two years on — is ukraine losing the war russia began with its full scale invason? on the day the uk prime minster travels to poland to announce more

aid for ukraine and an extra 75 billion on defence spending for this country if he wins the election, we'll talk live to the former armed forces minister. also tonight — this was the moment rhiannon bragg's partner pointed a gun at her, before holding her against her will for eight hours. he had stalked and made threats to kill her. he was jailed, but why do so few stalking cases reported to police result in a conviction? plus — the bbc�*s andrew harding witnessed men women and children clambering into a dignhy on the french coast — five people from that boat, including a seven—year—old girl, died. will the new controversial safety of rwanda act stop people getting on boats these boats? we'll ask this iranian man who made that same journey two years ago.

# the only one i know... #. and, we'll speak to the man who wrote one of the iconic songs of the �*90s and has just been honoured at the inaugural northern music awards. good evening. is ukraine losing the war that russia began when it launched its full scale invasion just over two years ago? on the day when the uk prime minister announced an extra 500 million to kyiv on a visit to poland, days after that big us aid package for ukraine for was finally passed — is it a turning point in the war? realistically, is it? because the first war in europe since 1945 hasn't gone away even if attention and focus has shifted to the middle east. here's joe inwood. explosion. it's amazing to think that anyone still lives in ocheretyne. but they do, right on the front

lines of russia's invasion. front lines that have crept ever closer. in the bombed out buildings and basements of this former industrial town, ukrainian search and rescue teams try to get anyone they can to safety. translation: because of the offensive actions - of the russian federation on front line towns, the situation is extremely difficult. places like chasiv yar, krasnohorivka, ocheretyne — these are settlements which are constantly under enemy attack. they hit them with multiple rocket systems, artillery fire and guided aerial bombs up to 500 kilos. this war has not been going ukraine's way. last year's much—anticipated counteroffensive didn't deliver and since then, russia has been advancing, slowly but surely. the biggest movement has been around the city of avdiivka.

this was a stable front line pretty much since fighting broke out in 2014. but at the start of this year, the russians finally took it and have been pushing forward ever since. but it is not only cities on the front line that have suffered. kharkiv has been under relentless attack from missiles and drones. just a few days ago, the city's tv tower was destroyed. many blamed a lack of ammunition, especially air defence missiles, and that is why this aid is so welcome. us support for ukraine, over $60 billion, has been delayed for eight months by political infighting, but has finally reached the senate. today, the uk also announced another £500 million. other european nations look to be stepping up. there are reports a billion dollars worth of supplies already are being prepared for delivery. we're talking about the monetary

values very similar to what ukraine received in the second half of 2022 and during 2023. so if these are supported by the same number of material, meaning munitions, weapons, etc, so we can see a quite substantial stabilisation on the front. actually, the impact will be very, very significant. so russians will be essentially deprived from their villages to move forward. we assume that the united states and the united kingdom has those materials in stock right now, which means that they can start shipping like any time, which means that these items will be delivered within a matter of days, and maybe weeks. but it's not only the financial provisions in the bill that are being welcomed. so there's two provisions in the bill that the us house has passed that make it a bit different than what the senate passed. one is the requirement to send atacms, and this is brilliant and wonderful. atacms are the long—range rockets that the white house has refused to send so far. the second thing that this

bill requires is a plan for victory and there's, again, criticism that the biden administration has only given enough weapons to keep ukraine in the fight but not enough to sustain it. so i think this is also a good thing. it's going to force the biden administration to detail its plans. it's important to remember that ukraine faces problems beyond ammunition. new recruits are in short supply and morale has been hit by battlefield setbacks. back in ocheretyne and wild doves, common to ukrainian villages, can be heard above the shelling. but this footage was filmed last week. russia is now claiming to have taken the town. it's important to note that while western allies are sending huge amounts of ammunition, no—one is sending silver bullets.

forgive me, i said the first war in europe since 1945 — apologies that is wrong because of what happeend in the balkans in the 1990s. in poland today, the prime minister announced a significant boost to this country's defence budget if the conservatives win the next election. 75 billion over the next six years. how big is this if they win the election? in how big is this if they win the election? ,., ,, , election? in downing street they reaard it election? in downing street they re . ard it a election? in downing street they regard it a very _ election? in downing street they regard it a very significant - regard it a very significant commitment, it is an immediate start to hitting the target of hitting 2.5% of gdp on defence by 2030. they also clearly regard it as a hugely symbolic moment. as you said, the prime minister gave this commitment in poland, right next door to ukraine. we had this very arresting phrase from the prime minister, he talked about an access of authoritarian states including russia, iran, north korea and in

china they are working together to make this the most dangerous moment in the world since the end of the cold war. does that phrase sounds familiar? think about, george w bush, the axis of evil, that was iran, iraq and north korea. of course, that was a prequel to war. what rishi sunak today is talking about is putting our defence industry in a war footing but he does not believe we are on the brink of war. this is about building up our defences and providing consistent support as far as this country is concerned to ukraine. some people in the defence world may think it feels rather different to when rishi sunak became prime minister in 2022. you may remember that the prime minister ordered what was called a data driven assessment of our commitment to ukraine. was it working, going through every single item at the time? downing street said, look, this prime minister is wholly committed to ukraine. where does this spending _

