the case in this fascinating book, sweeping history of the supreme court that justices should consider the practical consequences of a decision such as how those affected by the decision will react. how does that work in practice? >> in practice, you do your best to figure out what's going to happen, but it's most likely to play a major role when you look at the words of the constitution and they don't tell you the answer. look at the words of a statute. they don't tell you the answer, and so people forever since chief justice marshall in 18 -- whatever it was, and holmes and

brandeis, and the others, they say, somebody wrote those words. they had a reason and you interpret them. >> jonathan: because as you know, there's an argument that a justice has to stay within the four corners of what's written on that page. >> yes. >> jonathan: let's look at for instance in the dobbs decision what justice alito wrote. we do not pretend to know how our political system or society will respond to today's decision in overturning roe and casey, and even foreseeing what would happen, we will have no authority to acknowledge that decision. >> really? >> jonathan: why is he wrong? >> well, let me give you a very simple case. you may know that if somebody who has a child who is handicapped, the school board has to give that child a good education, and if the mother and father think not, they can bring a lawsuit, and the statute says they're entitled to their costs. that was the case. cost. does cost include the cost of an educational expert, $29,000 or

does it just mean legal costs? so i say, here. why don't you try this, mr. textualist. say it loud. cost. now do you know the answer? say it twice. cost, cost. three times. cost, cost, cost. it doesn't tell you. so the other things that judges have always looked to too, who wrote those words and what did they have in mind? what was congress trying to do? what are the consequences if you go one way rather than another way? how does it fit into a set of values that begins with the constitution? judges have always done that kind of thing and it is part of the role of interpreting a statute or the constitution. >> jonathan: so let me ask you though as a justice, when you are going through a high-profile controversial case, are you hearing the noise outside? i mean, i guess literally the protests outside the court, but more broadly, are you gauging and thinking about how the world is going to react? how the country is going to react to your decision? >> yes. i would say that's in your mind.

>> jonathan: how? how do you do that? >> you say, does that lead -- does that lead to your deciding x rather than not x? well, i can never say never, but rarely. paul freund, the professor said the role of politics in any court, he said, no judge should or will be moved by the temperature of the day, but every judge will be aware of the climate of the season. >> jonathan: so what about our time now? the political system seems hopelessly divided. the court seems to reflect that division. >> hard to say. it's a different -- it's a very complex institution, and where i think the politics that i've seen -- i've not seen politics in the court, and i have been a

judge for 40 years. >> jonathan: you've not seen politics in the court? >> not politics in the sense in which i understood that word when i worked for senator kennedy, ted kennedy when i was a senator. i worked there for a few years. look. you get a phone call, mayor of wooster, same time. secretary of defense, which call will senator kennedy take first? >> jonathan: mayor of wooster. >> of course. it's politics. of course. how popular is this? how unpopular are that? how will we get the republicans to go along? or democrats too? how will we get all the people to the senate meetings? where do you want to stand when you are running for election

and -- and, and, and, and? no, that isn't there. that just isn't there. >> jonathan: so how important was it for the supreme court when they ruled on the colorado case about whether or not trump could be on the ballot that that was a unanimous decision? >> how important was it? >> jonathan: yeah. >> don't talk about that case because you'll know more about it than me because that's after i left the court, but in general -- >> jonathan: yeah. >> -- that is a very interesting question for me because it's very tempting once you've written a dissent even from a denial -- refusal to hear a case. you've written the dissent and your real audience is the other judges, but if you fail at that, you've written it and why not have the country have the virtue of seeing it? no, said holmes. no, said taft, and taft said, it's just ego. so i always thought, well, it doesn't hurt to publish these things. it puts out another point of view. it shows people which they would believe anyway that not everybody's in agreement, but there's also something to be said to try to keep down the

extent to which you publicly reveal the disagreement. >> jonathan: would the justices ever do the kind of horse trading we see in congress? i don't mean to be crass about this -- >> no. >> jonathan: you had two decide the presidential election. one looks better for donald trump, the ballot access issue. one absolute immunity that doesn't serve his purposes and send the country a message? >> look. it may be that you could find a compromise in the conference or way of approaching things in the conference that will, in fact, solve a number of problems, and that could be one of the problems. >> jonathan: it would be a very powerful message to the country to see two 9-0 decisions that can't be broken down into straight political lines. >> the second -- sandra o'connor used to say this. the first unwritten rule is nobody speaks twice until everyone speaks once. the second unwritten rule, tomorrow is another day. you and i were the greatest of allies on case one. case two, we're absolutely at lagger heads. >> jonathan: but they are looking to how the country is going to receive these decisions?