wholly committed to ukraine. where does this spending pledge _ wholly committed to ukraine. where does this spending pledge leave - does this spending pledge leave labour? fix, does this spending pledge leave labour? �* , , does this spending pledge leave labour? , ., , does this spending pledge leave labour? , .,, , labour? a pretty cautious response from labour- _ labour? a pretty cautious response from labour. the _ labour? a pretty cautious response from labour. the shadow _ labour? a pretty cautious response from labour. the shadow defence l from labour. the shadow defence secretary is saying that labour does want to hit the 2.5% target but he says it needs to be a fully funded plan. labouractually says it needs to be a fully funded plan. labour actually points out that in the recent read book for the budget, that showed that there had been a cut to between 2022—23, 20 4-25, a been a cut to between 2022—23, 20 4—25, a cut of £2.5 billion in defence spending and labour saying if they win the election, they would conduct in their first year in office a strategic defence review. labour has two ironclad commitments. one is to physical discipline. the other is to the defence of ukraine. rachel reeves and shadow chancellor, if she becomes chancellor, herjob well to be ensure those don't come into conflict and if they do, you can be pretty sure keir starmer will ensure that ukraine would come out top. ensure that ukraine would come out to -. . ~ ensure that ukraine would come out to -. ., ~' , ., ensure that ukraine would come out to, ., ~' , ., , . ensure that ukraine would come out to. ., , . let's get reaction to that from the former armed forces

minister, conservative mp for wells, james heappey. he was in thatjob between 2020 and 2024. he's a former major in the british army — he served in kabul and sangin in afghanistan, in northern ireland and basra in iraq. welcome to you. you got an early morning phone call from the prime minister to tell you with this news but 2.5% takes you back to where we were when labour left office in 2010. ~ , , ., ., were when labour left office in 2010. y , ., ., ., 2010. well, yes, other than that well is of course _ 2010. well, yes, other than that well is of course distorted - 2010. well, yes, other than that well is of course distorted by - 2010. well, yes, other than that| well is of course distorted by the expense of concurrent campaigns in iraq and afghanistan. that is no criticism necessarily itjust reflects back then, the military was extremely busy with two concurrent significant campaigns. really, as a comparison to when was the last time the uk spent that amount of money on a conventional war fighting capability rather than the stuff needed for counterinsurgency? you are probably going all the way back to the end of the cold war. the prime minister _ to the end of the cold war. the prime minister said today, i think this is the most dangerous time since the end of the cold war. in

the cold war, we spent 7% of gdp on defence and now we are onlyjust getting up to 2.5% by 2030. i defence and now we are only 'ust getting up to 2.5% by 2030. i would no further, getting up to 2.5% by 2030. i would go further, actually. _ getting up to 2.5% by 2030. i would go further, actually. i— getting up to 2.5% by 2030. i would go further, actually. i think - getting up to 2.5% by 2030. i would go further, actually. i think this - go further, actually. i think this is the most dangerous time notjust since the end of the cold war but since the end of the cold war but since the end of the cold war but since the 1960s. truth? since the end of the cold war but since the 1960s.— since the end of the cold war but since the 1960s._ at | since the 1960s. why is that? at the back end of — since the 1960s. why is that? at the back end of the _ since the 1960s. why is that? at the back end of the cold _ since the 1960s. why is that? at the back end of the cold war, _ since the 1960s. why is that? at the back end of the cold war, i - since the 1960s. why is that? at the back end of the cold war, i think - back end of the cold war, i think the understanding between the soviets and the west over the way that nuclear escalation, for example, would be managed against and was increasingly well understood, the reality is there are actors in the world now that are irrational and that we don't understand to the same degree. so i think that makes this very dangerous indeed. i think there is a discussion over the next ten or 20 years about how much further you need to go because let's be clear, what has been announced today, 2.5%, £75 billion by the end of the decade, that is to be celebrated. it is an incredible amount of money for the mod to receive but what that

will do is allow our current armed forces in their current shape and size to be more lethal, sustainable and more ready and therefore to be a more credible deterrent to our adversaries. if we want to grow those armed forces, in time, the government of the day will need to go further. government of the day will need to no further. �* .., , government of the day will need to no further. �* .. , ., ., go further. because he wanted it to be u- to go further. because he wanted it to be up to 396 — go further. because he wanted it to be up to 396 by _ go further. because he wanted it to be up to 396 by 2030? _ go further. because he wanted it to be up to 396 by 2030? yes, - go further. because he wanted it to be up to 3% by 2030? yes, if - go further. because he wanted it to be up to 396 by 2030? yes, if you i be up to 396 by 2030? yes, if you want to grow _ be up to 396 by 2030? yes, if you want to grow the _ be up to 396 by 2030? yes, if you want to grow the force, _ be up to 396 by 2030? yes, if you want to grow the force, there - be up to 396 by 2030? yes, if youj want to grow the force, there has be up to 396 by 2030? yes, if you i want to grow the force, there has to be more to come. but i think it is churlish, in my limited experience of politics there is a way is a demand or an instinct to say nothing is ever good enough. more, more, more. what has happened today is an incredibly brave decision. he could have announced 40 billion on hospitals, 20 billion on schools, 15 billion on roads or 17 billion of tax cuts but he has put it towards the defence of our nation and that is a difficult choice to have made and i think should be celebrated. what do you say to the voters who say, why are we spending 70 billion on this when you look at the state

of our schools? when you look at the state of the nhs? i of our schools? when you look at the state of the nhs?— state of the nhs? i think a lot of members of _ state of the nhs? i think a lot of members of the _ state of the nhs? i think a lot of members of the general - state of the nhs? i think a lot of members of the general public l state of the nhs? i think a lot of i members of the general public are increasingly aware of the threats to the uk interests that are emerging around the world and increasingly nearer to home. so the argument, they are making the argument to themselves. they are making the argument to themselves-_ themselves. forgive me for interrunting. _ themselves. forgive me for interrupting, showed - themselves. forgive me for| interrupting, showed british citizens be alarmed, then? ida. citizens be alarmed, then? no, because i _ citizens be alarmed, then? no, because i think _ citizens be alarmed, then? no, because i think what _ citizens be alarmed, then? iifr, because i think what they have to understand is the reason we hold conventional armed forces and a nuclear capability is to deter adversaries from taking us on. what we need our adversaries to see is that by investing in our stockpiles, investing in the things that get our armed forces into the battle, by stimulating industry to scale up their production so that they are able to resupply us at a quicker speed, all of that gives our adversaries a certainty that they won't manage to outlast the uk if they are ever stupid enough to take us on. ., , ~ ,

us on. how is the prime minister auoin to us on. how is the prime minister going to find _ us on. how is the prime minister going to find 75 _ us on. how is the prime minister going to find 75 billion _ us on. how is the prime minister going to find 75 billion quid? - us on. how is the prime minister going to find 75 billion quid? the conversation _ going to find 75 billion quid? iia: conversation i going to find 75 billion quid? "iia: conversation i had going to find 75 billion quid? i“i2 conversation i had with going to find 75 billion quid? ii2 conversation i had with him this morning was not long enough to go through the spreadsheet in full detail... what he said as it is fully funded, it comes from efficiencies, particularly i believe around the civil service recruitment freeze. ., , ., ., around the civil service recruitment freeze. ., ., , freeze. forgive me, you have been in olitics freeze. forgive me, you have been in politics nine — freeze. forgive me, you have been in politics nine years, _ freeze. forgive me, you have been in politics nine years, it's _ freeze. forgive me, you have been in politics nine years, it's long - politics nine years, it's long enough to know that efficiencies in the civil service won't get you to 75 billion quid. there is no spending review until after the next election. no department knows what it will have to spend, apart from the protected ones, health and education, and in order to meet the government's fiscal targets, it means mega cuts in the non—protected departments, even more so if you are spending 75 billion on defence? the prime spending 75 billion on defence? ii2 prime minister of the united kingdom has stood up today and said to the world, the british media, the british public, tomorrow the secretary of state will stand up in parliament and say this is how it will be funded. you could say, i don't believe you but i think that

is no way to conduct politics. if the prime minister tells me this can be funded in that way, i'm inclined to believe it. butjust to answer your point directly because i do think it is an important one for society at large. during the cold war, the relative spending on different government departments was totally different to what it is now. when we faced the next essential threat, defence was funded accordingly. in the 40 years since the end of the cold war, we have got rather used to health and schools and other wider public services being the priority. it may be in the future there that can no longer be the case. but the first response ability of government is the defence and security of the realm and i wonder who would ever blame the government for taking those difficult decisions of the threat demanded it. ii difficult decisions of the threat demanded it.— difficult decisions of the threat demanded it. ~ ., .,, , ., demanded it. if ukraine loses, what does that mean _ demanded it. if ukraine loses, what does that mean for _ demanded it. if ukraine loses, what does that mean for ukraine, - demanded it. if ukraine loses, what does that mean for ukraine, for - does that mean for ukraine, for europe and for us in the uk? catastrophe. you asked earlier

whether it was a turning point in this new round of gifting and know it is not, we have to be clear that, what this latest round of gifting does from the us and uk as it is not, we have to be clear that, what this latest round of gifting does from the us and uk visit keep ukraine in the fight, stabilises the front line, things like storm shadow from the uk, and atacms in the us allows the ukrainians to fire at things and the russian debts, ukrainians are two years away from being able to properly go on the defensive and this amazing, heroic volunteer army that populates the approaches has to be capable of advanced and sophisticated combined arms manoeuvre stop the west will have to train them in that but it will take time so this is no turning point, this isjust telling vladimir putin we have the patience and resolve to stay with them for some time yet. resolve to stay with them for some time et. , ,

time yet. president zelensky questioned _ time yet. president zelensky questioned why _ time yet. president zelensky questioned why the - time yet. president zelensky questioned why the us - time yet. president zelensky questioned why the us and l time yet. president zelensky i questioned why the us and uk time yet. president zelensky - questioned why the us and uk have not sent planes into the skies to protect here, and 2022 when it did exactly that to protect israel last saturday against missiles and drones, last saturday. he has a point, hasn't he?— drones, last saturday. he has a point, hasn't he? frankly, yes, and the difference, _ point, hasn't he? frankly, yes, and the difference, not _ point, hasn't he? frankly, yes, and the difference, not that _ point, hasn't he? frankly, yes, and the difference, not that this - point, hasn't he? frankly, yes, and the difference, not that this is - the difference, not that this is consolation to the ukrainian ministers or the ukrainian people but as the war in ukraine started, had nato got involved and shot down russian fighterjets, which is what would have been involved, that would have started world war iii. now, you might say that russia would have never launched the attack on the first place, if it thought that that was what would happen, but the calculation was very dangerous. it was incredibly febrile, and the war between russia and nato was what what everybody wanted to avoid loss giving the ukrainians the best as

possible, and what happened was an intervention last saturday, to stop a catalytic moment that would have almost certainly unleashed escalation that would have created a regional war in the middle east. just standing down at the next election, will miss politics? i will miss government, _ election, will miss politics? i will miss government, and _ election, will miss politics? i will miss government, and the - election, will miss politics? in ii. miss government, and the ability to, sometimes even the most minor things you think you can achieve in a day, actually is pretty significant and makes an enormous difference. what makes an enormous difference. what won't ou makes an enormous difference. what won't you miss? _ makes an enormous difference. what won't you miss? the _ makes an enormous difference. what won't you miss? the toxicity - makes an enormous difference. what won't you miss? the toxicity of - won't you miss? the toxicity of olitics. won't you miss? the toxicity of politics. there _ won't you miss? the toxicity of politics. there is _ won't you miss? the toxicity of politics. there is a _ won't you miss? the toxicity of politics. there is a default - politics. there is a default assumption, there will be people screaming at the tv that everything i'm saying is a lie or about my motivation but everybody in the house of commons irrespective of their view is guided by a sense that they want to make a difference to they want to make a difference to the community they represent, we might disagree over how to do it but i don't think the public sees,