>> be careful in saying that. i want to say no. i want to say no, but i can't say no, never. i mean, you're up there in that. you're up there in that building which i can see a picture of, and in that building, you are making decisions that will affect people. of course, knowing that a lot of people are going to read a case leads me to write if it's my opinion to write, use certain language that is easy to understand, and spend a lot of time trying to explain why. >> jonathan: and you don't want to contribute to the political divide in the country. >> no. of course, not. of course, not, but you're looking for an easy answer. >> jonathan: yeah. >> and i'm not being coy and saying, no.

there aren't easy answers. >> jonathan: justice stephen breyer, thank you for being right here in the studio on "this week." it's an honor to have you here. >> thank you. >> jonathan: coming up, maryalice parks kicks off earth week with the abc series, "the power of us." we'll be right back. ice parks kh week with the abc series, "the power of tus." we'll be right back. (vo) it's shrimp your way. choose three flavors for just $20*. like new street corn shrimp. and our famous garlic shrimp scampi. it's time to grab some cheddar bays and get flavorfull.

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pain means pause on the things you love, but... green... means... go! ♪ cool the pain with biofreeze. and keep on going. biofreeze. green means go. >> jonathan: as we mark earth day tomorrow, abc news white house correspondent maryalice parks travels to battleground pennsylvania to report on the effort to turn out voters who care about climate change. it kicks off our network-wide series, "the power of us" covering emerging solutions for our changing world. >> reporter: emily church is a biologist turned activist. >> i'm aiming for around 80 today. >> reporter: knocking on doors in pittsburgh, she tells me she used to spend time pushing lawmakers on climate change, but they told her voters didn't care.

>> the people who prioritize the environment and climate need to show up. >> if a voter comes to the door, just follow the script. >> reporter: the voter project is targeting very specific voters, environmentally conscious citizens, often young people and people of color who rarely head to the polls. >> of all the ways to work on climate change, why this? >> because people who vote or who politicians pay attention to, and so they make the decisions. >> that's our biggest problem in the climate movement right now. we don't have enough voting power. >> reporter: the group's founder says they have had some success. >> we've sometimes increased turn out as much as 1.8 percentage points in general elections, 3.6 points in primaries and 5.7 points in local elections. >> that doesn't sound like a like. >> ask donald trump how important 1.8% is in pennsylvania. he'll tell you. >> reporter: democrats are working to address climb change.

they hope they can push republicans to to the table today. >> we want to scare the bejesus out of as many politicians as possible, no matter what side of the aisle they're on until they think, you know what? the only way i can win elections is if i start recognizing the biggest crisis that humanity faces. >> reporter: but that's no easy task. across the board, this election registered voters list immigration, the economy, abortion, and democracy as their top issues with climate change not even making the top ten. partisan and generational divides at play. >> basically the younger the voter, the more they're likely to prioritize climate change as a voting issue, and yeah. that is going to be a reality that republicans are going to need to grapple with eventually. >> reporter: the choice before voters stark, but many democrats worry young progressives might still stay home despite the biden administration investing billions to fight climate change. >> what do you say to those young voters who argue, he hasn't done enough? >> well, the fact is president biden has done more to address

climate change than any president in u.s. history, and there's a lot more to be done. scientists have said that we still can avoid the worst of the worst of the climate crisis, but what we do in these next few years is essential. >> reporter: nathaniel says big policy matters and americans have been too often told to focus on their own small habits. >> hey. don't pay attention to that coal-fired power plant back there. instead, it's all your fault for having a plastic water bottle in your hand and we bought it. when in truth, it is far more of a political and a systemic problem that needs political and systemic solutions. >> reporter: it's an uphill battle, but for emily, finding and activating these new voters is worth the fight. >> the science is very clear. so we not only need to do it. it's just a matter of getting it done. >> reporter: for "this week," maryalice parks, abc news, pittsburgh. >> jonathan: our thanks to maryalice, and be sure to catch more of "the power of us" series across abc news this week. "thes

across abc we'll be right back. ack.

>> jonathan: thank you for sharing part of your sunday with us. have a great day. part of your h us. have a great day.

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