always, that politicians of all persuasions are actually pretty good people who have volunteered themselves for public service and it is a pretty thankless environment. i will not miss quite how thankless it is, i will not miss how three people are with their opinions on twitter or x when they disagree but i will miss that ability to every now and then make a change, it might only affect one constituent as a result of some casework or it might be like when i flew to kyiv two weeks before the war to tell the then defence minister, and it is an amazing job i would recognise that mac recommend to everybody, but if we treat our politicians the way that we increasingly do, we will end up with the wrong type of politicians. thank ou for the wrong type of politicians. thank you for appearing — the wrong type of politicians. thank you for appearing on _ the wrong type of politicians. thank you for appearing on newsnight, james heappey. today started with the horrific

news of the death of five people attempting to cross the channel — one of them just a seven—year—old girl. it's thought around 300 people have been brought to the shore at dover today. in one day. in a moment we'll talk to nima moradi from iran, who made that journey across the water from france to the uk on a boat back in 2020. -- 2022. we'll ask him if the prospect of being flown to rwanda would have stopped him getting in one of those boats. it was late last night the government's rwanda bill passed after months of wrangling — which means anyone arriving on boats will be sent to the african country to have their asylum claims processed. sima's been taking a look at where exactly individuals are coming from and why they're risking their lives. the desperation is there for all to see.

as it was the only way

to make it to the uk, because i was looking for a safe place to have, like, a better life and to start a new life. i did thatjourney, as it was the only option. since 2018, nearly 120,000 people have come to the uk by small boat, making that life—threatening journey across the channel. we know they come from all parts of the world. some escaping war and persecution, others after a better life. but let's break it down by country. last year, almost 29,500 people made the trip in total. that's 16,000 fewer than the previous year. afghans made up the majority, more than 5500 of them, iranians and turks, second and third. the previous year, there were almost double the number of afghans travelling this way, but iranians were the top nationality. afghanistan was taken over by the taliban in 2021, with many fearing for their lives under their autocratic control.

iran has a repressive regime also, with people sometimes arrested for having certain political views. the government argues there are legal routes for asylum seekers which wouldn't fuel business for criminal gangs, who get paid to arrange the trips and risk the lives of those escaping. more than 6000 people have made the trip since the start of this year, in the first quarter, two—fifths of those arriving by small boat were from vietnam and afghanistan. five years ago, 39 vietnamese migrants died in a lorry trailer in essex. since then, many seems to have changed their methods, opting for small boats instead. anti—trafficking charities say that some of the people who travel illegally from vietnam want to make money to send back to their families, with uneven levels of wealth across their population and country. they say they tend to be trafficked by gangs into working in restaurants and nail bars here.

but the prospect of making more money for their loved ones is a big pull. last week the uk signed an agreement with vietnam to reduce illegal immigration. the proposals include sharing intelligence and tackling visa abuse. let's talk to nima moradi who's from iran. he made that perilous journey in a small boat across the channel in 2020. thank you for being on newsnight. why did you leave iran? i was thank you for being on newsnight. why did you leave iran?— why did you leave iran? i was an activist. why did you leave iran? i was an activist- i — why did you leave iran? i was an activist. i was _ why did you leave iran? i was an activist. i was criticising - why did you leave iran? i was an activist. i was criticising the - activist. i was criticising the government. i was criticising religion. i had a big group chat of my friends, who were being arrested, persecuted, and one of them was executed. that was a reason for me to leave my country. you executed. that was a reason for me to leave my country.— to leave my country. you went to turke , to leave my country. you went to turkey, greece, _ to leave my country. you went to turkey, greece, you _ to leave my country. you went to turkey, greece, you were - to leave my country. you went to | turkey, greece, you were granted asylum in greece. as you left there. and flew to france, why? let asylum in greece. as you left there. and flew to france, why?—

asylum in greece. as you left there. and flew to france, why? let me give ou an and flew to france, why? let me give you an example- _ and flew to france, why? let me give you an example- i— and flew to france, why? let me give you an example. i was _ and flew to france, why? let me give you an example. i was on _ and flew to france, why? let me give you an example. i was on an - and flew to france, why? let me give you an example. i was on an island, l you an example. i was on an island, somos, living in a tent without having access to electricity, without having access to hygiene facilities, if i wanted to get a meal, i had to queue for 6—7 hours, i had no future, i could not integrate to the society, i could not have a future, i was safe but i wasn't able to live there. mas not have a future, i was safe but i wasn't able to live there.- wasn't able to live there. was the uk alwa s wasn't able to live there. was the uk always your — wasn't able to live there. was the uk always your only _ wasn't able to live there. was the uk always your only option? - wasn't able to live there. was the | uk always your only option? when wasn't able to live there. was the l uk always your only option? when i left my country _ uk always your only option? when i left my country i — uk always your only option? when i left my country i was _ uk always your only option? when i left my country i was not _ uk always your only option? when i left my country i was not thinking i left my country i was not thinking about destination, but about being safe but when i was in greece i was thinking maybe to go to germany but when i was granted asylum i said that i can speak english, and i would go to england. let that i can speak english, and i would go to england.- that i can speak english, and i would go to england. that i can speak english, and i would aoto encland. , ., would go to england. let me show you andrew harding's _ would go to england. let me show you andrew harding's footage, _ would go to england. let me show you andrew harding's footage, talking - andrew harding's footage, talking about safety, as he was on that beach that morning. it was your fourth attempt, wasn't it, to get onto one of these boats. tell us

what it was like for you.- onto one of these boats. tell us what it was like for you. when you are there. — what it was like for you. when you are there. you _ what it was like for you. when you are there, you are _ what it was like for you. when you are there, you are so _ what it was like for you. when you are there, you are so desperate, l are there, you are so desperate, you're risking your life. you that it is dangerous. you know that you might die. but you want to gamble. because you have no other option. i cannot swim and i thought, maybe i will die. but, did i have another option to make it here? it was not a safe route. the only way for me to claim asylum was crossing the channel. ., ., ., ., , channel. you did have other options. you had asylum _ channel. you did have other options. you had asylum in _ channel. you did have other options. you had asylum in greece. _ channel. you did have other options. you had asylum in greece. i - channel. you did have other options. you had asylum in greece. i had - you had asylum in greece. i had as lum you had asylum in greece. i had asylum in _ you had asylum in greece. i had asylum in greece _ you had asylum in greece. i had asylum in greece but _ you had asylum in greece. i had asylum in greece but as - you had asylum in greece. i had asylum in greece but as i - you had asylum in greece. i iéc asylum in greece but as i mentioned, i was living in a tent. haifa asylum in greece but as i mentioned, i was living in a tent.— i was living in a tent. how much that ou i was living in a tent. how much that you pay _ i was living in a tent. how much that you pay the _ i was living in a tent. how much that you pay the smugglers? i i was living in a tent. how much - that you pay the smugglers? 3000. do ou mind that you pay the smugglers? 3000. do you mind me — that you pay the smugglers? 3000. do you mind me asking _ that you pay the smugglers? 3000. do you mind me asking where _ that you pay the smugglers? 22: do you mind me asking where you got the money from? mr; you mind me asking where you got the money from?— you mind me asking where you got the money from?_ how - you mind me asking where you got the money from?_ how many i you mind me asking where you got the i money from?_ how many were money from? my family. how many were on our money from? my family. how many were on your boat? —

money from? my family. how many were on your boat? around _ money from? my family. how many were on your boat? around 24. _ money from? my family. how many were on your boat? around 24. what - money from? my family. how many were on your boat? around 24. what do i money from? my family. how many were on your boat? around 24. what do you i on your boat? around 24. what do you remember of — on your boat? around 24. what do you remember of the _ on your boat? around 24. what do you remember of the sounds _ on your boat? around 24. what do you remember of the sounds and - on your boat? around 24. what do you remember of the sounds and smells i remember of the sounds and smells and the feeling? you make the first thing is trying to hide yourself from the police, you know, then you are walking to the— are walking to the beach,, it was september _ are walking to the beach,, it was september but _ are walking to the beach,, it was september but i _ are walking to the beach,, it was september but i remember i are walking to the beach,, it was september but i remember it i are walking to the beach,, it was | september but i remember it was are walking to the beach,, it was i september but i remember it was very cold, because we were trying to move, to keep ourselves warm, it was freezing. and you see all of the children, women, crying and hiding, and then you get closer to the beach, you start hearing the sound of the waves. and people are screaming. and you know it is not a game any more. but i don't know, you get somehow a power to go to it. you know that it is dangerous. you know thatis know that it is dangerous. you know that is a possibility that you could die, but you say, i make it all

right die. you do not think about something else in that moment. iiiinth something else in that moment. with the idea of being _ something else in that moment. with the idea of being sent to rwanda to claim asylum have stopped you from getting on that boat?— getting on that boat? when i was in greece, i getting on that boat? when i was in greece. i had _ getting on that boat? when i was in greece, i had friends _ getting on that boat? when i was in greece, i had friends who _ getting on that boat? when i was in greece, i had friends who are i getting on that boat? when i was in greece, i had friends who are from | greece, i had friends who are from england. when i wanted to come here, they said don't do it, because now they said don't do it, because now they are threatening to send people to another country, to rwanda. i said, no, they would not send people to rwanda, but i knew already there was a possibility, but that didn't stop me. was a possibility, but that didn't sto me. ., , ., ., ., was a possibility, but that didn't sto me. ., ,., ., ., stop me. now it is an act of law. do ou think stop me. now it is an act of law. do you think it — stop me. now it is an act of law. do you think it would _ stop me. now it is an act of law. do you think it would stop _ stop me. now it is an act of law. do you think it would stop people? i stop me. now it is an act of law. do j you think it would stop people? you see how many _ you think it would stop people? i'm, see how many people try to cross the channel last night?— channel last night? word of mouth will spread- _ channel last night? word of mouth will spread. people _ channel last night? word of mouth will spread. people have _ channel last night? word of mouth will spread. people have access i channel last night? word of mouth will spread. people have access to | will spread. people have access to information. _ will spread. people have access to information, you _ will spread. people have access to information, you know? _ will spread. people have access to information, you know? they i will spread. people have access to i information, you know? they already know and they will try to do it, because they say that it is not

going to apply to you.- because they say that it is not going to apply to you. what do you sa to going to apply to you. what do you say to those _ going to apply to you. what do you say to those people _ going to apply to you. what do you say to those people who _ going to apply to you. what do you say to those people who say, i going to apply to you. what do you say to those people who say, you i say to those people who say, you should not come to the uk illegally, it is not right, it is not fair. first, it is not a good idea to use the boat illegally but there is no other way. to be honest, i am not stupid to pay £3000 to a smuggler, then try to take a boat and cross then try to take a boat and cross the channel. if it was a safe route for me, if i could claim asylum, in another country for example, they had a centre where i could claim asylum, and then if my claim had been accepted i would go, and i would tell here safely, i would do that, you know, but because there wasn't any other option for me... and i was granted asylum. you waited to have the interview— and i was granted asylum. you waited to have the interview with _ and i was granted asylum. you waited to have the interview with the - and i was granted asylum. you waited to have the interview with the home l to have the interview with the home office and after two weeks you're asylum was granted. i office and after two weeks you're asylum was granted.— office and after two weeks you're asylum was granted. i was granted

as lum. asylum was granted. i was granted asylum- thank _ asylum was granted. i was granted asylum. thank you. _ asylum was granted. i was granted asylum. thank you. thank- asylum was granted. i was granted asylum. thank you. thank you i asylum was granted. i was granted asylum. thank you. thank you for| asylum. thank you. thank you for havin: asylum. thank you. thank you for having me- _ this is the moment a stalker held his ex—partner at gunpoint before taking her hostage for eight hours at her home in gwynedd. the woman's name is rhiannon bragg. her ex was eventually jailed back in 2020 and was released in february. on licence. in england and wales, 1.6 million people were the victims of stalking in the year to march 2023, according to the crime survey for england and wales, and yet in that same period, new analysis by the suzy lamplugh trust, out today, has found that only 1.7% of stalking cases reported to police resulted in a conviction. we're going to speak to rhiannon bragg now, an anti—stalking advocate and survivor. and kerri layton who was stalked on and off for 14 years. her stalker was found not guilty

of stalking and was issued with a life—long non—stalking molestation. thank you both for being with us. rhiannon first of all, if i could start with you, could you tell our audience a little bit about the patterns of behaviour of your acts that you experienced. 50 i patterns of behaviour of your acts that you experienced.— patterns of behaviour of your acts that you experienced. so i now know i was that you experienced. so i now know i was being — that you experienced. so i now know i was being stalked _ that you experienced. so i now know i was being stalked during _ that you experienced. so i now know i was being stalked during the i i was being stalked during the relationship. an example might be that i had been shopping with a friend and within the period of a few hours, he called six times and i was used to that. he was just checking i was ok but she pointed out it was unusual behaviour. it was only when the relationship ended that the stalking really ramped up but because i was slightly used to it, i didn't actually report anything for the first of the weeks and what made me go to the police first of all was the first time that he laid in wait and ambush to me wheni he laid in wait and ambush to me when i got back to our home, which was a rural property. there was no one else around. for me, i felt it was a step too far. i approached the

police, not knowing i had been in an abusive relationship, such is the nature of coercive control, and was told he would be arrested for harassment and menacing behaviour. i now know what i was reporting was textbook stalking and that is what it should have been recognised as. he was arrested three times over the next three weeks. he had no particular concerns about the bounds put on him by the police and the matter went to the cps at the end of that time, who had now admitted it was the wrong decision but failed to charge him. so it then meant there was a very angry stalker released back into the community with no bounds upon him and the stalking very much continued and increased in its intensity. as you pointed out, we lived in a rural place, shooting is a part of rural life and shooting is a part of rural life and shooting is something that we did together. he was a licensed firearms holder and had weapons at this time. i knew

it was getting worse. i didn't know what was going to happen but i knew something would happen. i had through this time kept reporting to the police but the final incident happened then four months after i had ended the relationship, when he held me at gunpoint overnight and ambushed me again when i came home. he used a gun i had used myself or clays before and that was the beginning of eight hours of absolute hell, quite frankly. it only came to an end because in his mind we were going to be back together, despite the stalking, despite having been threatened to be killed. there were a number of times that night i didn't think i would see my children again. he still had decided that was it, we would be together and he allowed me to go to a doctor's appointment he knew i already had. it was only when i went to that gp and i sat down and i can remember saying to them, i don't know what to do now, because i had only been to the police, the cps had been

involved and yet nothing had stopped him. he involved and yet nothing had stopped him-- he then — involved and yet nothing had stopped him.- he then said, _ involved and yet nothing had stopped him. 0k... he then said, duty involved and yet nothing had stopped him. {liic .. he then said, duty of him. 0k... he then said, duty of care, him. 0k... he then said, duty of care. they _ him. 0k... he then said, duty of care, they called _ him. 0k... he then said, duty of care, they called the _ him. 0k... he then said, duty of care, they called the police i him. 0k... he then said, duty of care, they called the police and l him. 0k... he then said, duty of| care, they called the police and it was at that stage he was arrested and went on to be sentenced in february. and went on to be sentenced in februa . ., ., ., ., ., february. rhiannon, i am going to brina in february. rhiannon, i am going to bring in kerri _ february. rhiannon, i am going to bring in kerri sitting _ february. rhiannon, i am going to bring in kerri sitting alongside i february. rhiannon, i am going to bring in kerri sitting alongside me| bring in kerri sitting alongside me in the studio. the man who stalked you, you met for the first time in 2004 and it carried on and off for 14 years? 2004 and it carried on and off for 14 ears? . , ~ 2004 and it carried on and off for 14 ears? ., , . ., 14 years? that is right. we met one niuht. 14 years? that is right. we met one night- there — 14 years? that is right. we met one night. there was _ 14 years? that is right. we met one night. there was a _ 14 years? that is right. we met one night. there was a party _ 14 years? that is right. we met one night. there was a party at - 14 years? that is right. we met one night. there was a party at the i night. there was a party at the house. — night. there was a party at the house. he _ night. there was a party at the house, he left that night and you would _ house, he left that night and you would think that would be it. but unfortunately, the next day, he was outside _ unfortunately, the next day, he was outside my— unfortunately, the next day, he was outside my house before i went to work _ outside my house before i went to work and — outside my house before i went to work and then he was outside my place _ work and then he was outside my place of— work and then he was outside my place of work when i went home. then he was _ place of work when i went home. then he was outside their again in the evening — he was outside their again in the evening a— he was outside their again in the evening. a bunch of flowers turned up. evening. a bunch of flowers turned up it_ evening. a bunch of flowers turned up it all— evening. a bunch of flowers turned up. it all happened quite quickly. then_ up. it all happened quite quickly. then gol— up. it all happened quite quickly. then got hold of my land line number and i then got hold of my land line number and i was _ then got hold of my land line number and i was so — then got hold of my land line number and i was so young at the time, i was 19, _ and i was so young at the time, i was 19, so— and i was so young at the time, i was 19, so i_ and i was so young at the time, i was 19, so i really tried to ignore a lot— was 19, so i really tried to ignore a lot of— was 19, so i really tried to ignore a lot of that. itjust was 19, so i really tried to ignore a lot of that. it just felt like weird — a lot of that. it just felt like weird behaviour but i did not have the skills—

weird behaviour but i did not have the skills or the voice to know what to do _ the skills or the voice to know what to do but — the skills or the voice to know what to do but it— the skills or the voice to know what to do. but it got worse and worse and worse — to do. but it got worse and worse and worse over that two, initial two year period — and worse over that two, initial two year period. fist and worse over that two, initial two year period-— year period. at any point were you thinkin: , year period. at any point were you thinking. god. _ year period. at any point were you thinking, god, this _ year period. at any point were you thinking, god, this is _ year period. at any point were you thinking, god, this is stalking? i year period. at any point were you thinking, god, this is stalking? at| thinking, god, this is stalking? at the time, i remembera thinking, god, this is stalking? at the time, i remember a family member telling— the time, i remember a family member telling me— the time, i remember a family member telling me to _ the time, i remember a family member telling me to go and report it, back then _ telling me to go and report it, back then i_ telling me to go and report it, back then ijust, — telling me to go and report it, back then. ijust, i honestly can't tell you the — then. ijust, i honestly can't tell you the shame that i had in me from meeting _ you the shame that i had in me from meeting this person and trusting them _ meeting this person and trusting them and — meeting this person and trusting them and then this happening. without— them and then this happening. without having such an impact... in some _ without having such an impact... in some ways, — without having such an impact... in some ways, i— without having such an impact... in some ways, i felt like i had kind of brought— some ways, i felt like i had kind of brought it — some ways, i felt like i had kind of brought it on somehow. as a young woman, _ brought it on somehow. as a young woman, i_ brought it on somehow. as a young woman, ijust felt like i didn't want — woman, ijust felt like i didn't want to— woman, ijust felt like i didn't want to make a fuss.- woman, ijust felt like i didn't want to make a fuss. i... that was the main thing _ want to make a fuss. i... that was the main thing for _ want to make a fuss. i... that was the main thing for me _ want to make a fuss. i... that was the main thing for me and - want to make a fuss. i... that was the main thing for me and that i want to make a fuss. i... that was the main thing for me and that is. the main thing for me and that is the main thing for me and that is the biggest regret because what happened next... go on. i remember some friends — happened next... go on. i remember some friends telling _ happened next... go on. i remember some friends telling him _ happened next... go on. i remember some friends telling him to _ happened next... go on. i remember some friends telling him to stop i happened next... go on. i remember some friends telling him to stop and | some friends telling him to stop and he didn't _ some friends telling him to stop and he didn't i— some friends telling him to stop and he didn't. i left the country in the night _ he didn't. i left the country in the night before i left the country, he was at _

night before i left the country, he was at my— night before i left the country, he was at my window peering in at me in bed with _ was at my window peering in at me in bed with my— was at my window peering in at me in bed with my then partner. that was an horrific— bed with my then partner. that was an horrific ordeal in itself without anything — an horrific ordeal in itself without anything else. but i left the country— anything else. but i left the country and then they still had my telephone — country and then they still had my telephone number. so there was a lot of, telephone number. so there was a lot of. im _ telephone number. so there was a lot of, i'm skipping over a lot of detail— of, i'm skipping over a lot of detail here but there was a lot similar— detail here but there was a lot similar to _ detail here but there was a lot similar to rhiannon, where there is a lot tom _ similar to rhiannon, where there is a lottom it— similar to rhiannon, where there is a lot to... it ramped up and very fast— a lot to... it ramped up and very fastand— a lot to... it ramped up and very fast and became very aggressive very fast and became very aggressive very fast and _ fast and became very aggressive very fast and became very aggressive very fast and became very aggressive very fast and became very threatening very fast — fast and became very threatening very fast i— fast and became very threatening ve fast. ., ., ., ,, ., very fast. i want to talk about these super _ very fast. i want to talk about these super low _ very fast. i want to talk about these super low conviction i very fast. i want to talk about | these super low conviction rate very fast. i want to talk about i these super low conviction rate in terms of those cases that are reported to the police, barely any according to the suzy lamplugh trust and figures today result in a conviction. rhiannon, yours did. when... he was jailed for four years, he is now out on licence. recently, you are petrified and

talking to journalists about how petrified you are about him being released. how does it feel now, to know that he is out? it released. how does it feel now, to know that he is out?— released. how does it feel now, to know that he is out? it is... we are totall , know that he is out? it is... we are totally. totally _ know that he is out? it is... we are totally, totally reliant _ know that he is out? it is... we are totally, totally reliant on _ know that he is out? it is... we are totally, totally reliant on the i totally, totally reliant on the authorities to keep us and others safe from someone who i feel is a dangerous offender. he does have, as you said, he has robust licence conditions he has to adhere to that i feel he is a conditions he has to adhere to that ifeel he is a high risk individual. ifeel he is a high risk individual. i try and lead my life as normally as possible to stop it will never be completely normal again. something like this doesn't leave you. the trauma is very much still with us. but to not do that, to not be able to lead your life normally is an incredibly destructive thing and it is something that happened whilst i was being stalked. x�*t�*aur is something that happened whilst i was being stalked.— was being stalked. your world gets smaller and _ was being stalked. your world gets smaller and smaller. _ was being stalked. your world gets smaller and smaller. kerri, - was being stalked. your world gets smaller and smaller. kerri, in i was being stalked. your world gets smaller and smaller. kerri, in your| smaller and smaller. kerri, in your case he was found not guilty of stalking and given a lifelong

non—molestation order. stalking and given a lifelong non-molestation order. restraining order. i non-molestation order. restraining order- i beg — non-molestation order. restraining order- i beg your — non-molestation order. restraining order. i beg your pardon. _ non-molestation order. restraining order. i beg your pardon. is - non-molestation order. restraining order. i beg your pardon. is quite i order. i beg your pardon. is quite rare, order. i beg your pardon. is quite rare. they — order. i beg your pardon. is quite rare, they don't _ order. i beg your pardon. is quite rare, they don't hand _ order. i beg your pardon. is quite rare, they don't hand them i order. i beg your pardon. is quite rare, they don't hand them out i rare, they don't hand them out easily — rare, they don't hand them out easily you _ rare, they don't hand them out easily. you can get five or ten year~ — easily. you can get five or ten year~ i— easily. you can get five or ten year~ itook— easily. you can get five or ten year. i took it to the magistrates' court _ year. i took it to the magistrates' court and — year. i took it to the magistrates' court and despite them telling me... what _ court and despite them telling me... what was _ court and despite them telling me... what was that like? it court and despite them telling me... what was that like?— what was that like? it was almost as traumatic as — what was that like? it was almost as traumatic as having _ what was that like? it was almost as traumatic as having a _ what was that like? it was almost as traumatic as having a stalker - what was that like? it was almost as traumatic as having a stalker in i what was that like? it was almost as traumatic as having a stalker in the l traumatic as having a stalker in the first place — traumatic as having a stalker in the first place. the criminaljustice system — first place. the criminaljustice system is _ first place. the criminaljustice system is not geared in favour of actual_ system is not geared in favour of actual victims. system is not geared in favour of actualvictims. i system is not geared in favour of actual victims. i don't believe that i was _ actual victims. i don't believe that i was treated properly during that process — i was treated properly during that process. there was evidence that was lost. process. there was evidence that was lost there _ process. there was evidence that was lost. there was evidence destroyed in front_ lost. there was evidence destroyed in front of— lost. there was evidence destroyed in front of me, where he turned up atone _ in front of me, where he turned up atone of— in front of me, where he turned up atone of my— in front of me, where he turned up at one of my events. as a musician, i had _ at one of my events. as a musician, i had to— at one of my events. as a musician, i had to self— at one of my events. as a musician, i had to self cancel and go on as an alias _ i had to self cancel and go on as an alias which — i had to self cancel and go on as an alias which was really traumatic in my career— alias which was really traumatic in my career as a singer. they made their— my career as a singer. they made their way— my career as a singer. they made their way to — my career as a singer. they made theirway to an my career as a singer. they made their way to an event and got back stage _ their way to an event and got back stage at— their way to an event and got back stage. at this point, there was already— stage. at this point, there was already a — stage. at this point, there was already a warrant out for his arrest — already a warrant out for his arrest. they failed to turn up in time _ arrest. they failed to turn up in time to— arrest. they failed to turn up in time to arrest him. so he escaped. they— time to arrest him. so he escaped. they even— time to arrest him. so he escaped. they even destroyed evidence there and then— they even destroyed evidence there

and then in— they even destroyed evidence there and then in front of me and said, oh, and then in front of me and said, oh. its— and then in front of me and said, oh. its not— and then in front of me and said, oh, it's not like a detected programme where we canjust scan it for fingerprints. programme where we canjust scan it forfingerprints. i programme where we canjust scan it for fingerprints. i was thinking, there _ for fingerprints. i was thinking, there is— for fingerprints. i was thinking, there is a — for fingerprints. i was thinking, there is a natural warrant out for this person's arrest. i then had to do my— this person's arrest. i then had to do my own — this person's arrest. i then had to do my own detective work for months to find _ do my own detective work for months to find him _ do my own detective work for months to find him and get him arrested and then it _ to find him and get him arrested and then it was _ to find him and get him arrested and then it was two years almost to take it to the _ then it was two years almost to take it to the criminal, through the criminat— it to the criminal, through the criminaljustice system. criminal 'ustice system. thank you ve criminaljustice system. thank you very much. — criminaljustice system. thank you very much, kerri. _ criminaljustice system. thank you very much, kerri. kerri _ criminaljustice system. thank you very much, kerri. kerri layton, - very much, kerri. kerri layton, thank you for being with us and sharing your experiences. rhiannon bragg, thank you also forjoining us from your home. thank you for your time. and if you've been affected by anything we've just been talking about, there is a range of organisations and websites that can offer you advice and support. you can find them listed on the bbc�*s actionline website at bbc.co.uk/actionline. the best of northern music has been honoured tonight at the very first northern music awards in manchester's albert hall. both rising stars and household names were there — one of whom wrote

one of the definitive songs of the early 19905 manchester.